<TITLE: African Development History 2
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: political history
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD26B
NOTES: seminar includes presentation USEMP11C (USEMD26A and USEMP11A-B are part of the same course)

RECORDING DURATION: 35 min 55 sec

RECORDING DATE: 10.4.2007

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 16

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 10

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff and research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

BS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French, English (Cameroon); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Oromo (Ethiopia); ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bulgarian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

NS13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> yeah oh yeah that's you right of course sorry so we have to do something about that but we'll talk privately [okay yeah] </S1>
<S11> [yeah i wanted to talk to you] because i </S11>
<S1> i thought so yeah [like] </S1>
<S11> [i] missed the first one and </S11>
<S1> five times </S1>
<S11> no [just one @but@] </S11>
<S1> [@@] we'll talk afterwards <S11> [okay] </S11> [okay] don't don't step in her shoes she's a hard worker she's had a nice er nice er diary also and everything but that's not enough you have to come here so those of you who have missed twice and you can check it from the list now you have to come next time and the time after that and @today@ otherwise there will be trouble okay and please keep in mind that the deadline for the er essay is also approaching slowly and i said last week already about four weeks from now but without any more of that let's get going we've got two presentations today , first <NAME S11> and <NAME S6> which will be speaking about botswana and the success story of economic development policies in africa does anybody know by the way what this can anybody read what it says here </S1>
<SS> <FOREIGN> [pula] </FOREIGN> </SS>
<S1> <FOREIGN> [pula] </FOREIGN> yeah and anybody know what it means </S1>
<S6> the currency </S6>
<S1> [yes and] </S1>
<S6> [it's the botswana's] currency i don't know </S6>
<S1> water <S6> [oh] </S6> [that's] one sort of famous thing people always find interesting about botswana th- their their currency er the word for their currency in batswana language is actually the word for water also because it's a desert country so it's a very valuable thing but there are other very valuable things in botswana as well and we'll hear about them today i'm sure , after that one we'll have <NAME BS7> er who will be talking about the possibility of the developmental state in cameroon please the floor is yours </S1>

<PRESENTATION USEMP11C by S11>

<S1> alright good thank you very much <APPLAUSE> mhm er what was your er kind of approach to to kind of integrating the two presentations they were both very interesting but i would like to hear from you er a bit <S6> [er] </S6> [something] about what you thought how they speak to each other </S1>
<S6> erm er first was talking about er i was wondering about er botswana's economic developments and <NAME S11> went erm was asking if er she wanted to see this development from er the international side erm to have a diff- because my approach is quite internal botswana er her approach was based on the intes- international organisation I-F-Is and other things </S6>
<S11> yeah and also erm i didn't mention it in the presentation but erm that book by erm by stiglitz he talks about exactly about those international institutions and he's asking the question why is botswana so successful and he's saying exactly because they didn't listen to what erm the international institutions said e- exactly because they took a a whole different approach that as as sort of as an alternative to what was offered by neo-liberalism (xx) but at the same time there's there is this problem that to some extent erm we just read an article today that to some extent it's also their curse because because of the fact that they're sort of more developed than other african nations and they're considered a a middle s- er a middle-income erm economy they do not benefit from from funding from those institutions and they're saying yeah we do understand that other people maybe need more funding but we also need it we do- we also have problems so that's another thing </S11>
<S1> d- i i just want to know from you i mean did did you feel that it became er clear to you or that you are fully understanding it that's a very interesting point in which <NAME S11> just reiterated that that stiglitz basically says that well i mean do you know maybe who joseph stiglitz is who is joseph stiglitz </S1>
<S11> [erm he's political economist] </S11>
<S6> [he's economist] </S6>
<S5> [former head of the world bank yeah] </S5>
<S6> he's nobel prize [winner] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] <S11> yeah </S11> yeah okay he's known to be very sort of critical but he's anyway the former head of the world bank <SS> [@@] </SS> [so it's interesting] interesting opinion that he says the (xx) hasn't basically er got anything to do with the success of botswana but do you understand why why (is that) </S1>
<S6> mhm </S6>
<S12> i'd <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i] have a question erm i mean you said that er botswana erm refused to take over the the S-A-Ps of of er erm of the IMF or the world bank because er they were one of the reasons were that that they were more developed than other african countries before <S11> mhm-hm </S11> and one of the reason er you said er that they were more developed than other african countries was erm that er the british didn't have that much influence erm on post-colonial structures <S6> mhm-hm </S6> or institutions so i ask myself why would britain pay er 50 per cent of the budget if they have no influence on the post-colonial institutions <S6> mhm-hm </S6> er in the 1960s </S12>
<S6> yeah that's not in the same time actually er at the beginning er botswana was undeveloped there was there were really nothing that er i just read that there were only one er one er er industry er how do you say it <S11> [industry] </S11> [there wasn't] no yeah there was really nothing in the in the country er well about the er IMF and the world bank er there was like an evolution because at the beginning the er the world bank aid was not conditional and then botswana said and botswana was developing in the 60s botswana had the most er comparing with their population had the most out of every peop- of every country in the world that's er as stiglitz show in his book in the 80s actually I-F-Is were lending money cond- with conditions and and botswana understood that this condition was open market and it was not good for them and that's why they (break) <S11> mhm-hm </S11> , and they are really like mhm all the botswana's history is is is marked with pragmatism and it was each time you know it's if it's if it's if it's worse it's they had to they er they kind of make they want they are ready to er <S11> [mhm] </S11> [to have] an agreement but if it's not in their interests they are they're gonna say no er for instance er the world bank was helping er botswana in the 60s and er when de beers you know it was producing a lot of diamonds and they were making m- lots of money in the in the in the mines of botswana and there was like this er there was a lawyer from the world bank who came and said you have to make a new agreement with er de beers because they're making lots of money and you aren't and de beers er had heard some er heard some news about this and went to the world bank and went to the world bank and said that the lawyer was not speaking er er with the world bank erm you know it was in the in the behalf of the world bank and the gov- the botswana government say it's that's why we listen to him and it's always about pragmatism i think <S11> [mhm] </S11> [in] in the case of botswana </S6>
<S11> can i just add [something] <S6> [yeah] sure </S6> yeah the other thing is that the problem is that other african countries they had huge debts to commercial banks during the debt crisis and what the what the IMF and the world bank did is they were financing them to cover those commercial banks but the financing was under the condition that they implement the structural adjustment programmes <S2> mhm </S2> whereas th- this didn't happen with with botswana so the other countries were sort of pressured it wasn't even their their option to to choose yeah </S11>
<S2> er you were asking about the british <S12> [yeah] </S12> [it was er] there was a- also the regional game because south africa at the time was er the power-house of the of the south and er er and and erm er er britain wanted to keep er botswana er away from the er direct influence by by south africa </S2>
<S12> okay </S12>
<NS13> sorry di- did you say er they took the structural adjustment programme or the other (xx) programme that the IMF [offered] </NS13>
<S6> [erm] it depends on the time actually erm <S11> yeah </S11> it's there's [er] </S6>
<S11> [yeah] the thing is they were they had sort of a different erm different relation with the IMF because they were erm with other countries because they they needed funding so much more than them erm the IMF would just say you do this and this and that whereas botswana was already developed economically to some extent like some of the reforms that they were requirement requiring from the other countries botswana had already been through that like years ago and therefore like with them it just didn't go in the same way as as [it did] </S11>
<NS13> [i guess] i'm just trying to er trace the past you know like the you know like they have these (xx) natural resources from diamonds to <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [oil and] and they all prospered during the 60s and 70s <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [and actually] er comparing the same currency (rates) with the US and <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [and] britain and so <S11> [yeah] </S11> [er] for example er nigeria had the same even higher currency to the US dollar in 1978 before they adopted this structural adjus- er adjustment programme <S11> yeah </S11> actually it destroyed their economy and i'm thinking those prove if actually the er the country is a success story as many people claim but er er before these african countries that have already established er economic programmes <S11> mhm-hm </S11> er implemented er the structural adjustment thing that the IMF (xx) <S6> mhm-hm </S6> they were actually well-off if not politically but econo- economically they were actually er making some kind of progress <S11> mhm-hm </S11> and if botswana comes out as a country that actually kind of rejected the programme <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and] still today is <S6> [yeah] </S6> [you know] actually it is still doing well and it does prove a sensation <S11> [yeah] </S11> [that] it was kind of a failed experiment on these you know african countries in the 80s and it's actually <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [causing] some problem er problems they they have now (xx) if if that is true and it's the thing about er preserved er structures that were in place before <S6> [yeah] </S6> [the] colo- colonial stuff and there was not much interference in in the private domain of of because when the society's <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [structures] were preserved and so they kept they developed all those things and and you know so in those words what i've been thinking of about what the same thing about the er position i have with er on mozambique and and this thing about erm an alternative to globalisation (xx) <NAME S8> spoke about about you know these chiefs and africans actually being allowed to develop their own social systems and see if that will work for them it's something (xx) develop the system [(xx)] </NS13>
<S11> [mhm-hm] </S11>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S14> erm i i would actually like to re-focus the di- discussion a little bit and push it push you further er about the question of er HIV AIDS <SS> [mhm] </SS> [i mean] we have here a country with a population of 1.7 million and the the er infection rate in adult population is 38 per cent <SS> mhm-hm </SS> i mean you can't pass that fact how does it affect the national economy it has very clear consequences to life-expectancy it has very clear @consequences@ <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [to er dependen-] dependency ratios i mean where how does it claim to this picture we can't just just pass it and talk <S6> [erm] </S6> [about these] you know <S6> yeah </S6> macro-level economic [processes] <S6> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S6> i mean where is it </S14>
<S6> yeah but the the fact is botswana is a country (xx) that there are the er the er first the er HIV pr- er issue is quite new for these countries in the in the 90s in the 90s it was not about you know it was they knew that it exist but they didn't even the (xx) didn't care they it was really it was really not threat now there is there is like a kind of advertisement everywhere and there is like these kind of guides to er to make people know what about HIV and the fact is that botswana is quite of a caring s- a care- caring society they knew that they know that they don't have lots of m- of of er welfare like hospitals and everything but there is like er they try to they they they do their their best i think er with their with their like er with their level of er welfare system er the the thing is that it it sure is threatening for the economy and er even for the population because 30 per cent is really is really dangerous but er well everything er everything i've read er every paper i've read about this er is that it remains that botswana has er they want to go for they want to to see you know the to be in the future and to take it to tackle to tackle this problem it's not about lef- leaving this problem and er like hoping that er these people won't be won't be touched by this i think that it erm i think it's er it's more and more erm wealthy it's a co- a middle-income country i think they have the mean with the new er as the la- laboratory lets the government er do the three-therapy er and (xx) er you know like all this er they don't have to give (xx) money to the labo- laboratory er i think it's possible for instance in debswana company er maybe it's one of the it's er it's not everywhere but er all the employees er who are actually there are they they have subsidies coming to their family and they're not like fired er as some er in in maybe in some other places i think there is er the beginning of a caring system this is what is important , yeah anyway i know it's really really difficult and it's really really straining the society but they have to go on with what they have and i think that's what they're doing </S6>
<S1> i'm yeah in a way really glad you picked this this example because it's it's quite fascinating erm , it it's fascinating because there's so many kind of things seemingly going on in botswana that that don't really sort of fit into any any ideas that we have about what happens in africa it's it's like it cuts against all kinds of ideas like for example also the fact that they were completely surrounded by countries which were more or less at war internally i- i- in the 80s or in the 70s at least er and you know i mean south africa was was sort of ge- starting to get quite violent internally and namibia already had a war a guerrilla war and zimbabwe had one and they were going strong , erm but i think one mhm it it it's also i mean there is not so much writing about zimba- er about botswana as you said yourself actually i i think it has probably to do with the fact that it is such a successful kind of sort of m- relatively peaceful case that there isn't really so much interesting research to be done about a society where there isn't this sort of huge open conflict and kind of really some big fissures that one can (xx) study <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [or] or which there is also a big demand to study there is not a lot research done but you have to remember also that it's a very small country and after all relatively small economy , but erm i'm just trying to to come to this erm , one really interesting thing that seems to sort of come out when one reads a little bit between the lines from especially your presentation <NAME S6> which is this that they erm they didn't seem to really e- ever do anything really drastic sort of really radical they were all sort of going for the <S6> [yeah] </S6> [kind of] this compromise option and <S11> mhm-hm </S11> and i i find that really interesting that you would say that erm and i'd like to sort of see that a little or i'd like to hear from you how you think that relates to the fact that they they had these er quite sort of perhaps untypical old leaders emerging because <S6> [yeah] </S6> [they] they had the first president was a chief so he already basically was <S6> [mhm] </S6> [up there] and then he was </S1>
<S6> yeah his [grandfather was the head yeah yeah i think it's] </S6>
<S1> [su- suddenly the head of state and this] continues also </S1>
<S6> yeah it's quite quite special <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] er i think it's it's really erm something like they have their in their in their blood they want to every day every time the the it's about practi- for pragmatism <S1> mhm </S1> er the everyt- one for instance where during the independence there were many white people in er in er botswana <S1> mhm </S1> and they keep all the white people in their place in the government in the new government because they were they were they were skilled and had er the way to er to put er to er to put some people in in er studies they went er they they send people to er to england and then they they bring them back and they were skilled and that was that was very interesting and maybe because there were no clash because botswana wasn't interesting in er in the colonial era it was just the way for the train to go to to cairo and </S6>
<S11> mhm-hm </S11>
<S1> yeah of course this this sort of idea that they never really did anything drastic er i mean it also kind of mhm is it it's one way of of characterising the role of botswana in relation to its neighbour s- apartheid south africa </S1>
<S6> yeah [they have to] </S6>
<S1> [and they never] did anything drastic meaning they didn't have any problems with [apartheid at least they didn't say it openly @@] </S1>
<S6> [oh oh yeah oh okay yeah but they ha-] they had to they're this is a landlocked country actually they don't they do that they're stuck with south africa for instance they didn't like the the er the regime of er the apartheid but they had to have links because it was about economy and without economy the country were was in big trouble and then they still had links while er i know that the er seretse khama was married with a white woman and that was a big it was a big problem a big issue because it was not for apartheid people it was not really nice but there were still ec- it was still economy and the same for bo- for zimbabwe and namibia it was always to have good relationship with your neighbourhood and it's still today because there are new i know that there's new er natural parks between namibia and through zambia to er to tanzania i think there is this big park between tanzania and </S6>
<S1> but that kind of sort of erm maybe raises the last sort of thinking point that is not necessarily a question to answer but also in in the context of what <NAME S14> told i think it's important to keep in mind about current issues if they if they have this long history of n- never really doing anything drastic are they as a society and as a political system er you know prepared to to deal with with this HIV AIDS epidemic because it seems to be something that is just in in society very drastic <SS> mhm </SS> and can they you know can they do what's necessary without being drastic it's it's just a thinking point [it's not a particular point of view i have about it] </S1>
<S6> [yes yeah yeah] i think today it's that the (xx) issue is even in out of even in europe or @you know in america@ and nobody but it's really it's really difficult for anyone even er if there is not er social security it's even difficult in develop- developed countries to get er three-therapy and everything as the issue is difficult in er all countries it's difficult to er to er to cover this er this situation in africa i think that today since the since the new millennium there is a a big reflection about this they re- they they reflect that's it they reflect they don't they try to have advertisement but there is not like real er but the problem is that if you have a drastic er measure it can have some er social issues er on this because it could like struggle the it could er break some social links it's i think ye- yeah i know it's a difficult issue but i think that er it's really difficult the gov- the best thing today is that the government is is is starting to make like three-therapies it's still you have to pay still but it's not a lot but for er for people who are very poor it's not it's not possible and then they they try to they try to make some prevention and some er differentiation between the rich the er the middle class the botswana middle class can afford er three-therapy and not not the really poor and yeah and there's the fact is that there are many people from bo- er zimbabwe who were who have this problem who has immigrated to botswana and this moment and this (xx) big inflation and the economic like backlash in the zimbabwe and it's still er and there were like this problem because they have to make special advertisements for the zimbabwean refugees because they're not botswana's people is know know what is the problem they are in the school every- the the school the schooling er rate is 90 per cent then all the children know what it's about but er not the immigrants actually [now there is prevention] </S6>
<S1> [i think i think] we have to to cut it short here but i'm sorry but er <S6> yeah </S6> i think we're overtime already @already sorry about it@ okay well this was really interesting er example of how they did it and how they got their balance right of course keeping in mind they were incredibly lucky as well i mean all those <S6> [yeah] </S6> [diamonds] perhaps @in some way@ we'll see how they try to do it in cameroon in the next presentation an interesting case perhaps also to compare now , thank you very much </S1>

<PRESENTATION by BS7, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S1> yes let's discuss <SS> [@@] </SS> [okay we still have er] almost 10 minutes yeah we started a little bit late so let's get going anyone . yes </S1>
<S5> yeah in the light of your discussion (i'm interested to see) where er (xx) what is your notion and view about democracy </S5>
<BS7> i would be honest to say that for me democracy should be very broad democracy should be what , the freedom to to to say and do what you like so long as that freedom does not violate the freedom of another person that is liberally very broadly ribel- liberally understood i would like it so but then a- a- as maybe a student of anthropology and in this context maybe that's why you are confused i am exposing you elements that do show you contradictory understanding to what i hold so are we going to understand democracy according to how i hope it should be or how it is being practiced that is my question </BS7>
<P:06>
<S1> <NAME S8> </S1>
<S8> erm thank you , er you also say there is no univers- no universal model of democracy as such er i totally agree but i need a bit of reflection on then what does it imply to attach certain conditionalities in in order to advance democracy in a country and how does it you have talked of course in relation to cameroon er how does it generally er fit into our discussion of this universal model of democracy another point , is okay in in relation to what you have just said okay democracy is being practiced this way what is going on is the way i summarised it and a president of cameroon calls it advanced democracy er , okay there is dis- discrepancy between practice <BS7> and [theory] </BS7> [and what] we think should be theoretically but does that mean really er anything in terms of taking it for granted the way it is practiced or do we have any room for challenging the practice itself with this theory the good model of democracy if if i can get a chance to to ask the previous presen- presenters er to er say a little bit of where the the botswanan model fits in terms of er its development history does it go with modernisation or is it better explained in terms of dependency </S8>
<S11> mhm </S11>
<S6> <COUGH> er what do mean by dependency </S6>
<S8> [er presented by] </S8>
<S11> [dependency theory] <S6> oh </S6> yeah erm , i would say that it's , i would say that it's like a mixture of both theories because someone said erm like maybe maybe in the beginning erm dependency theory talks about how how developing nations they're not they're not able because of their different (path) they're not able to develop in the same way as as the west and therefore they they talk about this take-off point where a developing nation first should re- reach a certain level of industrialisation and whatever and then they can start developing according to the western model and i i would say that initially maybe botswana was following that trend in the perspective of dependency but after that i would say they (xx) more under modernisation because it it's balancing really well with the with the western perspective and in in its relation with the with the financial institutions </S11>
<BS7> okay now er to answer whether because of the fact that it is practiced differently from what we think my problem is that , when i was trying to put up the present- the argument of this presentation was that if we are advancing donor conditionality on the basis of er democratisation and this slide just showed you somebody begging for NGOs to go and beg people to vote for example because of the fact that they realised that people are disillusioned by democracy my question is does it is it necessary to continue the pretence that democracy as we understand it is working then we w- it's not bad to emphasise demo- democracy but we should not emphasise er aid for example on the basis of democracy as we understand it we should unde- emphasise democracy on different totally different grounds we could emphasise that countries democratise on the basis of humanitarian or moral que- er er moral implications but if it's on the basis of development it has no follow , that's my problem we cannot keep on emphasising that okay i don't give you er aid if you do not democratise and this person organises elections and these elections he wins or even if it's the opposition who wins the basic expectations of development and broadly defining terms of freedoms and and everything do not follow so there is n- for me there is no point for us to keep emphasising then p- particular practice of democracy as following aid we should not say that aid should follow democracy rather we should begin to emphasise democracy on other grounds maybe we talk we should change it we should talk er democracy on different grounds that i- i'm not saying that we cannot we shouldn't talk about democracy as we see it democracy a- the good democracy as you to use your term but we should talk about it on different grounds not on the grounds of er development because development here is non-existent </BS7>
<S8> but don't you think it it somehow conditions at least the way they try to to to deal with development er if they are given aid regardless of what is being practiced in that country would it not give a a bit of leverage for even more dictatorship </S8>
<BS7> th- th- th- the point is they should give they could give aid on any grounds democracy is not it is not only the state i showed you that this state-centrist approach my my contention is that we we focus too much on the state i just showed you how the political elite understand and practice democracy they invent and reinvent new new understandings and new new ways to capture democracy i showed you how local people understood democracy they said democracy is your ability to give them money for their votes and and this <SU> @@ </SU> and rice and cloth so in in response to you do we go to these people or do we keep focusing on the state do we go do we emphasise democracy as built by the citizens themselves because what you say is as if the absence of democracy is a is a serious or is the surely the fault of the state or the government </BS7>
<S8> by implication yeah </S8>
<BS7> yeah but it's not necessarily so if i go by what i have here on this slide </BS7>
<S1> very very interesting really that's that's definitely something that would have been nice to talk about a little bit longer i i'm i'm very much reminded er of by this this discussion about so what what is this democracy thing in cameroon about what what actually mbembe was himself <BS7> [good uh-huh] </BS7> [(xx)] what he writes and one of his main main sort of thesis is that the kind of grand display of <BS7> [of power] </BS7> [state state] power which is like okay big parties and big [happenings and he likes (xx)] </S1>
<BS7> [and orgies of] er food and <S1> yeah [exactly and] </S1> [and sex] and [orgies which which are] </BS7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> absolutely yes exactly the domination also of the body that this is this is not just er that's just one side of the two-sided coin it is very much the participation of the people in this empty <BS7> [empty] </BS7> [s-] spectacle which creates the situation er and the the the result is is not necessarily just this sort of domination from the <BS7> [er] </BS7> [top] to the below but actually this is what mutual as he calls it mutual zombification <SS> [@@] </SS> [(xx)] actually both are left left powerless both the people are left powerless and the </S1>
<BS7> the top is always aware that its its power <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [is] merely a spectre it's a it's <S1> [mhm] </S1> [it's] it it performs this power mainly to remind the people of the fact that it has some power but it is aware it's er it's for it's like a fetish if we can use it that way it's it's not there the the real power does not lie in itself and it is aware of that it is aware that it does not have power over those people but it performs every day er repeat performances of this power and on the other hand the people as well feel as if they behave as if they always want to be dominated upon that's what's funny that the people give you the impression as if they want always to be dominated upon they always want to be suppressed they always want you to offer them there is this whole thesis i think it tries to capture in the post-colony is that people are always look- the africans are always looking up upon somebody to come up to play the role of the grandmaster something of of that sort and somehow i think that is right it's not totally right but that is somehow right </BS7>
<S1> and what's this what's this this characterism of or characteristic of this situation of the mutual zombification in in terms of the future outlook what what is </S1>
<BS7> i think you you [would have] </BS7>
<S1> [and there there's] a one there's a one line a thing he says which i think is a good quote i don't know </S1>
<BS7> e- e- e- i i i think i draw on on biya somehow to disagree with him because , i- if you look at the history of er the post-colony he takes just the the the the the perspective in which er this zombification is constructed he he ado- adopts both top and down biya adopts top and down as well but biya looks at it i- in in in a more what he calls the (xx) what he tries to capture as the (xx) state in which both er there is a e- e- an empirical feeling of domination a- as a complicity of the two but there is also m- more evidence to point that somehow the people are powerless somehow somehow i- it is so but er mbembe's picture is to show that both have nearly equal power and there are some sort of er coming into complicity to to to to to to do and undo whatever there i- it is to to be done in these grand orgies that he he sum- describes </BS7>
<S1> do you agree with mbembe that this is a situation that is very volatile that violence is basically inbuilt into this </S1>
<BS7> i i think that violence is the prime mover of the post-colony for sure i just tried to show but i didn't have time in this slide on the uni- in the university for example violence is is more it's not mainly this physical it's about this violent psychological trauma you experience every day as a university student i was in a campus in which i can't say i there are names i cannot call for example there are names cannot call there are some names i can call and and say anything about but there are people and i felt somehow constrained somehow small within within me there there were many things i would have loved to say and can't say so you feel violated every day somehow you are like this example shows the local people are complicit er within somehow they are not so er but mbembe puts it as if it's always the case that both are are consent to to to to to to the situation </BS7>
<S1> well unfortunately we have used er all the free space we had today for for open discussion but at least we we had it i also have to run off (xx) as well thanks for coming </S1>
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