<TITLE: Democratisation in the 3rd World
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: sociology
EVENT TYPE: ISSS seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD100
NOTES: partly poor sound quality, especially S10

RECORDING DURATION: 98 min 54 sec

RECORDING DATE: 1.12.2004

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 24

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 13

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Persian/Farsi; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swahili; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (UK); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

NS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

NS8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Ireland); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Italian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

NS12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Canada); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Italian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S2> er erm so , er i'm talking about er (<NAME S3>) paper it's about democratisation in poor countries and er she talked just on er tanzania because sh- she live in tanzania so . i will give you the introduction , er when she said that er democracy and (poverty) are clearly interconnected we learn that the relationships are really complex and changing , er then she asked er if er it is a democracy if it means (xx) we can link (xx) to democracy and er then she she wanted to focus on tanzania because er it's one of the poorest countries poorest countries in the world , so i thought the definition of the concept (xx) democracy that er (limits to) political meaning so african democracy is meant to mean like western type of liberal democracy with the focus on competition participation and political and civil rights it's a definition er made by dahl . so about the democracy er in the united republic of tanzania and er we are looking at the background , er tanzania is one of the poorest countries in the world and er its economy is characterised by the substance economy (united) by the af- african jewellery sector and er dif- diverse- diversity in the other sec- sectors such such as mining industry and trade . then er we have to know that er until er 1961 there was an er er the british colonial invasion </S2>
<S1> i have to move this bit </S1>
<MOVES THE EQUIPMENT>
<S2> (thank you) </S2>
<S1> but if i move this this direction then you <NS8> [(xx)] </NS8> [(xx)] or maybe the other </S1>
<NS8> just put it down </NS8>
<S5> just go like that , you can just (xx) some kind of (xx) </S5>
<S1> oh you mean this one <S5> yeah yeah </S5> <SU> yeah </SU> oh i think we don't even need these here </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<PREPARING OVERHEAD PROJECTOR, P:25>
<S1> can you , see now </S1>
<P:05>
<S2> so tanzania er has been colonised er until er nineteen sixt- sixty-er-one and er after the independence they have they had a a new president er socialist leader called er julius er nyerere <S3> nyerere </S3> nyerere <SS> @@ </SS> so er this er president julius had er three principles that is er equality and respect for human dignity sharing of resources and er (work by) everybo- everyone and the exploitation by none so er i think he did a good job but er he has been he was er criticised by western countries which may be difficult to explain er why the western countries er er didn't agree with a with his work </S2>
<S3> <COUGH> sorry erm as you might have heard about nyerere he was one of the great african leaders because like er apart from bringing democracy in tanzania he also erm er fought for helped er other african country to get independence for instance er he was working very close with nelson mandela and a lot of other african countries and er nyerere was criticised by western country because he tried to introduce the african socialism called ujamaa whereby like er er he tried to in in tanzania we had thi- this socialism where we like er we do not want to take any like a- any er conditional any aid from outside like the western countries and er it was just like er production within the country and er it was er with this er three principles which you have said like equality and respect for human right and sharing of resources where people are supposed to live like in the villages and and share everything they they have like they cultivate and then they share everything they have and then he's criticised because they say like er er he his attempt to practice socialism in tanzania is one of the reason which er like up to date the country is very poor but er that was just like er the western country er view , er nevertheless i think his work was really it's very er , had a big importance in politics in tanzania because up to date er we don't have any ethnic division like er the country has er er tribes more than 125 tribes like many other african countries lot of you have presented in the previous sessions like er in africa the big problem is about ethnic and we have like more than 125 ethnic tribes but still we all speak one language which is swahili and that was due to the big work which is done by him and er until now we'd we'd we'd never er had any like ethnic division or like er tribal wars or stuff like that and to that extent yeah he did a good job and also if you look at er point of education the edu- as you know tanzania was colonised by british (xx) even the education system which was whi- which was in schools was was like a with a colonial effect like if you go to school and you're you're given education which which does not liberate you whi- which erm it's education to the effect that you you feel like if you don't get like white collar job then you know you you the education is nothing so you'll trying to like er to , to introduce this kind of education which at least everybody should know how to read and write and er at least that so if even if you not get job but then er education which will help tanzanian people to live according to the situation in their country but not education like you study about the names of street in britain or like some stuff which will really not help tanzan- local people in their development so er to that extent i think despite of everything like er it is said he was authoritarian and all that that he did a good job in regard to education and er er ethnic in tanzania </S3>
<S2> so er as <NAME S3> said er tanzania is quite different from the other african countries because there are no eth- ethnical division . and then the , political system er the constitution of tanzania protects er civil and political liberties nevertheless er (50) per cent voted one party the CCM which has been ruling since tanzania independence thanks to er ir- irregularities because er during the election in 2000 er there were lots of er irregularities which had been er (xx) , if you want to you can speak about (xx) <S3> @@ </S3> oh , so er now er we get to thinking about er liberal democracy in poor countries as er there are lots of er factors who play in the favour of democratisation so er i made a a little short list of the arguments er (xx) (developed) so first er illiteracy is a big problem er if you want to democratise a a a country then you have a neo-patrionrealism neo-patrionalism erm it's when a a man er try to er the president or the dictator try to er </S2>
<S3> not really , sorry not really like a dictator but er it's a way like this er it doesn't look as if we did (xx) like client-patron relationship wh- where it's like personalisation of politics like for instance this er nyerere we used to call him like father of the nation <SU> mhm </SU> so it's like it's more like a er is is a main feature like in many third world countries where like er there's this personalisation of politics where like the leader is seen as a father as a father figure in the in the er nation and he exercises power on public on on of public service as a private co-operative , so that's basically that's it </S3>
<S2> and then er if er mul- multi-partism mul- multi-partism is often er see- seen as a good thing sometimes in africa and er here in tanzania it has also const- constituted to a (xx) maximum in the society </S2>
<S3> yeah they just act like er as you talked about er this liberal democracy with a multi-party poll you know like we have multi-party election and all that but in a way multi-party er er er election is contributed to creating the missing elements in in in our society taking example tanzania where like in 2000 er and in 2000 election we had er like i will explain in my essay erm tanzania is a is a union of two country which is zanzibar and tanganjika and that's why it's called like united republic of tanzania now in zanzibar er it's er the that party is is really the arab er arab culture and er there's this er with a lot of like muslim er religion dominating the place so in the election of 2000 there was a first when there was introduction of multi-party er multi-party election erm there mainly there are like two main party in in in zanzibar where it's like er C-U-F civic united front and CCM which is er main er party which is still ruling since the independence but er the way it is this day introduction of this opposition party it has taken s- some sort of a like er ethnic role like the people from one tribe they feel like they have to identify with this one party because their leader is from that party you know their leader is from this certain tribe then the people they feel like they have to identify with er one party because of the leader due to , so somehow it has bring some decisive element in our society and like in 2000 election like there were some demonstration because people they did not er agree with the result of election and there were demonstration in the street and there was a fight er fight between police force and people were demonstrating and er thirty people were killed and still this is one of the history and so like if i look to the arab multi-parties i feel like it has to a certain extent created basic (xx) </S3>
<S2> and then er we can add that er er colonial invasion had er some negative effects on democratisation also the (nucleus) of the state because most of african er countries are the state who remains very weak , and then er the civil society er who has been whi- which has been er coerced into particular er culture of a (xx) to the (xx) and er even the NGOs who er which er sometimes er become er more er entrepreneurs and er don't really reflect er the desire of the population <P:06> but we also need to see the up because er tanzania made some progre- pro- progress to liberate people through education and er we have we have already seen that er illiteracy is a big problem if you want to democratise a a country and er then er tanzania which is a very committed er country er has made some efforts to create an (xx) but their government is not very effective or not <S3> [yeah] </S3> [is it] it's efficient </S2>
<S3> it is it is , it is like we have er first of all we have this way where like er every leader beginning from president has to announce the amount of property he has before you go into power you have to say for instance i have two houses and i have a car and i have this amount of er property and then like er after every period of time they'll you would have to announce to the public because like as i say that the way the the politics was taken is it was like state was seen as a primary arena for class-formation like if somebody's in power that's where the you know like that's where he has the grip of the the wealth of the country so like er this er corruption bureau the they introduced like er er the trend that er every , from president to minister and all the parliament member they have to announce the amount of er property they have and er to some extent it has helped the law still some er maybe we can say for instance if i'm the president i can still say it is certain properties for my wife or for my children or like er and then i would not announce it as mine but still it has meant er er erm er accountability to the certain extent like public can can question like er how did somebody er obtain all this property within short time </S3>
<S2> and then we draw the conclusions so er we er we have to be aware that er democracies in western model which needs to be adopted according to african countries their distinctive features , and then er concerning election they're they they were expensive and er they add to er poor countries' dependence on foreign aid , so it can also be a an obstacle to er the democratisation and then er concerning fro- foreign media they some- they sometimes they just can play a a (xx) in regard to democratic process in poor countries because er ethnic conflicts (xx) or corruption are not er an inherent feature of the african politic political sce- scene but er er most of the time foreign media er just er emphi- emphasises er the negative er negative signs o- of african countries . and my question er so first i wondered why you wanted to (explore) economic and political democracy because you wanted to s- to speak about er poverty and maybe er you also have to take into consideration the fact that er economic factors can play a role in er in democratisation </S2>
<S3> mhm well i decided to do that in my essay and and then i say like er c- economic democracy is is mainly like connected to political but in this essay i was just trying to focus in mainly on the political er democracy and just the aspects like the competition election in civilian political liberty and i you know er go into economic democracy though i know it's connected to <S2> yes [it is] </S2> [that] because i did not want to have a very wide er results from the discussion of my essay </S3>
<S2> yes and what does mean er for you the economic democracy </S2>
<S3> economic democracy is all about like if you talk about er being , i feel like you cannot talk of economic democracy in poor country like with even the the the situation of the economy itself and the poverty are so , i don't see much of economic democracy in poor country so i was mainly focusing on the political aspect of it </S3>
<S2> but er at the beginning of your paper you ask er if er it is democracy who rules wealth <S3> [yeah] </S3> [or wealth] leads to increased (cause) for democracy </S2>
<S3> yeah because those those were the two concept which i was [discussing] <S2> [i see] yeah </S2> and er like er er that's it's still like er debated whether democracy rules wealth or wealth leads to increased cause for democracy like er if a country has to be er has to be rich first and then it will have full democracy or like it has to have full democracy and then it it er then it should you know like improve from (xx) with this like er it's really , erm i said there's debate because like i see the way er the the aid like er if a western country or any er development organisation is granting au- er aid to african country then they tie to the condition like properly like you have to change your economy or some stuff if they put condition for which is regard to economic but though what they give er this aid so with this i i just feel like there's a lot of debate going on whether it's wealth which brings to er which will lead to democracy or is it vice versa so </S3>
<S2> yeah but what do you think do you think that it's wealth who can lead to democracy or democracy who can lead to er economic wealth because i er i found lots of er of of er </S2>
<S3> mhm (xx) you found </S3>
<S2> yeah er i found er lots of er analyst who said that er most of the time it's er when you have a economic development er you can have democracy er sometime you have most of the time it's er economic development that can lead to democracy , and i'm interested in (xx) </S2>
<S3> but there's still some country who are are like which are wealthy and still never democratic </S3>
<S2> <COUGH> there is </S2>
<S3> i don't know why </S3>
<NS4> <WHISPERING> russia <S1> mhm-hm </S1> russia is a perfect example <COUGH>  </WHISPERING> </NS4>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S2> mhm-hm if you just yeah [i will] </S2>
<S1> [er er] do you want to ask the opinion of the class [as well] </S1>
<S2> [yes] that is [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [i think] because that's a very interesting er q- question which one lead to er to democracy or to wealth </S1>
<NS4> i i think the first question is to be wealth where erm is it wealth in a <S3> [what] </S3> [in a] country like weal- wealth where in the country in in the country in general or er a small sector of the country er or or like where wh- wh- what wealth analysis are we looking at per <S3> [yeah] </S3> [capital] er per capita </NS4>
<S3> no it [couldn't] </S3>
<NS4> [per] person </NS4>
<S3> yeah not per person like per country </S3>
<NS4> because you can get wealth in a small sector of a society and it can be called a wealthy country but the people aren't necessarily any better which is one of the that's what happened on the IMF loans , erm er i disagree i think you need democracy and democracy brings economic benefits because it brings economic benefits to all instead of the other way around if you bring economic development and then democracy you have economic development for the few who then control the democracy and guide it to what they want it to be </NS4>
<S1> mhm-hm . yes go on </S1>
<S5> just wanted to say <COUGH> that way you first got economic development and then the organisation of democratisation has to imply the process of redistribution of goods and that's always very very difficult because those who have it won't give it away </S5>
<S1> very good <P:06> what are you , @talking yeah@ </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<P:09>
<S2> i'm just of the opinion er poor tanzania is di- is di- distant from the other african countries because you say that er each a- each african country is different er even if there are some stereotypes about er about er african country so life for me in tanzania is different from you or from the others </S2>
<S3> well erm basically it's like er i when i've said at the beginning like we've had presentation of since the beginning of this this course we've had er er presentations from like a lot of african country like niha- nigeria and congo and and everywhere and and it's like everyone is just in chaos it's like this picture of africa which is like full of chaos and you know like er corruption and you know this i don't know i feel like oh , by looking at my country i mean it's not because i come from tanzania but it's because i lo- i just look at oh some feature because like we don't have this chaos you know like chaos and and there are still these these problem with like er er corruption and everything they have they can be explained in like er (analyses) as i've explained in my essay but it's n- they are not inherent features of african politics so that is not like the way it has been portrayed so like the way i felt it's like i just feel like i have to you know to write something about these because i feel like er the picture the picture which the er the world has about africa is more like it's just too general and like i said about a- about africa we don't have ab- about my country we don't have yet an ethnic despite we have more than 125 tribes and er people speak different language but we still have this one language er which unite everybody and yeah , i thought it's distinct from other african countries and each country is distinct </S3>
<S2> i didn't (remember) but is tanzania becoming a real democracy </S2>
<SU> mhm-hm (xx) a real democracy </SU>
<S2> er tanzania is not so real democracy so what do you think it <S3> mhm mhm [mhm] </S3> [it needs] to become a real democracy </S2>
<SU> well [i don't] </SU>
<S3> [i'll say] it's not democratic really because if you look at the at the criteria of state like we have constitution we have separation of power we have civil and political liberty we have er multi-partism we have competition <S2> yes [but] </S2> [and] everything but still what i was trying to show you like it's it's not like tanzania is not democratic that is like erm er there are some features in poor country which will er which there's no make it possible for this poor country to practise liberal democracy to certain extent as well as developed country that's what i was trying to show </S3>
<NS4> i'd say yeah you need stability and time , what you're saying proves that tanzania is pretty much a stable country and then time i mean time is what made developed countries more democratic </NS4>
<S3> yeah but but even if you look at at this like this <NS4> [mhm-hm] </NS4> [west er] in western countries how long did it take to to reach to where it is now how long did it take to have this western and liberal i mean this western [liberal democracy] </S3>
<NS4> [a long time] </NS4>
<S3> long time [yes] </S3>
<NS4> [a long] time i i agree with you [i mean it's good] </NS4>
<S3> [yes that's] the way i feel like it's it's not like a matter of like er you have to look at africa in a way like it it has a lot of you know like of history like this cultural thing and then there's thi- there's post-colonial problem and then there's er this er traditional subsistence culture which is like er the the the way the politics has been like it's normally to be run like in a very small subsistence way so like even for people when the the leaders are coming to run the government they feel like they are running their the you know this er neo-patriotism thing so it's not like i feel like the african country whichever (reign) is to take this institution like erm er multi-party and civil and the political liberty you can't say they are not democratic but they are going through that direction but still there's a lot to be achieved until when you can be able to compare like er african country with the western country to the same standard like i was er the last week when er er <NAME NS12> was presenting about nigeria like er when i asked him like of participation for instance you know thi- this problem for instance of illiteracy where you have like 80 per cent of people they live in villages in in the village there's no any resources whatsoever s- in some part of the village they don't even know who's the president you know they're very much isolated there's no road there's no electricity there's no water there's no , people they don't know what's going on in their own country let alone in the world so it's , we're talking about different thing here and er it's hard to compare the er with the way the western democracies er with the way their democracy will work </S3>
<S2> yeah and the next question erm do you think that er (xx) problems in africa and especially in tanzania erm have been accentuated by by er the economy policies , er that african countries had to implement because of the world bank and the international moneta- monetary fund </S2>
<S3> mhm that's very mhm that's very hard for me to say but i think it's is it's like combination of you know (xx) because , but like erm , as i said in my essay it's like er the poor country cannot exist without rich country so er existing with with rich country means like existing in the exploited relation but still there's no any other way so this like condition from IMF or like a trade an an equal trade and everything it's like i don't know it's a feature i think </S3>
<NS4> yeah i was gonna say that as as as we talk about further democratisation in tanzania does that need to go hand in hand with further democratisation and transparency of of institutions such as the WTO IMF and world bank i mean because th- their their lack their lack of transparency was very evident in the financial crisis in the late 90s and and their policy of conditionality and contractionary economics so i i'd say that these bodies themselves these institutions need to democratise if democratisation is gonna work in developing countries as much as we want it to </NS4>
<S6> yeah as you were just saying i'm just just i think there was a a quote by <NAME> or something but it was kind of saying that erm these poor countries can't , will never meet up to the rich countries but they're getting exploited or which way around i think that comes back to this question why why is tanzania distinct from other african countries and what is the role of the bretton woods institutions IMF world bank because erm my question comes down on how how this involvement of the IMF the world bank in tanzania and if there's none like you said earlier if i if i really if i got that one right maybe that might made tanzania so special that the democracy actually is working a little bit although it's working a bit slow because that's my opinion on the IMF and the world bank that they are actually aren't supporting democracy , could you maybe s- say something about that also </S6>
<S3> mhm well you know like we have this involvement of IMF and er and and we we have like structural (xx) through (xx) erm , and then you know IMF is is really they're working like for now since we have this like er the president the current president erm who has been in power like for two sessions he has erm he has he's been working like hand in hand and like in some report in the world bank report they say like he's been working very hard and like now the er our country is one of the country in africa which is like it has moved from this highly indebted country to like low i don't know <SU> [(i know what you mean)] </SU> [what exactly] but it's it has moved from very highly like we we ha- we have er the country has reached the condition which was given and er a lot of debt is like (xx) because like the the government was committed to like paying the debts and and erm , something which was not understood by these local people like if there's no medicine in hospital or like if there's no schools and everything every time the president is saying yeah we don't have money because i'm paying to the you know i'm paying our debts so it's like the people you know the people they don't understand like what's happening but in the world bank report they're saying like er the government is being very good as it has paid you know like i don't know how it worked but like now it has moved from highly indebted country to like you know yeah </S3>
<S6> where do the debts come from </S6>
<S3> what </S3>
<S6> where do the debts come from <NS4> IMF </NS4> yeah but if if they're always paying back and not getting money so then the IMF gave tanzania a huge amount of money in the 60s 70s and now they have to pay it back or , so why do they still have to pay back so much money why is the country so highly in debt </S6>
<S3> i don't know but i think like most of african country are highly indebted like most of [poor country are] </S3>
<S6> [in debt to the bretton] woods [or is it] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] [yeah] </S1>
<S3> [highly] indebted </S3>
<S1> you know about debt crisis <S3> yeah [yeah] </S3> [which] is er er because of the interest rate they <NS4> [yeah] </NS4> [can't] even [pay that] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] because [their (interest) rate were] </S3>
<S1> [let alone the principle] </S1>
<S6> the the question is just if if if the first loan if if it came from the IMF or if the first debt actually came from somebody totally different and the IMF is supporting to reduce this debt <S3> uh-huh </S3> that's [a bit different] </S6>
<S3> [i think it] was from them because wha- what i remember is like er er there was a time under this nyerere leadership he was saying like he is not going to pay any debt because the country's poor and then like it has been colonised he had all these argum- er like argument that he is not going to pay any debt and i think for a lot of ti- i mean for a long period of time the country was not paying any debt so like then it has this huge amount of debt i remember like at one time er president was saying like that er the country has er approximate of 36 million people and he was saying like almost if the debt is distributed to each and every person in the country it's like all of us we are indebted because like er it was like a huge amount of money so i don't know </S3>
<P:10>
<S1> yes <NAME S10> </S1>
<S10> no i didn't have any @questions@ </S10>
<NS7> i have a question , about the education system the in the you talked about at first when there is the independence this leader really erm wanted literacy , be able to read and write but also practical or you know learning in the ways that were useful erm is that still the method used or is it a very very western model of [education] </NS7>
<S3> [i don't know] i mean to the primary to the primary level it's still the method used still because like er the education was like i don't know to say it but it was like er when you are educated like er you feel like you don't belong to the country like you are high society or like you don't fit anymore to the society so like this president who nyerere what he was trying to do is like to e- to make people educated but still be able to identify themselves with the with their own country like er if you er usually er the area education system was like it was preparing someone to work in this white-collar job like to be westernised and (xx) so with this er socialism er thing they need to , it introduces that and to date still in the primary education this thing is still practised <NS7> yeah </NS7> because like that's er the main focus now at least everybody should just know how to read and write and then from there er if you can continue to er other level that's something else </S3>
<P:13>
<S1> i think , <NAME NS8> </S1>
<NS8> yeah i have a question <S1> @@ </S1> do you do you think that the discourse of democratisation has political or social capital in tanzania </NS8>
<S1> er <S3> [i wouldn't say] </S3> [repeat please] your [question] </S1>
<NS8> [<COUGH>] do you think that that the discourse of democratisation like the whole way it's like talked about erm do you think it has like political and social capit- or social capital in tanzania </NS8>
<S3> social capital </S3>
<S1> effect </S1>
<NS8> er like is it is it worth something like it doesn't make someone like when does someone benefit like from talking about democratising yeah we're gonna democratise and we're gonna get the country up and going and modernise and everything and does that </NS8>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<S3> yeah i don't think it it has it has been sort of (xx) like because i feel like er to the most people democracy is like it's not the immediate solution to their problem it doesn't look like you know like somebody who don't like (xx) yeah democracy you know like it doesn't seem like immediate problem when you don't know why what you're going to eat or when you don't know like if you'll be able to er to buy medicine if you are very sick because there's no medicine in hospital then the whole democracy thing is like you know let's just leave it to the politician people they don't er able to identify themselves with democracy </S3>
<NS8> so the politicians talk about it </NS8>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<NS8> who do they talk about it with </NS8>
<S3> what </S3>
<NS8> who do they talk about it with </NS8>
<S3> they just talk i mean to the to the public but they don't understand as i said like even every time like we have erm the president is addressing the nation every time he's just saying like yeah we don't have money to buy to put medicine in the hospital because i'm paying debt i'm paying debt and then , as people they don't understand like why are you paying debt i mean then it's it it looks like it's just excuse that he's paying debt and then so we don't i don't (xx) </S3>
<NS8> so when they talk about democratising and making everything more democratic what do people , like </NS8>
<S3> people they don't understand </S3>
<NS8> they just scratch their heads </NS8>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<NS8> what the hell is he talking about </NS8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> [yeah] somehow yeah something like that </S3>
<NS8> what do you what do you think like er like erm , what kind of shape do you think er like an african democracy could have </NS8>
<S3> shape </S3>
<NS8> yeah </NS8>
<S3> @@ </S3>
<S1> or or <NS8> [is it] </NS8> [what is] african democracy </S1>
<NS8> because you say that like it's should be something considered something perhaps distinct from like a western european model like </NS8>
<S3> well i i don't know the shape exactly but i feel like it has these er features which which describe it in a different way as i talked in my essay like this er er this erm effect of colonialism and the the then the af- the nature of the er subsistence er and ne- neo- er patrionalism and i don't know i can't say exactly which shape </S3>
<NS4> er i liked the the the point you made earlier about erm production so i guess it's a mainly agricultural country erm and i think that's type one type of what shape of democracy it needs to be one where the agricultural products are are shared as as equally as possible between people where you have erm i guess that kind of democracy would be almost what you have in venezuela like the land reform where where people are sharing the actual products of the land rather i- rather than it it going to the rich and this kind of trickle-down effect that doesn't work erm so if we're talking about shape of democracy surely it's gotta focus first on the type of economy <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and the fact that it's agricultural and you work from there because that's working on the strength of the country er so i'd say if there was a a shape of a a tanzanian or an african democracy it needs to look at agriculture first and democratising the <S3> mhm </S3> products of agriculture , economic effects of agriculture </NS4>
<P:06>
<S1> yeah i <COUGH> i also made a si- in similar , proposition <NAME NS4> put forward that you need to have land reform as a precondition for any [democracy yes] </S1>
<NS4> [any any democracy in] agricultural countries </NS4>
<S1> but didn't the land reform take place already under that president julio julius nyerere </S1>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S1> [what] </S1>
<S3> [it] was [there was this] </S3>
<S1> [what kind of] land reform was it </S1>
<S3> there's still i don't know er the the agriculture is still like very (xx) but because like the country's is agricultural but still we have a problem of food to date like to some other parts like we are there's food imported from the (xx) this UN agency who deal with food so the agriculture is just still very subsistence we are like everybody's just like cultivating with hand and there's no any mechanic (xx) of agriculture whatsoever like it's still very local , in a way </S3>
<S1> so do the peasants er o- own the land which they work on is it divided the land to small pieces and given to <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [peasants] to the farmers or is it socially owned or is it <S3> [yes] </S3> [owned] is it is it n- nationalised , owned by the state </S1>
<S3> yeah it's owned by the state </S3>
<S1> so there has not been land reform </S1>
<S3> there was i know that there was </S3>
<NS4> probably from private colonial <S3> [oh yeah] </S3> [ownership] to the state <S3> [yeah (this type of)] </S3> [ownership which is what happened] in zimbabwe (where you've got) much bigger problems but definitely this happened in tanzania and it's a step forward you'd rather have it with with tanzanians than going out (to colonisers) </NS4>
<S1> oh yes please </S1>
<NS8> an an aut- an author has said that erm the continuing involvement of urban migrants er migrants with their village of origin is generally considered a special trait of processes of urbanisation in africa do you think that would apply within tanzania </NS8>
<S3> like urbanisation of villages </S3>
<NS8> that and people who move from rural areas in african countries they tend to remain heavily involved in the politics in the ar- of the areas that they come from in one way or another and that like erm like this is specifically what <NAME> er w- er this author was saying that erm . the crucial issue about that seems to be to what extent opportunities for accumulation in the city can be legitimated within the rural setting so whether or not at home people like share money or whether or not at home like there was always like inequalities of wealth and stuff like that and that like erm because of this like politics and democrat- democracy in like african settings like this has a kind of a warping effect on it . would you agree and would that be </NS8>
<S3> @i don't know@ </S3>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS8> sorry @@ </NS8>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<P:04>
<S9> erm do you think that this fast growing population in tanzania or everywhere in africa is a problem for the developing process because it's , <S3> [yeah it's] </S3> [it's hard] to develop erm a a welfare state with erm big amount of young people and <S3> yeah </S3> the global (xx) needs and </S9>
<S3> yeah it's still (xx) because like er the government cannot you know can't provide to er like to the growing population so , but still like er 80 per cent of like er of people are still living in villages 20 per cent in the urban areas so </S3>
<NS4> do you have a figure for children per family how big are the families generally , do you is there a is there a figure from (monetary fund) <S3> [mhm] </S3> [(xx)] and all these (xx) </NS4>
<S3> oh well i don't know i don't have figures but like er this er this wonderful african (xx) , children is there's to some extent seen as one of the african like er like er having many children is like you're more er like i don't know like you're more man or like you're you're <SS> @@ </SS> going to be well like every or what they say like every children comes with his own you know like blessing and maybe one day he's going to be a president or i don't know what but it's like er one you know this polygamous is there <NS4> [mhm] </NS4> [also] like er one man is having more than one wife and then like every wife want to have er children like competing with another like er if somebody's having three then i should have four you know </S3>
<NS4> that's not gonna be good for democracy </NS4>
<S3> i know but </S3>
<NS4> @but it's not@ i mean that [just that] <S3> [yeah] that's </S3> kind of well it's not gonna be good for political stability either this stability we need to give the time to the development of democracy is it gonna happen with a population that escalates all the time </NS4>
<S3> yeah still er erm there's been this er like method to like erm erm er family planning er aimed to er like but still er it has not been rece- er received very positively to the people </S3>
<NS4> okay </NS4>
<S2> yes and i don't think if er er the population will really increase because er there are lots of er HIV er <S3> yeah </S3> po- positive (sort of) positive person and what will be impact of er HIV in tanzania </S2>
<S3> it's big , it's big yeah so like yeah it's it's really num- number of people who get (xx) HIV AIDS </S3>
<S2> and do you have direction from the government or </S2>
<S3> you know we have , like er erm HIV HIV is just like everywhere the policy is in like er from primary education to the employment to everywhere like er they're trying to instil er this HIV policy in everywhere </S3>
<S2> right yeah </S2>
<S3> it's just it's one of the biggest problems still <S2> okay </S2> but before even before even HIV we have malaria which is even killing more people than HIV itself , HIV is like because it's it's global thing and everybody's just saying like yeah HIV's killed a lot of people but like there are records in my country it's like many people are dying of malaria than HIV and many of them being children under five years </S3>
<P:10>
<S1> yes </S1>
<S5> i have a question about the procedural aspect of democracy since you said that for example in small villages people are just not informed what was going on and when the president speaks to the public about the democratisation , people don't they don't understand what he wants to say so do you think that maybe a more elitist approach of democracy would be able would would make it able to er establ- would make it possible to establish a proper working democracy in tanzania so in a way democracy would not be the universal suffrage do you think that would be a solution for the problem then </S5>
<S3> mhm elites of course like how can you explain it , can you explain like er how do you think that elites approach should work </S3>
<S5> sorry (xx) </S5>
<NS4> how [do you] </NS4>
<S3> [yeah] </S3>
<NS8> with a small group running the country </NS8>
<NS4> yeah how do you think it would work </NS4>
<S5> it's n- <S3> [yeah] </S3> [it's] not a question of work but if you've got an electoral republic that's not capable of exercising democracy and it won't establish a democratic order w- you may have a possibility but it was just the question 'cause it could be maybe a solution for sa- sa- system like that <SU> [yeah but] </SU> [it's not only] a small group but it's a limited group not [everyone] </S5>
<S3> [it's] it's like it's a weak state and it doesn't have resources so it it has all these policy you know like yeah everybody should have this and that and still but still like there's no resource like to reach all those people still there's local government but mhm er like the problem with many poor country the problem of bureaucracy and public administration is very much centralised and we have local government but still it's just not much </S3>
<S5> yeah but how do you want to get a working democracy with a universal suffrage with a public that is just unable to participate because [it's not educated it's not informed] </S5>
<S3> [well there's (rules for)] yeah through things like of educating and the er empowering people like er making them conscious of what's going on i don't know but i don't think like we should have different kind of democracy than the this it's just one world it's one democracy it's just like yeah we'll er i think this poor country will reach there but it's still like a process but i don't think like we should have different s- suffrage like (if we have suffrage) </S3>
<S5> okay so you say it's possible to establish a model of western liberal (xx) democracy in tanzania <S3> yes </S3> okay </S5>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<NS4> yeah i i don't know it needs it needs a few things though it needs many things to work <S3> [yeah] </S3> [and some] time democratisation of international organisations democratise er like further agricultural reforms erm </NS4>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S3> mhm there's still [another way] </S3>
<NS4> [more more] more work towards er e- equality of distribution of money gained from agriculture , i mean these are the three things that you can pin it on and then the kind of things like er the an- the anti-corruption bureau and stuff like that it needs all of these to work at the same time , progressively and that means the IMF it means the world bank it means the WTO it means the UN as well </NS4>
<S3> yeah and it means the peoples i i mean the the government themselves like the good governance because if you are having like IMF and the and the all the international like western countries saying do this do this do but if it doesn't come from <S1> yeah [yeah] </S1> [you] know from the government from the good governance themselves [then it's like] </S3>
<NS4> [oh oh that that] that's where [it comes from] </NS4>
<S3> [it doesn't work] </S3>
<NS4> yeah i i agree but it in it needs all of them basically <S3> yeah </S3> which is hard and as yet we haven't seen that anywhere because all development's been based on exploitation </NS4>
<S1> but is there any social movement for democracy in tanzania </S1>
<S3> social movement , yeah yeah we have the civil society , and they want to </S3>
<NS4> higher level of democracy </NS4>
<S1> what </S1>
<NS4> there's already high <S3> [yeah] </S3> [level of] democracy so how much more civil movement do you want <S3> @@ [it's a] </S3> [if you've] gotta concentrate on actual @production of@ of goods <S1> yes </S1> people don't have the time to have the time to this donate all their time to NGOs (understandably) </NS4>
<S3> yeah but still NGOs there's li- like an (open) there's a civil society NGOs and people are participating a lot and er like er they they were through that they were trying to make the government more accountable but still last year the government has made this er NGO law to like restrict , because NGO wa- was like growing very you know like very fast and like er you know like making government very er trying to make government accountable to everything like er in corruption or good governance and everything and from last year we have this law which is like limiting the like if NGO is is going beyond the limit then it will be like abolished and all that and still that is seen as one way of like undemocratic trying to control this civil society but there are a lot of civil societies still </S3>
<P:08>
<S1> <NAME S2> er would you give your overall comment on her paper </S1>
<S2> mhm er i think it's a good paper because er tanzania is not er the african country we are speaking the most so it was interesting to know more things about tanzania i agree with <NAME S3> when she said that er democracy is a western model and (already) it has to be adapted to er african countries i don't know i- in in what way but er it it gonna be has to be a- adapted and erm , yeah the only negative point is that er maybe er you've just have er accentuated er the consequences of er economic er problems but er i thought it was quite a good paper </S2>
<S1> that's er very good </S1>
<APPLAUSE>
<P:06>
<S1> because we have today two only paper today so we can take short break come back and <NAME S10> present her paper and then we finish today the session earlier than usual so but please do take a short break because you wanted to </S1>
<COFFEE BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S10> [okay er my presentation is about the (xx) organisation] </S10>
<S1> <NAME S10> can you please speak louder </S1>
<BACKGROUND CONVERSATIONS CONTINUE>
<S10> my presentation is <SU> [shh shh shh] </SU> [about the (xx)] organisation in the democratic process er like er social actor and (xx) from the states and er er (xx) the amount of er of their civil society er my mhm work is divided in er two part , sorry <ADJUSTING POWERPOINT> okay in the first part the er indication of democra- er of erm movement organisation i analysed the historical background and the characteristic of movement organisation and in the second part i analysed the democratic process and the concept of civil society and i introduced durkheim's theory about civil society and er in the third part i analysed the (xx) the world (xx) movement organisation in a particular context er latin american countries and especially in the context of er rural (xx) of transition from a totalitarian to a democratic states , the first part er the first part is a definition of erm government organisation like (xx) a lot of actors they're (existing) er in their governments and er or corp- or corporation er in mhm mhm mhm operating er on an non-profit er non-pro- profit ba- er basis er with an emphasis on rural (xx) and i give also the definition of world be- er world bank wo- world bank er like privat- er private organisation that works er activity to relieve suffering promote the interest of the poor profit er protect the environment provide basic social service and undertake community development er i spoke about the objectives of rural movement organisation in general er the most important one is to provide er good service in the field of er (xx) changes and human rights erm i spoke also about the historical background and i talk about the the- the theories erm mhm the interest about the movement organisations started in the 19th century er with er (xx) the concept of er political association and the citizens' rights and especially in europe and er in america the first time but there are also some theoretical er er example erm mhm theories the erm of mhm the theory of er alexis de toqueville for example er spoke about the erm er ass- the mhm associating the sufficient rights er into er the democratic process er in er with the states and durkheim spoke about erm associations with (corporatism) er into the erm the states in the period of transition from a mechanic to an organic society and he introduced the concept of civil society </S10>
<S1> er <NAME S10> before you go any further can you explain that durkheim <S10> [durkheim yes] </S10> [just yes] yes </S1>
<S10> er he spoke about the transition from a mechanic to an organic society in or- organic society there were there </S10>
<S1> society or solidarity </S1>
<S10> solida- the solidarity is the erm the particular relation that er the erm the the erm the erm the peo- the people have in a relation with the state <S1> mhm-hm </S1> solidarity and er also er the degree of er erm of a re- of er asso- associationism in (xx) stage and he spoke er about just the corporatic m- er as a new er innovation into the erm the organic society </S10>
<S1> so what is the basic differences between the a mechanic society and organic society </S1>
<S10> the erm the organic society it it is the erm the place of individualism of the people er but erm mhm mhm association in a civil society because er erm be- because we need with the independe- the people also want to have direct connection with the states so er they (focused) on the er importance of er their relation on the civil society <S1> okay </S1> into the civil [society] </S10>
<S1> [that] is organic er [society so how about] </S1>
<S10> [yeah in organic] </S10>
<S1> the mechanic society </S1>
<S10> mhm there is not er not the con- not a strong control of the states on a the citizen </S10>
<S1> okay </S1>
<S10> this is the difference between them so , er during the 19th century the (xx) association er was erm addressing issues including women rights recognition of poor people their rights and environmental (assisting) and development . and er this was my erm material my (xx) er is er (xx) relations (xx) er i would like to do er work on this (xx) convention , [erm] </S10>
<S1> [i'll] i'll tell you because maybe <NAME NS4> knows that is an- an- anti-slavery movement was from england or in america was initiated </S1>
<NS4> er there was certainly an early one in england erm i mean it depends on when the one in america grew but it was definitely in north and east coast of america which shows that it could well have come from england it's down where we had the best connections it's the east coast <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [we're still] widely spread there </NS4>
<NS8> it started in england </NS8>
<NS4> huh </NS4>
<NS8> it did start in england <NS4> yeah yeah </NS4> england (ruled out) slavery like years before the states </NS8>
<NS4> mhm-hm it's true what about the rest of europe </NS4>
<S1> er france </S1>
<S11> there have been some anti-slavery movements but it wasn't governance that (xx) </S11>
<S1> because the france didn't have any slavery system or [did you] </S1>
<S11> [yeah there] was there was but er many (authors) (xx) (authors) supported slavery so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> until you (xx) anti-slavery </S11>
<S1> how about italy <NAME S10> </S1>
<S10> not italy erm </S10>
<P:08>
<S1> yeah alright it's it's your paper </S1>
<S10> erm in the 90s erm er it was under the process of (xx) theory erm that would (xx) the importance of er er civil society and er the role of er movement organisation (xx) during the 90s (as it remained) important er subject er like er environmental agreements women's rights (xx) and (xx) er human rights of children the (xx) poor and marginalised people er there are two (xx) important categories of the movement organisation operational whose primary role was a is a (xx) question of development progress and advocacy er (xx) mutual objective to the (xx) of promote a specific cause and to influence the politics and power of the international institutions so er advocacy are er like pressure groups erm op- operational country er cannot er development er projects and recognise it in two parts community-based organisation which serve a specific population or (xx) (ethnic area) national organisation which operate in individual developing countries international organisations which are typically situated in developing countries and support operations in more than one developing country </S10>
<S1> can you give one example of [international organisation] </S1>
<S11> [international organisation] </S11>
<S10> @@ the <S1> [huh] </S1> [same] questions </S10>
<S1> you have same question </S1>
<S11> @yes@ </S11>
<S10> mhm for example er erm er er advocacy for example is always international because it's er in connection with er differen- with erm in- international institutions and inter-governmental organisation like er for example world trade organisations er erm world bank er mhm operational erm , there there's more and more more government organisation er (which is operating) the national (conflicts) for example like in the northern italy there is emergency for example <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] and they operate in the field only (xx) </S10>
<S1> like in finland they have FINIDA are you er familiar <S10> [no] </S10> [with] FINIDA the finnish yes you , no </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [no] </SU>
<S10> okay i would (xx) importance of er the strategies of movement organisation and of (directness) mhm mhm the important factors are the flexibility and the adaptability of er the structure of movement organisation and er it is based on the philosophy of (<NAME>) er another (xx) is er long-term commitment an emphasis is er i mean self-sustainability that er is based on er the er voluntarism and er (xx) nation for example er then there is a a (xx) crossro- mhm crossroads linked er because the projects are basically in the erm field in the field and er in the (xx) international human rights er collaborate with different (governmental) organisation (if not @changed@) and er for example this is true er of er for example of er amnesty international erm and the inter-governmental organisation are particular er organisation ma- made up by the most important institutions like er for example the world bank er er but the weakness er we have to (alleviate) the financial management (xx) these small-scale interventions erm because sometimes these organisation are not strictly connected , and er generally if (xx) show (xx) in different from (xx) institution and deal with the demands er from this year , especially on the field of er the sector of er personal training and the social operation . about the in the second part i spoke about democracy and the (xx) definition of democracy er democracy er is erm derived from the term democracy derives from two er older er greek words <FOREIGN> demos </FOREIGN> and <FOREIGN> kratos </FOREIGN> and it's means that er the power is endowed to nation and that er sovereignty it is specific for er participation er so er people can choose the erm mhm mhm their president and the er to the erm right to to vote and the (xx) are ap- are put at at the table erm (xx) to the people who voted for them , mhm there are many erm important characteristics that disti- distinguish er an authoritarian from popular not not democratic rule regime to an er democratic regime er for example representative system er which er ground erm er is grounded the pluralism of er political parties er with existence of two or many parties and popular parties (xx) to a free regular er fair and competitive elections the suppression of power in a different kinds of judicial institution the control of the security force by the democratic states the pluralism of inter- er information and existence of many voice and equality (xx) must give human rights , about the definition of civil society we can see that the civil society (xx) civil society is a er based on civic integration er popular participation and er sufficient interest and (xx) of (xx) (combination complication) and with the different er social actors erm civil society er built a network erm with the sort (xx) demands are er implemented and er erm is based on the cohesion of erm the erm mhm citizens erm to er (find their own) interest (xx) different er difference of the states one of the most important things about civil society is that it's not (dualist) er putnam is an italian er writer who (introduced) the importance of civil s- er society in the different region mhm region er it put er erm he er focused er er the importance of civil society and er er erm er he spoke about the erm the level the level of er (xx) organisation erm because on that level of association er activities erm , because erm the erm cre- create a greater social (xx) </S10>
<DISC CHANGE>
<S10> (xx) government because movement organisation (took) forming the civil society and very important er (matter it is) but movement organisation for instance it is participation and (xx) to join the civil society </S10>
<S1> er <NAME S10> can you go back to that er definition of er NGO er or are you everybody agree with that definition <P:06> because i have problem to myself understand that that kind of definition like ci- ci- civil so- society and how NGO become just er reduced to the cement for the [maintaining the cohesion of the civil] </S1>
<S10> [a movement organisation are particular] participation of the civil society er association </S10>
<S1> <COUGH> it's like you know reducing something which is concrete like NGO for me it's okay it's it's self-evident non-governmental organisation it's a concrete phenomena and reducing it to a the er or bring it on to the surface of something which is abstract civil society again i think one analogy helps here is that like er civil society is equal to the c- concept of fruit whereas NGO is one specific fruit like banana or apple it's a concrete thing you can you know use it but civil society is it [just the abstraction and] </S1>
<S10> [civil society is also concrete] mhm- [hm] </S10>
<S1> [it's] a concrete [thing] </S1>
<S10> [yeah] because er it's er manifestation or a (xx) social movement </S10>
<NS4> and you could say that it brings together certain sections of civil society <S10> mhm-hm </S10> you could say that it brings together certain sections of civil society for example NGOs that represent , er i don't know a certain a certain section let's say amnesty or even er fox-hunting in england let's take that that's a , you could create an NGO for that it would bring together all the people for which that that was relevant <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and so you could say NGOs represent phenomenon that increase the cohesion of certain sections of civil society but then you get in this technical language and (xx) for english </NS4>
<S10> mhm [(xx)] </S10>
<NS4> [i don't know you know] it's it's fine </NS4>
<S10> sometimes er there are not (xx) difference </S10>
<S1> hegel said that civil society is er <COUGH> beyond family short of a state somewhere in between i mean anything . it doesn't help it doesn't help you the concept of civil civil society but NGO it it is a concrete thing and i think it should not have been you know reduced to the ser- sub- <S11> [mhm] </S11> [given] a subservient role </S1>
<S11> it does depend on the time and history because erm sometimes er civil society was understood as er something that was different from er from states mhm <S10> yeah </S10> er very general er <FOREIGN> (l'eglises) </FOREIGN> </S11>
<S1> what </S1>
<S11> churches churches </S11>
<S13> [yes that's what he said] </S13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S11> (xx) for some for some like er saint augustine was er was was different from from church and er later on it was what was (it come) from , the state and now it's a real (xx) er notion because er we can (xx) compare er private private companies as er ma- er being part of civil society but sometimes as you said USA er NGOs for example or or civil societies the third sector er compared to the first one is the the the (xx) and the second one is the private companies so er civil society has great many definitions er it's depending on the history and depending on the on on what is (i wonder) wh- why we focus on we focus on on er er on religion so a civil society is assumed different from the church and (of course) politics the civil society is different from the state if you look at at er business civil societies who are different from the companies so it really depends on the point of view </S11>
<S10> yeah there are many kind of er er movement organisations <S1> mhm-hm </S1> for example there are (xx) (balkan) regions er (xx) . er the third part @@ er is about the role of movement organisation in latin america <S1> mhm </S1> er and er in this er (xx) erm i spoke about the role of movement organisation in the period of transition erm mhm from authoritarian to a democratic state and er i spoke about the movement organisation and and the important matter in in a process of (xx) erm but er in in this er on this field er erm the role of movement organisation is particularly complex er because er latin american tradition (has stated) this i would call a corporativist culture and er the social institution derived from the old latin er er law and er french administrative tradition er so there's a new sort of a er movement organisation in latin america <P:05> er the beginning er there was er mhm rural tradition and an older form of interest (representation) er before the emergence of movement organisation er in the 1990s organisations were based on personal er relationship and erm political parties er that are a modern form of representation but er of the interest but er sometimes there is the an unequal unequals amount of (other) presentation and interest for example for the women women rights and the religions <P:07> i spoke about three different wave of democratisation in latin america erm and er erm (tried to draft) the relationship among non-governmental organisations and civil societies and social movements , the first erm first wave a non-government organisation and social movement are strictly (formatted) and er civil sof- societies who supported them and its involvement in political activities in the second wave non-government organisation and movements are divided because of the excessive formalisation of the socials er group and their bureaucratic changing , er the cities that (xx) movement who lost their (xx) their public participation and withdrawn in the private (area) there is a sort of (xx) culture matter in the field of (rural) politics er the third wave of government organisation movements (xx) in a civil society these are social organised are big and the old movement organisation are replaced with (xx) one so in the first wave er the first wave is er during the se- er 70s and 90s and movement organisation involved in action that forwarded the replacement of military governments with elected ones other er other (xx) expression of social movement and development of (indian) workers' social er erm promotion in grassroots and erm so this is erm this er situation derived from the strong citizens of (xx) er participation and er financial support of a a of some er non-government organisation (xx) , and the second wave that begin is in the beginning of the 90s the situation changed erm both in the society and the non-government organisation and it's trying to (upgrade) er the relations between movement organisations social movement and (xx) because important section of the population (xx) the (xx) the latin america movement organisations (xx) country begins to increase and the field of movement organisations started to receive a (wide wider) organisation from (xx) sector like (xx) and (xx) . erm mhm the way er it was (xx) and the way (we see) the social movements er such as environment erm environmentalist er feminist and in- indigenous movement and the (manifestation) in the collective battle against corruption for the human rights and pacifism er movement organisations represented political instrument that has some related to political parties but in this way it's a an diverse (xx) in terms of civil so- civil society , er in the future erm in my opinion the first thing (xx) to start is to recognise the diversity of er organisations er the second the second step is to demonstrate (xx) movement organisation working er work working in a strictly rationed er civil society and the third step is to support social group of movement organisations (exploring) and working in politics in a good sense er promoting (xx) and er (eventually) look at territors territories and their specific ar- er areas and building new er strategy that are independent part of the state and markets , i go into conclusion and give a erm particular definition of democracy er because er in my opinion democracy is not (too widely) (xx) and it's (xx) of particular society but it's a slow process of development based on popular legitimacy and derives from the nation's social and cultural needs from the initiation of all the political actors and from the respect <S1> [mhm] </S1> [of] such demand such equality human rights and freedom of expression </S10>
<P:05>
<S1> thank you </S1>
<S11> so i have some questions concerning your data but er i see i have some (xx) er i know you say you said that political scientists often refer to NGOs as special er lobbying groups and then you say that er this concept does not do justice to this organisation so could you tell us the main common feature between lobbying groups and NGOs and what er (xx) </S11>
<S10> yeah er the pressure groups are are only er one part of the erm er the general non-government organisation it is not part of the erm advocacy non-government organisation liberation (while ma- er) some erm (xx) project and the erm there there are the operation groups because they er their activity is based on the fields and they operate er for example er in the school in the field of (xx) human rights not in direct er er relation with the erm most important institutions er international institutions so er they don't signify the er politics of these institution but they erm in like like pressure groups but er erm by means the direct acts actions </S10>
<S11> okay erm </S11>
<S1> trade union <SU> mhm </SU> is a [pressure group] </S1>
<S10> [a pressure group] </S10>
<S1> not a NGO <S10> yeah </S10> which [one] </S1>
<S11> [(i'd say)] , pressure groups [erm] </S11>
<S10> [press-] er it's the pressure group </S10>
<S1> it's a pressure group </S1>
<S10> mhm in my opinion yes </S10>
<S1> yeah i i think you're right </S1>
<S11> and i think the main difference is that er pressure groups er represent an interest whereas er NGOs er both represent and try to to improve the situation of the interest </S11>
<S10> yes but er in the erm in the operation er there is erm the the most important er in it is the membership into er the mhm mhm non-government organisation , in international government organisation pressure group the most important er element is er that er they are in- (xx) </S10>
<S1> yeah and is it <S11> [(xx)] </S11> [right to s- to emphasise] that the pressure group er come into terms er with the state or or some organ of the state and try to set or or conduct a negotiation <S11> yeah </S11> whereas a NGO have nothing to do with the state , is that correct i mean is </S1>
<S11> they they have they have er a voice to make heard by the states but er their main job is not to to </S11>
<S1> negotiate [with the state or set up] </S1>
<S11> [(xx)] at least half of them their (xx) funds from the state or er international organisation and then mhm yeah their job is to to negotiate and other NGOs that are on the advocac- er er can be classified as advocacy or (isn't) the fact that er the operational feature er part part itself er the definition of NGOs can then [build on] </S11>
<S10> [(xx)] or the er operation </S10>
<S11> sorry </S11>
<S10> i think all these er the operations (xx) </S10>
<S11> yes er er do you think er an NGO could be called an NGO if it's not operational <P:05> erm </S11>
<S1> if it's not operational it is not NGO <S11> yes (xx) @@ </S11> so what does it mean in er , in simple language in english </S1>
<S10> mhm , mhm that erm the activity of movement organisation is er er to promote er erm intervent (into the) field in my opinion they influence philosophy of (xx) so er the pressure groups are not directly connected with the field . it's </S10>
<S11> are they [gonna] </S11>
<S10> [it's] not <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er particular er er (type) of movement organisation <S1> mhm-hm </S1> is between the intergovernmental and the institution </S10>
<S11> because i don't think we can call pressure groups as NGOs because as for me the er main main feature of NGO is that they act on their own their own er on the problem and they try to resolve it whereas erm to solve it whereas er pressure groups are er negotiating with the state and don't really represent the problem or the interest of s- er er of people of companies or some sectors of a erm of the economy the er (xx) they don't act to to to promote the er or to solve the problem whereas NGOs for me do that and that's why they're NGOs </S11>
<S1> thank you mhm okay </S1>
<S11> mhm and you asked our thought er example of operation and advocacy NGOs (xx) operation but er i need example too about er community community-based or national or international NGOs </S11>
<S10> mhm mhm , mhm the national er erm for example er the erm the movement organisation connected with a (xx) er erm erm the world bank erm , national er for example in italy er (xx) many kind of er movement organisation in italy for example emergency and er (xx) that's er er (xx) field er into the region </S10>
<S1> well this er well i i think [this it's regarding the] </S1>
<S10> [i don't like the (xx)] </S10>
<S1> international er NGO (xx) which we have here er example i think just er recently there was a european MTV music award and it went to one italian was it italian [er international] </S1>
<S13> [yes the last one] </S13>
<S1> er f- NGO which were which its function is to promote or to to er save the victim of er er prostit- er prostitution in in europe what is [it called what] </S1>
<S13> [(i don't know)] <S1> estrada </S1> i don't know er (xx) gino [strada] </S13>
<S10> [er] gino strada [emergency] </S10>
<S1> [what] </S1>
<S13> emergency </S13>
<S10> emergency yeah it's the one of the the most important national </S10>
<S1> NGO so [that is one] </S1>
<S13> [yes yes this one] yes this the one who was talking <NAME S10> <S10> [emergency] </S10> [emergency] gino strada </S13>
<S1> <SIC> gio estra </SIC> </S1>
<S13> [@yeah@] </S13>
<S10> [emergency] (it's an ex-) er example of national movement </S10>
<S1> is red cross one international NGO or not </S1>
<S10> (it's er just a) national . i think er it has erm operation with the international non-government organisation but it's national </S10>
<S11> is red cross national </S11>
<S10> cross-national </S10>
<S11> (as trans-national as this) international that some neighbour country [(xx)] </S11>
<S1> [it has] national branches </S1>
<S11> they're all national branches (xx) it's basically an international NGO because it acts as <S13> yeah i [know] </S13> [(acts) (xx)] </S11>
<S10> which is @national@ (xx) </S10>
<S1> do you okay for your [interna-] </S1>
<S10> [but to] operate in a er other countries </S10>
<SU> mhm-hm </SU>
<S11> er about the origin of NGOs er does NGOs from the source of a problem (pre-) exist or is it always er an [(xx)] </S11>
<S10> [now exist] not at the beginning of 1980s to er create er opportunity we want to have a er er er non-government organisation er from the (xx) operating (xx) </S10>
<S11> and now (xx) </S11>
<S10> and now many movement organisation are er are going to do er that </S10>
<S11> yeah they (xx) </S11>
<S10> mhm mhm </S10>
<S11> er . you talk about the role of civil society in democracy but er what have to be the main main features of civil society er to (xx) with the characteristic of democracy what (characteristics) er civil society has to have to </S11>
<S10> there are ce- certain (xx) and er mhm possibility to have a different voice in society the freedom of expression the respect of human rights the role of er future mhm of democracy </S10>
<S11> yes would you think a civil society has to be autonomous and not to be a <S10> [yeah] </S10> [(xx)] er a state erm , you talked about putnam that er is one of the first researcher er about NGOs and (xx) 1903 er did er researches on NGO exist before then that or was there were there </S11>
<S10> oh you mean NGOs or <S11> [NGOs NGOs] </S11> [about the role of civil societies] about NGOs er is a new field <S11> [uh-huh] </S11> [for research] erm i think er in the beginning of the 90s it started but erm there's now theories (xx) the question of civil society <S11> okay </S11> not [(xx)] </S10>
<S11> [(xx) (maximum profits)] and for [(xx)] </S11>
<S10> [(xx)] erm the concept of er social capital and political capital which are the important aspects of er er movement organisation so it is two terms er strictly connected </S10>
<S11> er you talk about er NGO as new promise of for representation (xx) <BACKGROUND NOISE> and political parties but do you think er representing people is one of the role of NGOs or or not </S11>
<S10> yeah <S11> yes </S11> the most important one because er (they can offer) erm opportunities to to er people to to find their own interest to er (xx) er (in the) nation and the state and power (xx) the distribution of power </S10>
<S11> and i also think they have to to help people and then to help us to make their voice their voice heard but but today would (xx) free and an international non-governmental organisation that is based for example in germany or in uganda or <S10> [(xx)] </S10> [(xx)] in africa does it represent every part in africa or do they help them to be [heard] </S11>
<S10> [the] community based organisation (mhm of) human rights <S11> mhm </S11> is the very little organisation and they (xx) <S11> mhm </S11> (democratic things) so i think it er this erm (xx) of of africa's representation </S10>
<S11> okay and you said about the evolution of er NGOs in latin america that erm the third wave is er NGO has (xx) their professionalism <S10> [mhm-hm] </S10> [er] could you tell us what er this really means </S11>
<S10> because er movement organisation is (xx) the relation between er power of the state and there is the (xx) to the state <S11> mhm </S11> like erm politic er changes [of the state] </S10>
<S11> [okay] erm wh- wh- wh- what i'm just curious (of) names or or examples you use er <S10> mhm </S10> and you said er one time that er there are there are there are places where NGOs execute their government's programme er like (xx) for children on the streets but are they still NGOs and if they they , if they do do the erm the work of states are they still NGOs or if they if they act (xx) for the state are they still NGOs </S11>
<S10> depends if the control is (relaxed) or strong , they (don't really) control of the state and er [(xx)] </S10>
<S11> [yeah yeah that] for example in the second wave you said that erm yes </S11>
<S10> in the second wave it's different because it was erm erm different situa- erm the distance er in between the er the the civil society and the movement organisation the erm structure of movement organisation er was very er er bureaucra- it was very bureaucratic er [er] </S10>
<S1> [<NAME S10>] please explain to us not to him </S1>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<S10> [sorry] @@ er was er erm a bureaucratic er structure there was a bureaucratic structure in the movement organisation of the period </S10>
<S11> and were they under the control of economics or were there </S11>
<S10> in the second wave yes </S10>
<S11> so were they still NGOs . or were they or were they as you said associations or or erm organisations under the state because non-governmental organisation [(xx) (programmes or) (xx)] </S11>
<S10> [yeah er no no it's] yeah it was a (xx) period </S10>
<S11> okay so so i've got no more questions if somebody else </S11>
<S1> any question <P:06> <NAME NS8> </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS8> i think you're wrong <NAME S1> i don't think you could compare civil society to fruit </NS8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS8> i think you're making a a a language mistake </NS8>
<S1> is it </S1>
<NS8> yeah i think so yeah because like a fruit is a category based on like a a a system on a scientific system of like (xx) a civil society is the kind of a way of talking about things like you know a way of like conceptionalising how different <S1> [yes] </S1> [institutions] and actors move and act and interact so i don't think you could say it's an abstraction like fruit , that's what i think </NS8>
<S1> yeah that's that's very ri- i mean said but </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> i agree <NAME S11> because i think he's sup- he's supporting your idea </S1>
<NS8> yeah @@ </NS8>
<S11> i think he is <S10> @@ </S10> (he's right in) </S11>
<S1> what </S1>
<S11> i think he's right </S11>
<S1> he's right </S1>
<S11> yeah i think so </S11>
<P:07>
<S1> <NAME NS7> , <NAME NS12> </S1>
<NS12> i actually really liked all of your definitions so i don't have too many complaints </NS12>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<P:07>
<S1> <NAME S13> </S1>
<S13> no , i was thinking about the difference between again the pressure groups and er the NGO because it seemed that the main objective of the pressure groups are are concerning just er politics aim (also) (xx) political aim <S1> yes </S1> erm is that er NGOs doesn't care about politics maybe they have to do something about politics but erm always they can they have they don't care about politics they can act also without any politil- political link </S13>
<P:09>
<S11> pressure groups don't have do not do not have always politi- political aims there are many [there are many aims for] </S11>
<S13> [but yes but yes but] but they have to do not not always but often with concerning with a political place and a (xx) </S13>
<SU> [yeah] </SU>
<S11> [because] that way er there is [there were some actions] </S11>
<S13> [yes yes yes yes] , there still are </S13>
<S11> and their first aim i think it's [(xx)] </S11>
<S3> [but but i think] that er this picture he is painting is is kind of (visual) (xx) compared to like in my country because like NGO are even [like penetrating in the politics] </S3>
<S13> [yeah in the yes in the (xx)] and the (xx) </S13>
<S3> so er like there's an (xx) because like they just operate from everything from politic to </S3>
<S1> i <COUGH> my problem with with your paper the only thing i had was this your perid- periodisation of these three wave of democratisation which i i i i know the foundation for it wh- what are your criteria to divide it into three different phases </S1>
<S10> i've (xx) er purpose of er democratisation in different countries and it's my general- generalisation @@ [(xx)] </S10>
<S1> [y-] yes that's </S1>
<S10> yeah @@ but it's different to analyse the erm single activities of the movement organisation in the different countries and you know like in the government (actions) </S10>
<S1> okay <P:07> yeah <NAME S11> would you please give us your overall [(xx)] </S1>
<NS8> [(xx)] </NS8>
<S11> (i really think) erm that (these are) a quite good review on the world of NGOs in latin america (xx) </S11>
<S1> and how was the paper the structure the </S1>
<S11> it was quite logical erm there's begin by definitions and then continues to the strictly er er empirical things (xx) </S11>
<S1> yeah i think it was very good paper thank you </S1>
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