<TITLE: Gaze Path Research Seminar
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: technology
DISCIPLINE: information technology
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD090
NOTES: continuation of USEMP04A, seminar also includes presentations USEMP04D-E

RECORDING DURATION: 24 min 4 sec

RECORDING DATE: 4.3.2004

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: circa 30

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 9

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

NS2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (UK), French; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Croatian; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Czech; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>



<PRESENTATION USEMP04A by S1>


<PRESENTATION USEMP04B by S4, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S1> okay thanks <NAME S4> i don't think we'll allow any questions at this point because we will be here today or in the future so you can always ask questions and i think the main thing today is to give the floor to our our invited speakers i think we'll move straight on to that . and er first we should welcome once again <NAME NS2> from from (xx) we are about 10 minutes er behind schedule but i don't want to steal that from your presentation fortunately we have a long coffee break so we'll cut that a little bit shorter and you'll have the <NS2> [fine] </NS2> [20] minutes or so and you can schedule the time as you wish and <NS2> mhm </NS2> leave time for questions if you wish or just (xx) </S1>
<NS2> thank you </NS2>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION USEMP04C by NS2, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<APPLAUSE>
<S1> thank you and now we have plenty of time for questions </S1>
<P:14>
<NS2> i must say that observations presented by chris must feel quite messy that's the sort of a real life situation unfortunately not writing a a paper for (xx) researchers wasn't a good start and to review then this is what i'm gonna do and this is what i have done er things coming from all directions you think you understand and think you got a hold and (xx) but it's it's all it's all fascinating stuff and and it comes we're still very good friends and </NS2>
<S1> and you continue to work with him </S1>
<NS2> i'm continuing yes within this month we'll do something which we haven't really done properly is the the eye-tracking with er er him drawing er portraits in gouache colour i mean i've eye-tracked him drawing in pencil and i've observed him do a painting but but (xx) so yeah we will we we will do that and as as you know the eye-tractors have become much more user-friendly so you you can actually wear it and forget about it </NS2>
<P:05>
<S5> er hi i'm er thank you for the (xx) i'm from university of art and design and do research on on how to use (xx) er basically er i would be also interested what kind of er sort of verbally explained material you er <NS2> yeah </NS2> (xx) were used during these er tests and how could you produce data at all <NS2> [er] </NS2> [for] example describing emotional emotional relationship (xx) </S5>
<NS2> er yes yes yes and no i mean for example the two the the quotations i gave you are are are the type of material that i used er that that that we went into which were basically during the breaks when he was just you know er te- teaching me things about painting and drawing that that's what he was (xx) about and it was fascinating we we we never go into er the details of the test i mean he he would not sit here as (xx) i cannot tell you why it's just it's just not right to go on that level er in a way he's he's a very good friend if i say i got to do this he'll he'll he'll do it there's no problem there er but he will participate in these things because an artist has to be part of the world that he is in and that's what the world is like it's not only in the (xx) people and the language but to actually go into details and explanations er we ve- very quickly get into disputes and fights and so we we we leave that @@ </NS2>
<S5> er i mean he didn't describe the lines that you know he (xx) like er soft or attractive or give (xx) </S5>
<NS2> er well if he had any comments when when he was doing er sort of preliminary sketches with the portrait of me that there were past dozen of those and and and at some stage we had we had to show i had to show something in an in an exhibition and i said well can you choose two or three and he just chose them and then he said well i like this or whatever er they were they were not at all the ch- the choices that i would have chosen they were completely different so revealing in that sense erm now it is strange i think i think it's it's actually very important to remain an observer and to try not to get into the (xx) of an experiment where we have a relationship with a subject doing things (wholly) because er er we you then are on a basis where you don't really know what's what's happening and putting co- er complex things on his head and asking him to go in machines that's okay er that's just a challenge can i still draw under those conditions it's not it it's not interpreted by him as being a a guinea-pig i i don't know if i answered your question we'll talk about it later </NS2>
<P:06>
<S6> did you observe some any general patterns in the behaviour of the same (xx) while drawing the same model but in a different time i mean when he has been drawing his first first time he he describes (xx) behaviour and then drawing the second or the first drawing </S6>
<NS2> i haven't no no i haven't , no that that that that could be that could be interesting a bit difficult to set up because it's slightly artificial but , but yes no i will (xx) it would be interesting by the way when he two years later when he did the the other drawing er you you know i he didn't just just see my amazement that that we were l- looking at exactly the same lines he said that's not difficult it's like when you go to the supermarket shopping (xx) and you you you make a list and when you get to the s- to the supermarket you've you see that you've forgotten the list at home that doesn't matter you've written it so it's it's there that was his er his explanation </NS2>
<S6> quite interesting was for example that while observing your model you look first to the left eye and then so on <NS2> yes </NS2> but while drawing the actually she started from the other e- eye </S6>
<NS2> that's right he he usually starts with an eye he nearly always starts with an eye and he doesn't do the usual he never does the usual thing you know you know of of of making slight marks to to situate the face he doesn't do that he just draws out (xx) fro- from the eye usually </NS2>
<P:14>
<S1> okay well it seems to me that this class need coffee so there's a chance to ask more questions during the coffee break or later today <NS2> absolutely </NS2> and all all of the guest speakers will be here until tomorrow so you'll have (xx) thanks again thanks again </S1>
<45 MINUTE LUNCH BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<S8> okay so it seems that the technology is ready which means that everything is ready , my name is <NAME S8> i've promised to chair this latter part of our afternoon i come from the university of art and design i'm colleague of <NAME S4> and my background is in industrial design i'm an industrial designer by education so i'll try to bring in some <COUGH> design insight to this project and we have two very interesting presentations this afternoon at least based on the <COUGH> titles the first one will be given by <NAME S3> and then the second one by <NAME S7> and we can start your presentation <S3> [okay] </S3> [please] the floor is yours </S8>

<PRESENTATION USEMP04D by S3>

<S8> okay we are running a little bit late of our schedule but let's take a couple of questions anyway i'm sure you have something to ask </S8>
<S3> <WHISPERING> i won't take care of the questions </WHISPERING> </S3>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> nothing okay perhaps there's one </S8>
<NS2> er <NAME S3> you erm one question about erm [which you] </NS2>
<S3> [no that's] not fair i didn't ask you </S3>
<NS2> began to <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] to touch at the end when you were saying that looking in different directions can have different significances erm so that's where the concept of attention comes in we we're mostly basing all our work on on on the assumption that what the eye-tractor gives you as the the the focus of the eye is i- is what is where the information is being picked up erm </NS2>
<S3> yeah well [this gives you] </S3>
<NS2> [how happy are] you with with that </NS2>
<S3> er er well i'm not because of of wh- what i would like to do is create these er er environments er where if you control the context if you know the context er er then you can er er er literally read er er viewer's mind er er and the very short example would be the creation of a a personalised digital narrative so if i show you a very complex visual stimulus like a painting it's a and er people look at it and there's their typical exploration patterns with their different kinds of interests so let's say it's a renaissance woman portrait and er some of you will focus on the jewellery er <NS2> [mhm] </NS2> [er] or textile or lace and so on and now imagine that the application knew exactly and then it would give you er another er painting that would go in the direction that's particular to your [interest] <NS2> [yeah] yeah </NS2> so everyone will get a different part of the collection but everyone would be happy because they would be getting er er er what they were interested in </S3>
<S8> okay , one more question mhm-hm <NAME S1> </S8>
<S1> well did you discuss slide 54 </S1>
<S3> yes <COUGH> that one i actually e- erased because [@@] </S3>
<S1> [(xx)] how much that cost , what i mean really what (xx) </S1>
<S3> oh the 54 [okay] </S3>
<S1> [yeah] as er how much does it cost </S1>
<S3> oh how much does it co- oh i'm sorry er oh okay oh god you are very perceptive i have to track your eyes @from now on@ @@ er yeah we can discuss it later </S3>
<S8> can we do three hours of lecturing in a row without any break at all </S8>
<SU> no </SU>
<S3> no </S3>
<S8> okay five minutes then </S8>
<SU> <SIGH OF RELIEF> </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<5 MINUTE BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<S8> okay ladies and gentlemen please our last lecture this afternoon will , be a little bit more about design , please </S8>
<S3> mine was about design </S3>
<SS> @@ </SS>

<PRESENTATION USEMP04E by S7>

<S8> should we have questions </S8>
<S7> so if you have any questions </S7>
<S1> er two questions first one er the scan paths you showed almost all of them were cumulative where <S7> [yes] </S7> [you] have collected put together the er data from several users did you make any comparative studies between scan paths of different users </S1>
<S7> we did er but er as i said before erm for instance we we just did the scan paths of designers and non-designers we had some er interesting differences between these two and erm but erm in most it was most of our questions we were interested in related exploration so er we mainly er er took this er as a result </S7>
<S1> the other question is is er . what , yeah er we've been discussing about not using er eye-tracking alone but together with other <S7> [mhm-hm] </S7> [(xx)] er think about the (xx) level protocol <S7> yes </S7> did you do any any that kind of studies or whether it's the pure eye-tracking studies </S1>
<S7> erm er we only did er pure eye-tracking studies er except for post-test interviews er we asked (xx) er which car did you er er figure out to be the safest and why did you do that to get some more information but we didn't comba- combine it let's say with (xx) or something like that </S7>
<NS2> how do- how how did you determine the length of time that you su- submit the subject to to the gaze path er because i i would assume that if it's very long <S7> [mhm-hm] </S7> [then this] well in my experience the subject just gets bored and and <S7> [yes] </S7> [his] eye movements are showing other things but not and that er </NS2>
<S7> as i [said] </S7>
<NS2> [contrary] the very first ones are sometimes the most interesting </NS2>
<S7> yes er that is why we er er why we had er in most cases only er a very short time let's say six to to eight seconds <NS2> right </NS2> er as i said er when [we er use] </S7>
<NS2> [it's still quite long] </NS2>
<S7> a longer time er you have a a lot of of er er the same fixations <NS2> [yeah] </NS2> [they're] the same <NS2> yeah </NS2> what you think are (xx) </S7>
<S9> about the holistic viewing did you er study or find any any di- differences between different people er like was there a tendency for different people for formalistic viewing or was it related to the given task </S9>
<S7> it was related to the giv- er to the given task </S7>
<S9> so that [(xx)] </S9>
<S7> [we didn't] find any any specific er erm differences between er er different people </S7>
<S4> could you could you elaborate a bit about using designers as subjects you were using designers in some cases what can you learn by studying them and how [how does it (xx)] </S4>
<S7> [er on the one] hand erm er designers er know a lot of the products er you show er and also they are dealing with er with the questions er you pose er and er er with with these holistic questions er which we er put there er it wasn't useful er to have designers as subjects but er maybe there are some some other er areas er of research where it might be interesting to have er exactly designers </S7>
<S4> can you imagine some examples , i mean being being a sociologist i understand the point we we never want to study other sociologists because they understand what you're doing so everybody <SS> [@@] </SS> [(xx)] (xx) research did you do the same thing </S4>
<S7> m- might be interesting er mhm to analyse er er different er er s- er kind of designs er er if if the designers will will get the job er they will er have a different approach to what they er to what they did <S4> mhm </S4> [(xx)] </S7>
<NS2> [did] did the designers know that you were s- looking at gaze paths <S7> (pardon) </S7> did the designers know that what you were investigating was the gaze path that their eyes were following </NS2>
<S7> yes i mean mhm </S7>
<NS2> it's a difficult @problem that isn't it@ </NS2>
<S7> yeah yeah yeah </S7>
<NS2> i te- tend to tell them that that i'm interested in pupil dilatation because they can't do anything about it anyway can they <SS> @@ </SS> @but i think it only works once@ </NS2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> i have one question too er based on your results there seems to be two main strategies <S7> mhm </S7> for people to (xx) design objects there is the holistic view and then there are more specified more more pr- developed strategies of paying attention to some parts some details <S7> yeah mhm-hm </S7> er objects and and in a way you say that this holistic view is (xx) problem which makes the er gaze path studies not that er suitable for for some purposes er in a way the two main strategies could perhaps be used for something meaningful too er er could could you imagine that this kind of information could be used for some purpose it could be for (xx) pictures for for consumers for people and then erm check out which main strategy [they they choose] </S8>
<S7> [yes that might be] a possibility er for instance you could er think it over over in a sense er to er er i'm thinking of er interfaces er shown on the screen erm to blur them in advance the thing that in in the beginning so that you have to you are forced to have this holistic viewing because you cannot identify a specific er items er as er it's unclear so it's not er not clear to see and er er maybe it helps er to erm er to give an an overview and find about the er the composition of er of this interface for instance er erm when you showed the the er the example of drawing the S er and you said the other fixations were somewhere in the other part of the of the middle of the S and not on the on the line er this other could be er er some kind of of holistic viewing but you just er have an an impression of the wholes of the whole er format that you draw the S and you you check er the the proportions er where you put your eyes might be i don't know exactly </S7>
<NS2> yeah yeah it could well be yes well yeah </NS2>
<S7> but what er what we ex- expected er in er in the beginning that er er subjects er would scan an object er following its er er its contours but that never happened </S7>
<NS2> yes that's that's only happens in yarbus <S7> yeah </S7> i've never seen it happen anywhere else </NS2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S7> [@that is what we wanted@ @@] because we kn- we knew about it </S7>
<S3> it does <COUGH> happen if you put a a number of people's faces which is yarbus experiment and then you see very consistently that they're scanning going from face to face so you you get this kind of if you position the faces <NS2> [uh-huh yeah] </NS2> [at different heights] you you'll get exactly this er contour scanning [but not (xx) object] </S3>
<NS2> [right but but but not the] one that goes around </NS2>
<S3> no no no mhm mhm </S3>
<S6> erm did you try to use some unusual eye movement matrix like usually you use fixation duration or the fixation rate or things like that which are commonly used and maybe these are let's say 10 different but might it be a time now to find a new me- new measures which can be derived from the eye movements <S7> yes [i agree] </S7> [and give] give them new give them kind of meaning to make some kind of empirical studies which would support some new <S7> yeah </S7> new (development opportunities) </S6>
<S7> i i agree er it might be interesting er to to th- er to think about er different approaches er which at that time er er was a little bit difficult as er as i said er the er the tests were really time-consuming and er we didn't er do s- too many experiments on that but nowadays er first of all er the er er the scanning is much more exact than was er our er er equipment and it's much faster and so er it's easy to to try out different er things and you could also try out er different kind of of irregulations </S7>
<NS2> i i think that's very right because what what also happens with a with with a new with the new scanning equipment is that er the the the interpretation that the software offers is is is much more immediate and and easy so you always end up with the same for example fixation algorithm <S7> mhm-hm </S7> and and it may or may not be relevant to what you're doing that particular algorithm </NS2>
<S3> i have a suggestion that if <COUGH> the these new techniques allow also the pupil dilation measurement which er has er <NS2> that's [right] </NS2> [er er] gives the affective component so you what you can add to this is not just the duration of fixations of the what affective value it had and sometimes you can have a paradoxical situation that what had the greatest affective value is the least fixated because you don't want to look at it er <NS2> right [yeah] </NS2> [like] you know a spot of <NS2> [yeah] </NS2> [blood] like on a <COUGH> nice car or [whatever] </S3>
<NS2> [yeah] yeah yes </NS2>
<S8> okay we have reached the scheduled time of ending this session thank you everybody especially our speakers and i guess we can continue this discussion after this official part of the session during this evening and and and some of us tomorrow but let's call it for the official part today many thanks </S8>
<APPLAUSE>
