<TITLE: Shadow Dynasties. Politics of Memory and Emotions in Pakistani Women's Life-Writing
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: political science
EVENT TYPE: doctoral defence discussion
FILE ID: UDEFD110
NOTES: presentation UDEFP110 in Finnish, not transcribed

RECORDING DURATION: 95 min 56 sec

RECORDING DATE: 22.4.2005

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 3

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Italian; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50>


<S3> the title of <NAME S2>'s thesis shadow dynasties politics of memory and emotions in pakistani women's life-writing represent an interesting endeavour at mixing blending together different academic disciplines and recent theoretical political paradigms as the author herself declares the dissertation aims at i quote <READING ALOUD> drawing itineraries imaginary and real </READING ALOUD> interesting paths so to say that should take the reader along the difficult task of understanding women of a different and distant culture , difficult as it is the main aim of the research work is not to offer yet another account of women and islam or an ethnographic understanding or a sorry or an ethno- ethnographic resume of south asian feminism but more ambitiously to provide a deeper and different understanding of the life work living conditions culture fashions thoughts and feelings of three significant pakistani women , the dissertation brings together in an original way feminism literature anthropology political theory and south asian studies , <NAME S2> creatively succeeds in blending together the different traditions of thought sustaining her work with a remarkable amount of references for each one of the scholarly fields above mentioned , nevertheless according also to the intentions of the author herself the dissertation should not result as too bookish or academic in so far as it should provide an insight into the materiality of lives and bodies in ways that are distant and foreign to the dry theoretical prose typical of academic discourse , my first praise therefore goes to the ability <NAME S2> has er to avoid this dry theoretical prose and to the magnificent use er she makes of the english language this first praise is not er let's say secondary to the quality of the dis- dissertation as a whole since er one of the most important parts of the dissertation is not only what you write but how you write about these things how you connect how you enter the language and how you er transform so to say the use of the prose in order to achieve her most intended goal namely that of a possibility of cross-cultural dialogue or cross-cultural translation , er the dissertation er starts with a first general er and quite er er indepth er er explanation of the methodology er used in this dissertation the second part is er er (deserved) to the telling of these three significant er lifestories namely as er the candidate herself just stated the autobiography of er three eminent pakistani women begum ikramullah er sara suleri and benazir bhutto , and le- the third part of the dissertation if we want to roughly divide the dissertation is an attempt to to er practice to put into practice this cross-cultural translation in this way the dissertation mixes , i use this word which is not very academic word because i think it gives an idea of er the methodology uses used , mixes er political theory political science sociology anthropology women studies in a very very interesting way er , now i would like to start with my general remarks can we <S2> [yeah yes] </S2> [er with my questions can we sit] thank you <GETTING SEATED> <READING ALOUD> as a matter of fact at the beginning of your dissertation you devote some pages to the methodological explanation of your work , frequent reference throughout the text are made to personal choices of the methodology and to biographical i should say experience <S2> mhm-hm </S2> of how you , successfully or even unsuccessfully managed to mediate the understanding of this culture via your european or eurocentric cultural frame of reference , so my first impression is that your dissertation is first of a- first of all a theoretical or intellectual autobiography <S2> @mhm@ </S2> er an autobiography in order to narrate other autobiographies so i i think that it is interesting to notice that a woman writing on other women's writing feels the need to articulate her curiosity her interest by giving an account of herself i would therefore start this discussion by asking about this aspect , to what extent did you perceive it as essential to your dissertation to justify your choice of topic by narrating your own intellectual path through feminism post-colonial theories literature and poetry , in other words to avoid what you call the bookish or academic tone of most works dedicated to other culture you decide to justify yourself via a large number of books <S2> @@ </S2> via an autobiographia- autobiographical resume of your study , is this the price to pay to academia or is it simply that you realised that one cannot discard some theoretical positions unless she first got a chance to know and discuss them , <S2> mhm </S2> in my view a study that aspires to go deeper than mass media representations and cultural stereotypes that aims at understanding in a different way the lives and struggles of some pakistani women cannot simply expect to hear and report their voices in a sort of natural or undisturbed communication process that would take place naturally so to <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [say between women] my critique is therefore the following in order to discard the eurocentric option and understanding the theoretical frames produced in the west are not the answer or better are not the whole answer we must first be sure that we coming from that culture and frame of thought have deconstructed it so to say digested it and distanced ourselves from it not simply by refusing it </READING ALOUD> . [yes] </S3>
<S2> [yes] erm er i er , the reason for having so much autobiographical material in this study is to erm sort of get rid of the idea of the neutral impersonal researcher just writing er from the middle of nowhere but i have wanted to sort of show how i have myself got involved with these texts because it it it didn't just happen it was a long process that er started from a ver- very contingent event by walking into a second hand book store in helsinki and coming across sara suleri's study er her autobiography and almost sort of falling in love with the text at first sight and er having this kind of very powerful experience of learning through a single text and then er what happened afterwards was that the er research as such didn't start taking place it was very slow the gathering of the other texts and er collecting other materials wa- er it it wasn't as easy as i first expected and er i have wanted to include in this study some so-called field notes or what i'd say the feminist political scientist field notes er not to sort of er there is this risk that if you include a lot of material like that it may start seeming a little bit narcissistic nar- nar- <S3> [narcissistic] </S3> [narcist] yes an er , but but for me i have wanted to include in this work all my frustrations all my enthusiati- eth- enthusiasm and and all the little d- er sort of signs er er that show how ha- i have got involved with the texts and er also somehow show also , the sort of real encounters i have had with people with whom i've discussed these texts with pakistani er women feminists and also international scholars so there are many encounters from many different directions that i narrate , erm , i , there is because this is a PhD st- er thesis and you are sort of supposed to show your academic pathways your your sort of er roots towards er er learning something to to write about the process i have included er to be sure i have included also a lot of er western political theoretical references and quite a lot of references to western feminist theorising alongside with south asian women's er er literature and feminist theory but er i sort of er want to bring these two or or these many theoretical elements together er in the same study , and er what you what you er said about the european perspective erm i think that er it is like there is no single european perspective but there there of course are these er theoretical canons that we at the university have had to go through and they are quite common for many er fro- er mhm disregarding which which country we come from but er er i i also want to question that there would be one single european perspective to to un-learn from that especially er coming from this northern periphery i have also o- often felt quite erm sort of marginal in the company of some metropolitan theorists but er yes so this is my answer </S2>
<S3> okay er , yes erm well at the same time i think i still perceive that in your dissertation the theoretical framework er even if it brings together as you say european and south asian erm erm theoretical er studies threo- theoretical approaches er we all know that er there is a some kind of erm common discourse that travels through er boundaries er er there is a common er discourse that doesn't have er a strict national or continental belonging anymore erm and so at the same time erm i agree with you when you say that you tried to bring together european and non-european but on the other hand i would i would say that this non-european er er and especially the so-called post-colonial erm frame of reference er in so far as it is called post-colonial <S2> mhm </S2> it is a frame of reference that refers to and draws very much from the theoretical production of the , let's say colony or <S2> [yes] </S2> [colonising] a country <S2> [mhm] </S2> [er] so in some ways we cannot er separate the two we cannot er er put a very distinct separation between what is western and what is non-western and this is one <S2> [mhm] </S2> [of the] main problems as you know of the present discussion <S2> [mhm] </S2> [regarding] post-colonial studies but in your dissertation er and this is i think a very interesting quote because at some point after a long discussion of theoretical frameworks and can this be said can this be not said because it would result too er imperialistic you i er you do what i seem er to consider a political statement <S2> [mhm] </S2> [at] some point you take your position you take your stand and you say can texts be heard from their own locations am i able to hear the voices of the autobiographers and understand their experience also without reference to feminist theory but then again <S2> [mhm] </S2> [you say] something which is al- also more effective to my mind and just a second that i will find it , you say , can . stories basically be told also from ah here i found it <READING ALOUD>  there must be room for non-native readers to speak about literature that is not theirs <S2> mhm-hm </S2> to express interest in how the other as a positive affirmative concept sees the world even through translation , does not have to be an act of appropriation </READING ALOUD> so to my mind er your er , solution so to say even if it is not what i would call a theoretical or philosophical solution because as far as that er the dissertation is quite apparatical in a <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [philosophical sense] but you make a political er give a political solution in in the sense that you take , a stand <S2> [yes] </S2> [you] want to , translate you want to have a contact <S2> [yes] </S2> [how] would you , [speculate on this er] </S3>
<S2> [<SIGH>] i think that er reading literature from other continents than europe as an act er it has political consequences er for our daily lives here , and there because er it's erm er not everybody who studies er literature er from other cultures has to become some kind of area studies specialist but er it i think we have in these times nowadays when the borders are becoming higher and er er between continents politically er and er er access to europe is getting more and more difficult for people from other continents er it is erm er it is our political responsibility as citizens to continue reading texts from other cultures and er er this simple act of reading can as such er mhm it can i- it may i- it may seem somehow bookish but at the same time i think it also changes the way we er we do other things er i- it it it even changes our it can change our mundane daily activities even things like shopping this is a kind of activist's <S3> [yes] </S3> [approach] yes </S2>
<S3> this transformative [practice what er] <S2> [yes] yes </S2> er let me go back to the methodology er , you er make er a critical use of er western feminism erm or western feminist theory erm at the very beginning of the book when er mhm when you are justifying your methodology when you're narrating about your intellectual autobiography you refer to julia kristeva's essay er <S2> [mhm mhm-hm] </S2> [women's time] and state that it contains i quote <READING ALOUD> eternal icons and myths of femininity but not a single woman in flesh and action without the presence of living voices breeding words to analysis theorising women's subjectivities seemed hollow </READING ALOUD> page 22 <S2> mhm </S2> er my question is the following <READING ALOUD> the use of eternal icons and myths in relation to the understanding of female subjectivity , does not simply entail a reification of femi- of femininity as post-modern feminist would have it at least that is my reading <S2> @mhm@ </S2> but such use of er eternal icons and myths has played at least in the past a very important role mainly that of giving voice to a feminine genealogy <S2>  mhm-hm </S2> that seeks to depart from the male based path to liberation that under the name of emancipation pretended to represent a universal point of view in this sense i think eternal myths and icons serve also to question the perspective the western perspective which thinks that there is only an historical or necessarily historicised <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [path] towards liberation that there must be a path that needs to be fulfilled in order to arrive to a proper realm of freedom and justice <S2> mhm-hm </S2> women can find their own myths of liberation i think also outside the historicised perspective typical of the western modern <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [tradition] in this sense i think that eud- european feminism not only kristeva but also irigaray and cixous that you quote <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [in your] text represent very interesting and challenging position internal as t- they may be to the western tradition but at the same time very critical towards that tradition </READING ALOUD> </S3>
<S2> yes in this study of course i don't er read for example julia kristeva's whole production [and i i just] </S2>
<S3> [of course there's no need] </S3>
<S2> er this i- the reference is only to this particular [text] <S3> [yes] yes </S3> and it happens to be there because this text had really import- big importance in my life when i was a younger student and i was trying to work through er europe er the the sort of er e- er er european feminist genealogy and actually this was a very powering text to myself er er as a younger person <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and then er when i i i actually kristeva at the same time erm er she was also some kind of initiate- er in- initiator in this process because i remembered when when i started reading er sara suleri i'm i remembered kristeva's text women's time it had this er er my my memory went back to this text that okay that there is something in common going on here that there is this er effort to build alternative er genealogies alternative dynasties to male stream <S3> yes </S3> ways to write history so erm when i er express my criticism here actually at the same time it is a way to show her importance <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [at the] same time <S3> mhm-hm </S3> that there is i have a very ambivalent relation to her writing <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and then at the same time i must admit that i am much more er sort of er , i don't criticise cixous and irigaray as harshly as <S3> [yes] </S3> [i do] kristeva and same kinds of elements could surely be found also in the other two women philosophers' [thinking] <S3> [mhm] mhm-hm </S3> that they are not free or this of this kind of totalising sweeps but i er erm , i just felt that er er in this particular kristeva's text er when i when i started reading this together with the pakistani women's texts which were full of action <S3> [mhm] </S3> [and] full of er sort of very personal kind of words this er in this context it started to seem somehow hollow <S3> [mhm] </S3> [but] then in other instances if i if i read this the text in an other <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [context] i er the interpretation will be again different </S2>
<S3> yes from what you er now just said er i see that the the the role that er some feminist writing plays is perhaps er more important than what is actually showed er and what is actually spoken out so to say <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [in the text] er to my mind er my personal position would be and i don't know if you agree on this that er perhaps these so-called essentialist feminists <S2> mhm-hm </S2> er at some point can be more useful in the at least in the starting encounter with different women <S2> mhm-hm </S2> than the post-structuralists so to say or post-modern er feminist discourse which <S2> [yeah] </S2> [somehow] hinders from speaking at all with the [other] </S3>
<S2> [yeah] yes because er with with the so-called essentialist theorist you at least have something to hold on to <S3> yes </S3> and you have something to argue against you <S3> [yes] </S3> [have] very strong arguments against which you can position [yourself] <S3> [yes] yes </S3> but then with the post-structuralist it er er theorising it's it seems to somehow float , <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [that] you can't really take a stance towards anything that everything goes anything goes but then in the end there's this kind of nihilism that there is </S2>
<S3> mhm-hm [yes yes and i yes yes] </S3>
<S2> [very little left content material things] </S2>
<S3> and i also think that er it is much more shaped by the so-called western secular discourse <S2> mhm </S2> than the , the post-structuralist discourse is somehow the continuing the the so to say natural continuation of a <S2> [mhm] </S2> [secularised] western discourse <S2> mhm </S2> which makes it very difficult to encounter non-secular [discourses] <S2> [yes] yes </S2> whereas er the essentialist <S2> [yeah yeah mhm] </S2> [works of] irigaray of kristeva <S2> mhm-hm </S2> somehow er [counter this] </S3>
<S2> [there's this yeah] </S2>
<S3> secular discourse [and] </S3>
<S2> [and] there is er especially in the production of these three french feminist there's actually very strong spiritual <S3> yes </S3> stream going <S3> [yes] </S3> [on] there and that's why they may be text that can be er <S3> [absolutely] </S3> [that can] travel to <S3> [yes yes] </S3> [other cultures] and i have met many many indian and pakistani scholars who have felt that they they get a lot <S3> [mhm-hm mhm] </S3> [from their writing] because of this spiritual element </S2>
<S3> yes . er okay erm i would like to erm ask you another question in relation to the use of feminist er theory as to the use of theory as such you refer to er the very interesting position of another western feminist adrienne rich <S2> mhm-hm </S2> er and to her very very vocative formulation according to which i quote <READING ALOUD> theory the seeing of pattern is a dew that rises from the earth and collects in the rain and returns to earth over and over but if it doesn't smell of the earth it isn't good for the earth </READING ALOUD> this is a quote [that you] <S2> [mhm-hm] yes </S2> er report from adrienne rich er page 36 <READING ALOUD> in this respect you seem to refuse the option of simply apply feminist or post-colonial theory to your field of research but instead to find voices that have the potential of becoming translated across cultures page 37 , you speak of the process of re-writing <S2> mhm-hm </S2> rather than applying a theory <S2> [mhm] </S2> [to] a text to interpret a text you set for yourself the task of re-writing women's writing of appropriating critically the life stories of three wo- three women , and expose them so to say to a cross-cultural dialogue that's what er <S2> mhm </S2> mhm this activity from what i gather is also a map of passivity as you say <S2> mhm </S2> , in so far as not only it involves representation of others' text and critical self-presentation but it is also defined but by not only by what we do by but also but by what is done to us , and , parenthetically in this respect you also refer in a footnote to the muslim tradition of sufism </READING ALOUD> and i wish there were more on that <S2> [mhm] </S2> [except] just a footnote , but , my critique is the process of re-writing is an authorial act you are , presence you are an <S2> [mhm] </S2> [author] which implies a strong subject position and in my reading this is what also teresa de lauretis means when she speaks of re-writing <S2> [mhm] </S2> [as a] political act , <READING ALOUD> how do you reconcile your task of re-writing the gendered post-colonial autobiographical subject with the intention of not colonising that subject and you , since the problem of <S2> [mhm] </S2> [understanding] and incorporating is always present , in other words how do you , attenuate the sovereign function of theory in your work , in order not to in order not to produce the post-colonial gendered subject you wish to find , in other words again how do you attenuate the ethnologist in yourself </READING ALOUD> </S3>
<S2> mhm , mhm , <S3> @@ </S3> @@ this was a tough one <S3> @@ </S3> @@ erm , i erm i think you have to erm begin er by sort of situating the theory what kind of role theory plays er in this study and er these moments of er er er what is done to us or or what you what you read out from here er you said that there is this er i i write about lots of instances where i feel that er i haven't quite actively chosen certain research questions but these women's texts sort of brought these questions as relevant to me and to be honest i i w- was simply reading these texts for many years without really having any kind of terribly precise research questions <S3> mhm-hm </S3> that i wanted to just keep company with these texts and see that if i read @them dozens and dozens@ of times whether these texts will give me questions this was the way i worked erm i er , i do have these moments in this study where erm this kind of a more militant feminist subject who er actively re-writes cultures emerge and then i have some other instances which i think they they become more dominant in passages where i write through er small passages of fiction that er i think er these moments when i have let myself go or i have let myself write er in in in so-called other voice or where i experiment where with fiction those are have been the m- powerful moments for me when i have sort of let go when i have let go some of the theorising the heavy baggage that i @i tend to@ er use here in the main text that there is the- i- i i agree with you there is this kind of er play <S3> [mhm (action)] </S3> [going on between these] two erm er it is this is not a , there is not one authorial voice of the researcher but there is at least a dialogue or there can be many positions and i have been struggling with this question a <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [lot] and i have i don't even think that i have solved it <S3> mhm </S3> and it is it is a very difficult paradox </S2>
<S3> erm , i would have had another question referring to this but your answer brings me to a different questions that er goes into the content let's say of the <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [text] er . i think that there is a tension in your dissertation between the theoretical framework which you , are very well read in <S2> @mhm-hm@ </S2> but at the same time you seem to refuse to apply and the , er so to say narrative literary er po- even poetical elements of the texts [themselves] <S2> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S2> er . and to go back to my er previous er , statement when i said that you tend to solve this problem of speaking of cross-cultural dialogue by simply locating yourself by simply making a political statement i think that also the choice of these three autobiographies <S2> mhm </S2> is a political statement in itself in so far as er these are three eminent pakistani <S2> [mhm] </S2> [women] begum ikramullah was the first female woman in the pakistani parliament we all know who benazir bhutto is and was and sara suleri is a <S2> [yeah] </S2> [probably] not a public figure but sh- </S3>
<S2> but well er sh- in the university circles at least she is <S3> she is  </S3> a very known [post-colonial author] </S2>
<S3> [yes yes] so er . to my mind er . the choice of these three women of these three eminent and even powerful <S2> [mhm] </S2> [women] somehow er , it's not er it's an important choice <S2>  yeah </S2> because i think their own autobiographical voice , is strong enough not to be er colonised <S2> [mhm] </S2> [let's] say by your <S2> [@yes@] </S2> [autobiographical] voice , er so i think that when you say that er <READING ALOUD> representing the lives of powerful muslim women , may still be needed in the west to subs- to subvert the genre misery catalogues of the lack of human rights in the muslim world and bringing up images of strong articulate resourceful pakistani women in the western academia is surely a way of interfering in the distorted imagery on muslim difference  </READING ALOUD> , er my questions then refers to er excuse if i have long quotes but they @are@ [@necessary for@ for the] </S3>
<S2> [@okay yeah yeah@] @go ahead@ </S2>
<S3> er in relation this my next question refers to a quote that you report by ania loomba <S2> mhm-hm mhm </S2> in which she affirms that i quote <READING ALOUD> colonialism intensified patriarchal relations in colonised lands often because native men increasingly disenfranchised and excluded from the public sphere became more tyrannical at home they seized upon the home and the woman as emblems of their culture and nationality </READING ALOUD> . unquote <S2> [mhm mhm yeah] </S2> [page 65] how do you relate to this what is your location here so to say , how do you understand this difference , is it possible to g- to grasp a post-colonial specificity which could be , separated isolated from the western influence question mark is it <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [possible] to s- really separate if patriarchy itself is a also a effect of colonialism but at the same time don't you think that patriarchy , even if it is a western effect it also has been reinforced by already present power relations </S3>
<S2> mhm-hm mhm . there are domestic patriarchies there are imported patriarchies and er these surely there are no pure states the- they are <S3> [yes yes] </S3> [always they are] always sort of mixed up <S3> yeah </S3> and er in this study i have er tried to show for example these three women's er relations to the important men in their lives but at the same time i have not wanted to elaborate too much or or to emphasise too much because i see in all these three texts sort of powerful narrative er ru- moments or or or or passages in which the women are there simply by themselves and doing er doing er lo- political acts as female citizens without reference to their men but then er er the dialogue there there is this er , erm er you can't for example read benazir bhutto's er autobiography the daughter of the east without er studying er er his er er fath- her her father's er long political career and how it affected her life and a- as a- as she n- she narrates her life in the sense that she was planning to become er diplomat in the <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [pakistani] foreign service and er after er her father er got first jailed er for two years and then executed it her the the f- sh- er er her political career started from these facts that in the sense sort of er er her becoming a political agent is somehow determined </S2>
<S3> by the [father yes] </S3>
<S2> [by the father's] father's death <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and er this is er er you can call this kind these kinds of pacts feminism but at the same time you have to you can't only read that er there are also other kinds of story lines going on there <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and there are other moments where she doesn't constantly she doesn't always refer to her father and there are l- lots of er er in these stories i have actually wanted to show how the women interact with other women and if there are these kinds of women's spaces women's political spaces where erm er there isn't always reference to the men as significant others <S3> mhm-hm </S3> so erm i don't know if i have fully answered your <S3> [mhm] </S3> [question] but you can sort of throw [it back to me] </S2>
<S3> [yes now i] i am simply wondering whether mhm , patriarchy as a category can give us some er hints at understanding er power relations <S2> [mhm] </S2> [in] that country <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [is it] a valuable category or isn't it a valuable [category] </S3>
<S2> [yes] erm i don't think i use the category <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [of patriarchy] very much <S3> [mhm] </S3> [in the] following <S3> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S3> [analysis when i] when i proceed but er here i think er what ania loomba is referring to here and how i understood it i think she is quite a lot actually paraphrasing here the work of frantz fanon and er er i think er because er fanon was writing solely qui- quite a lot from the perspective of the native man </S2>
<S3> yes [absolutely (right)] </S3>
<S2> [and er] this is er er this has been a kind of learning process for me because er i think through fanon i have especially er i have learned a lot and then i have learned to criticise a lot that he does excellent work on the pont- portrayal of the emergent middle classes who became politically active <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and the power relations <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [between] men and women <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [in] colonies well er to start with algeria but then er the two two er er , i think his analysis can be applied in other <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [colonies] also <S3> [mhm] </S3> [ex-british] colonies <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and er this is i think er thi- thi- i i i want to show all these routes that i've taken and this ania loom- loomba's citation on the patriarchy it is it is a comment on frantz fanon but i don't do it directly here <S3> mhm-hm </S3> erm i don't continue to to read fanon </S2>
<S3> i simply thought that this quotation is a very good example of <S2>  yeah </S2> erm erm of an analysis er that can be cross-cultural in so <S2> [mhm] </S2> [far as] patriarchy as a category can work also in er this er erm let's say post-colonial context <S2> mhm </S2> because exactly of these er <S2> [yes] </S2> [power] relations <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [you know] and i think it is still a very good er at least from my experience er of er , fighting between er er two different models of woman and a <S2> [mhm] </S2> [woman] has become ps- this so to say the , the prey around which you know east and west er islam and west fight because there [is a] </S3>
<S2> [yes] and then the woman becomes an object whether <S3> [absolutely] </S3> [we should] modernise her or not or whether we we should educate her or not but then the women's own agency is forgotten <S3> [exactly exactly] </S3> [completely in these kinds] of generalisations </S2>
<S3> exactly , erm . now i need to go @back to the@ m- methodological questions again er , when you talk about er . the importance of er avoiding er a detached position of being too distant from your subject matter er you refer for example to two er mhm authors one is again adrienne rich politics of lo- location and the other one is boyarin and <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [the politics] of memory , er where he emphasises the importance of intersubjectivity , or , what i would call the relational dimension of every human life mhm-hm <READING ALOUD> every human being cannot be considered as a separated unit as an isolated being that owes existence only to himself </READING ALOUD> , human being's not an object as we just said er of study but it's a being that relates and speaks <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [to] me to the author to the researcher addresses to me her , needs or her desires her values calls out for a relationship <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [therefore] i really appreciate your er refusal of er this kind of supposed objectivity of er like social sciences er point of view er . yet er it goes back to autobiography again er , you refer to the importance of intersubjectivity rel- relational er dimension er , and you seem to criticise this individualistic model typical of the modern <S2> [mhm] </S2> [political] tradition <S2> mhm </S2> er there are ties that go beyond rationality beyond mere utilitarianism that determine our being . er yet the term autobiography i know that you don't like the <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [term] autobiography but the term autobiography er from er etymological point of view refers to a biostatis <S2> [@mhm-hm@] </S2> [autostas] to a life that is autonomous er , so , i think that there is always the er danger there of er . autobiography as the supposed narration of a subject that is always in charge of himself a subject that is autonomous that is independent that is rational but at the same time a subject that has also very strong narcissistic element <S2> [mhm] </S2> [narcissism] is one of the <S2> mhm </S2> er most frequent er critiques er of the use of autobiography , <READING ALOUD> so it seems to be this narcissistic element seems to be an obstacle to your idea of reading and writing as a plural act of mut- mutual understanding or as an act of cross-cultural translation . in your intentions you wish not only to speak about them but to speak with them in a give and take <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [relationship with the] text , and in this i perceive some kind of er wishful @thinking@ <S2> @@ </S2> in so far as after all as we just said you have to do with three strong and powerful women , the personalities of which are quite safe and secure in their own autobiographies </READING ALOUD> so </S3>
<S2> yes erm i er hope that i have somehow erm managed to so- show the difference between these three texts and their strategies to deal with the autobiographical eye erm i probably i i tell here that er er the oldest text begum ikramullah's from purdah to parliament which was er written in nine er 1963 is written very much in the fashion of a proper political autobiography it has this kind of narrative <S3> yes </S3> er strict focus on public events and if she writes a- she does write about the family and she does write about the domestic armer- arrangements but they are somehow erm subordinated to the political events to history to to rallies on the streets to er to her own process of becoming a political activist canvassing votes in different provinces and things like that erm here in this er in the oldest text here , the sort of individualist path is strongest present and i would assume that erm there erm ikramullah has er very well internalised the sort of western [politician's] <S3> [(yeah sure)] mhm-hm </S3> er way to present herself and er she er writes very seriously in this mode of a proper politician what the what @wha- ha- ha- how@ a proper politician should write about public events at the same time er this kind of er voice doesn't make the text particularly narcissistic because at the same time she constantly er emphasises the fact that i a- i am not here only to talk about my own success but i write this book in order to empower the future generations of pakistani women to do the same , of course there is this kind er there is this kind of exemplary lives <S3> mhm-hm </S3> narration <S3> mhm-hm </S3> but er as this book shows er these kinds of narratives were actually quite popular in the muslim world <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [especially] in countries <S3> mhm </S3> that had a strong movement of <S3> [mhm] </S3> [modernism] i refer here quite a lot to egypt </S2>
<S3> yes if i [can just] </S3>
<S2> [and yes] </S2>
<S3> interrupt you because [then we can ha- we can have] </S3>
<S2> [mhm-hm yes we can it is better] </S2>
<S3> a dialogue this er erm answer you just gave me er , i think it's very important because it also testifies that there are the cultural and political context being different <S2> mhm </S2> er is er somehow er explanation for er the political use (as) she makes of <S2> [mhm yes yes] </S2> [a strong subjectivity] let's no even call it [narcissistic but] <S2> [no no not] at all </S2> er needed strong political <S2> [mhm] </S2> [subjectivity] er now , to my mind er your dissertation in the use of these three eminent women or let's let's take the two <S2> [mhm mhm mhm] </S2> [political eminent] figures bhutto and <S2> ikram- </S2> ikramullah erm is an act of er female empowerment <S2> mhm-hm </S2> i think this is one of the most important aspects of your dissertation <S2> [mhm] </S2> [and] yet you say yourself that this is only a partial legitimation of your work er , and it is yes i- i quote er it is <READING ALOUD> only an external legitimation from the for the present study </READING ALOUD> , whereas you don't want just to fill in the gaps of a history <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [that has excluded] women or does not present women erm i think that on the other hand apart from this function of filling the gaps er the the function of telling the stories of these powerful women er with the differences that you d- have just highlighted and i think er i will come to this later but i think that this difference er is more present and it's more interesting in the narration of ikramullah w- than in the <S2> [yes yeah] </S2> [bhutto narration] , so why do you think it is only external it is only an accessory er aspect of your work </S3>
<S2> oh i hope that i @don't@ say it er as an accessory <S3> mhm-hm </S3> erm i have also erm er i mhm i have probably said it er little bit too strongly there [in the beginning] <S3> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S3> that actually the theme of empowerment arises then through the analysis much stronger than i <S3> [yes okay okay , yes] </S3> [initially claim @that is er@ i i now] that you say you point this out i realise it myself of course erm i have here in this study also sort of i i <SIGH> es- especially in chapter five where i deal with the memories related to food i have also this literary critical er perspective or cultural studies perspective of a talking about the aesthetic pleasures and er er the er the materiality of touch and all these er er then i i elaborate quite a lot also on the textile metaphor used <S3> yes </S3> to talk about subject in south asian feminist writing and er so er but the erm the empowerment er theme it is one of the themes it's not the only theme but erm er i would i hope that i don't give the ip- impression that it would be an accessory <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [or] yeah </S2>
<S3> erm . going on with the erm analysis of your work er you , you refer often to what you called materialist feminism as your point of departure , but at the same time your title refers to a politics of memory and emotions , erm <READING ALOUD> what i would like to question is your continuous reference to a materialist dimension whereas you do very seldom refer to a strictly economic or what i would call <S2> [yeah] </S2> [materialistic] er frame of analysis as regards er the histories you take into account , i don't want you to question the validity or productivity of feminist <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [marxism] or marxist feminism but what strikes me in your dissertation is the theoretical kind of pledge of allegiance to materialism and at the same time the empirical absence basically of such a dimension </READING ALOUD> it is not a problem to me this absence <S2> [@@] </S2> [but er] it is curious that you seem to want to adhere to materialism and at the same time er i think that what you do in your dissertation you talk about a material dimension rather that a materialistic dimension <S2> yes </S2> but this is just a question that <S2> [yes] </S2> [material] being of course er er body skin [and er] <S2> [mhm-hm] yes </S2> this feminist kind of </S3>
<S2> yes i understand exactly what you are trying to ask er it is a er i don't really get so far in any kind of systematic class analysis based on eco- hard economic data and that would not even be appropriate <S3> [yes] </S3> [in] a study of autobiographies as everybody understands but er i try to , i try to somehow er use er certain ideas er that i have learned from certain marxist theorists and i have i have tried to er bring forth in this er in this study the sort of er very every-day life of the women writers their er their very mundane contexts <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and i have wanted to show them also working <S3> [mhm-hm mhm , mhm] </S3> [in labour doing their every they- day things] and i see at the background here however this kind of historical materialist dream <S3> mhm-hm </S3> but i can't prove things with any kind of hard data that any kind <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [of systematic] that kind of analysis <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [would] need but i have er mhm a- actually this kind of turn that i have taken has h- only happened kind of recently and i don't er er i- i- i don't explain it well enough in this book because i have only recently come to realise that er er i have gotten quite a lot of inspiration from the british cultural studies <S3> [mhm mhm-hm] </S3> [idea of cultural materialism] and that is again <S3> [mhm mhm-hm] </S3> [a new discourse] that er has <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [has caused] a lot of debate whether it's useful or not but er , erm i think that my study of emotions i sometimes i- i i try to find these kinds of structures of feeling which would have a [historical base] </S2>
<S3> [yes i very] much [appreciate that i very much] </S3>
<S2> [yes yes that is] </S2>
<S3> appreciate the non-psychoanalytical </S3>
<S2> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S2>
<S3> [analysis] </S3>
<S2> [@@] [@thank you@ @@] </S2>
<S3> [that i really @appreciate@ er] and in this sense of course i agree it is a material dimension but <S2> [mhm] </S2> [er] er to me perhaps a a different background er this is what er mhm some sort of er feminist discourse has s- always done without perhaps it comes as you say from this you know tradition but but <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [doesn't] that has never er so to say justified itself as , s- as belonging to the stream of of what we traditionally call materialistic </S3>
<S2> there is too much stuff in this book about the @@ theoretical background [of @materialism there is too much of it i realise it now@ @@] </S2>
<S3> [@@ that's that's there is too much but at the same time er] i think it is it is very er interesting and er and it is also er this i w- i want to say parenthetically it is also very er useful instrument for people that want to er approach the at least the post-colonial world there are the <S2> [mhm] </S2> [post-colonial] intellectual production has a very good bibliography </S3>
<S2> i was i was strongly advised to omit that the- that passage or that that part of discussion all together [that you don't need it in this study] <S3> [mhm mhm-hm ah] a-ha </S3> and for some reason it was important <S3> [mhm yes] </S3> [to me at that] stage and i didn't do that </S2>
<S3> so materialism brings me to the next question and namely the question of class er er , and what i find interesting and i realise now that we are , going around the same matter all the time that your women the women that you speak about are strong women belonging to the er , middle high middle class mhm <S2> [yeah] </S2> [mhm] you don't speak of the subaltern so to say </S3>
<S2> no not at all </S2>
<S3> but in your own words you speak of the elite complicitors with the empire with sub- with subjects whose voices were encouraged to emerge whose bodies mattered , <READING ALOUD> what is the political importance of studying this specific elite , complicitors with the empire and representing exactly that social and cultural group against the hegemony of which the subaltern studies project for example has re-assessed the question of post-colonial studies how would you justify your choice of listening not to the grassroots counter-memories of colonial oppression but to three important women whose families were key important players in imperial politics </READING ALOUD> </S3>
<S2> i have a very practical reason for this <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [and er] mhm it is good that i get to say this er in this situation erm i was introduced to pakistani culture through texts through the medium of english language and anythi- mhm almost anything that is available in the english language as i yet don't have er knowledge of the urdu language enough to get get materials in that language or to go and live in that culture and do anthropological work there <S3> mhm-hm </S3> with people with living voices i am i have to be brutally honest <S3> mhm-hm </S3> this was the autobiographical material that i could at this moment <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [come] across and for me and and for my audiences here in the western western academia even this has been has been int- er has been er somehow enhancing our knowledge <S3> [mhm mhm-hm] </S3> [of south asia] and er er i think er it is a starting point <S3> mhm-hm </S3> but er any kind of intellectual interest <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [in] pakistani political cultures in the future <S3> [mhm] </S3> [i] wouldn't i wouldn't continue <S3> mhm-hm </S3> sort empowering those who are already <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [strong] that the next step from [this] <S3> [mhm] mhm </S3> if i ever get the possibility <S3> yes </S3> would be </S2>
<S3> yes yet yet i think there is a more er mhm profound reason <S2> [mhm] </S2> [rather] than this the rather than the what you just said which i think is of course a a good reason but er . you know this hindrance at speaking of the subaltern <S2> [mhm] </S2> [of which] gayatri <S2> [mhm] </S2> [spivak] speaks er mhm so i think that in some ways er perhaps unconsciously the choice er was er of female er subjects that you could er listen to that that <S2> [mhm-hm mhm] </S2> [had a voice a strong] voice they were not just simply er you know subaltern unheard voice <S2> [mhm] </S2> [subaltern] impossible to <S2> [@mhm@] </S2> [tell] voice , and just to er er be er a little bit er in- i would like to quote er erm a sentence by erm , south asian feminist scholar which doesn't appear in your <S2> [mhm-hm but yeah] </S2> [in your text but er er] nirmal puwar i don't <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [know] if you know her </S3>
<S2> no i don't </S2>
<S3> and she writes , <READING ALOUD> the body of the subaltern female is er the text upon which a whole array of academic fantasies an anxieties are written , the benevolence of charity the calling for salvation the guilt of class and racial privilege the excitement of exotica as well as metropolitan hybridity the longing for revolutionary change and the search for ethical novel all hover around the hallows of these objects , the pages of their novels autobiographies and art work represent highly detailed and complex puzzles for academics to while away whole sunday afternoons and sabbaticals </READING ALOUD> </S3>
<S2> @oh@ [@@] </S2>
<S3> [i think er this is er i think this is a very er @@] </S3>
<S2> that is very er descriptive [@@] </S2>
<S3> [@@] erm it's called it's a book called south asian women in the diaspora <S2> a-ha </S2> er , but mhm okay this position you know resembles that of others you report in the dissertation bell hooks <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [for example] or chandra mohanty and spivak herself but in my view your choice of non-subaltern women <S2> mhm-hm </S2> non-subaltern women and their biographies has something to do with the possibility of avoiding the unconditional praise of the subaltern as such er now then i will go to the , later er i- after you answer this i want to go to two examples in your text er but would you agree on this or would you just think that it is they are still nevertheless subaltern because they are south asian or would you think that , er you can avoid this post-colonial er erm mhm critique and speak of three women because they are strong women and non not subaltern women </S3>
<S2> first of all this term subaltern is a theoretical innovation <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [in the] sense that er i don't [s- think] </S2>
<S3> [even if] it is a grimesian er </S3>
<S2> it is [and] </S2>
<S3> [word] </S3>
<S2> then it comes er <S3> [yeah yeah yeah] </S3> [@it has a very strong european@] history <S3> yeah </S3> and er then on the other hand i much appreciate what the subaltern studies group in calcutta has done <S3> [yes] </S3> [and] very powerful research i wouldn't by any means want to somehow er erm mhm tha- take the value away from that kind of study but i want to ask , sort of what is the role of academic research in the first place that that quote about the <S3> [yes yes] </S3> [@er whiling away the@] @sunday afternoons@ <S3> and </S3> fantasising about the [subaltern] <S3> [mhm] yeah </S3> i er don't see thas- that as a terribly advanced et- ethical position or any kind of a er if if they if if if scholars like this even though they have access to people who er usually don't speak in academic work erm it's like er , erm they usually write about these people in a metropolitan european language publish their stories in in monographs which are being published in many de- years delay and the people who are being written about never get <S3> [mhm-hm yes , yeah] </S3> [the books they never actually have access to the stories which have been written about them] so in a sense er to whom is this research <S3> [yeah] </S3> [useful] who er and er is there any kind of political promise <S3> [absolutely] </S3> [in that kind] of research </S2>
<S3> i i agree on this and er your stance er that you took at the beginning er regarding the political responsibility that you feel [towards] <S2> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S2> people that you met and <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [and er] er i think here's something else er and i think that your dissertation explains this er or is a demonstration of this in so far as you keep problematising your own position there you keep er you give a good a- account yourself i think of the problem of the commodification [of the subaltern] <S2> [yeah yeah] yeah </S2> which is er perhaps not a problem in finland or even italy but it is a problem in the , <S2> [mhm it is yeah mhm] </S2> [anglophone world absolutely] mhm-hm , er now i would like to two erm , autobiographical er excerpts that you have in your text er erm i will tell you later why i only have two and i don't have three <S2> [@@] </S2> [although the] autobiographies are three , the first one is er , page 172 and you have already quoted it in your [er] </S3>
<S2> [@oh@] , it was the @same@ </S2>
<S3> in your l- in your lectio er , and it refers er to , begum ikramullah mhm autobiography er when she speaks about her servants <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and er of course er , the class position of a person like ikramullah depended er allowed her to er go into public life because she had er her house er taken care by er servants <S2> mhm </S2> er and this is very er <S2> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S2> [very] common er for for her class in in pak- in pakistan er but what you problematise is the fact that she er doesn't name the servants the servants remain nameless er and she praises these servants because they are precious to her but she doesn't give them a name <S2> mhm-hm </S2> an she only gives a name to the english nanny who is called helen <S2> helen @mhm@ </S2> i just give a a quote of of this er of ikramullah <READING ALOUD> the type of servants was becoming rare by the time i set up my house but i was fortunate to have found a set that had many of these old-fashioned virtues and i was consequently envied by my friends , there is no doubt that had i not been so fortunate i could not have given my time to political and social work as i did for i am not one of those social workers who is indifferent to our home i could go about canvassing votes for the muslim league only if i was sure that my house was well run and that my children would be getting their meals on time  </READING ALOUD> er , now you re- your reaction to this is and again <S2> @@ </S2> i quote gut reaction , <READING ALOUD> goodness only the white servant has a name talk about colonial complicity and role-reversal she can afford an english nanny she employs a white woman and wants the brits out as a rulers amazing confidence how can she write like that how can she write about her servants just as a set of values and just give a name to the only western person there </READING ALOUD> second reaction politics of location <READING ALOUD>  who am i to judge her why am i so bothered by this , the fact that she does not give space to servants in a political autobiography hardly makes her a traitor to the soil of her land , think of political autobigo- -ography as a genre with convention , would male politicians even mention what enable them to work outside the house hardly , this woman mentions the servants and whisks them away as a reader i catch a glimpse of her crew toiling away but this is all class question is closed </READING ALOUD> <S2> @@ </S2> , you have a problem here , with er this difference we are dealing <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [here with a difference] with a cultural difference <S2> mhm-hm </S2> because then you have a what you call a <S2> [@@] </S2> [northern european social democratic bias @@] where you don't er really er admit that somebody can have servants in the @first@ <S2> [@yeah yeah@ @@] </S2> [@place@ and then second place not even give them a name] er . <S2> [@@] </S2> [can you] please tell us , how you have elaborated this difference , what is the solution you kind of gave to this er , cultural clash ki- somehow </S3>
<S2> well er if @i@ if i bring this now to contemporary finland and the crumbling away of the welfare state <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and thinking erm of these er new kinds of s- domestic services that you can buy as products you don't buy a servant but you buy er certain hours of cleaning time <S3> mhm-hm </S3> er and er i could well imagine than that in in ten 20 years time there could be autobiographies published here with the same kind of mentality er a woman writing how happy she is that her house is a perfectly <S3> [mhm] </S3> [organised] and she can come to a clean home <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [and] there is no mess because somebody while she has been away has taken care of that erm that is er i have worked er through this very dramatised passage er through er certain personal memories of a finnish history and my own family background as well that there have been <S3> yes </S3> er er and er er thinking that this is not anything that would be so this this this idea that there shouldn't be any servants <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [anywhere] is er er is actually quite new also here and er but it is the it is the position it's the position of the house help in the sense that er er i have had a difficult time understanding that er some person is er sort of of all her life tied to work in a house that there is no promise <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [that] er to er any kind of social mobility <S3> mhm-hm </S3> whereas sort of er er the maids whose lives i have heard about here <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [it has] for them been only a [temporary] <S3> [mhm-hm] yeah </S3> phase of life erm i have no sol- no final solution to this problem and i don't think that kind of solution could even be possible because we are talking about two societies which are [constantly in change] </S2>
<S3> [yes but but] my er er , my position would be that you have found a solution <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [in the] sense that er through this practise of a politics of location you say i have been a maid myself </S3>
<S2> yes i have <S3> [right] </S3> [been] a maid @@ </S2>
<S3> now i like this because er it really gives er example of how er mhm so to say er , positioning oneself in different er situations can allow a broader er okay a broader er frame of understanding but at the same time you didn't give er like the academic answer would have been i have an idea of what individual is <S2> [@mhm@] </S2> [i have] an idea of of what <S2> [@@] </S2> [egalitarianism] is i <S2> [mhm] </S2> [have] an idea of what <S2> [mhm] </S2> [emancipation] is <S2> [mhm] </S2> [which is] , european <S2> @yeah@ yeah </S2> it is not er er it is a cultural difference because of this and this and this <S2> mhm </S2> instead of doing this you have given a erm i think a more successful er , solution so to say to this er problem of encounter <S2> mhm </S2> a problem of difference problem of you didn't simply erm erm , you didn't simply put it in these categories or academic er conceptual frames [but you tried to] </S3>
<S2> [yeah i wouldn't li-] </S2>
<S3> w- work it through your own experience </S3>
<S2> yes i wouldn't like to have any abstract theory of <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [egalitarianism] in this <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [particular] context <S3> mhm-hm </S3> er this is er er one of the passages in the book that er still sort of keeps me very much occupied <S3> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S3> [and er] even to the extent that er here there could be a new research theme <S3> [yes] </S3> [emerging] mhm </S2>
<S3> erm , so in some ways as you say this passage has er you have worked through this <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [passage] not only erm in the writing process but also at <S2> [yeah] </S2> [kind of] existential er dimension there is another er mhm passage that i would like to quote and it refers to sara suleri's meatless days er it is at page 213 and 214 <S2>  mhm-hm </S2> where sara suleri speaks of her grandmother , er dadi the paternal grandmother <S2> mhm-hm </S2> , er , <READING ALOUD> who moved her thin-pure urdu from meerut a city in the urdu speaking heartland of united provinces to lahore to wait for the arrival of her son from england to take care for her of her </READING ALOUD> , at page 214 there is a quote er by sara suleri er <READING ALOUD> dadi was peeved she had long since dispensed with any loyalties larger than the pitiless give-and-take of people who are forced to live together in the same place and she resented independence for the distances it made , she was not among those who on the 14th of august unfurled flags and festivities against the backdrop of people running and cities burning </READING ALOUD> this is suleri's quote and then i quote your own words <READING ALOUD> dadi's loyalties are not in india or in pakistan but only within the immediate family circle , she lives with sara's family but her relationship with god is more immediate than with anyone else , she spends her days on the courtyard and roof terrace of the family compound with her quran a metal basin for washing hands and a brass water pot which no-one else was pure enough to touch she converses with god otherworldly and comes up with the idea that women are holier than men <S2> @@ </S2> if heaven lies upon the feet of women according to the prophet's hadith the men live as though they were unsuckled things </READING ALOUD> , now er . i think that this passage is extremely interesting as far as er . difference again we're talking a <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [difference] type of difference <S2> mhm-hm </S2> there was class er and here is religion <S2> mhm-hm </S2> er , you have speculated long on that previous er example you haven't speculated on this i think you dismissed it quite er , fast </S3>
<S2> i have , now [mhm yeah @@] </S2>
<S3> [mhm yes whereas] whereas i think that er one this is very precious example of er er female er religiousness er female primacy in religion for <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [example] in islam something <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [that is] very very er odd to a western stereotypical way of looking at islam erm and this would be to me would be a sort of a instance where one could have really tried to er . go more in depth and er tried to understand this er female specificity somehow er <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [which] er erm , there are er many studies on a erm on theology made by women and in in the west er , and er mhm . <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [also italian feminism] has has worked a lot on this aspect of er er mhm female re- reli- religious er behaviour or religious er er values er but i think that here again we have a northern @european bias@ [@@] </S3>
<S2> [we do @@] [and a] </S2>
<S3> [rather] than a southern [@european@] </S3>
<S2> [yes we] do @@ we do have here and er er for example i have focused very much here actually on dadi's historical geographical er pattern of emigration i have been interested in that and then my explanation about her spirituality is very short and er er also i st- now the it is wonderful that you are able to bring these passages to life again <S3> mhm-hm </S3> that i also get this possibility to re-think , as i'm thinking of sara suleri as a writer she is er somehow this er her grandmother's religiosity even for her is the kind of difference that she keeps wondering about but doesn't completely understand and er er suleri as a writer she writes lovingly about the grandmother's ways to be religious but at the same time er the grandmother in a sense is an other <S3> mhm-hm [yes] </S3> [and er] becomes er the kind of object curiosity , and er er i haven't really in this book er er i haven't i ha- i haven't ha- i haven't got the big passage here at all about the three women's highly different stances to spirituality this is a missing <S3> [mhm mhm-hm] </S3> [element here er] the references are very short and i have been more interested in er in the history of people and [er this kind of concrete yeah] </S2>
<S3> [yes yes more secular yeah] er where at the same time i think that this is a perfect example of how er , texts er live beyond [er the] </S3>
<S2> [they do] start living a life of their own </S2>
<S3> yes living a life of their own perhaps also er n- er in in in suleri's suleri's text and your text as well in in so far as i think this would be a very very interesting point to take up and develop as <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [far as] er erm not only a difference that needs to be emphasised <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [or appraised] because it is exotic <S2> mhm </S2> but a difference that really er can er speak to me as far as er women not only are the companions of men in the modernisation <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [process of] pakistan or in the emancipatory path towards er er some kind of er already known [european] <S2> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S2> because the nation building process and er er also in bena- in bhutto's father nationalism and socialism <S2> mhm-hm </S2> this kind of er barter type <S2> [mhm] </S2> [of] er politics er i think this would be an interesting example of how there is a cultural specificity that can give something to us as well you know <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [without] being simply a mirror of what our e- experience of what our path has been </S3>
<S2> yes <S3> [you know] </S3> [considering] is it as a kind of gift <S3> yes </S3> for [us to learn] <S3> [yes yes] yes </S3> yeah yeah </S2>
<S3> considering how the encounter also with other culture's religiosity doesn't nec- doesn't necessarily have to enter a secular discourse <S2> [mhm] </S2> [that we] understand because we seem to understand only the secular discourse and we seem to dismiss all the non-secular discourses but i think this would this is a very interesting field of research [that i personally consider] </S3>
<S2> [yes but er] er the i don't have e- i haven't had enough sort of [concrete experience i haven't been] <S3> [yeah yeah yeah] yeah </S3> i- to er ma- enough er er sort of events <S3> [mhm] </S3> [er] where there have been female charismatic figures or i don't have this kind of <S3> [mhm] </S3> [experience] and er at the same a- at at this time i i am interested in the theme but i am not yet capable for example re- of reading the political dimension <S3> mhm-hm </S3> of this <S3> [mhm-hm yeah yeah] </S3> [spiritual activism] and i think that's one of the reasons i have closed or i left this kind of writing <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [quite] short and er it it it is not the main theme [here] </S2>
<S3> [yes] , er , as i said before i just picked these two examples and i didn't pick a third one because my main problem with this is that er , i didn't find benazir's bhutto's autobiography inspiring <S2> mhm-hm </S2> as much as i found the others <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [inspiring] er and i i really looked i could not find er a single . example that i would </S3>
<S2> [you would like to] </S2>
<S3> [take up] and discuss because it seems to me very conventional very er </S3>
<S2> packed [extremely packed with events yes] </S2>
<S3> [yes yes yes] and at the same time erm . i don't know that not surprising what <S2> [mhm] </S2> [i found] there was s- something that i was expecting <S2> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S2> i don't know if er i have given , it doesn't it doesn't speak to me as much as the others er at as the other two stories speak to me er <S2> mhm-hm </S2> i realised that er given the two other women that you decided to er narrate about you could not avoid a third eminent pakistani woman such as benazir bhutto </S3>
<S2> oh she is not an accessory @here@ <S3> [no no no no yes no no] </S3> [but no no no no but i mean] yes i understand perfectly and especially when you are reading this monograph and i assume that you may not have read her [whole story] <S3> [yeah no no] no </S3> and er her way of expressing is very conventional i have er found unique moments <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [in her] study through sort of appreciating the whole life story and understanding it in the 1980s context <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and er i i find interesting in her autobiography especially the passages about her time in [prison] </S2>
<S3> [in jail] yes yes </S3>
<S2> and they are they are powerful if you read them in that <S3> [mhm] </S3> [historical] context but er it is you you are quite right that even even the quotes that i have here they don't necessarily sort of stand er a- alone <S3> yeah </S3> very powerful as <S3> [yeah] </S3> [such] that you have to read them [together with something else] </S2>
<S3> [mhm mhm-hm] mhm-hm , but would you think that er mhm the figure political figure of benazir bhutto er has been an example of a female empowerment or not </S3>
<S2> she had an extre- she she had er mhm er </S2>
<S3> very [ambiguous] </S3>
<S2> [in the yes] very ambiguous er the v- er pakistani feminist movement in the 1980s was supporting her wh- er <S3> [mhm] </S3> [sort of] wholeheartedly and they were very excited at that st- a- at that stage that the country would have a future prime minister but unfortunately benazir didn't quite deliver the goods so to speak and after that erm i i don't s- think that there are very many feminists in pakistan at the moment who still take her seriously , that er her time is somehow h- yeah has passed </S2>
<S3> mhm mhm , er <P:05> i think that er my last question er , refers to er , your use of literature it is again er , what we would call a methodological question but not only because er literature in your er in your dissertation plays a central role and it ha- also has a political very important role er . i would like to ask you er . how much did this er contact with the different culture or with south asian cultural er er dimension er mhm played a role in your decision of a , let's say attributing a political value to literature literature not only er understood as a autobiography <S2> mhm-hm </S2> but literature as fiction <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [as] a what we wouldn't really accept as a we w- we traditionally wouldn't accept fiction as a kind of a er scientific er <S2> mhm </S2> or objective instrument of analysis </S3>
<S2> erm i think er er uh it has been a sort of fundamental discovery for me the importance of fiction or or any kind of reading basically in south asia as a mhm er sort of the most burning questions that i had when i was staying in pakistan for a short time was the question not only about the er styles of fiction but a- at- about the simple question of literacy and the meaning of a l- what is the sort of social meaning of a woman being literate this is not anything that we should take for <S3> [yes mhm-hm] </S3> [granted and] women who read novels er er their their words worlds are opened in a sense towards imagining new kinds of futures and er simply the basic act of reading seeing a woman sitting somewhere reading a book is a it is something <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [i] have i have come to see reading in new terms and i i i am sort of more enthusiastic about simply seeing people reading and sort of celebrate celebrate literacy <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [that] is er that is my er , er sort of er basic er some kind of basic notion that i have come to think about again <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [through] this study <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and through the r- south asian references in particular . mhm-hm </S2>
<S3> okay this is <S2> [okay] </S2> [enough] for me (xx) . after this er discussion that i hope hasn't been too er long and too detailed for the audience i just want to make my final remarks and state that <READING ALOUD> the dissertation is er critical yet successful attempt at the difficult task of reading a different culture by trying to enter it to explore its even uncomfortable fruits not to gain a superior knowledge but to provide us with a peculiar form of political knowledge that is necessarily vulnerable and modest and for this reason always in dialogue open to listening different voices to being always in need to be re-enacted and re-performed by the act of reading itself , understanding is a er endless activity and in this sense i think that the book represents an example of this continuous er reinforced and re-performed activity that is endless and it and that is also very difficult and er er doesn't deliver any results any final product erm , so on the basis er of er the discussion and what er i have just said i er recommend that er <NAME S2>'s dissertation er would be  </READING ALOUD> accepted passed i don't know but @thank you@ </S3>
<S2> <READING ALOUD> esteemed opponent esteemed <FOREIGN> kustos </FOREIGN> i thank you for the important work you have done today , if anyone here has any remarks to make concerning my dissertation he or she is requested to ask the <FOREIGN> kustos </FOREIGN> for the floor </READING ALOUD> </S2>
<S1> the floor is open <P:06> if there is no questions then i declare the discussion closed </S1>
<APPLAUSE>
