<TITLE: Racism in Finland
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: other
DISCIPLINE: other
EVENT TYPE: panel discussion
FILE ID: UOTH010
NOTES: 

RECORDING DURATION: 85 min 2 sec

RECORDING DATE: 23.3.2004

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 8

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

BS2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (India); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Romanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Urdu (Pakistan); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

BS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Turkish, English; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Kikuyu, Swahili (Kenya); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> okay and now er , we have , our panellists here , let's start with er with the introduction of of the panellist members and the idea is that you hear er experiences similar to to er kulsoom ally's survey er <SU> [different] </SU> [what she] has and and yes different of course but but i will ask er similar questions er er what kulsoom has please <NAME S5> come come sit here then i will have you , er my this side and er we discuss about the situation here in tampere and we have also er the lecturers' or the teaching er personnel's point of view here today er which of course er gives more enriched er perspective in the whole situation because the university is er a place where er students researchers other co-workers and and and teaching personnel is is working er together and er er we have here er er today we could start with you <NAME BS2> er </S1>
<BS2> hello </BS2>
<S1> you are er professor in international business and er could you please tell me tell us something about your background first </S1>
<BS2> er i've been in er finland about ten years and er er i'm working as a professor of international business in the school of er business administration in the faculty of er business and government sciences er i have lived and worked in almost 35 countries in my life and er er the field of international business of course takes me both in education and research in many directions i'm very grateful to the organisers for er inviting me here to be with you and i look forward to listening more , thank you </BS2>
<S1> thank you er let's start with er or let's go forward with er doctoral students so we have er w- as researcher er working at the <FOREIGN> hallintotiede </FOREIGN> what is it in english </S1>
<S3> management organisations </S3>
<S1> management organisations er <NAME S3> could you please tell me something about your background <S3> [erm] </S3> [or] the whole whole [audience] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] okay should i stand up okay </S3>
<S1> maybe for the first time [so everybody can see you] </S1>
<S3> [okay hello my] my name is er <NAME S3> i'm originally from austria from salzburg and i came here three years ago as a as an erasmus student er because i met er six years ago a finnish girl when when when she was studying er in austria and er at some point she got tired of always er spending time in austria so she told me i have to come to finland now and spend one semester here and still i am here er after three years i got stuck obviously i er like it very much i'm very happy to be here today also because i actually have very positive things to say i believe about the finns and erm it's i i have to stress that this is actually the first time that racism er appears in my in my in my consciousness actively has been when er i got er i when when i was notified about this er this er er get-together er this event before that i actually never thought actively about racism and i think that also tells me a lot that i actually feel quite well perceived here okay </S3>
<SU> do you play music </SU>
<S3> excuse me </S3>
<SU> do you play music er being from salzburg <SS> @@ </SS> i mean </SU>
<S3> okay thank you not not not particularly well </S3>
<SU> okay </SU>
<S1> thank you , er <NAME S4> er </S1>
<S4> hello </S4>
<S1> can you tell me something or to us something about your background </S1>
<S4> hello my name is <NAME S4> i am coming from er romania where i am a PhD student er this year i am here in the university of tampere at the school of business administration and er i came in finland first time two years ago i've been also in the university of lapland in rovan- rovaniemi so i have er experienced two universities in finland , thank you </S4>
<S1> [thank you] </S1>
<SU> [excuse me] i didn't what is your subject </SU>
<S4> oh finance </S4>
<S1> thank you er from the polytechnics er we have er <NAME S5> </S1>
<S5> er <COUGH> hello i'm originally from lithuania i'm studying as a degree student in tampere polytechnics i'm studying international business and er well the reason for coming to finland i think mostly it was family reasons i have a small son who was here but didn't had patience enough to stay so i don't well i don't have train to catch but maybe i don't stay too long because well family wait waits for me and er probably as well as <NAME S3> i never really experienced any like racism or something but i kind of er well somehow was also a little bit concerned about the how it is the situation and when i find out abo- about this seminar or discussion or presentation i just signed for it and thus i'm here thank you </S5>
<S1> thank you and from the technical university er <NAME S6> </S1>
<S6> er <COUGH> hello everybody my name is <NAME S6> and er i came to finland two years ago as a master's of information technology student so recently i have finished er master's and now i am going to start er doctoral studies very soon </S6>
<SU> where are you from </SU>
<S6> er pakistan </S6>
<SU> okay </SU>
<S1> thank you and <NAME BS7> </S1>
<BS7> hi everybody er my name is <NAME BS7> er i'm er from australia but have a turkish background my actual name is <NAME BS7> but nobody in australia can pronounce it so <SS> [@@] </SS> [i've been stuck with <NAME BS7>] for 18 years er i've been here since august last year i'm at the technical university with <NAME S6> studying er master's degree in in er industrial management erm and i hope to stay in finland if i can secure a job in a year and a half or so so that's my overall aim and er there was one other thing i had to mention but i forgot for now but i'll mention it later on so oh yeah that's right the reason why i volunteered for this panel it <S1> [mhm] </S1> [was] because of my background er turkish but living in australia i've seen er or experienced many cultures and er stereotypes and so on i thought maybe i could contribute something from a different perspective so that's why volunteered for this thank you </BS7>
<S1> thank you and from er tampere university <NAME S8> <S8> yeah </S8> please </S1>
<S8> my name is <NAME S8> and i'm from kenya i've been in finland for eight years now i study general history and er , soon i'll be completing my master's thesis and hopefully going on to do my PhD in the university of tampere er one of the main concerns er that i have about that is the question funding which was mentioned here of post-graduate students and er if positive er results can be got out of that i think it would be good to discuss and and try and help (xx) </S8>
<S1> thank you er well we could go er over to to er language and er discuss about er language problems or or situations er do you think that er language in your situation causes exclusion like er in in ally's ally's survey was was mentioned . what er we could first start what are your language skills </S1>
<SU> okay er i'm sorry i have to go i wish i could stay but thank you very much and er </SU>
<SS> thank you </SS>
<SU> it (was) very very enjoyable </SU>
<APPLAUSE>
<SU> good luck with your studies and various projects </SU>
<SS> thank you </SS>
<S1> [er] </S1>
<BS2> [do i start] saying in <FOREIGN> suomea tai englantia </FOREIGN> </BS2>
<S1> uh-huh okay <FOREIGN> voit vastata suomeksi </FOREIGN> , <BS2> er </BS2> when you can @@ or what maybe yes </S1>
<BS2> <FOREIGN P:24, TELLS ABOUT HIS FINNISH SKILLS IN FINNISH> </BS2>
<APPLAUSE>
<BS2> yeah </BS2>
<S1> <FOREIGN> kiitos </FOREIGN> </S1>
<SU> <FOREIGN> sisukasta </FOREIGN> @@ </SU>
<S1> <FOREIGN> kiitos </FOREIGN> thank you well that gives a very good ap- er er impression -pression of of of your language skills so so you you er manage in in in er all kinds of situations or or [how would you] </S1>
<BS2> [yes of course] i think the the m- the difficult part is that <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] there are not enough finnish language courses in the language centre <S1> [okay] </S1> [i wish] there were more <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because the bet i placed with the language centre was that i intend to complete all finnish language courses that are offered within the first two years of my stay <S1> yes </S1> and i did that <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> but after the the two in two years when i completed all the language courses i still couldn't speak finnish [so it's a bit] </BS2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<BS2> so there are there is er er there's need for more finnish courses <S1>  mhm </S1> that's the first thing </BS2>
<S1> mhm and more er oral er er [exercises] </S1>
<BS2> [everything] you know <S1> [mhm] </S1> [the] the the difficult part about learning finnish is that finnish is one of those languages that has very rarely been taught outside its own language area <S1> [mhm] </S1> [unlike] spanish or french or english or other languages <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so that's er a problem for both the learner and the teacher because er it's one thing to er er be teaching finnish only for a foreigner's requirement of er relating quite different for me to be learning finnish er to er relate er with professional colleagues in professional [circles] <S1> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S1> so the i i really believe that there's a need for more er finnish language courses <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [in the] university </BS2>
<S1> mhm-hm , er what is the situation with with you yes <NAME S3> </S1>
<S3> well er i mean my my language skills are er not quite as good as <NAME BS2>'s so i i i manage in in in some situations and usually it is er topics for example the the the the summer cottage topic i can talk about that <SS> [@@] </SS> [i can talk about] er er the pets <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [i can] talk about the weather <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but then you know it depends if you if you would explain to me how you repaired your car yesterday i would not understand a word so so i i i think it it's it's quite topic specific my my my language but i would like to stress what <NAME BS2> said that er the language courses of the the there er there is not er er enough of them also because er what i noticed is that there is a very intensive course and then the other extreme er quite quite er a low er <S1> [level] </S1> [level] course <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [of what] in in the amount of of hours and there because for me as a as as a doctoral researcher i don't have much time <S1> yeah </S1> to to be there every day two hours but <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [something] in you know in the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [middle] so i i guess there is a lot of improvement <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that] that should be in in in in in the university that would help </S3>
<S1> do you feel excluded in situations er when when talking or when when you gather with with your finnish friends for example </S1>
<S3> well er i mean i have quite many finnish friends i think and er quite a good social network but of course i do not want them to er speak all the time english because of me so i somehow er because i want to polite i even exclude myself <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [a bit that i] that for example i sometimes let them their peace and let them talk in finnish and say yeah yeah it it's fine because i i don't want to demand too much of them so of course it automatically excludes me and er i'm i'm i'm just trying on working (towards) leaning more finnish because i know that is the most important key to to achieve true integration [(there)] </S3>
<S1> [mhm] what about in the technical university , are there enough finnish courses </S1>
<BS7> i think there are not as many as the the tampere university [or in] </BS7>
<S6> <S1> [mhm] </S1> [yes not as (xx)] but there are some at least er <COUGH> like in my <COUGH> particular case at least it was like this that er er i got this permission to enter in finland quite late so er the just like er half of the semester had been already passed so i didn't have this opportunity to study language or any other these kind of things but i had to focus very much on the studies so <S1> [mhm] </S1> [i] never got the time to study finnish language </S6>
<S1> mhm what is the situation now do you think you can manage er your everyday life in finnish yet or <S6> mhm </S6> is it far far er </S1>
<S6> mhm i think <S1> [beyond] </S1> [i can] speak er few sentences for example when when i i just like er there's no other way out @@ <S1> okay </S1> so <COUGH> but er yes there are just like the beginner's level </S6>
<S1> mhm do you have er had or do you get finnish friends er <S6> yeah </S6> also [when when only speaking english] </S1>
<S6> [yeah yeah yeah] so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> (xx) (normally is from them) (xx) </S6>
<S1> yeah so so er what is do you think you are excluded by not not er speaking well [finnish] </S1>
<S6> [no] not very much because er er people are quite friendly and er normally let's say that er they don't let you feel this and er sometimes there are of course situations when i am out with my friends and er er people are just speaking finnish so which er i haven't (xx) understand but er er still i think er after a few minutes they switch to english for some time and so it carries on like this so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i don't feel it very problematic or something </S6>
<S1> what about you <NAME S8> you have been here six years </S1>
<S8> eight eight to be [precise yeah @@] </S8>
<S1> [oh eight okay] i'm sorry i [recalled it wrong] </S1>
<S8> [er it's it's okay] i i feel as though er despite the courses i i had this er feeling that when i went to heikki kangasnimi's courses er the finnish that i learned there and the finnish that i met in hämeenkatu were like two different languages [like (xx)] </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah @@] </S1>
<S8> when you go to the cl- course it's er <FOREIGN> minä olen <NAME S8> ja minä olen keniasta </FOREIGN> [but when you go to the street @@] </S8>
<SU> [and i (xx)] </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> when you go to the street <FOREIGN> minä mä olen tampereelta </FOREIGN> </S8>
<S1> <FOREIGN> joo </FOREIGN> @@ </S1>
<S8> er so i feel as though despite the courses there there there is need for social integration for people to learn the language <S1> mhm-hm </S1> co- i think comparatively for people who have learned the languages from family of from the work environment they tend to learn more faster than from the courses <S1> mhm [of course] </S1> [that's how] i feel <S1> of course </S1> and er but that is lacking still <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] social aspect of learning the language </S8>
<S1> but what is your level of of of er finnish now how could you er describe it </S1>
<S8> er i'd describe it so that er at least i can be able to to eavesdrop on very many conversations when finnish people think that i don't understand what they are saying </S8>
<S1> okay @@ </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> which is very very interesting </S8>
<S1> @@ [i can imagine] </S1>
<S8> [fairly good fairly good] </S8>
<S1> okay er do you have er family here already </S1>
<S8> yes i do have a family <S1> mhm-hm </S1> two children <S1> [okay] </S1> [so] but they have been my teachers actually <SU> @@ </SU> yes the children have been my teachers because when they go to kindergarten then they they bring back the language with them and they have no choice but to learn it </S8>
<S1> yeah yeah er <NAME S5> er you have a family also <S5> [yeah] </S5> [has] it helped you </S1>
<S5> well <COUGH> i don't i think not exactly at the moment because my girlfriend she speaks perfect lithuanian so we speak lithuanian at home and sometimes i have not so much time to study finnish 'cause , though we have er finnish er classes in the polytechnics they're once a week and they're quite quite good i think but er we also have quite intense other programme like professional studies so sometimes i don't have enough time to study finnish as much as i want but kind of hoping that during summer i will have more and as as far as it's now i can manage on , simple basic needs that i really have to know that otherwise would start to somehow bug me and be like would i would be uncomfortable so i kind of try to know just enough to be somehow more or less comfortable around but it's not really that i can speak a lot or something like that </S5>
<S1> mhm mhm-hm <S5> so </S5> what about you <NAME S4> you have been here for one we- er for for one year now <S4> [yeah] </S4> [so] er how how is it er so i- i- can you can you learn er language in one year </S1>
<S4> i have le- i have taken a lot of er lectures in in er in finnish language in rovaniemi and also here but my finnish is still very low er i think there is big difference between the the finnish which i learn in school and the finnish which i which i can speak erm there is need for more practise for me to to learn the language i also i have some basic skills to for written language i cannot speak anymore i cannot speak yet <S1> mhm-hm mhm </S1> so i should because finland it's so international we we i can speak er english everywhere i didn't feel the the need to to use my skills in in finnish language <S1> mhm </S1> i need more practise </S4>
<S1> have you got also er finnish friends </S1>
<S4> yes </S4>
<S1> yes and you speak english to them [of course yes] </S1>
<S4> [yes english] yes </S4>
<S1> mhm yeah so so you don't feel er excluded er either [even if you don't] </S1>
<S4> [well of course there are] moments when they talk in finnish and <S1>  mhm </S1> use it a long time i cannot participate but otherwise i think <S1>  mhm </S1> i'm not very good </S4>
<S1> mhm one thing er is there er enough information er in the and the er the universities and and at the polytechnics available in english er or do you think you are excluded in that way that you that you don't er get get er enough information [<NAME S6>] </S1>
<S6> [erm] i think in library er there should be at least in technical university there should be bit more books in english language because it works just like this that er all this group of international students had been kind of lining up for the books so <S1> mhm </S1> @er@ it er was bit too kind of a struggle to get hands to on the book because er this library was made with the assumption that er finnish language only finnish language books should be there or there could be some english language books <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [as well so] but the share of the english language books is er a bit smaller so it causes some (xx) <S1> [mhm] </S1> [or] otherwise er they can come up with some kind of a system to distribute it electronically even the (british) (xx) authors <S1> mhm-hm </S1> or something <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> it's (xx) good </S6>
<S1> <NAME S3> </S1>
<S3> we we have er er already mentioned twice er the funding issue if you are a researcher or a doctoral doctoral student and er then of course because i i've been a doctoral student for for more than one year er then sometimes it's a bit difficult because so many application forms for er certain institutions that provide funding they're only available in finnish <S1> [mhm] </S1> [language] and also the information to how to figure it out best and er when er of deadlines and all of of of the application process they are in many cases only in finnish language and er even though on the other hand if you call them they are very forthcoming and er they encourage you to apply and and those things so that's not a that's not a problem but just er <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and the] the i- it it's it's a technicality of course it would in- increase the access there is in fact i i know it only from one organisation from er CIMO <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [where] it er was told to me actually that the reason why they do not have the information in english is because it would encourage too many foreign people to apply for <S1> [@@ okay] </S1> [money so] but i would not i would not er make the same i would not make er a generalisation now and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [say] it's the same reason for all of of the <S1> mhm </S1> er of those institutions that provide funding <S1> [mhm] </S1> [in] another case er where there is ou- where because basically it is okay even though they provide only information in finnish in the application you can make an application in english no problem <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so you can apply completely <S1> [mhm] </S1> [in] in english language there is only one case so far what i have known er in my experience where where er i was even asked to provide an finnish er er written erm research proposal <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and that of course would mean to translate <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] the ten page research proposal into finnish language wis- is which is almost impossible if you think about the er all the difficulties and er i called them and they said well you know because our board of er our scientific board <S1> mhm-hm </S1> doesn't speak english </S3>
<S1> oh [that's rare] </S1>
<S3> [which i] which i <S1> [mhm] </S1> [found] a bit hard to believe <S1> yeah </S1> but anyways <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] and and but even in that case i found a a method to apply <S1> [okay] </S1> [so] er i believe and in many cases er it's in fact er , your chances to get a grant are probably er er decreased by the lack of your social network <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i s- think the same goes for a finnish er student a finnish doctoral student who doesn't have any contacts who who has bad contacts to his supervisor or or anything doesn't have a social network er he might also have big problems to get those funds <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so i wouldn't blame therefore me being a foreigner having lower chances to get a grant i i wouldn't make the assumption also because it it gets you into a er a vicious circle and you end up very paranoid and and suddenly <S1> [mhm] </S1> [blame] everything on racism <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] i wouldn't even start going there <S1> mhm-hm </S1> just i that's that's something i (hope) myself </S3>
<S1> okay thanks what about the polytechnics is there enough information in english </S1>
<S5> well in the library it's really enough and sufficient but maybe it's a little bit lack in the explaining just er this study rules and er this kind of everyday er student environment things but they're doing it now and when i started to study two years ago it was even less but they always kind of progressing in that but still maybe didn't translated everything that that would like really be everything <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] they like kind of making it [so] </S5>
<S1> [so] so you mean that er that the main degree rules and everything what what <S5> [yes yes] </S5> [is included in the] in the degree is not translated </S1>
<S5> well </S5>
<S1> a part of it or </S1>
<S5> part of it </S5>
<S1> okay [yes] </S1>
<S5> [it's] under under construction let's <S1> [yeah] </S1> [say] or something <S1> okay </S1> but er part is available already </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm [er] </S1>
<S5> [er] that <S1> [yeah] </S1> [doesn't] excludes me so much because if you really wanna , well ask something you can go always to study secretary and she will help you in that case </S5>
<S1> okay </S1>
<S5> or tutor i suppose in this first year </S5>
<S1> yeah , er what is the er professors' point of view into into the information provided in english </S1>
<BS2> well i think er wh- what happens is er that the design of er many education and research activities require er a very deep understanding of er what to provide both to finnish student as well as foreign er degree students who might be coming to the university i think that university of tampere does a lot to make er a lot of information available in many languages specially our catalogues er that are published er by the international office are very well detailed and well presented extremely the difficult part is not in the documentation <S1> mhm </S1> the difficult part is in the acceptance of er foreign degree students so merely by creating er brochures you don't get foreign degree students <S1> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S1> [i still] er experience a lot of resistance er in the university to the admission of foreign degree students er many of my colleagues er do not want foreign students er studying for degrees in tampere university so there's a lot of resistance [to] </BS2>
<S1> [wa-] why is that </S1>
<BS2> the reason is that er the foreign students are seen are we- welcomed only if they are short term exchange students who are a device <S1> mhm-hm </S1> to enable places a- abroad to be created for finnish students going abroad <S1> mhm mhm-hm </S1> and er for this reason the foreign degree student is not welcome <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because it means the appearance of foreign students in our classes <S1> mhm-hm </S1> which many people do not want [(xx)] </BS2>
<S1> [but doesn't] doesn't the er institute get er money for for the er er degree after after the foreign degree student [has finished] </S1>
<BS2> [of course] of course </BS2>
<S1> but that that is a positive </S1>
<BS2> yes it would be but it means that one has to er understand several er parts of the logic one is that a foreign student coming for a degree to tampere university is an asset not a liability because the student represents investments in past education which have been incurred in the country of origin <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er almost er er a student entering a degree programme in finland is bringing a 150,000 euros past investments in education to other university <S1> mhm </S1> secondly the graduating student is adding value to a society that is extremely short <S1> mhm </S1> on er foreign professionals er er i i hope you have read the interview that the president of the finnish academy gave to the <FOREIGN> helsingin sanomat </FOREIGN> a few weeks ago in which he himself er said that he's very sad that er the EU average of number of er researchers er in among the total population of researchers in a country is four per cent <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but in finland it's only 1.6 per cent so there must be some good reasons why we are not able to either attract researchers professors to our country <S1> mhm </S1> or er some reasons why we are not enabling er foreign er persons who are residents on this soil to be admitted into degree programmes and er my submission to you is that i i believe there is en- enormous amount of resistance inside the university to the creation of degree programmes that will equally admit finnish and foreign students <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and the classic case i can cite is that of international business <S1> mhm-hm </S1> a <S1> [mhm] </S1> [curriculum] that i have developed in my very first year of the my being here at the university in 1994 95 we were in a position to have started a master's degree programme in international business already in 1995 in terms of the curriculum content but we didn't do it <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because some people felt that oh it could mean more foreign students in the universities and nuisance to process those applications <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> it's a problem to have more er foreign students in the classes <S1> mhm </S1> and that that kind of attitude persisted this day there have been three golden opportunities for us to have master's and doctoral programmes in international business in the past five years <S1> mhm-hm </S1> we let them go by in other words we give up on er resources that would have come to us we also denied thereby links with the best institutions in other countries that we have also provided opportunities for finnish students to go to some of the outstanding er institutions abroad and er if there is anything evident in the classroom and er most of my classes have a mix of foreign and er finnish students <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i think the student population of this university is what keeps me going because this is the best student group i have taught anywhere in the world <S1> yes </S1> and there is no problem of discrimination between foreign and finnish students or <S1> mhm </S1> or even between er foreign or finnish students and teachers but this is there is enormous resistance to letting a degree programme function </BS2>
<S1> well that's sad to hear <BS2> yeah </BS2> that's sad to hear er can you er tell anything about the international er school of social sciences as er do you know y- know something about that because that is an international programme too </S1>
<BS2> yes , i happen to know that the the international school of social sciences has er has s- slightly different er background <S1> mhm-hm  </S1> to bringing foreign students to er finland <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er it would be too much to decide drive the discussion into that <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] i wouldn't like to claim so much space but the difference is that a lot of students come into that school come to learn english in finland which i think is not a very good er le- learning goal for a a university to have <S1> mhm </S1> because er er we should er actually increase aver- as i was saying learning in finnish <S1> [mhm] </S1> [we] need more courses in finnish <S1> mhm </S1> and foreign students coming here it's assumed that they wouldn't come er knowing finnish so we would need er more english er language courses at master's and doctoral level which is what er has been done in at least the international programmes in the business school programmes the er whole all over europe including in finland in by the helsinki school of economics <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> er actually i came to finland first to set up that programme and that's fully functioning <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so my disappointment is that er in tampere university there's lot of resistance still to er creating degree programmes that will equally benefit foreigners and finns </BS2>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<SU> excuse me <BS2> yeah </BS2> is there er is it difficult for a foreigner or er finnish citizen with foreign background to find a job in tampere university and if there is er what would be solution </SU>
<BS2> well er let's look at the statistics first how many foreign professors are there in the tampere university i don't know but i know only one other , and his name is er howy jacobs er heading the medical technology institute i don't know of a third person so this should tell you something because er [two people are (xx)] </BS2>
<SU> [<NAME>] </SU>
<BS2> (pardon) </BS2>
<SU> <NAME> </SU>
<BS2> <NAME> in a way but yes er er that's a special case okay <NAME> okay that's er three if you count in <NAME> <SS> @@ </SS> doesn't change the proportion very much so that's that's says tells you something and er the if you look at er the other staff who are foreigners of course the language centre has er some who are foreigners but er any other disciplines </BS2>
<SU> are those te- er teachers that you know er permanent er er employees or employees of [they have this (xx)] </SU>
<BS2> [well some of them] some of the some of the foreigners are permanent employees in the university and some are er almost in positions which are likely to continue so i don't see er discrimination as an issue in finnish society and the university is a microcosm of the finnish society but an unrepresentative microcosm may i say <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> because in the university every university anywhere in the world has very high standards of academic freedom autonomy and collegiate functioning and one of er the happy things there for me personally is to be able to relate to my colleagues most of whom are finns and er er that's once you are inside the system but this other point is that what about exclusion so when i was talking about students i was talking about our attitude which exclude both foreign er students from coming to our degree programmes and thereby excluding possibilities for finnish students to go to the best institutions of the world </BS2>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<SU> what about the second question which was more difficult to answer the so- the solution </SU>
<S1> @@ </S1>
<BS2> the solution @@ er this er er i mean there are there are people more experienced than me present in the room who would be able to say more er er er but er i think er the the first basic issue that er er structurally needs to be addressed is what that er american in the ally kulsoom study said that in a way there is a there is no racism or exclusion or discrimination in finland when it comes to social things or cultural things but there is a very deep-seated economic exclusion and a very deep-seated institutional racism that and that is found er everywhere so the the the main problem er is in dealing with the hidden structures of institutional discrimination which are harder to deal with because if something is obvious you can confront it right away i'll give you a small example tiny one er i've been maintaining a diary all these ten years that i've been in contact with finland and someday i will be publishing my memoirs <SS> @@ </SS> and i hope that er you will be interested enough to read them one of the episodes that will appear is the following er happening that er i needed a book from the library system of finland er the book er happened to be on a legal text on human rights it's er it was the or the only one copy of the book in the whole of finland at that time and er they would not loan it to the tampere library it was only in the parliament library in helsinki and they said that i must travel er to helsinki parliament library to read that book which i did <SS> @@ </SS> er having having arrived there er i er asked for the book and i introduced myself and the librarian saw that i'm a foreigner and there's an unwritten rule that this er human rights legal test text must never be allowed to be read by a foreigner <SS> @@ </SS> and now of course the li- the library staff didn't know er who i am or what i'm capable of doing <SS> @@ </SS> so the the the library staff said sorry you can't read the book er this is not for you so i said can i have that in writing so the i asked for the librarian and said that i demand to have it in writing that you are unable to provide this book for which i have travelled er 200 kilometres and er would you believe it that eventually i got it in writing from them <SS> @@ </SS> and i will i have a copy which i have notarised with from magistrate which i've kept </BS2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> unbelievable </S1>
<BS2> so i'm just te- <S1> [yeah] </S1> [telling] you the the so there's institutionalised racism <S1> [yes mhm] </S1> [very strong] and that's the reason why it's er so difficult for a foreign professional <S1> mhm </S1> either to er evolve through these university system (in it) to a degree programme or for someone coming from abroad to er adapt and er live and contribute at a profession <S1> mhm </S1> that is a sad thing </BS2>
<S1> mhm , <NAME S8> er you are er graduating soon <S8> [yes] </S8> [are] you er applying for a job as an assistant [for instance] </S1>
<S8> [yes er] that's that's that's been my latest latest experience i've been trying to look for jobs from different kinds of sectors from the social sector from my own department from from all all over the place but er the outcome has been very negative i haven't got any responses i haven't got any positive feedback and er it's it's got me thinking and that's why i wanted to participate in this discussion because such issues need to be brought forward that er er even if i can speak finnish language and i have some idea about finnish culture it still doesn't open the doors <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] despite my academic qualification it doesn't open the doors necessarily <S1>  mhm </S1> to to get to work <S1> mhm </S1> and er a lot of integration issues need to be talked about and dealt with so that foreigners can also get to work in <S1> mhm </S1> better jobs because foreigners are supposed to work in a particular kind of job </S8>
<S1> well that is the problem </S1>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S1> er have you some some er example er to tell some very , example that that gives gives us an idea </S1>
<S8> er well i i had a a very interesting exa- er experience the other day i was in a restaurant with my family and er i i met a lady i hadn't seen for a very long time a finish lady and er , when i met her she she introduced herself and i introduced myself and we got to talking and er she one of the questions that she asked me was er are you still working in stockmann , er of course as a cleaner or something like <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] and and i i thought for a while and i told her no i'm i'm concentrating on my academic stuff but when i thought about that question later on i thought it was er very er xenophobic in a sense it had er very many assumptions within it <S1> mhm </S1> that as a foreigner and african you couldn't do much more <S1> mhm </S1> than that [she didn't ask me] </S8>
<S1> [and you should still work as a cleaner] </S1>
<S8> [yeah] she didn't ask me have you become the professor that you always wanted to become or she asked me are you still working in stockmann like that's <S1> [mhm] </S1> [where] you're supposed to be you know and i thought that was very very bad but it's an experience that i have had (that's all) </S8>
<S1> mhm , er okay <NAME S3> mhm </S1>
<S3> er about er this er whether it is easy or not to to find your way into the faculty or something er one one of er er a very dear colleague of mine a a finnish er person who has received er her PhD al- already in in in in our department she she always used to say to me what er how she admires my achievement to find my way into the faculty especially as a foreigner and it also i mean i have to say er i feel very very welcomed er my my colleagues are very helpful and so on i have i have no complaints about that but er i guess there's also difference between the er er erm reservations that are expressed to us and some s- we can- some we cannot see because if she tells me what as because she is a real insider of the system and if she tells me how difficult it is as a foreigner to get into the system and i <S1> [mhm] </S1> [achieved] that to a <S1> [mhm] </S1> [certain] extent it makes me of course think okay so in fact @it this very <S1> [yes] </S1> [difficult]@ people don't tell me but er it it it it must be very difficult then because er when finns talk er among finns they of course share other er issues and and other opinions than they share with me <S1> mhm </S1> so but that it sort of things like that of course makes you think <S1> [mhm] </S1> [how] difficult it really must be </S3>
<S1> mhm and you noti- you notified it er earlier that that even for finns it is difficult to to progress and and and to make a career and an [academic career and] </S1>
<S3> [exactly i i] i would also i would say that also as in general as a person <S1> [mhm] </S1> [without] any contacts <S1> [mhm] </S1> [it] is difficult to get into somewhere <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so] i believe also a a finn who who has come from from from anywhere for example one i have one one case a finn who re- received his degree in singapore <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [at a] very excellent university and then er tried to or or started his doctoral studies in in in in in a university in finland and he he had the biggest problems to somehow find his way into the system and he was er actually i had to tell him everything about er how to apply er for for <SS> [@@] </SS> [research funding and and and] how to get in touch with your supervisors and in <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [@everything@] i had to give him this information <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] he as as as a finn <S1> yeah </S1> who has spent only four years in singapore doing <S1> [mhm] </S1> [his] degree there er so <S1> yeah </S1> and it was difficult for him as well </S3>
<S1> yeah roles are switched </S1>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S1> yeah er <NAME S6> have have you found er a job </S1>
<S6> yes of course i work in an office er an information technology company that is a , actually it was like that er <COUGH> when i came here in finland so i applied to many companies but er almost er all of them just like er said er that er we can only accept you in the case that if you can prove you have satisfactory level of finnish language skills <COUGH> which i happen to not have so er then i waited for something like one year and er then eventually i found a job in a company which could just like er remain with english language only kind of (thing) so and er after getting into the job still somehow problem continues because er lot of people happen to write this er emails in finnish language er not just like that they want to somehow create some problems but er it's just like natural for finnish people to write in finnish language so sometimes er i just like er get just kind of cut off because of this but er erm but otherwise i think everything is going (xx) fine and er (it's great) so there are no problems </S6>
<S1> er do you work next to your studies </S1>
<S6> mhm yes </S6>
<S1> yes mhm-hm and er after you have er finished your studies you are going to be graduating soon too [wasn't it so] </S1>
<S6> [i have already] graduated so i mean now i will apply for PhD and er mhm and continue working in in the company </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm and that is all related to your studies and and [your es- mhm-hm] </S1>
<S6> [yes yes so yes] yes it is okay the job for the first job i got was just like very closely related to my studies and everything so mhm i just like (landed) the right decision somehow <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so it was quite er (xx) </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm er <NAME BS7> have you er tried to apply for a job here </S1>
<BS7> yes i have er i've only been here seven months so erm i've just applied for some summer jobs recently er the closing date was march 15 so i sent about ten applications to all the companies and just waiting for some feedback erm i don't have a lot of finnish either so i don't have a lot of er high expectations of landing a job but still i have to apply and see what happens <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so i don't have enough experience to probably <S1> [mhm] </S1> [give] you more feedback on that </BS7>
<S1> well what about you <NAME S4> </S1>
<S4> yeah i don't have either much experience in in er applying for a job in in finland because erm i consider also the the job i could apply for (or i) consider the task (i need for) and er being incompetent or i i thought i i need more language skills i had to er er to manage with (papers) of a company or or to know the legislation finnish legislation and so on so i i did not er apply directly for for a job er what i did i did i tried to find er in the university a research position (but it turned out that) i didn't i didn't i couldn't find this position but er maybe er it's as <NAME S3> said it's because of er i didn't have enough social network to get inside the to the university and to , find it </S4>
<S1> mhm er what about the experiences of of discrimination then at at the university can you can you say that that you are discriminated in in what ways in where so from from the fellow students or probably the teaching personnel co-workers or or . of course by by er job applying there was , there was er <NAME S8> who said said that he he hasn't hasn't been very successful but are there other situations </S1>
<S3> well if i may start i i don't feel dis- er discriminated <S1> mhm-hm  </S1> so i i think i would have to start thinking very thoroughly now @that@ that i can somehow pull up some some some case of dis- <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> whe- where i felt discriminated <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er but i also must say in many cases i compare er what's going on in finland with my home country with austria and er this puts also things in per- in perspective for me this is this is some strategy how i try to er cope with certain difficulties telling myself for example that well you know in in austria it's it's it's it's much worse i mean there we really expect people to assimilate and and if you don't speak german you you don't get very far at all <S1> mhm </S1> i mean here speaking f- english is is is already very er good so those are strategies but anyway i can't say i've i've been discriminated <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> i didn't feel </S3>
<S1> we can go back to the to the surviving strategies later but but maybe er some comments about the f- experience of discrimination <NAME S6> wh- what can you say from from your side </S1>
<S6> i think er it was quite positive experience and i didn't find er any kind of problems in this respect so i think er everything went quite fine <S1> mhm </S1> it's no problem </S6>
<S1> can can you er er add something about your er surviving strategy how can you how can you er erm survive or how can you er deal with the with the problems , you encounter probably cultural differences or </S1>
<S6> mhm , er cultural differences er <COUGH> i think there are quite a lot of cultural differences if you compare the south asia with the northern europe so erm actually when i came here in finland so in the my other roommates i had (i'm) going to have to have quite good er friendship with them and the contrary to the normally normal belief er er s- happened to be very talkative finnish people <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so i think er that helped quite quite a lot and er yeah everything was quite fine except that er one bad er kind of er minor (way) in which er i got just like a bit er annoyed <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] when i was passing er by the university one day and there were a couple of guys just like stopped me (in the way) they didn't say anything to me but they didn't let me pass as well so <COUGH> er they were somehow then they started shouting something in finnish which i suppose were abuses er so i was just waiting that maybe they will do something but they didn't so they would not let me pass so i just like er moved i turned around and moved backwards it was the only thing which i could have done at that time <S1> mhm </S1> and er yeah this was only one negative experience <S1> [mhm] </S1> [otherwise] it was (very) very good </S6>
<S1> mhm and there was this this threat of of er physical abuse </S1>
<S6> yeah but er it did not materialise but @@ <SS> @@ </SS> but i mean it was almost there so i think they were trying to somehow ignite me or excite me to <S1> mhm </S1> just like start <S1> mhm </S1> so which i happened to @(xx) somehow@ <S1> mhm </S1> so that <S1> [mhm] </S1> [was] it </S6>
<S1> and and their their what was their re- reaction then </S1>
<S6> mhm they just like er started shouting more powerfully somehow and er which so <S1> mhm </S1> whatever they @shout@ </S6>
<S1> yeah but <S6> [so] </S6> [after] you you you went away [and and they] </S1>
<S6> [yes i went away so] </S6>
<S1> they left there </S1>
<S6> yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [they] just like <S1> [mhm] </S1> [left] while shouting </S6>
<S1> mhm <S6> [so] </S6> [but] but these are things of course you you you think about them a long [time after that] </S1>
<S6> [er] well <S1> mhm </S1> okay the assumption was somehow that er erm i was so just like positive before coming here in finland or everybody just like told me that it's so good that i had no imagination that these kind of things can happen or somehow will @happen@ and when then all of a sudden these guys were there and er er you just like are in the situation and now but (you know) you cannot do @anything@ but just to (help to) think on this (hard but you can do it the best) and it happened that i was alone and these they were two so er i mean i was in a very bad situation so it was night as well so <S1> mhm </S1> normally we'd we just like er get away with this was we just like avoid the trouble as far as possible so i think er after that i i (xx) them too it was not very good but mhm the best thing was that they didn't er just like physically hit </S6>
<S1> mhm yeah glad they <S6> mhm </S6> as as we saw there very surprisingly [things can happen] </S1>
<S6> [mhm-hm yeah] yeah there are people always <S1> [mhm] </S1> [who] just like <S1> [mhm] </S1> [don't] er like for the reason what you are </S6>
<S1> yeah <S6> so </S6> er have others of you had similar kind of experiences </S1>
<BS2> yes er i must have been assaulted about eight times <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er and er often i've been rescued by my own students <S1> oh </S1> <SS> @@ </SS> @because through the@ because by now i have er taught thousands of students in finland <S1> yes </S1> so i'm seldom far from my own students <S1> yes </S1> @so the the the so the@ on on many occasions i have been rescued by my own students [(xx)] </BS2>
<S1> [can you please tell] tell some <BS2> yeah </BS2> some <BS2> yeah  </BS2> experience </S1>
<BS2> well the first time i was assaulted was in helsinki i was er standing outside the helsinki school of economics er main door and i was assaulted er by a a group of skinheads and er of course my helsinki school students rescued me <S1> mhm [mhm] </S1> [er] all finnish students so you know it's not that the @country is racist or all finns are racist@ it's just that there are sometimes er you have er fringes in the so that happens but that experience i've also had in tampere <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er a number of times <S1> mhm </S1> and er now tampere over the years has er improved so i've not had such an experience for some years now <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but er it was a fairly common occurrence </BS2>
<S1> mhm-hm but you said er er it it has improved so </S1>
<BS2> yes it has improved <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because er firstly er those skinhead gangs are s- now not seen as much as they were previously <S1> mhm-hm </S1> (i believe) from personal experience which is of course a- always anecdotal i haven't been assaulted now for some years <S1> mhm </S1> so the , <S1> yes </S1> @(xx)@ </BS2>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S6> maybe the- there is a move from the city centre to the suburbs </S6>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> @yes@ </S1>
<BS2> so they've reached wherever you are </BS2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> yeah you live in hervanta </S1>
<S6> yes </S6>
<S1> yes @well@ <SS> @@ </SS> <NAME BS7> you live in hervanta too you have [@@] </S1>
<BS7> [no i (xx)] </BS7>
<S1> er do do you have seen the same gang as as <NAME S6> [and] </S1>
<BS7> [(xx)] no i haven't seen er any gangs but i don't go out so @much i'm@ always studying </BS7>
<S1> okay so <BS7> [no] </BS7> [so] you have don't have [seen] </S1>
<BS7> [no] i i don't have any er bad encounters so far er i'm sure there is stereotyping 'cause it's apparently even in australia you know in even between minority groups towards each other <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i'm sure that's also present in finland because it's just present in in human nature but er so far certainly more enthusiasm because i'm australian er but er then again if i want to kill a conversation i just say i'm turkish and it's finished <SS> [@@] </SS> [that's it that's it] no more interest <S1> yeah </S1> but yeah <S1> yeah </S1> no racism so far <S1> yeah </S1> yeah </BS7>
<S1> okay er what about er <NAME S8> <NAME S8> you <S8> yeah </S8> as as er coming from africa and in kulsoom ally's study was was er presented er that [er] </S1>
<S8> [no] well i think er i have to share one or two experiences with the professor of of of assault and having to defend oneself <BS2> mhm </BS2> <S1> oh </S1> er but er , i think it's it's improved a great deal because i was in joensuu last week <S1> ooh </S1> oh i i like your reaction you said ooh </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yes because joensuu maybe you know] </S1>
<S8> [i don't know why you s-] </S8>
<S1> joensuu has very much have had problems with skinheads <S8> [uh-huh] </S8> [and] er they had really er made up er er i think it was like this youth youth er supporting group and and everything to to er prevent skinhead groups to to er er be aggressive and and er try to work for tolerance </S1>
<S8> mhm </S8>
<BS2> er sorry for interrupting you but in cases like joensuu lahti and er in <S1> [mhm] </S1> [many] others including a few i know in tampere the police happens to lose the er complaints <S1> oh yes [mhm] </S1> [and] those complaints physically disappear from the police station and can no longer be found <S1> uh-huh </S1> a kind of thing that i thought would happen only in my own country india in (bihar) <SS> @@ </SS> but er we have here in finland too </BS2>
<S1> that is a very [good (compare)] </S1>
<BS2> [yeah and] i have a personal experience of a judge having destroyed records <S1> [oh] </S1> [official] records </BS2>
<S1> oh , so so you had complained about er one <SIC> assaultment </SIC> and </S1>
<BS2> no this is an another matter i i have experienced the judicial system i have no faith <S1> mhm </S1> in the judicial system of this country <S1> mhm </S1> because the i i've personal experience of a judge destroying records </BS2>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S1>
<S8> yeah well er i i as i was saying i was in joensuu for a research trip for a whole week and er it's it's a pretty small town compared to tampere and and helsinki but er as i was walking in the city centre i- i i had this experience that it this must have been tampere eight years ago when i came to finland it was very much the same where where by you have this culture of er young young youngsters er juveniles driving around the town very fast in their cars drinking and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> basically lazing about and that's when you get this normally that's when you get this racist and discriminating <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [characters emerging] because they're just hanging about they have nothing to do </S8>
<S1> mhm and they're unemployed [themselves] </S1>
<S8> [yes] they have nothing to do and i- i- it made me realise how much tampere has changed <S1> mhm </S1> as the professor said <S1> mhm </S1> it it's not perfect <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] but it has changed a great deal <S1> mhm </S1> over the years especially the last five years </S8>
<S1> mhm mhm yes tampere is is of course more urban urban than than than joensuu and and also er well the diversity of of the it is not so er <SIC> homogene </SIC> er from from the popula- erm form the er well you can s- i i say popularity now but joensuu is more more a country country city and more <SIC> homogene </SIC> [probably] <S8> [mhm] mhm </S8> mhm , er er <NAME S5> wh- what is er your opinion to to er compared to kulsoom ally's erm er example about er this polish er women woman who was er compared to the russians er have you felt any discrimination about your er eastern europe background </S1>
<S5> well <COUGH> not really though i think that most , finnish assume when i speak lithuanian it's they assume i <COUGH> i speak russian but i don't think i any had any kind of you know , well discrimination with that </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm er <NAME S4> what about you do you feel the same as the the polish woman </S1>
<S4> er i think the polish woman was a bit discriminating about russian actually </S4>
<BS2> mhm </BS2>
<SU> [yes @@] </SU>
<S1> [yes yes] yeah true yeah </S1>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<S4> that's the same i mean <S1> yeah </S1> she found discrimi- discrimination from the finnish people but she was herself discriminating the russian </S4>
<S1> mhm true mhm but you haven't self experienced er er er that kind of er discrimination from from finns </S1>
<S4> er (i have not because i) doesn't look like @russian@ so i cannot er be assimilated with a russian <S1> okay </S1> i have experienced some er not maybe not discriminating but some negative attitudes when when when i say where i came from so <S1> mhm </S1> er and one of the students which sometimes avoid to say that (xx) </S4>
<S1> mhm what what are their reactions can you tell an example </S1>
<S4> er yeah some (xx) <S1> mhm-hm </S1> (xx) </S4>
<S1> mhm-hm . er what about your future plans we move forward now er are you planning to stay in in finland , <NAME S6> let's start with you </S1>
<S6> well i actually wanted to plan that thing but er as until today i don't know of any (even) means of doing this because of the reason that er finland er doesn't have any kind of this er green-card scheme what germany has or er er it's just like you can have this highly skilled migrate programme or this kind of er immigration programmes but er finland just has this thing that you if you live (to) the area and continue to work for this many years then erm you can apply for this permanent status and er it happened to be s- so long and so complex that er and everything is in finnish language they don't have even a single page of er translation in english so which somehow reflects their attitudes towards er these er foreign (IT) students or students somehow and er they are understanding but er like er the people in my group has is that er erm police somehow really try to tone down your er er question if you <S1> [mhm] </S1> [ask] them for information for example i asked them that is i- i want to see the law where is the law oh we don't have anything in english okay where is the finnish oh sorry we don't have in finnish <S1> mhm-hm </S1> either so okay where can i get it oh you really want to se- read it yes i really want to read it okay so then maybe you should go to library so that is the way it works so mhm so i would like this idea if i can live here and er settle down but er er legal problems are quite complex <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [so] (xx) is not very kind of er erm just like trained in these legal issues very much and er more recently one of er my friend who is almost about to complete his PhD and he's just kind of in the same status in which i am because he worked er for here for four years even more than four years five years actually and then he tried to apply for this er and he was continuing his studies as some part time thing so he applied for this er permanent residence status and er then that case was just like rejected (xx) so this gives me a hint that what could me my fate so er i think it's quite self evident er what i should do in this case </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm , <NAME S3> are you going to stay here </S1>
<S3> yes erm well at er at least er as far as as as one can plan to stay in a country but er i i have become a permanent resident which was quite simple compared to to <S6> [mhm] </S6> [to] non-EU citizens' ic- experiences of course but erm and i plan to to have a family with with my finnish girlfriend but i think also i'm i'm very ambitious and er i have high er er aspirations for my career so i think it will also depend a lot on the career opportunities in finland in either the academic or the private sector whether i will stay here <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so but i of course i try to learn finnish as good as possible in coming years until my my my my doctorate will be finished so that i of course try to make myself an attractive employee as possible and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] learning finnish is is i guess one one thing i really have to do <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but i i would like to stay <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> yeah </S3>
<S8> don't don't forget your social contact then </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S8> don't don't leave those ones behind you (xx) remember to take the social contacts with you </S8>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S3> oh that's of of course you always have to er [you know and] </S3>
<S6> [(maybe once)] </S6>
<S3> and make new ones enter new <S1> mhm </S1> spheres but </S3>
<S1> <NAME BS7> er what about you </S1>
<BS7> yeah er i'd love to stay in finland er at least after graduating for a few years and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> in that time my aim is to er get some er good knowledge of the language er er that was the main reason for coming to finland i mean i could have chosen to stay in melbourne and study english there but the r- ma- reason is to push myself here and challenge myself and learn finnish i know it's difficult erm i'm also impressed with the finnish social system <S1> [mhm] </S1> [as we] were saying yesterday that it offers a lot i've had some accidents here already i mean in australia i hadn't been to a hospital once in 18 years but here already five times <SS> @@ </SS> <S1> @no@ </S1> i broke my arm during snowboarding and broke my two teeth during ice skating really pro but <S1> yeah @@ </S1> in i mean er the social <S1> [dangerous country] </S1> [systems that (i've heard)] you know i didn't have to pay for root canal surgery in australia you'd be paying a thousand euros (in here) a hundred euros <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and the quality of dentistry is still i think very good so there are a lot of benefits that are here that are not available in australia which is something that many even finnish people take for granted sometimes you know i hear a lot of complaining about taxes but <S1> mhm-hm </S1> what about your future do you ever think about that in australia there is no er the government doesn't give you money after you retire you have to live with what you've saved and this that can be very hard <S1> mhm </S1> er i don't know i think in here the system's different so for me i would love to stay in summary yeah that'd be nice <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but we'll see what happens in the in the future </BS7>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S3> just just one little er story because now <S1> [<FOREIGN> no </FOREIGN>] </S1> [i] think i i found the only story of of discrimination i [might have had (xx)] </S3>
<S1> [@okay well@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> which which happened in in in the in the student health care centre when i came as an exchange student and er er well we have also very good er social health system in in austria and i would say that the dental care is is is even is even better but when i er had some some problem with my teeth i went there and er the dentist looked into my mouth and the first question was how long are you gonna stay in finland </S3>
<S1> @no@ </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> [because 'cause if i would have left in one month or something she wouldn't have fixed it and said do it in your own country , so that that was something i found quite odd] </S3>
<S6> er er i i actually had (one) the same experience because i also have had a problem in my tooth and er the first question was just exactly the same <S1> @@ </S1> when did you come to finland and when you are going to leave </S6>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<BS2> might even have been the same dentist </BS2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [well it was in] university of technology so </S6>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S6> maybe different one </S6>
<S1> the racist dentist @@ </S1>
<S6> no i maybe it has something to do with er some food or some just like er things which are just like unique for finland @@ <S1> @yeah@ </S1> or maybe she just wanted to start er the talk somehow </S6>
<S1> @yes er that is also probable@ </S1>
<SU> i believe that </SU>
<S1> but isn't that so that </S1>
<TRACK CHANGE>
<S4> would be some opportunities to to stay here i i would (more) it's a secure country with good social system good educational system <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> so yeah </S4>
<S1> and <NAME S8> [you have family here and] </S1>
<S8> [yeah i i i'd also like to] stay because of family and er my educational so but i've noticed one thing in the answers at least this far is that mhm the there is a will to stay <S1> mhm </S1> but er the prospects are very very er i or i at least i find to be very uncertain <S1> mhm-hm </S1> somebody wants to stay for a particular reason but i don't know i might stay or i might not stay and and that's the sad part isn't it that there is the intention but there isn't the certainty <S1> mhm </S1> and even if you wanted to stay you're not sure i'm here because of my family but if my career doesn't work out then i have to go somewhere else </S8>
<S1> mhm mhm and wh- what do you think i- i- it is the er probability to to er to get something so do you estimate it as low or as high </S1>
<S8> well at the moment it's very low <S1> yes [mhm mhm] </S1> [yeah that's] what i'd say it's very low <S1> mhm </S1> let's hope that it changes in the future that it'll be able <S1> [mhm mhm-hm] </S1> [to change] make something of my life </S8>
<S1> mhm , <NAME BS2> </S1>
<BS2> well er in the last ten years i've spent most of my waking hours in the inside the tampere university <S1> mhm </S1> so the er er i would say that er er i feel er very much at home in the university in tampere and in finland it's as much er my country as india is and er as a matter of fact i can er let you all in to a secret that i've decided er now that dual nationality is permitted to indian citizens i've never ever applied for finnish citizenship before <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but i'm making my first application tomorrow <S1> wow </S1> because i <S6> [congratulations] </S6> [intend to be] here and stay [here] </BS2>
<S1> [well] </S1>
<S8> congratulations </S8>
<S1> that that could be considered as a very sure sure er [er er statement] </S1>
<BS2> [yes yeah i i] i wouldn't make <S1> [mhm no] </S1> [such a commitment] to a <S1> [no] </S1> [if] i was not sure what i [was doing] </BS2>
<S1> [mhm-hm] [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S6> [yeah but] you have already lived here for ten years so you already kind of er s- er settled down </S6>
<BS2> sure but <S1> [mhm] </S1> [i've] never applied for a citizenship before </BS2>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S6> this is just like making sure </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S8> and that's one interesting aspect <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] even people with permanent status <S1> mhm </S1> er i think it would be very interesting to survey how many of them would be willing to apply for a finnish citizenship <S1> mhm </S1> despite having permanent status and i think that would reveal <BS2> mhm </BS2> how people feel about er the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [certainty] of staying here <S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S1> it would be meaningless to get the citizenship if you can't (think) your life out in the country <S1> yes [yes] </S1> [so] many people don't bother to apply for the citizenship <S1> [yeah] </S1> [despite] having permanent status </S8>
<S1> yeah yeah yeah because the the level of integration and the how home you feel here is is very low <S8> [yes] </S8> [because] you you not feel very welcome <S8> [mhm] </S8> [here] mhm er <NAME S5> what do you think about [your your future or your family's] </S1>
<S5> [mhm well i would like to] stay here but er i think it depends on the job 'cause er i think i wouldn't be able to afford myself staying here without a job so if i when i graduate if i will get a job that somehow would satisfy me and , how to say give me some dignity or <S1> [mhm] </S1> [sil-] er i don't know , feeling good or @something@ i mean not going to clean after studying four years or something like that then er of course i wouldn't er i would be <COUGH> very happy to stay er but on the other hand if i don't get this job i will be kind of forced to go somewhere <S1> mhm </S1> 'cause er <S1> [mhm] </S1> [well] i just can't be without job in the future <S1> mhm </S1> and about these discriminations 'cause erm people were mentioning small things well i think that i didn't really experience it so much except like some minor , jokes or er how you say yeah some kind of like that and were not di- directly directed to me but most just telling some jokes which i could , er somehow feel as er a little bit er discriminative towards me as coming from eastern europe or something i mean <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [particularly] there was some kind of i would say not so clever jokes on er actually i cannot speak so much because i wanna stay in this political correct here because i still have to study in my school at least two years and er the one , actually l- last professor of mine he was just telling some jokes in or one joke in which eastern europeans were portrayed as a little bit like lazy people or something like that that was i assume not true but i don't think he was (talking) to me or anything like that so <S1> [mhm] </S1> [i] was kind of fine and just let it go <S1> [mhm] </S1> [though] it were wasn't so like particularly nice </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm but of course it's assaulting </S1>
<S5> no <S1> [i (xx)] </S1> [it wasn't really] assaulting because , mhm it wasn't di- directed to me it was the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [situation] that it was a lot of work for the his course and well i hope he won't recognise him when i say but er it was a lot of course er for his work and there were only two credit units and some finnish students were little bit complaining that why we have to work so much and it's only two credit units and he said well you know i was doing this kind of thing the same in the university the same course and i also had some students approaching me that why it's only two credit units and then i made a research and er asked er ten students er er why , are they thinking it's too much work for two credit units and he said you know what the students from eastern european countries er they said that it's yes it's a little bit too much for two credit units but the finnish students they said it's okay or something like that <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [so it] was this kind of thing it wasn't really like too bad for me <S1> okay </S1> though i don't in any you know case assume that like finnish students or eastern european students are somehow worse or better or whatever <S1> mhm </S1> and of course as i was admitted to a school somehow i think that they they would think that i'm as good as others 'cause i didn't had any special case for the (admission) except being good at the entrance exams that's it </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm . er does the audience have some questions to the panellists <P:08> er because we could finish now and er , have you something something to add or say it's quite late so maybe some short comments still </S1>
<S8> er maybe just one question to to to everybody that <S1> [yeah] </S1> [came] to my mind er so that again that we don't transform finnish society into becoming a , a basically a problem-oriented society all we see is the negative stuff i <S1> [mhm] </S1> [wanted] to ask what is the best characteristic of finnish quality that everybody as foreigners have seen for me it's the egalitarianism the equality <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that i can sit with a professor in a restaurant and we can chat and we can have a cup of tea and i can meet with kimmo sasi in the train , the labour minister or what whatever minister he was and we can talk in the train i think that's very good in finnish society but for the other people what good experiences have they had from this society other than pure discrimination </S8>
<BS2> the most remarkable characteristic is the capacity to change and the speed with which er transformations can be brought about in this society that is the most remarkable thing </BS2>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S6> mhm i think er one of the just like very good habits of finnish people is that er they are very punctual and er er whenever they say that on this time then it actually means that exact time and @not e-@ even a second minute here or there and er this er kind of er social systems in the cities like public transportations trains these are quite well maintained which means that there is an efficient system of management working behind that (just to) really to get it er er done and <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [(it's)] it has it is being improved continuously so <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] gives a very positive feeling of the overall management of the (xx) </S6>
<S3> well it's hard i mean there has been said now already some some some some very good er characteristics i would i could also add er that er i like that the finns are very modest at least compared to to to my home country's people i appreciate that i i always used to say that er of course the the the standard of living in in in some area- in in in some respects is actually a bit lowered in finland than in central europe <S1> [mhm] </S1> [for] for example in austria or in germany <S1> mhm </S1> but er i i have come to appreciate er er the the simplicity of of of some things here and i i think that that's a a true quality of of life and i always say that that the finns are a society that reduces life to the maximum <S1> @@ </S1> so <S1> mhm </S1> somehow i i i really like that aspect that er <S1>  mhm </S1> i somehow can concentrate here on things that matter more than just superficial er er things in in other countries we are we we we are so our vision is so blurred of all the superficial things <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] i think here it's still a little bit more genuine but </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<BS7> <COUGH> er i feel that erm honesty is probably the the most er important characteristic of finnish people that they're very honest if you ask an opinion (they) give you something <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er that they really mean and one aspect which foreign people er find different about finnish people is that they are quiet and not willing to talk but i see that as a positive because sometimes it's respectful not to speak too much and you know simple er example of er in english society we say hi how are you straight away as as a greeting <S1> mhm  </S1> whereas to ask a finnish person how are you means something serious they really want to know <S1> mhm </S1> when i say that i don't care you can say if <SS> [@@] </SS> [(you're working late yeah er) whatever that's that's nice that] even when you get on to the bus it's quiet and i think that's no- nothing negative i think that's respectful for anyone else on that bus <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] another point is erm s- security i guess when i go to a bank a nordea bank there's no security window or people aren't living in fear there's this <S1> yeah </S1> already inbuilt security er which is nice <S1> yeah </S1> yeah <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> for me they are the main points </BS7>
<S1> <NAME S4> </S1>
<S4> yeah i agree with all the <SS> [@@] </SS> [(xx) said before] security is one very good point <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm i would mention just here at the university i like the er the relation between the student and the teacher it's very very open compared with other countries </S4>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S1>
<S3> may i add that this was actually one of the main reasons why i decided to do my doctoral studies here because the university has a certain er er non-hierarchical climate that i appreciate a lot because coming from a german-austrian background some of you who might have lived there know that it's very hierarchical er society and here it's a very i i really appreciate that en- that environment <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that's] that was very important for me </S3>
<S1> mhm <NAME S5> </S1>
<S5> well i just like that they are straightforward i mean that they kind of speak what they think and i like it a lot <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that's [it] </S5>
<S1> [open] and direct </S1>
<S5> yeah </S5>
<S1> yeah mhm-hm well so positive @@ ending for this discussion even though it has been quite quite positive and and er your attitude has been er or one can see that that er your attitude and your strategies in in in in dealing and in encountering the differences you you er well the cultural differences have been very good and and and you see try to see the positive ways and and try not to try to avoid the stereotypes and and try to see it without generalising and and these are probably the the er characteristics that that one should keep in mind when when encountering people from from other cultures and er living living in a in a different different country er i think we we should we should stop here with this discussion thank you for your interest and er thank you panellists and <S3> thank you </S3> er i hope you got something from this everyone and </S1>
<SU> thank you </SU>
<APPLAUSE>
