<TITLE: Information Society MA Thesis Seminar 2
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: multidisciplinary
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD04B
NOTES: USEMD04A is part of the same course

RECORDING DURATION: 199 min 26 sec

RECORDING DATE: 3.9.2003

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 18

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 17

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Akan (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Chinese; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swahili (Tanzania); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Canada); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> okay i think we can now continue the session this is er , <NAME S18> from my department if , you haven't met him yet [but you you] </S1>
<S18> [mhm not all of you some] (xx) </S18>
<S1> some of them but not the whole group <S18> no </S18> you have never attended the whole group so this is the group in corpore now even the corresponding member <NAME S17> <SS> @@ </SS> is here welcome and er actually the all the INSO participants 14 have been very attentive have been have been very er very er , erm what's the proper word attentive diligent @@ good er participants honouring this agreement which we made already in may to take the first three days of september for the first proper seminar paper sessions and now we are er starting the third day and we have er , four papers to process er , <NAME S17> <NAME S5> <NAME S9> and er <NAME S4> three of them are from journalism and mass communication and <NAME S4> is from education er i think er we should er take the first two before the break as usual then have a lunch break around , 11 or a bit before continuing 11.30 and then have the the or on the other hand maybe <NAME S18> er wishes to , well okay i think it's <NAME S18> will leave during the break and er </S1>
<S18> yes i have to [so i'm (unfortunately)] </S18>
<S1> [he he] he won't be able to make <NAME S9>'s discussion but er we'll we'll see actually we can leave it up to the time to see if we could even make the three before break but two at least and then er then erm erm er at the end we shall have a session discussing the continuation of our seminar <COUGH> agreeing on the the way of proceeding next step er including the dates of our next meeting er we have a- agreed with the er <NAME S2> that he also comes here half past one so er by two o'clock we shall end er with agreement er how to continue also we shall discuss this geneva excursion question at the end okay , so erm . now it's then <NAME S17>'s , turn and <NAME S14> is the er opponent and er we have <NAME S17> in your absence had the practice that erm the author first gives a little overview in just few minutes not more than five minutes even two minutes is enough to to present the paper and after er your introduction the opponent <NAME S14> will give her comments er after which er the supervisor in this case erm in a way it's two but mainly <NAME S18> would give give comments and then there is general discussion okay </S1>
<S17> okay , well in my thesis i will be examining various criteria which are developed for evaluation of website quality my point of view to this topic is still quite loose but i'm trying to get it more accurate and i believe i'll have the final topic ready soon at the latest in two weeks' time , the most important reason for choosing this topic is of course my own interest i think this area of study is both interesting and useful and i definitely want to learn mo- more about it and the other reasons such as the topicality of this issue are less important but certainly they have supported my choice , then about the methods one choice would be to study this issue only theoretically but at the moment i prefer another choice which would be to include to this study an empirical part where i would apply one or more quality criteria to a certain website and then analyse the results and in addition i would interview producers of the site to find out what they think are the aims of the site and what the site is built for , and one potential target of this analysis would be the e-karjala portal which is the provincial portal for south karelia where i come from come from and i have already made some analysis of this portal last spring <COUGH> well this list of contents that i have included my paper will of course change more or less as i get my topic more accurate and same applies to this very long bibliography now this list of literature includes quite a lot kind of background reading that i won't be needing , <COUGH> well , that's all </S17>
<S1> for introduction thank you er can you still enlighten little bit outside your paper about the reason or how did you end up with this topic we had discussed it earlier in in <S17> [yeah] </S17> [winter] in the with the one page (xx) idea paper but perhaps you could remind us </S1>
<S17> yeah in march i had was it five or four choices , and i don't exactly remember why i chose this one but i had this idea already then in march and . well <S1> mhm-hm [okay] </S1> [i can't] reason why i'm so @interested@ </S17>
<S1> alright and then erm <NAME S14> </S1>
<S14> yeah okay erm i just like to say that erm you've chosen a topic that's kind of very beneficial for everyone there's lots of internet users and so it's not like too specific so it could be beneficial for everyone erm have you thought about , are there any like er guidelines currently available for websites like erm how do you control the information that is published do you know if there are any official guidelines </S14>
<S17> do you mean the information quality or what </S17>
<S14> well anything really 'cause there's so much out [there] </S14>
<S17> [any] any guidelines <S14> [yeah] </S14> [for] web publishing <S14> yeah </S14> of course there are gui- guidelines for usability , but i don't know if there are any you know general guidelines for all the content the structure and the information quality </S17>
<S14> yeah okay erm and erm have you decided the er type of websites that you want to concentrate on you talk about public sector websites are they just finnish or international or have you decided on that </S14>
<S17> probably finnish that depends on if i got some , er if i get the chance to made a case study of some website , for example of some organisation's website then i would study the type of website and , well i think it would be public sector </S17>
<S14> mhm yeah erm and erm , is there a real <COUGH> a framework or background upon which you can decide the quality of the website like how do you define good website what can you measure it against </S14>
<S17> well that's what i'm trying to @@ do here <S14> yeah </S14> of course this concept of quality is very difficult to define <S14> mhm </S14> but i'm trying to build some kind of framework <S14> mhm-hm </S14> of course it depends very much of the type of the website i choose to analyse </S17>
<S14> like have there been previous studies on this do you know </S14>
<S17> well i only know about these studies i have mentioned here , in this bibliography evaluating website quality there <S14> [mhm] </S14> [are] a few studies </S17>
<S14> yeah . and . yeah erm i i noticed your bibliography is very organised erm do you find that there's plenty of material for you do you have any problems finding </S14>
<S17> well i think er when i have the accurate topic then i i'll have to search some more research which is related accurately to this topic of mine </S17>
<S14> yeah that shouldn't be that too hard some some of us have got like absolutely nothing in the library et cetera so </S14>
<S1> you mean some of us on our topics <S14> yeah </S14> don't have any <S14> yeah </S14> (material) <S14> [yeah] </S14> [yeah that's right] so you [seem to have] </S1>
<S17> [well there's] not <S14> [yeah] </S14> [much] for me in the library <S14> [ah] </S14> [but] but on the net there's some <S14> yeah </S14> research </S17>
<S14> yeah erm , yeah then i just thought have you decided upon the method yet but i suppose you haven't </S14>
<S17> well if i do this kind of case study i think i i'll choose some criteria which suits for this website and then i'll use this criteria to analyse the quality of this website and as i mentioned i have also planned to do some interviews </S17>
<S14> mhm-hm mhm so this is all the questions i had [so] </S14>
<S1> [mhm-hm] so you seem to be in general cont- convinced that this is a good topic to <S14> [yeah] </S14> [pursue] further </S1>
<S14> yeah it's very interesting </S14>
<S1> so no- nobody so far <NAME S17> has been knocked down and said <SS> [@@] </SS> [go go to hell with this er er topic] we have been too kind everybody has been just encouraged and oh interesting <SS> [@@] </SS> [go further] so but perhaps the general general comment has been do focus more this is <S18> yes </S18> everything the whole world <S18> mhm </S18> from your window please take more realistically er just some aspect of it erm and er but in your case perhaps your topic already is fairly specific you are not you are not suggesting to to study everything on websites it's evaluating the quality of websites that's already a limitation but now <S17> [it's] </S17> [this] leads us to to then [to turn] </S1>
<S18> [you wanna know] (who's next) </S18>
<S17> it's yet quite large <S1> mhm </S1> there are so many ways to to evaluate websites <S1> mhm </S1> because websites consist of so many different elements </S17>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah but relatively speaking compared to some other papers you still perhaps could be classified as more focused than less focused right alright okay maybe <NAME S18> now give <NAME S18> is partly er responsible because you have been discussing with <NAME S18> er this this topic since [winter] </S1>
<S17> [well one-] once [once this spring] </S17>
<S18> [once] </S18>
<S1> [once] okay that's perhaps the normal case with your supervisors we are not better than the other departments in in journalism and mass communication </S1>
<S18> you are welcome to discuss at least for a second time </S18>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> before the thesis is ready <S17> yeah </S17> okay </S1>
<S18> er yes i got i've got one basic question but first i have to apologise for being here actually because i may be an environmental hazard or at at least a health risk for you because of this er not so nice autumn flu <SS> @@ </SS> (xx) and perhaps because of of of of this mental disturbance that this flu has caused for me i'm stuck with one one thing with your paper basically i think that this er your idea about er doing some kind of a quality assessment regarding websites is is very er welcome er er research idea er doing quality assessment in new media is not so (xx) and and not always on very solid basis that's what i think on the surface and then i stuck as i said with one er problem that i've left i see here perhaps you can clarify it very quickly and it is this quality i mean , isn't from your paper from your proposal it seems to me that there would be some kind of a universal er er concept of quality for websites is it really so </S18>
<S17> well i think it's not so perhaps i should use some other words you know , to clarify this quality </S17>
<S18> mhm because i think that <COUGH> well let's put it as a question can there be a quality as such independently from from the contents or for ta- from target groups that the website is is is aimed at from the so to say from the purpose of the website that taking an example from other area could there be a universal television quality can you apply same kind of criteria of quality for all kinds of television er broadcasts or programmes </S18>
<S17> well no mhm that's a very good point @@ </S17>
<S1> or literature or art </S1>
<S18> yes yes [or democracy] </S18>
<S1> [or that] or democracy yeah <SS> @@ </SS> of course for democracy we know that's white house model but <COUGH> </S1>
<NS13> but couldn't you just use the word usability instead of quality </NS13>
<S18> mhm that's that's a good question </S18>
<NS13> mhm just </NS13>
<S1> usability <NS13> [yeah] </NS13> [is] is your suggestion </S1>
<NS13> mhm [(xx)] </NS13>
<S18> [or] we could make a question of that also <S1> mhm-hm </S1> what's the <S1> [yeah] </S1> [difference] between your quality and and usability as as we all know that concept </S18>
<S17> well the criteria the criterias i have studied this far include , er also the kind of elements that cannot be included in usability i think </S17>
<S18> such as </S18>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S17> er , serviceability and , erm . well in general how does the website serve , its user and i think this contains several issues thas- that cannot be included in usability </S17>
<S18> mhm <COUGH> what about the other concept then for instance what's the difference or or what's the relationship of let's say website credibility and and your concept of quality for the web- website </S18>
<S17> well isn't credibility more related to information quality <S18> [mhm] </S18> [and] the exact text in the site . and , well i have thought that i wouldn't er , wouldn't be studying in- information quality here i would make such a , (er) , more narrow point of view that would include content and structure of the page but not the exact information and text </S17>
<S18> so it comes closer to usability [as you suggested] </S18>
<S17> [yeah again] mhm </S17>
<S18> mhm </S18>
<S1> but you have here on page page four this main category of evaluation criterias </S1>
<S17> yes i have [in there] </S17>
<S1> [usability] is one of them then you have accessibility </S1>
<S17> mhm </S17>
<S18> information quality </S18>
<S1> and information quality </S1>
<S18> (but) but er about this credibility there's i think you might want to erm or it might be useful for you to to have a look on a at the study which was done in united states couple of years ago for online news credibility study by er (news) association i don't know if you have seen that </S18>
<S17> i think i have </S17>
<S18> yeah i think that they they they somehow er included in this their concept of credibility also us- at least some aspects of usability meaning that if i remember right er part of the credibility of the of a site of a certain site was how usable it was <S17> yeah </S17> so what i'm aiming here is that er that this this concept of quality is is not so clear as it seems on surface in in [your paper] </S18>
<S17> [yeah that's] true </S17>
<S18> and and what i'm trying to get out from you is whether you want <SIC> intentiously </SIC> to erm to reduce your quality as a usability as usability of the website or or is it something more and if it is something more what are the the the other aspects in your quality assessment </S18>
<S17> well maybe it's mostly usability do you have any suggestions how i could erm , or . how i could er . find a kind of different words or concept to . well a better choice for this quality <S18> mhm </S18> because what i'm thinking of is that quality is when a website is at its best isn't it [well (at surface)] </S17>
<S18> [but from who] from which point of view from whose point of view </S18>
<S17> well that that i have to determine <S18> mhm </S18> obviously </S17>
<S18> that's i think i don't have any better (xx) for you but we might think about transforming your at least part of your thesis as a question of what is meant by quality of a website (i mean) why don't you make some kind of a study or research on what kind of different as you suggest here what kind of cri- criteria has been used in in in in in this <COUGH> context in trying to define the quality of a website and then you could see and answer whether it is typical reduced to more or less technical terms meaning usability and and clarity of of of of font or or or clarity of pictures and er fast loading and everything like that whether i mean ho- how i see it i wouldn't like to define this quality in in of of a website only by technical terms or by usability terms i would like to include also the contents and and the purpose of a website </S18>
<S1> and even even credibility </S1>
<S18> well that's </S18>
<S1> another [thing yeah] </S1>
<S18> [the this this] this study i mentioned it's not without problems because </S18>
<S1> but you should take seriously that study <NAME S17> also that credibility i if i just may <S18> [yes] </S18> [make a] footnote here i think that you might actually the next synopsis of table of content for your for your study include a chapter which would be a kind of conceptual erm review of various kinds of er assessing not evaluating but assessing or thinking about websites which would have a all kind of listing of inventory of all the various aspects including including content er accuracy and usefulness and er and and so on and and credibility et cetera so you could have a like a background erm background chapter <S17> [mhm] </S17> [something] which could make a review of both conceptually you could try to nicely even draw a picture er illustration and then make references to all studies which are available such as this credibi- news online news credibility et cetera and then after that you can nicely focus to even a very very limited aspect that you are yourself doing it would be quite useful because as this discussion shows er there are these various levels and <S17> yeah </S17> <S18> mhm </S18> and and aspects anyhow ever- this is more or less you all have the same problem you are you have an intuitive interest on a topic and then the you understand that it is laying inside the nest of a very sort of conceptually er confusing er and multilevel er er , thing and you should somehow try to explicate in your thesis er the context where you are operating and and er in your case it in- includes all these questions of <S17> yeah </S17> what actually are you going okay (xx) take such a by the one @one@ more aspect er as er i remember er one aspect certainly is readability i mean the simple , erm simple or or comprehension is kind of cog- cognitive process of how easily er and erm accurately things are understood there is a tradition in communication research called er readability studies it goes back to 20 30 years ago we had one dissertation in 1968 in tampere university professor osmo wiio now er emeritus professor for helsinki was part of an international study led by the one of the leading er classics in communication research percy tannenbaum from er from er USA er about erm measuring empirically how various texts it was reader's digest texts were understood in various cultures and er i think i am i'm almost sure that by now by today we have some <SIC> researcherers </SIC> already and studies even published er which are trying by various empirical methods measure the readability i mean the comprehension er of of of the websites in the same way as texts now [it's] </S1>
<S16> [(with) this] readability i i see er concept of readability as a part of the main concept of of of er usability and we could speak also er <NAME S18> said that er you you were talking about the technical usability <S18> mhm </S18> but i see that in in your case it would be very nice to use the concept of cognitive usability and see for instance this this er readability as sub-concept of the usability <S1> mhm </S1> and i'm sure that you can find more more interesting materials for instance using er er phrase erm web-based learning environments </S16>
<S1> [web-based learning environments] </S1>
<S16> [web-based learning environments] <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er then erm er designing principles , of web pages because there are many many studies on this topic i know because i have been familiar with this with these things er since five years in the frames of of modern learning environments and this design principles you can use also as a criteria when you are evaluating these web pages </S16>
<S17> yeah </S17>
<S1> maybe you can even later give some [(xx)] </S1>
<S16> [yes] i yes okay yeah </S16>
<S1> because you have published <S16> [yes] </S16> [yourself] on this <S16> [yes] </S16> [topic] yeah </S1>
<NS13> are you talking about different applications like dreamweaver or actually constructing websites are you referring to that </NS13>
<S16> mhm-hm i'm thinking about more on theoretical perspectives there are are many many different lists of good principles <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> of designing in general <NS13> mhm </NS13> these web pages but the perspectis- er perspectives are very different <NS13> [mhm mhm] </NS13> [because those] er people working in er in in for instance in computer sciences er their criteria are more technical <NS13> mhm </NS13> and er for instance er people working in in education our our criterias are are more er cognitive <NS13> mhm mhm </NS13> and and user-oriented or u- user-centred </S16>
<S18> it may be that you get very confused about all this conceptual er er discussion but you should of cou- well that's very natural if [you get confused but any-] </S18>
<S1> [everybody had] the same problem </S1>
<S18> but any- any- anyway i think it would be it it will be a richness of your study that you have this kind of a complex conceptual er er problem that you have to solve before going to the empirical part , one idea <COUGH> one idea might be that the in your so-called theoretical part you might concentrate on on trying to er er bring forward or analyse different approaches for defining quality of for website now we have been talking about technical quality or usability cognitive quality or or usability and we might add some kind of informative quality or or whatever or credibility and er and and and it might be possible to er to er to er define certain patterns of approaching this er website er quality erm er issue and then after defining these patterns you might want to analyse couple of web- websites and see how different results regarding quality you get from by by using different different patterns of defining quality and then it it would highlight the complexity of of of this this issue at hand . and let me <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [ask one] question w- 'cause i don't know you mentioned here this er <FOREIGN> laatua verkkoon </FOREIGN> high-quality web services <S1> [page] </S1> [memorandum] page page three in the beginning <S1> mhm </S1> er the finnish ministry of finance has <S1> mhm </S1> launched this project what kind of quality criteria they they they bring forward in in in in their approach </S18>
<S17> well have you , so you haven't read these er or seen these er ala-harja salminen </S17>
<S18> no no that's why i ask </S18>
<S17> @okay@ so for example here in asikainen oittinen paasikallio majava study concerning the quality criteria of public web services they introduce several criterions used in other countries <S18> [mhm] </S18> [and] i suppose they the purpose of this project is to prepare same kind of criteria for finnish public ser- <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [service] sites than <S18> [mhm] </S18> [these] criterions introduced here are , they are quite detailed lists and , erm they can consist of of questions or , well different methods and they assess usability serviceability and these kind of [things] </S17>
<S18> [mhm] mhm </S18>
<S1> i could <S18> mhm </S18> suspect that this project this <FOREIGN> laatua verkkoon </FOREIGN> would in its final report have some definition er <S17> yeah </S17> or maybe they are very technical just <S17> @@ </S17> copying the in the the foreign model but </S1>
<S17> yeah they [haven't] </S17>
<S1> [one can] expect that they could have something which is helpful for you </S1>
<S17> yeah now that you say it they haven't defined quality at least not not accurately <S1> [mhm] </S1> [in] these two papers </S17>
<S1> mhm-hm only [copying the] </S1>
<S17> [only they speak] </S17>
<S1> copying [this international] </S1>
<S17> [yeah they] speak about quality but [there's no (xx)] </S17>
<S1> [yeah but don't define it's very] typical for <S17> [yeah] </S17> [bureaucratic] research sometimes it's typical for academic research also even professors write on something there is a very interesting topic in the title and when you go to the work er you are left with nothing in your hands about the substance of that thing just used like a cliché like democracy is used all over the place nobody defines it </S1>
<S17> if i remember right er partly they are referring to the concept of quality used in other public sector services not web in web services but they have some kind of er , view of what is quality in <S18> mhm </S18> public sector </S17>
<S18> mhm </S18>
<P:10>
<S1> but the project is still going on <S17> [yeah] </S17> [and its] final report is to come </S1>
<S17> yeah tieto-enator is making this </S17>
<S1> okay yeah you can perhaps be in touch with these [people] </S1>
<S17> [i have] </S17>
<S1> who are <S17> well </S17> doing yeah </S1>
<S17> i have not yet got an answer <S1> yeah </S1> from them if i [(could)] </S17>
<S1> [yeah] by the way erm <NAME S16> just whispered me er before going to look for his own references that osmo wiio this this emeritus <S17> [mhm] </S17> [professor] er whose dissertation was on readability back in the 60s very recently only two or three years ago he has delivered a lecture in jyväskylä in some conference which was exactly on the website er readability and he's very critical now i remember because he visited the introductory course on communication research last autumn last spring actually that i was running here <FOREIGN> peruskurssi </FOREIGN> and he was talking there about that and was was very critical of the website culture saying all kinds of fancy things are being done and one forgets about what's the purpose of this whole business namely to communicate some er message from er er o- one er source to to to to the receivers and er according to his approach erm websites are often rather distracting than helping the understanding the readability and accuracy of communication so that's surely is very useful you you should look at osmo wiio's er <S17> [mhm] </S17> [recent] writings i don't know where was it published but you can even contact him although he doesn't use e-mail you must write a letter [old-fashioned er] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS13> i don't think i can remember how to do that anymore @@ </NS13>
<S1> yeah yeah he he is erm i don't know if it is snobbishm or whatever but he doesn't to my knowledge he doesn't even have access to e-mail and he's yet one of the leading er IT er sort of <SS> [@@] </SS> [ideologists in finland] okay </S1>
<S18> if we <SU> [yeah] </SU> [if we] still have a minute i would like to ask you you say here on on page two that you are going to focus on non-commercial sites produced by public sector and (xx) organisations , er if you you did refer to it a bit bit earlier but then i'll ask again what do you why did you why are you going to make this choice and and how do you think it affects your [study] </S18>
<S17> [well] this was just an preliminary idea and i'm not sure about it and if i do my study on this e-karjala , then , it's not a public sec- sector website it's almost but it's not then i'll have to make some other definition </S17>
<S1> how would you define its its er status in the public private continuum it's some- something of the civil society or or organisations NGOs </S1>
<S17> yeah it's produced by erm a company but it's supported by many organisations <S1> mhm </S1> in <S1> mhm </S1> south karelia </S17>
<S1> the company is a small er sort of er </S1>
<S17> yeah but <S1> [content] </S1> [the com-] the company was established only in this summer and previously these producers were working at the lappeenranta university of technology </S17>
<S1> right <S17> and </S17> it's it's kind of academics like <S17> [yeah] </S17> [<NAME S18>] and you and a group of others would create a company in order to implement <S17> [yeah and] </S17> [some project] funded by academy of finland </S1>
<S17> yeah and these producers were working er in a kind of information society project in <S1> [mhm yeah] </S1> [south karelia] but [they have] </S17>
<S1> [this is] by the way a very good example of the fact how difficult it is sometimes to de- define whether something is public sector or private sector or commercial business or civil society er more sort of er ecumenical erm approach <S17> yeah </S17> you cannot use the formal criteria of a of a ownership erm as as as a defining criteria for that </S1>
<S17> [yeah] </S17>
<S18> [anyway] i think that some kind of a , a focusing is important in in this in that you it's practically it's non-practical approach to to think that you would be able to (gather) all <SS> [yeah mhm-hm mhm-hm] </SS> [kinds of er sites] so er you have to make a choice instead public sector might be </S18>
<S1> mhm if you define public sector in a in a flexible way <S18> mhm-hm </S18> including some private companies doing things for this kind of <S17> yeah </S17> yeah </S1>
<S18> anyhow i think that this er if you are going to proceed on this route which we described in the beginning here about doing a critical analysis of of what is meant by website quality and and what what kind of approaches <S17> [yeah] </S17> [are] being used [and that is] </S18>
<S17> [i think i will @@] </S17>
<S18> i think that is very impressive because er well perhaps democracy is is a too far-fetched example but anyway web quality is is very loose concept and and and and some critical critical analysis would be very welcome </S18>
<S17> well perhaps this idea of yours this what was disturbing you is something that i was missing here 'cause i had the feeling that everything is not @@ quite right here so i think i'll be now concentrating on this question what is meant with the concept of website quality </S17>
<S18> mhm okay </S18>
<S1> but it might also be good that you you you do some little empirical <S18> mhm </S18> work yourself <S18> [mhm] </S18> [you] you could like interview some sample of users or or experts or whatever that's remains to be done </S1>
<S18> or use use different patterns <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [of of] of quality <S17> yeah i </S17> to to analyse [the] </S18>
<S17> [i meant] that i will now <S18> yeah </S18> in next few weeks [concentrate on this question] </S17>
<S18> [yeah] </S18>
<S1> [yes exactly] yeah but in the in the thesis at large maybe if we speak in very broad terms erm of the total number of hours and the total mental effort that you invest to your master's <S17> [mhm-hm] </S17> [thesis] which is measured in in er credit units four i mean 20 it's half of the all MA package 40 it's 20 credit units out of that i think erm er certainly more than half would be invested to this kind of thinking and literature reading and so-called desk research but in your case er it it sounds very very attractive and normal that you would also have a little bit some part up to half maybe 20 30 40 per cent of the total effort to to to do some empirical work that might you might be able to expose or reveal something very interesting which would then help next er level of research to go further and learn from what you have discovered <S17> yeah </S17> right <S18> yep </S18> <NAME S18>'s <S18> yep </S18> <NAME S18> is now leading a master's programme a finnish speaking master's programme on new media journalism about 10 11 students and in er he's the main er main er sort of teacher and organiser of that course and as part of his methodology and er other ethics courses he has , erm put those students not only to read and understand and conceptually clarify what some aspects er of of new media journalism mean but also to carry out some interviews among , well not the pu- general public but usually </S1>
<S18> no no the journalists </S18>
<S1> journalists <S18> [mhm] </S18> [yes] and they have been [able to] </S1>
<S18> [(personal)] ethics </S18>
<S1> yeah very interesting er things came out just from some sort of erm how do you say er <FOREIGN> harjoitustyö </FOREIGN> in sort of erm </S1>
<S18> research exercises </S18>
<S1> research exercises for courses sometimes very interesting and erm even generally internationally valuable aspects can be discovered by simple student works if it is done er erm in er with such a focus that somehow ties to the current debate and erm and is is very clearly defined in terms of what what is there already on the table [so] </S1>
<S18> [just] one last remark perhaps last i don't know if i mentioned to you this er student called <NAME> who is doing his thesis about credibility of webs- of [news websites] </S18>
<S17> [oh you] mentioned it [in in this] </S17>
<S1> [yeah] </S1>
<S18> [mhm] did you ever </S18>
<S17> e-mail </S17>
<S18> did you ever contact him </S18>
<S17> no </S17>
<S18> yeah </S18>
<S1> [yeah you might] </S1>
<S17> [you didn't] mentioned his name @@ so </S17>
<S18> yeah so you might want to just send e-mail and ask how is he [doing] </S18>
<S17> [mhm] <NAME> </S17>
<S18> [yeah] </S18>
<S1> [yeah] and er do also find osmo wiio's thing and you can even er write him or call him he has a he's listed in helsinki telephone directory [he lives in] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S18> [he u-] he uses telephone </S18>
<S1> telephones yes </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<SU-7> but not a mobile (phone) </SU-7>
<S1> his wife has a mobile <SS> [@@] </SS> [he only] occasionally uses you can't rely on reaching him by mobile yeah yeah , so erm and you can write i could recommend you to write a letter to him actually and explaining and telling regards from me i'm sure he would send you would be very willing to cooperate , so we are coming to the end of this paper and you have found some good hints [concrete] </S1>
<S16> [yes] i can some sources for you i can show later <S17> okay </S17> this list okay </S16>
<S1> so i think this is a very very good promising , case er we encourage you to go on we gave you some concrete hints er and er you should be inspired and encouraged rather than depressed by being bombarded with all kinds of aspects this is the this is the purpose of seminar [discussions] </S1>
<S17> [i'm] <S1> yeah </S1> i'm very satisfied to get these new ideas 'cause when you only think about these issues yourself you <S18> mhm </S18> somehow get <SIC> stucked </SIC> </S17>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm yeah , okay so we can now move on to the next one <NAME S5>'s </S1>
<S5> yeah <P:07> i think my idea is also rather vague , anyway my intention is to do something on the grassroot on the grassroot level , to examine how this fancy technology is really been consumed and used by common people , and er the other intention of mine is to do a kind of com- comparative study , maybe it's more like to find a model for china @@ , because the difference between the two countries is so huge and i think china is at least a 10 years behind finland the situation . then about the preliminary estimation of the kind of structure of my of my thesis erm i put down here first introduction and then the second part data information i think this data information is used as a kind of background to give a kind of view what is the situation in the two countries and here i would like to especially erm discuss the problem of <COUGH> internet accessibility 'cause i think it's er it's an important issue , and i was really amazed , erm first er by these kind of <FOREIGN> nettinysse </FOREIGN> in [ta-] </S5>
<S1> [sorry] </S1>
<S5> <FOREIGN> nettinysse </FOREIGN> </S5>
<S18> <FOREIGN> nettinysse </FOREIGN> </S18>
<S1> yeah yeah oh yeah </S1>
<S5> in tampere <S1> mhm </S1> and then this summer when i was spending my summer holidays in hauho erm i was really amazed at that they have free internet access erm access even in alvettula <S16> [alvettula] </S16> [alvettula] <FOREIGN> kyläkauppa </FOREIGN> </S5>
<S18> ah yes @@ </S18>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> [for free] </S5>
<S1> how far is it from the </S1>
<S16> tampere or </S16>
<S1> i i mean from hauho centre this alvettula </S1>
<S5> something like five kilometres </S5>
<S1> [mhm yeah] </S1>
<S16> [five kilometres] </S16>
<S5> it's on the other side of the lake </S5>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S18> mhm-hm okay </S18>
<S5> which is quite unimaginable in china i think at least erm , the users of of of internet have to pay something especially when they use the internet at home . and then . i include here also case studies , at the moment i think i would like to use this <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> as the finnish case study and i think it might be nice to see how the situation is going on now after the programme was launched , erm about around five years i think </S5>
<S18> yeah something like that </S18>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S5> [yeah] and er the department of journalism and mass communication did a study on this project and i'm really interested i'm really interested in erm how things is continuing there and then you might be wondering why i put here also in the fourth part governments' policies towards information society or e-development erm i think this can be can be used as a explanation of why there is such difference existing in between the two countries erm i think the chinese government has a kind of different target towards this e-development from the finnish government and when i was surfing the internet i hardly find any erm concepts like , erm , e-locality or these kind of things in the chinese websites i think they are mainly talking about e-business and then e-industry <S1> mhm </S1> so </S5>
<S1> which language are these websites mostly </S1>
<S5> mainly in chinese </S5>
<S1> chinese yeah </S1>
<S5> yeah and er the chi- there is a non-governmental organisation did a data study about the internet the kind of general internet usage situation in china which is also available in english i include here in my bibliography and er the in that study people show very little awareness of e-government and these kind of things so it seems so that the internet is led to the direction of profit profitness and business more into that direction th- than democracy and these kind of things . erm i remember cas- manuel castells said that erm we can also decide how to use technology to to integrate it in into our lives er and make a difference maybe that's the main reason why there is such a difference between finland and china , then about the methods i think first i will do a kind of conceptual theoretical study first about this online community there are this is a quite often used a term but actually there are various kinds of online community the first group is the geogr- geographical online community and the second main group is the community online which is based on common interests and the third kind is the often said virtual community er people are people share common interest and newcomers can join the community constantly , and then the fourth one is the kind that i would discuss these local community projects , and er how these projects is being implemented who er who has the power dealing the constu- the construction of this kind of local community portals and er how they are used by common residents , then the main theoretical theories that i would like to turn to firstly maybe i will , erm , use the literature concerning the change of journalism or communication from mass communication to citizen communication as a kind of general background as well as the public sphere theory , and then narrow it down to the series concerning online communities . i think that's about it </S5>
<S1> mhm okay <S3> okay </S3> <NAME S3> </S1>
<S3> er i think the idea of the of erm researching the role of the internet in people's everyday lives is a is a good one and but i'm just wondering erm if you wanna do a comparative study i mean are you able to find enough information about china if you wanna use the local community projects <S5> [erm] </S5> [erm] are you able to find [from ch-] </S3>
<S5> [yeah i think] </S5>
<S3> from china as well </S3>
<S5> as in this is the main problem i'm facing at the moment it's really difficult to find er chinese samples for the one reason that china is so big and in different areas things are developing at different levels but i'm thin- what i'm thinking is that maybe i just focus on the on the biggest cities or the most advanced regions as a kind of , so that's that's what's the best that china can have @@ </S5>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S3> but do they have these similar kind of online er local communities as er <S5> [erm] </S5> [here] so do you think you'll be able to compare these two countries if you wanna look at local communities </S3>
<S5> yeah i think so i mean at least in the provincial level there are these kind of local portals almost for each er for each province and another thing i have noticed that those local portals are more like a kind of information window er they only provide information about different things like erm stock er transportation weather and that kind of things but very seldom there is any interaction between the users and er the coordinators of the websites and er about the local events and e- e- , especially this kind of articles or public public (xx) of the common residents there is little about that so it's still like er up to the bottom new response from the bottom to up </S5>
<S3> okay </S3>
<S1> but maybe you can consult this erm china internet network information centre maybe they could tell you about eventual local <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> <S5> [@@] </S5> [er] cases i don't exclude i- the possibility at least in in er er hong kong and maybe maybe also er er well some other industrially very dynamic metropolis maybe something could happen there in this line because even the political culture differs in different part shanghai is very dynamic also and er </S1>
<S18> may i <S1> [yeah] </S1> [jump] in here also for a minute because i think this which you brought up is very important aspect and issue in the in in your plan is if you're going to make a comparative study obviously the most important thing is to find <S5> mhm </S5> empirical data <S5> mhm </S5> or or or research objects so if if there would be some with some luck you could find chinese <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> er er how how would you then get the data out of out of that experiences of what they've been doing , in practical [terms] </S18>
<S5> [maybe] mainly through e-mail interviews </S5>
<S1> sorry </S1>
<S5> mainly through e- e-mail interviews </S5>
<S1> e-mail interviews or maybe you make a trip home and er <S5> @@ </S5> do some er barefoot research [on the ground] </S1>
<S5> [if i can get] the funding @@ </S5>
<S1> yeah yeah you you don't plan to go even once to china during this two-year period </S1>
<S5> i think i'm going back during the christmas time </S5>
<S1> so you could combine </S1>
<S18> spend your holiday doing [(interviews)] </S18>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah that's right] yeah </S1>
<NS13> sorry mom can't talk gotta go </NS13>
<S5> yeah [anyway] </S5>
<S1> [but] seriously you might try to make at least some connections and er and er and er often the model er for making master's thesis or master's degrees from er distant countries in in in europe or america the mo- the standard model is that you first study one year then you move on to your thesis work and er as part of your thesis work you do so-called field work in your own home site you make a trip there and come back but of course since we don't have any financing here it's up to everybody to find the means to to do but if you go you might try to plan something to locate one or two such concrete cases which you could visit and er well it's easier said than <SS> [mhm yeah] </SS> [done] where is your your home is in beijing isn't it or </S1>
<S5> no i'm from the south @@ </S5>
<S1> south yeah well maybe you could find something not far from your home and er </S1>
<S18> and nevertheless this is one crucial point in your research plan how to find empirical data from china <S5> mhm </S5> regarding er er community communication project </S18>
<S5> as far as i know i don't know any case this kind of er c- commu- local community projects which are organised or initiated by the government , i think in the universities or <S1> mhm-hm </S1> this kind of anyway companies maybe , people create their sites and use it as a to or to communicate by themselves , and er government the government has little guidance on these issues </S5>
<S18> mhm </S18>
<S1> has </S1>
<S5> little guidance </S5>
<S1> little guidance <S5> mhm </S5> er or maybe rather kind of repressive approach trying not to encourage to independent activity <S5> yeah </S5> on the other hand i think think that that if if somewhere there would be a initiative which is motivated by economic grounds like we must make people more actively participating in as consumers and as generators of innovation et cetera er the authorities might tolerate such a thing if it is sponsored by some IT company locally and so on so i i don't exclude at all the possibility of finding china is very contradictory and paradoxical <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [society] nowadays even if under the official very rigid political ideology a lot is happening [sorry yeah you you are still er interrupted] </S1>
<S18> [she (still has) the floor] </S18>
<S3> [@i don't have much to say (xx) yeah@] erm i think it's a very good idea to use erm <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> as er one example from finland because the i mean it's been going on for couple of years now so <S5> mhm </S5> you'd be able to find a lot of lots of different points of view and interview and information from that one and you seem to have so many questions what you can ask i mean i was reading this and there's like okay i'm gonna ask this i'm gonna ask this i'm interested in this @and@ i'm gonna find out this so i mean you you certainly have er a lot of different things what you're gonna find out so i think you're gonna have er so much information if you're gonna erm go on and do this comparative study so so i think it's gonna be really interesting one but er i mean of course i mean i think 'cause you wanna find out so many things so i think there's also a problem that there might you might get too much of it i mean you might have to narrow it down a bit i think 'cause i mean <S5> [i] </S5> [there's] so many things that you wanna find out <S5> yeah yeah </S5> at least [that] </S3>
<S5> [i also] have the feeling that i'm in a (trap) because these questions to some extent they are related to each other <S3> mhm </S3> but they are from different angles <S3> yeah </S3> so maybe i shall focus more on something and forget about the rest @@ </S5>
<S3> @@ yeah okay that's all i have @@ </S3>
<S1> so you if you remember originally erm <NAME S5> was erm suggesting to do something on finland <S3> mhm </S3> study the finnish media or whatever and it was me who said don't you are a very genuine resource for us to link finland to china er do some comparative things at least or if not even to study things in china forget finland just china but erm now er i think this is a happy compromise between this erm these two erm possibilities of focusing only on one country and then having having at least i i do still think it would be a pity for to miss you as a window to china you can read china you understand i mean re- read chinese you understand chinese conditions and you you could really benefit yourself as a as a master's thesis writer and er er we could benefit from your er importing us the knowledge about these conditions in china and maybe even you could your little master's thesis could be picked up by some er polit bureau people <S18> mhm </S18> and say oh this is excellent interesting let's follow this model so you could become a big er er instrument of social change </S1>
<S5> i hope that first i can make @(thesis)@ </S5>
<S18> @@ <S1> yeah </S1> but i i i also <COUGH> am am i'm also er for some kind of a comparative ap- approach here because you have this this er splendid opportunity of being able to get acquainted with with one country while being here in finland and you know are and are able to to to study the what has been happening or what is being hap- what is happening in in in your country of origin so it would be a sort of a waste of resources not to utilise this possibility <S1> mhm </S1> but then then again we have this problem of of of how to in practice do do this kind of a study i would personally i would prefer this kind of a empirical research which would compare grass root online or new media initiatives in these two countries on local level that would be mo- most important and and and most interesting but i think we shouldn't underestimate the practical problems here here because <S1> mhm </S1> for one trying to find these kind of a chinese <FOREIGN>  mansetori </FOREIGN> might might maybe i mean there may not be any any <S1> mhm </S1> corresponding initiatives in in china at all and er even if there were then then the practical fieldwork work might be an obstacle [(and)] </S18>
<S1> [anyhow] do try <S18> [mhm] </S18> [before] before you <S18> [yes] </S18> [give up] do try </S1>
<S18> of course there might be some other avenues to to do this kind of comparison by for instance studying policy documents er and and and and other documents that would give information about how these <COUGH> local information information society initiatives are <SIC> couraged </SIC> or discouraged in these two <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [countries] with giving some practical <S1> [mhm-hm yeah] </S1> [examples for] instance using other material than official documents for instance journalistic documents or other material that might be us- er available or NGO material or whatever but [at at this stage mhm] </S18>
<S1> [it would be easier] to get <S18> mhm </S18> these <S18> [mhm] </S18> [policy] documents <S18> [yeah] </S18> [in] which case your study would be not on reality but on er policy <S18> [mhm] </S18> [namely] wishful thinking by various <S18> mhm </S18> er parties authorities and er and er companies et cetera <S18> mhm </S18> about what could be done and should be done that's a bit different level i also think it would be preferable if you find even one <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> type of case in big china you should try to do all and everything to go to the real thing er and er and even if you find that and 1,000 kilometres from your home we should try [consult] </S1>
<S18> [we can] always walk there </S18>
<S1> yeah <SS> @@ </SS> yeah or take a bicycle <S18> [yeah] </S18> [like] like that [chinese yeah] </S1>
<S5> [by the way i have a (license) nowadays @@] </S5>
<S1> but but seriously speaking maybe we could even try to find some local support from here to to facilitate your travel for and you could extend your stay for one week during the holidays just to be able to visit there and make some on-site inspection </S1>
<S18> there was a [comment] </S18>
<S1> [yeah] sorry [yeah] </S1>
<S9> [yeah] i was just wondering because you studied at a university there before you came here didn't you <S5> [yeah] </S5> [(to get bachelor's)] would your old professors know a- anything about these projects before the- perhaps they're in- er involved in something like this </S9>
<S5> i'm afraid [(not)] </S5>
<S9> [have you] contacted them at all </S9>
<S5> i'm afraid not , erm my university is a ca- is a little bit special because it's a business college but they also have this department of journalism so we were meant to to be trained as a kind of financial @reporters@ and that kind of things </S5>
<S1> but you can you can contact by <S5> [the] </S5> [e-mail] er [various academic] <S5> [yeah] </S5> <S18> [mhm] mhm </S18> people i i can advise you a couple of contacts that i have there but er you can do actively er searching and consult asking people it's sometimes very difficult to find ready they don't put it to the big websites the chin- this is the chinese er <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> come here er rather it's er only through some knowledgeable academic or (or that's) that you can hear about these rumours in that province there is something interesting perhaps going on ask that other colleague and so on and so on [yeah] </S1>
<S7> [yeah] well i was just thinking i'm i wouldn't erm well i i would keep into that and exactly you might find people chin- for example chinese people doing research somewhere else <S18> mhm </S18> i was thinking my university in england we had 400 chinese students so [for some] </S7>
<S1> [you mean] there there might be some local <NAME S5>'s who do the [same thing] </S1>
<S7> [yeah exactly] </S7>
<NS13> [@local <NAME S5>'s@] </NS13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S7> [or you might find] articles somewhere and and your bibliography this far erm didn't have any erm concrete information on china so i'm i'm sure china is a huge country and there are so developed centres i'm sure there is something </S7>
<S15> and also i was wondering chinese mo- </S15>
<DISC CHANGE>
<S1> you know the internet er both in pispala and er and nekala and and so on in this <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> context and even in some like in hauho alvettula to to see er you you know pretty well the finnish case now perhaps you can take some time to try to really through the internet er avenue try to er er examine if there is something relevant going on in china which which you could use as a but you if it turns out to be impossible to locate anything then you should simply give up this community community comparison and er be satisfied at the policy <S18> mhm </S18> policy [level] </S1>
<S5> [mhm] </S5>
<S18> of course there might be other research settings too to be considered for instance instead of trying to compare community communis- communication projects as such you might er consider <COUGH> comparing local e-government or e- information society policies i mean for a sense take an example from of of tampere which is a bit exceptional because we have this [famous] </S18>
<S1> [e-tampere] </S1>
<S18> or <SS> [@@] </SS> [in- in- infamous] e-tampere project and and some other er local er town in in in in china and see make a sort of in- inventory of what is being done and what are the local government policies (at worse) <S5> @@ </S5> in this respect </S18>
<S1> mhm that would be more realistic perhaps or <S18> mhm </S18> another avenue but erm [well] </S1>
<S18> [<NAME S16>] </S18>
<S1> okay <NAME S16> </S1>
<S16> yes <COUGH> one very very important er question in general is is er er the theory of of or definition of comparative studies how we understand what is com- comparative study or comparison because i see that er we have many many levels and the lowest level is er only a description between two or more units for instance china situation in china and and finland alvettula comparison between alvettula and beijing for instance <SS> @@ </SS> okay but er i see that er we have also deeper levels , trying to find differences and similarities trying to er understand these differences and and similarities or interpret them so i see that next time at the end of of october we have to discuss more about this kind of theoretical questions because we were discussing monday yesterday and today in in many cases about the possibility of of comparative study </S16>
<S1> mhm mhm yeah this is a big er fundamental erm methodological question er the er er the case of or the way of comparing in general erm there are a lot of literature on this topic in social sciences also in humanities it's it's similarly also a problem in let's say literature and erm and and cultural studies erm er and er i think that you should have it if you have this and as you will have the comparative (des-) design in your research one way or another you should have at least one one er , er source er one one book or article of something which is discussing the the the er the the problems and possibilities of of of er comparative studies in general and it's true there are many others <S16> [yeah] </S16> [who] have the comparative we could even have a whole whole course on er theory and practice of comparative research in social sciences but that's another big issue anyhow you should especially in your case it's it's very very vital , similarly there are er there are there is a similar kind of methodological question about case studies some some of you well in a way you all co- doing both comparative international comparative and case <S18> [yeah yeah] </S18> [studies] you're trying to exemplify and highlight something by a concrete case of a more general question in this case perhaps er er , er communities and information society erm and er , er similarly of about case studies there is literature in in in social sciences and by the way this autumn there is in in i think in denmark a er nordic er doctoral research seminar devoted on the concept of case studies i think one at least one of our doctoral students is going there </S1>
<S18> when [when is it] </S18>
<S1> [exactly] it's i think it's in in later this </S1>
<S18> copenhagen </S18>
<S1> copenhagen yeah it's NORFA <S18> [oh] </S18> [course] on case studies so these are of course and in the master's thesis you are not supposed to er really devote too much attention you should not devote 20 per cent of your mental and material effort er to this methodological issue but it should be at least one per cent because if there is not a single source not a single line or sentence er in a way raising the issue of comparative research in a way problematising saying well here are these problems i can't solve them but i recognise i acknowledge they are there if you don't have that even then it's a minus for your thesis , right </S1>
<S18> yeah <S1> okay </S1> just for from my part couple of last remarks if if you have time you might want to to drop in my office i could give you a a couple of erm articles to w- which might help you and i might want i'd like to you to meet a <COUGH> a polish doctoral student who is visiting us at the moment who is doing er er studies more or less in similar er from similar er (xx) than that than you are she is studying here also <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> </S18>
<S5> ah </S5>
<S1> yeah [she's she's] </S1>
<S18> [trying to get her (xx)] </S18>
<S1> a doctoral student </S1>
<S18> mhm but she has the quite a good list of erm literature list already some four five pages you might [(xx) that] </S18>
<S1> [she's doing it] for the university of warsaw and she got an scholarship from CIMO from the centre for international mobility of finland to come to finland and tampere who supposedly are sophisticated in in in er sort of er information society and local communities <S18> mhm </S18> research she came here in june and have been sitting er in various rooms which were empty during the holiday time er including <NAME S18>'s room and she's been sometimes in in july early august the only person in our department who was there all the days sitting and er reading and er using computer so s- but she's leaving at the end of </S1>
<S18> this month </S18>
<S1> september <S18> mhm </S18> so you you should consult her she might <S18> [mhm] </S18> [be] very useful </S1>
<S18> and the last remark is on page on page seven you say i must correct this you say that the city of tampere played an important role in building up the site meaning <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> in various network areas around tampere as er having been the project leader at that time i must correct that the initiative was from our research group <S5> ah </S5> and then later on it was carried on by neighbourhood and citizen groups city all or tampere local government in the beginning was let's say innocent bystander it wasn't too much interested in this local community </S18>
<S1> they were never against actively </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S18> [no no no] the they were quite passive </S18>
<S1> [passive yeah] </S1>
<S18> [but in the] in but that has changed at the moment they are playing very important role in maintaining <FOREIGN> mansetori </FOREIGN> <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er er project and and and giving resources for that but in the beginning [they were just] </S18>
<S1> [yeah actually this is] </S1>
<S18> looking looking what what what what was going on </S18>
<S1> this is an example of er real things which were initiated by scholars and <SIC> researcherers </SIC> it's er <NAME S18> and his couple of his colleagues who got this idea er for a research project and then it started to be so exciting that it fed itself and led into this sort of it's been institutionalised now and we <NAME S18> and others are withdrawing gradually from the real thing which is going by itself partly supported by the city of tampere but really it was not initiated by the town of tampere . okay the paper in general i think er was quite [decent i-] </S1>
<S18> [interes- most interesting] </S18>
<S1> you you did erm lay down your preliminary idea of what what you would like to study and why we all understand why she's interested in that and erm then you have made this erm review review of literature you have been able to find er , reasonably good er selection of of sources right <S18> mhm </S18> always new hints to add of course but at least you have started the snowballing and you're able to go forward and then you have even this er sort of very rough first draft of your thesis synopsis what parts and chapters there might be which is of course very preliminary now <NAME S3> did you finish your plate , i'm sorry we interrupted </S1>
<S3> no @@ </S3>
<S1> but er thank you for your thoughtful comments as well , so erm , a lot of homework remains and some strategic decisions to be made but first of all you should find more intelligence erm and er , well good luck </S1>
<S5> thanks a lot @@ </S5>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> alright <NAME S18> needs to go and er [we have] </S1>
<S18> [sorry about this] the next paper was most interesting as well but i really have to go for another meeting </S18>
<S1> yeah thank you <NAME S18> for being you know (xx) <NAME S18> is a natural supervisor </S1>
<S18> natural [supervisor , born supervisor] </S18>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [with with] yeah with er er i have not taken the main responsibility of supervising and [more or less formally] </S1>
<S18> [okay see you] </S18>
<SU> bye , see you </SU>
<S1> the godfather of <NAME S17> and er <NAME S5> but er but erm <NAME S18> can continue to be to be here erm in er in guidance of your continuation too but of course you are welcome to consult me as well , okay now shall we now break for the lunch because if we continue it will be about half past 11 and we are all hungry so , be back er 11.30 and then we have the two papers yeah right </S1>
<LUNCH BREAK>
<S1> er we shall come to discuss the dates these are just first proposal er maybe it's unrealistic but for some of the professors but let's let's look at ra- i just spoke with <NAME S2> he's coming here at one o'clock so we'll try to finish by by that time this these paper processes and then er then move on to the time table and agreement what to do next in in this seminar and also leena wilkman comes to discuss this er geneva excursion okay so er let's er go to <NAME S9>'s paper now </S1>
<S9> okay , @@ well (xx) i don't think i need to introduce my topic so much because it's the right to communicate and i think hamelink did that for me last time he was here so everybody knows about this topic and you've all written about it so you know about the er problems with the concept and that's mainly what i want to talk about and <COUGH> i was er for the framework i was thinking about doing more like a overview of literature and the er previous initiatives kind of like a historical development of the concept and what problems there were previously and then move into the current time and because it will be again up in the er in the information society world summit so then i can see whether it's the same old problems again or has something new been achieved erm and the reason why i want to do this is because i think it's such an opportunity to go to that summit and get first hand information of how things are being done and how everything is developing but i think it it will be important to look at the history as well because it has the concept has been around for such a length of time and what is the reason that it hasn't hasn't gone through so far so this is i think if this can be a research problem then i hope that will be it and <COUGH> i also want to talk about the er the actors in this in this process and my personal interest is maybe the civil society and look at their efforts which again at the summit will be quite good erm to get this information and see see how it's all going mhm i don't really have anything more to say at this time this is my plan as of [now] <S1> [mhm] okay </S1> i did actually want to mention as well that i didn't write a long bibliography i have actually quite many sources but i didn't put them down because i didn't actually manage to get hold of them during this summer so i have page long list but because of my frustration with getting hold of them i didn't put them down </S9>
<S1> yes and also from your paper as as was the case with the some others you did not present this er sort of outline for your thesis which is kind of early process to i mean the chapter one two three four </S1>
<S9> no i <S1> [yeah] </S1> [think] well maybe <S1> [yeah] </S1> [chapter] one is about the history <S1> [mhm] </S1> [just] just looking at these main characters such as er erm darcy i'm not sure it's that's the right <S1> [mhm] </S1> [way] to say it and then this mcwright report erm that will be the first chapter and because i don't really know what will happen at the summit it's quite difficult to erm 'cause i need to see what kind of information and what the focus will be i think at the moment it will be on civil society (efforts) but i'm not sure if that is this is a feasible option </S9>
<S1> okay so this was , the warming up introduction and now <NAME S17> <S17> yeah </S17> has the chance of being a live opponent we have read <NAME S4> has been your </S1>
<S17> yeah i heard @@ </S17>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [er reporter] reading selected phrases of your paper which i think was rather good we had to give you erm acknowledgement for the for the homework you did with these wri- written little remarks , okay </S1>
<S17> well i think you have here a good start for your thesis work and you have stated some clear goals for your work and you also seem to have a pretty good knowledge about this issue , erm , what about this topic right to communicate a hu- human right how final is it have you thought about that </S17>
<S9> mhm well i think it is quite final @@ <S17> [okay] </S17> [erm] if there are any problems with it then of course i will change direction but if if it all goes well then this is it </S9>
<S17> yeah 'cause </S17>
<S1> do you intend to keep the question mark [in the final] </S1>
<S9> [@@] well these details i'll have to @decide@ i don't know yet </S9>
<S17> because it reminds me of an advice i have read in some some method book or some it said that when you are picking up a topic for your thesis , you have to remember that that if your topic looks like a title of a book it might be too large <S17> mhm </S17> and @@ this was what <S9> @@ </S9> i began to think here (er) i don't have enough information about this , this topic to judge if this is too large or not what would [you say] </S17>
<S9> [there are] quite a few books titled something along the lines of right to communicate well there is one in my bibliography a new human right so <S17> mhm </S17> it is probably too <S17> [well] </S17> [wide] a title i'll [have to change] </S9>
<S17> [i don't] know if <S9> @@ </S9> we can apply this advice here <S9> mhm </S9> mhm have you thought of your research problems how could you formulate these exact problems </S17>
<S9> mhm not really because i haven't done this type of work so i'm not exactly sure what to er write as a research proposal but erm i think i think the interesting question well i th- i can't remember now where i read it but somebod- someone of these writers said that , that these theoretical problems will never be solved unless language is changed or perhaps it's the terminology so this maybe it's in along this type of direction <S17> okay </S17> or something </S9>
<S17> then about your methods have you thought of any particular methods </S17>
<S9> it's mainly er literature review but also conceptual analysis </S9>
<S17> would you apply literature review also to these questions page oh you have- have- haven't numbers here but er you say here you er er one of your aims is to find out what are the different actors involved in this process and you want to look into er , to what extent they get their voices he- heard and mhm there are a few these kind of questions , er how , how will you solve these <S9> mhm [er] </S9> [how] will you get this information you you want to (xx) </S17>
<S9> i was mainly thinking about the er summit <S17> yeah </S17> (just) to see what happens there erm but i don't know at the moment </S9>
<S17> have you thought for example , any interviews or [something like that] </S17>
<S9> [yes i was] thinking about interviews but then i don't know how easy or difficult it is to get hold of these people of course my first thought was interviewing erm some of the main people perhaps even in erm e-mail interviews might be an option especially with these er er , NGOs perhaps </S9>
<S17> mhm , what more mhm , well that was all i have </S17>
<S1> yeah , what about the others how how did you this is a topic as as erm it was noted that each of you have some personal knowledge because you wrote this erm , short erm paper on hamelinks's treatment of the right to communicate erm or rather your comments on that draft declaration which hamelink had prepared and then he he lectured even (in INSO) none of you is completely outside this topic and now you could assess like an expert how well is erm <NAME S9> erm approaching the topic er how , er well how successful she seems to be in starting her her work on this , so please er give your opinions now <S9> @@ </S9> before i i give any comments i'd like to hear from the rest of you ho- how do you feel <NAME S17> seems to er in in her remarks as an opponent more or less erm support your the- your approach is that so </S1>
<S17> yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i'm] only thinking if this is i don't know , perhaps this is a bit too large approach at least there are very many questions you want to answer but er we'll see @@ </S17>
<S1> yeah yeah [<NAME S3> yeah] </S1>
<S3> [i i i] i think it's a good i think it's a good idea to wait till the world summit and see how it goes on there and then er maybe maybe you'll be able to define some research problems or or some questions over there because i think it's it's coming the picture is coming clear when when you're there and you see what what it's really all about all the debates and everything so i'm sure that will be really helpful </S3>
<S9> mhm that's why i wanted to do this first historical view <S3> [yeah] </S3> [of] what has been going on so far so that by the summit i would actually know quite a lot about this <S3> mhm </S3> and then i could maybe look at it differently if i knew what has been going on previously and then , yeah </S9>
<S1> <NAME S4> you had some </S1>
<S4> okay i was i was wondering how you have not able to make up your mind about (xx) there are a lot er various areas in the right to communicate that was (explained) by hamelink er the right to communicate by women minorities er mass media in developing countries (xx) can't you make a focus er er , before you go to the summit and maybe cement it or (let's say) make it real than to go and then copy it (there) </S4>
<S9> mhm perhaps but i'm quite interested in the theoretical background of it so maybe it is a bit problem for me to decide my focus <S4> yeah </S4> so don't know </S9>
<S1> well what do the do you say say everybody says something </S1>
<S7> okay <S1> yeah </S1> probably @i am the@ <S1> yeah </S1> if we are experts [on this area] </S7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah you are] super experts she she's er a novice coming to the field and you know it better er you give your holy advice </S1>
<S7> well @@ i don't know advices but but erm i am sh- well erm i think i argue that some of us has to do master's thesis on this topic <S1> [mhm] </S1> [because] that's we are privileged we are somehow advanced i- in this area and one advice would be for example to assess the texts we have done erm before christmas <S9> @@ </S9> so just to get a [point of view] </S7>
<S1> [to go back] to those papers which you [wrote yes right] </S1>
<S7> [yeah and then they] are just know people's <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [opinions so] it might be just one [one aspects of it but] </S7>
<S1> [mhm mhm] yeah but </S1>
<S9> very good idea @@ </S9>
<S1> yeah good idea yes </S1>
<S9> if nobody <S1> [indeed] </S1> [minds] me reading </S9>
<S1> yeah right re-reading those things do you have them all or we can <S9> [no] </S9> [compare] that erm [that the] </S1>
<S9> [i don't] have any of them because i don't think they were delivered by e-mail or if they were i don't have them anymore </S9>
<S7> they <S1> [but we] </S1> [were] delivered but not for everybody just for <S9> mhm </S9> i think you and [leena or eveliina] </S7>
<S1> [oh oh ah] [we] </S1>
<S10> [we] have them (only) (xx) </S10>
<S1> i thought we were distributing them at the session <S9> [no] </S9> [but] okay anyhow i have them all yes yes and er alright good good advice thank you other advice <S9> @@ </S9> , [yeah] </S1>
<S6> [well] well i just thought that perhaps it's er also mhm also good to prepare yourself that er perhaps in the summit itself there will not be that much er kind of er good experience or or so you could perhaps have plan B kind of that you you don't just trust that you will get er er some <S9> no </S9> good material from the summit 'cause i don't know if we are able to be there the right places and and all that so i think that [perhaps] </S6>
<S9> [and also] it's not the final one i think that this (xx) <SU> and </SU> so no but i i think i saw on some website there is a chat- er not a chatroom but some kind of where you can post things i thought that could be a good resource so i don't actually have to get it from first hand to me i can see what other people have posted </S9>
<S15> and also i don't know if it's about sh- well i don't know if they published a prepcom like the preparations on the internet i mean they should but i don't know if that is the case because usually when to those summits everything is based on what the prepcoms have done and then it's just a debate so i mean so you might be able to get a quite a bit you know the actual research done before we go there because it might well be that once you are there it's just going to be a big fight on something you know termin- on terminology or <S9> [exactly] </S9> [something] like that so <S9> mhm </S9> you might actually get even more knowledge from the prepcom work if that's available but i don't know if they [are or] </S15>
<S1> [well they are] official prepcom documents the reports of the meetings as they were agreed there in prepcom one er prepcom two erm are on the website er there are even some er erm a number of proposals which were not included into the final compromise or at least the elements of the compromise which were commentaries of various member states and and er agencies they are they are in the website yes the the it's it's a very rich material there and it will erm continue to accumulate to the website because in september i believe is the next , prepcom , there have been two prepcoms now last september this february and next one last one will be in in september and in july there was something in between prepcom two and three kind of drafting meeting in paris it was very crucial a lot of documents have been posted on that also so i do think that there is material yes as you suggested </S1>
<S15> yeah and then another point what you just said that i thought is very interesting that you said that this issue has been around for a long time and then you said that you would like to look into why hasn't it actually been further developed is it if it if it has been around for such a long time and i think why you may- maybe you don't wanna make that the focus of your work but i think that's very very interesting point <S9> [mhm] </S9> [that] (xx) is not the only issue but with many issues that you know it has been talked about people do know about it there has been academic work on it but why is it that what have been the co- and maybe in the prepcom work because i mean they are compromises i mean the summit will be er repre- representation of compromises done by you know local or i don't know regional continental you know er what you call them work groups so also you might find some you know clues or points or <S1> mhm </S1> you know aspects of that in the prepcom work <S9> mhm </S9> but </S15>
<S4> yeah i <S1> yes </S1> i also advice that er you the course of gathering your your data you try to link up with er some lawyers here who are the forefront of these freedom er these those er and realise from hamelink's er criticisms that was (levelled) by the lawyers (against him) that they were saying that his proposal was rather undermined [the (system)] </S4>
<S1> [they were] sorry his proposals were </S1>
<S4> were rather [undermined] </S4>
<S10> [undermined] rather </S10>
<S1> [i didn't get it yet] </S1>
<S4> [were we-] </S4>
<S10> were [rather] </S10>
<S4> [were] were rather undermined </S4>
<S1> undermined </S1>
<S4> yeah the system er rights to communicate <S1> mhm mhm-hm </S1> ah so i'm i'm saying that er in the course of gathering (xx) you try to er be in touch with these lawyers who are also in the same (association as a yeah) and not limit yourself to let's say hamelink's [(opinions)] </S4>
<S9> [no] no that's a very good point i thought i'm not 100 per cent sure but this article 19 it has something to do with lawyers </S9>
<S1> yeah it's mainly er lawyers' opinions <S9> yeah </S9> which are there </S1>
<S9> so i did mention on the there's an <S1> [mhm yeah] </S1> [example i] could use that critique from article 19 <S4> yeah </S4> <S1> yeah </S1> as you say [erm] </S9>
<S1> [it] was the chief lawyer who was the author of that critique and article 19 is largely kind of human rights lawyers' <S9> [mhm] </S9> [lobby] but there are also non-lawyers around but they always er are dominated by by lawyers on the other hand there was an ideological dispute also between this article 19 lawyers and hamelink concerning the the er right to communicate and i i think er er hamelink could respond to this criticism <S4> mhm </S4> that he's undermining the existing <S4> yeah </S4> erm right to communicate provisions erm er by saying that this article 19 lawyers criticism was er erm too much er too limited er with respect to the citizens' interest and it was looking at the right to communicate mainly from the publishers' point of view the point of view of legal right to have things published whereas hamelink had this kind of populist approach with looking from the erm so-called ordinary people's point of view so there was a kind of perspective difference also which is hard to say who is more undermining er whom depends on from whose perspective you are looking at things but anyhow it's it's a interesting dispute and er and er and er serves as good maybe even you could make one chapter of that <S4> yeah </S4> er dispute only okay erm this noise is annoying <REFERRING TO NOISE COMING FROM A CONSTRUCTION SITE OUTSIDE> but and destroying your your microphone work but erm we need to build new housing for students <SS> @@ </SS> the queues are long i have learned from papers for the new students and housing is needed so this will be a dormitory as you know perhaps </S1>
<S7> they don't need to live this close </S7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS13> yeah it's a bit too close </NS13>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<S1> well that's another question where are you located er anyhow so other hints and comments to , to <NAME S9> , from the experts at the table . so er , <NAME S4> you s- in a way you suggested was it so that erm <NAME S9> might focus er <S4> [yeah] </S4> [not to] instead of speaking in general <S4> [yeah (xx)] </S4> [right to communicate] right from like minorities [or whatever yeah] </S1>
<S4> [yeah minorities or women or] <S1> yeah </S1> right of er maybe er <S1> mhm </S1> er the media particularly in developing countries or something [(xx)] </S4>
<S9> [do you] think it's necessary because i'm mainly interested in the theoretical problems <S4> okay </S4> they <S1> [mhm] </S1> [have] so is that er </S9>
<S1> well i i'm not sure er you you can really er choose to operate at the general level in this case the other hand you might er at some instance of your thesis you should make a kind of inventory of it's part of the conceptual er erm analysis of the concept to indicate what kind of er particular rights er what kind of particular constituencies or groups who have used this concept in er the case of promoting their cause and certainly minorities is one even language minorities </S1>
<S4> third world [(xx)] </S4>
<S1> [and er] and the third world versus industrialised world that has a big issue in the new world information order debate and and so on even the arctic <SS> [@@] </SS> [er ethnic] communities could use right to communicate as as their er argument . what about our russian ladies did you find this er er any- anything sort of touching there or is it irrelevant from your point of view if you look at the matter from the point of view of russian realities does right to communicate er have burning relevance there </S1>
<S11> we wrote about it (but) it's er impossible to speak about right to communicate even we if we have the same in our constitution we don't realise it in practice </S11>
<S1> it's impossible to speak about it </S1>
<S11> not now @@ </S11>
<S1> because it's er so theoretical </S1>
<S11> yes it's it's too theoretical at the moment </S11>
<S1> mhm <P:06> any other comments what about <NAME S5> did you , did anything click in your mind to this from the chinese per- perspective </S1>
<S5> i'm afraid the situation in china is always that the same in russia <SS> [@@] </SS> [we don't even] have the freedom of express- expression </S5>
<S1> but one could suspect that such a concept is used by by er circles who are looking for greater <S5> yeah </S5> freedom <S5> [(xx)] </S5> [use it] as a universal kind of principle referring to all these UN and UNESCO et cetera and say well we need to have more right to communicate </S1>
<S16> er <COUGH> <NAME S4>'s speaking about the minorities and the right <S4> yeah </S4> of <S4> [yeah] </S4> [communicate] from from these minorities and er thinking case of russia for instance i believe that a very great minority today in russia is the poor people , and and er also in other countries er one very big minority is er er , erm with the people with less education , i [see that is very very important point of yes very] </S16>
<S1> [mhm mhm underprivileged yes yeah] </S1>
<S16> very very important point of view <S1> mhm </S1> is this er right of minorities to [communicate] </S16>
<S1> [mhm mhm] </S1>
<NS13> from north american point of view we never have a problem with the right to communicate but the problem is what you communicate <S16> yes yeah </S16> you know so everybody can say whatever they want <S1> mhm </S1> but people think you shouldn't allowed to say that because it's offensive [or] </NS13>
<S16> [yeah] </S16>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S16> [that's] </S16>
<NS13> [so] that's the big discussions going on in north america </NS13>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S15> 'cause i'm just think are are you interested in law at all because you could make a wicked law like you know law-based paper on this @as well@ <SS> @@ </SS> i mean if you like you know you wanna concentrate more on the theory or something because you know as (xx) what what is said in american constitutions and all UN papers all the european union level papers what <NAME S4> just said about the minority rights the legal legal er writing on this is huge <S9> mhm </S9> so that's also you know i don't know if you're [interested but] </S15>
<S9> [i will] have to talk about it because <S15> [yeah] </S15> [it's] it is from from the point of view of international law there's some <S15> yeah </S15> problems i will talk about that but probably not the whole thesis [about it] </S9>
<S15> [yeah] </S15>
<NS13> [that would be a bit dry] </NS13>
<S9> [cause i would get too] bored i think @@ too bored @@ </S9>
<S1> well about poverty and and and these material conditions erm i think at some instance of your your thesis you have to somehow make a panorama of the of the whole erm question of rights kind of theory of rights in in in quotes er again not too much but it's part of the context which <S9> mhm </S9> which should be and er in in the theory of rights there are two two erm , mhm big categories political and erm civil rights which are codified into the international er covenant on er er civil and political rights which the united nations general assembly as- erm er voted erm for or accepted in 1968 if i'm not mistaken and er has been ratified by majority of world nations , to my recollection however not by the united states which is posing as the main champion of human rights the the political and civil rights er covenant is really the the the kind of er political and legal mhm rock which er stands as the foundation for for er er human rights erm and this erm 1948 international declaration of human rights legally speaking is just blah blah compared to this document which is hard core law international law whereas the international declaration is a political declaration which is kind of wishful thinking of international community but not a piece of law so it was made law by this erm er international covenants of of of er civil and political rights so civil and political rights these define to the right to to to er erm freedom of expression et cetera this article 19 which was already in the universal declaration is also in the in the covenant same number and it's it's it's very crucial but this is one category the civil and political rights whereas the economic and cultural rights i think they are made together that was a bit late well it was prepared parallel to the to the political and civil rights but er if i'm not mistaken adopted a bit later anyhow it has been ratified by far less countries [than] </S1>
<S9> [is] it this one international covenant of economic social and cultural [rights] </S9>
<S1> [exactly] yes [you have it yeah right on on page yeah] </S1>
<S9> [but there seems to be same time though according to] mine or is [this wrong] </S9>
<S15> [it's it's] year later it's like 73 and 74 [or something like that] </S15>
<S1> [well maybe it's] maybe it's (well) it's it's enforced anyhow as you say 76 erm and it's er it's er er ratified by er fewer countries but that is exactly the covenant which is er giving rights to poor people for instance saying that there is a certain minimum er right for er health conditions basic primary health care the world er world health organisation is basing its its philosophy on this er instrument and and so on and er er so er the the material conditions for right to communicate in a way is supported by this category of economic social and and and cultural rights and er then there is a i think you should discuss also this theory of rights because there is a next if if this is the political rights of the first generation er including er freedom of er article 19 freedom of er er thought and expression and then second generation is this economic and social and cultural rights then there is this third generation which er which deals whit such universal issues as peace and environment and er happiness and whatever er that has not yet reached a legal erm status because it hasn't been accepted as an international er convention and er not not ratified there are just some sort of philosophical debates and political resolutions by the UN to to that er extent and in a way i'm i'm dis- explaining it because the right to communicate is actually a concept which some theorists er place into this third generation of human rights rather than the first generation because first generation includes ba- already we can say that the erm aspects of the right to communicate which are politically relevant namely freedom to think and freedom to express whatever you wish , erm but the right to communicate as a kind of very general communication right is considered by some to be part of those er very very er sort of er general aspects of both human life and er global conditions including peace er heal- er sort of sound environment et cetera and er , and er therefore it it it it it places an interesting context for the whole concept of of of er of er right to communicate er regarding your your erm little paragraph on bill bill of human rights here the you don't have this regional , you might add here also regional conventions of human rights european there is a european convention on human rights which is the basis for the european court of human rights which is er kind of a legal human rights corner of the european union and the council of europe , also in africa there is an african charter for human rights which has a communication article there is a latin american er actually it's the er perhaps as old as the european charter for human rights which was adopted 1950 the eu- the latin american one was prepared also rather early already in the 60s and erm , it or it's not called latin it's american because it includes also er USA and er president carter initiated steps to for the US to to enter that convention which america was preparing but never accepted and carter who was very active with er , with erm with erm prezinsky by the way as his er se- security adviser promoting human rights as one of the leading instruments of his policy he wanted to do something concrete in the international legal sphere and the big step was that er US erm suggested to to to enter that and at that stage then er well it was frozen of course because congress never could agree they always put some obstacles and so on so US even today is not yet it has started the process but has not completed it but anyhow i'm i'm what i'm suggesting that you might also take in to consideration the regional erm regional human rights er regime and er place kind of perhaps one chapter in your thesis could be this theory of human rights including the legal regulatory framework there are books on the theory written by philosophers of of of rights and so on who whom [you could use your yeah] </S1>
<S9> [can you mention them] later on </S9>
<S1> yeah yeah yeah of course </S1>
<S15> there's also erm if you like well the er the up-to-date discussion there's the european journal of international law's website it's er i can't spell it in english so <FOREIGN> E-J-I-L piste org </FOREIGN> and erm , what i i can't say right now if the by i'm sure because it's very very good site and they have articles short articles they can be quite theoretical but they have a search engine so it might also be worthwhile looking because they usually have good stuff there </S15>
<S9> could you [say again] </S9>
<S1> [so in a way] yeah </S1>
<S15> <FOREIGN> E-J-I-L[piste org] </FOREIGN> </S15>
<S9> <FOREIGN> [L vai R] </FOREIGN> </S9>
<S15> <FOREIGN> [L] </FOREIGN> </S15>
<S1> [well you can take later] er you can give <SS> @@ </SS> give later these concrete hints they are when when you pick up website names from write er from spoken word they are always wrong </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS13> that's true by the way </NS13>
<SS> (xx) @@ </SS>
<S1> anyhow er , the the topic here really opens i think er erm several avenues where you may or may not go but i think er one must for you would be a kind of a fairly good solid er er knowledge and er report of the theory of rights because if this is right to communicate you must really er know what the right is and the how the rights what is the system of rights and so on hamelink has written something in his book er which er which we have er used already last fall as as as background and er this er and which is also in your bibliography but there are a lot of others erm so erm and another one is then this communicate now i i just wanted to suggest that you should also erm take something which is not yet in your paper here i didn't want to recommend it to you in the beginning not to drown you with too much stuff but but erm i think you should have to certain extent maybe even a short chapter on the concept of communication communicate because this is right to communicate now the question is what is communication com- to communicate and it's it's a very vague and not very clear always in this context of right to communicate what does it mean erm </S1>
<S9> i think there was some because it was initially the problem with 'cause the actual view of looking at communication changed like it was from top down to people listening and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [now] it's going both ways [so i think that's] </S9>
<S1> [well that's only] one <S9> [this] </S9> [one] dimension <S9> [it is yes] </S9> [this er] unidirectional versus er dialogical and by the way dialogical there are different schools of dialogue one being paulo freire you you should definitely take dia- er little erm he's a big guru of er philosophy of education and pedagogy erm he was a jesuit erm was he jesuit priest from er <S16> yeah </S16> brazil <S16> yes </S16> who is a legendary he's he's for the intellectuals of latin america what che guevara is for the revolutionaries of of of erm er latin america and not only latin america but all universally freire's dialogic er ethics of communication is one of the big things so anyhow erm there are various er theoretical avenues to the concept of communication and i will i will er @@ advice you later to to take that on board too erm erm but not too too much of course this is not a study about the concept of communication but you should have enough of concept of communication in order to somehow open up that the communication is a very multidimensional concept and er and and you sh- er even to the extent that according to some , some er , expert opinions this right to communicate is an impossible concept you communication is su- so <SIC> all-embracive </SIC> a concept like air that we are breathing or life as a biological en- er feature that you can't designate er a concept of right to such a , phenomenon it's kind of philosophical issue er same is by the way argued in the discussion about third generation of human rights about peace or or environment some say well , peace is too broad an issue you can't apply right the concept of right erm to such an issue which is like like everything and nothing at the same time erm and er communication comes into the same area of er potentially too broad a concept to be applied er so there are very challenging philosophical and conceptual issues which you you you are i- invited to to to [include so] </S1>
<S9> [good thing i] was interested in the theoretical @side@ anyway </S9>
<S1> sorry </S1>
<S9> good thing i was interested in the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [theoretical] side anyways because if i <S1> [yeah] </S1> [wanted] to do some practical thing now (be) [@impossible@] </S9>
<S1> [right] right so i think you have opened your your plate in in a logical way by looking very concretely at the documents where this concept was introduced , er and er er and such a historical review over the debate or around erm or the or the concept of introduction of the concept of right to communicate in the academic and political , realm is is logical as as one chapter but then you should have perhaps another chapter on the concept of rights another on the concept of communication and er then we come to this this question of erm of of the interview was it you who asked whether or somebody asked whether you are going to make some interviews and more concrete stuff whether this is desk research based on documents and literature or whether you would do something else , erm i would recommend er , that you would not wait too much to the to the summit because the summit doesn't really solve the problem of er what is there , summit is first of all a huge er huge show er and you should be rather well-prepared with your you should know what you want when you go there and you should use that opportunity to pick up some evidence from the from the participants because if you only are interested in knowing what will be the outcome of the co- conference then you better not go there you just follow the website and see what what is the final document and so on </S1>
<S9> i think i was thinking i didn't expect it to solve anything but mainly of will the all the problems that have been problems previously will they appear again the same ones <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that's] probably what i was [hoping to find out] </S9>
<S1> [but i think that] these problems at the level of such a big UN summit all of them are known from these preparatory meetings and the various positions with lo- hundreds of lobbies et cetera er there is a discourse already in the table now the question is only how the final balance will be written and i think this is a very unique possibility where all the relevant players are present and i would recommend to you we haven't discussed it yet but i would recommend that that erm <NAME S9> would er er would er really carry out some interviews there among the participants take some strategic questions and try to push get as many as possible er people representatives of both governments and NGOs and even companies erm i have often been at UN meetings where some student is distributing a simple questionnaire and er usually in that hassle of the conference you don't have time to fill it but later on you might return it or maybe you'll do such a short interview that it's enough to spend two minutes with you in a corner of a bar or wherever parking lot and you could er you could just er put some crucial questions and er and use use that er as part of your study i think that would be a opportunity not to be missed </S1>
<S9> do you think it would also be useful to interview er some of the say article 19 try to e-mail them and [ask] </S9>
<S1> [you] can do them outside geneva they are [sitting in london all the time] </S1>
<S9> [yeah that's that's what i so you think] it's useful though as part of the </S9>
<S1> well maybe but on the other hand we know a lot what they have , thought about the matter already and they are rather vocal so i'm not sure if that is the , biggest erm missing link so far er maybe there are other parties who could be , erm including va- er representatives of various minorities and er , and erm citizen civil society groups who who could be you could make a little survey among them anyhow we should not take too much time of making this er session of of of er , the supervisor and and the student but my main point is that number one er you should add still this theoretical li- literature based work mainly the area of rights a- and also the area of of communication theory er both are available in in books and articles et cetera it's just normal homework of a master's thesis and number two you should also try to use this , geneva summit as a platform for concrete material , gathered by you only for you and reported in your thesis i think this these months which are s- ahead of us now three months until december is that so <SU> are we </SU> yeah that's enough for reading thinking preparing with some er , some er crucial questions which you could and also thinking about whom to stick to not just anybody but try to have a broad or focused target er group to reach there , okay i agree with those who said that this topic certainly is good one and deserves to be covered , and er . then , we'll continue , any other recommendations <P:08> are we ready to then move to the last paper , obviously , <NAME S4> , and the commentator is <NAME S7> right </S1>
<S7> mhm-hm </S7>
<S4> erm , my topic is er educational policies and , its implementation towards information society , er actually i'm motivated by the finnish network system , and er , i realise er , er it is something with learning because when you compare it to ghana we are information society and when you compare it to ghana er we are far far behind we actually don't (again) have any concept like a information society it's something very abstract and all that we know is the internet er system of er maybe communicating and those things so er it has actually resulted in a big problem with er er everything going computerised and er looking at products of educational system we realise we don't fit into that job situation actually there are some situations here that i see (xx) image of that is not permanent given the the basis of the finnish educational system when i looked at the policy that have been spelled out so far so i thought it wise to study this basic er element that will go to enhance our system actually it's a comparative study but it is not intended to be lifted wholly because of the cultural divide and those things so i have in mind learning or studying to detail the culture of the finnish people as well as the ghanaian situation so that er whoever takes this as a model will know what it actually entails and the type of adjustment that person can make (and) i tend to implement wholly or part of er whatever document is on (on board) er the educational system er looking through the literature actually er poses some resemblances because er there are some commonalities or common issues concerning maybe the the physical environment that is needed by er the teacher and the learner er the method of delivery erm (xx) the structure and control of the system erm the status of the teacher and er and er his his (civil-) er his status in the society these are common issues er that cuts across and that actually paves a way for a comparative study to be done and then i looked at er this comparative study by is it torren it's a certain guy torren and er he actually came out with some studies that were taken in the eastern world where japan had to study er sorry er china and thailand had to study er educational system of japan and then at the point japan also wanted to er did study the educational system of er united states (xx) different levels so i see it to be er as something er that can be pursued er provided we take those er er cultural er differences into consideration yeah and so in the course of er studying i think i have this then it's just preliminary it's not that (xx) , i , i intend focus in a lot of things among which include . the educational policies how we know for a very long time the educational system is quite different that is the aims and objectives is quite different what with er with what actually pertains into how is the aims and objectives of education been thought that to reflect what is actually on the ground today then i intend asking questions like are educational policies on finland of finland and ghana as they stand today satisfy national and global requirement are the contents necessary are they relevant are they adequate er or appropriate then talking of the structures are there certain structures that have been set in place to monitor what is actually going on and is the management style is it the same or there has been some changes @@ er the these are some of the thing that i would like to er to to explore in addition to the theoretical studies that i would do on the (xx) i think these were the (shell form) of it </S4>
<S1> okay , <NAME S7> </S1>
<S7> alright , erm pretty long paper at least compared to me erm you wrote a lot about different aspects and different things bu- but in principle i think the idea is okay again erm to compare erm finland and ghana erm no problems with that er myself i've got problems combining ICTs and education and that my problem got even stronger after @re-@ reading your paper but that's just probably in me but er first of all i stuck in your erm topic the the topic itself erm educational policies towards erm information society erm well basically i want to mean i i want to ask what you mean by that do you mean that you're going to assess erm information society and reflect educational policies in that or what do you mean by the topic itself </S7>
<S4> yeah exactly er like like you say you know erm this information society er is centred around computerisation <S7> yeah </S7> and the computerisation er , even though it used to be the military strategy of the US has now been taken (xx) you understand and then maybe society as well and er you realise that er everything about computerisation as far as education is concerned to the best of my knowledge er is not well-embedded in the school curriculum you understand <S7> mhm </S7> so it's like information society has taken place and the educational system is (sitting) somewhere and therefore the aims and objectives this time has to be reflected to to to meet what is actually on the ground so i i am thinking of a situation where okay how has the policies and the its implementation been so far in an attempt to level up with the the trend of societal movement or the the the the (xx) (you understand) </S4>
<S7> right , yeah well i i @got@ your point but i still don't really er well educational policies erm , are , in culture they are in history they are in in societies and then this i've got just just problems probably to understand what the er why the information society why why to put er this er aims in educational policies </S7>
<S4> er i i don't i okay </S4>
<S7> why <S4> [er] </S4> [why] to include them why not to teach pu- pupils at school why </S7>
<S4> er anyway i don't know better , why no is that the okay like you say in the teaching the teaching er policies you know policies are the they are skeletal framework that actually guide the (xx) determine what should be done at what time and who you understand so if there is going to be teaching and learning that issue fall within a particular framework that have been designed by the authorities by the stakeholders so we cannot just do something if it's not (spelt) by setting hierarchies </S4>
<S7> right <S4> yeah </S4> okay erm mhm the other thing erm comparing the finnish system and the ghanaian system erm as you listed some some points down in the paper erm well this is the same thing i i have been arguing with you @@ <S4> yeah </S4> in a INSO five course <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er i would say that that erm in order to compare erm you need similar data you need <S4> yeah </S4> like how many computers there and there how many students there and there i mean er these two countries and policies are i understand clearly that i- they are different but in order to compare them and get it into practice i think you should find , er some sort of similarities in the data you are collecting <S4> [okay] </S4> [and then] to compare these [similar things] </S7>
<S4> [okay yeah] yeah i get your point er the comparison is not intended to say maybe which is best or which is first er undoubtedly it's it's it's a commonali- after all finland is leading er information society in the world so the comparison is intended you know to er to to to ascertain from the facts that will be derived so far whether setting paths you know can be applied in the ghanaian situation , you understand <S7> yeah </S7> yeah you want to if you compare you want to maybe draw this okay this and this strictly then they go by what you are saying you have to get a number of PCs you have to get so and so better it's not intended it's something that is is like er maybe maybe if it's accepted by the er hierarchies or whatever then it may even lead up to maybe some people even coming here to do some detailed study you understand so <S7> [mhm] </S7> [it is] not like you are comparing to er to know which is which but er it's it it's it's a comparison that is intended to see if this particular situation can be applied in the ghanaian situation <S7> [alright] </S7> [a- as well] yeah </S4>
<S7> okay [well that's pretty hard] </S7>
<S4> [i don't know i don't know if it's (xx)] </S4>
<S7> i think the task is erm then again er it might be easier to to limit the education to for <S4> [yeah] </S4> [example] to school <S4> [yeah] </S4> [so] education like includes erm so many things like primary and secondary schools or university education <S4> [mhm] </S4> [or] then vocal tr- training anything you well er [just an idea] </S7>
<S4> [i i i think i think] (xx) accept it yeah <S7> [yeah] </S7> [that] is good yeah </S4>
<S7> and erm then erm </S7>
<DISC CHANGE>
<SU-16> [lifelong learning yeah] </SU-16>
<S7> [third page] yeah lifelong learning i think erm lifelong learning for me is just anything people learn er during doing things and that's not education as such as well as you talk about labour market then i didn't get that link to your er <S4> mhm-hm </S4> your topic </S7>
<S4> i think i think that the they they are closely related talking of labour market and talk- but in that particular er place you're talking of i was trying to come out with the characteristics of the information society [and] <S7> [right] yeah </S7> yeah and i was trying to say it's it's a it's an area where lifelong (xx) continuous learning <S7> mhm </S7> is the order of the day for example if you talk of people losing their job as a result to lack of er computer literacy <S7> okay [yeah] </S7> [then] lifelong learning <S7> yeah </S7> becomes the solution </S4>
<S7> right <S4> yeah </S4> okay fine and then erm er these points you make erm at the last paragraph and these questions you make what you're gonna assess i think they were all very good and that clears up the whole text pretty well so mhm , and erm , what else erm just a little note that that <NAME S6> made to me as well er that your erm content erm there's this third last erm , er part of your thesis will be method of collecting data i think er just to ma- er probably at the beginning explaining what what are your methods and how are you gonna do this and then another thing of your content i i er the after introduction the literature review i think all of these lines could be names of master's <SIC> thesises </SIC> so er pretty wide stuff and er probably same advice for all that narrow it down somehow to concentrate on just just comparing these policies or er these education well as i said concentrate on just some parts of educational erm institutions and compare them not to include all the erm turbulence of information society that's a huge thing so none of us could do that @i don't@ think you could <S4> okay </S4> but o- o- okay of course assess [first and interviews] </S7>
<S4> [yeah first] yeah exactly </S4>
<S7> but then then erm not that you but otherwise it's fine good luck </S7>
<S4> thank you </S4>
<S1> well what do others say </S1>
<S8> well i could say something <S1> yeah </S1> erm so erm you spoke about those labour market and needs in there but in my opinion the structure of the labour market is very different in ghana and in finland and do you think you could compare the the societies </S8>
<S4> well there i'm talking of er , the labour market in terms of the needs of computer literacy or this ICT <S8> yes </S8> technology and they they they are not different because er for example if you if you're an accountant and er if somebody is e- employed as an accountant in finland if somebody's is employ- employed as an accountant in ghana he's supposed to use er excel and a computer to work except (xx) the difference lies in in in the language which is finnish and this everything is is equal what i'm saying is it appears that that the society is geared towards er er ICT usage and er we in ghana falls far below er what about better situation er it appears that there's nobody's not very much interested at this time that (xx) they this time (won't) ask to have an addition to that these er computer knowledge and this and and this is what it's like in baku so you know the having if it's not codified in educational system then it's not going to be possible for for for for for the generation to to to be assured of continued employment (when they come out) and to the best of my (xx) you were saying to the best of my i think er there isn't any any any difference with computer acquisition in in here and then computer acquisition in africa </S4>
<S8> well i guess the people work in very different kind of jobs well anyways erm another question erm so do you think that there should be computer teaching at schools in ghana <S4> yes </S4> but erm is there actually any like in finland we start computer er using computer at kindergarten <S4> (oh you do) </S4> and , i guess in ghana you start at university or <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so how to [compare this kind of] </S8>
<S4> [yeah yeah that] that that used to be the pattern that used to be the pattern i remember i never had access to learn computer except when i go to the university and even over there because of the lack of those PCs (xx) to the historical background of computer and that took about 70 per cent of the work that we are doing when do you get to the actual practical work we had to queue we have to go to the computer laboratory quickly you see so like i say (now) it's simply because the the finnish have been able to you know er they have reorganised resources fast and then they have responded to the challenges by even starting as early as kindergarten (xx) with ghanaians is that we don't have that it's not i don't it's not i don't think and i'm sure it's not in our educational system even as (xx) now they talk of technology abroad but it only emphasis of interactivity as i saw in the in the in the in the educational reforms of 2000 2004 which was given to me by professor <NAME S16> so we don't have anything like that </S4>
<S7> there's a <S1> [mhm] </S1> [huge] challenge for you to to put the education system in the light of that particular culture <S4> yeah </S4> somehow it must be compared to the culture or to that situation rather than okay finland is there ghana is there and then just put them together it's just because they are so different <S4> yeah </S4> and erm erm well hard to compare very hard to compare together er just some context some <S1> mhm </S1> different context is <S1> mhm </S1> is needed in order to , mhm combine </S7>
<S1> but you still don't , erm question this feasibility of comparing in principle </S1>
<S7> yeah no <S1> [mhm] </S1> [no] not at all </S7>
<S1> like was the case with <NAME S5> <NAME S5> , different communities but still comparison might bring something valuable yes maybe [<NAME S16> will] </S1>
<S16> [yes first thank] you very much for your preliminary literature review this paper has or it's very very wide paper with and say multisided perspectives on your topic er first about the this title educational policies and er its implementation towards information society i don't see this educational policy that it is a problem in this this title @@ i would like to ask erm about the concept information society er erm are we are we er speaking about information society or er living in the era of of the information society i'm asking this because i see that the er development of of society of the societal er development is a process and the information society is one stage in this process <S4> yeah </S4> so i see that er using this er er in the era of information society you could have more er freedom for instance to define this information society concept <S4> mhm </S4> but i'm not sure we have to discuss later about <S4> yeah </S4> this title </S16>
<S4> yeah i i think i think we are not speaking about that i think we are living in it just you you suggested <S16> yeah </S16> yeah i think we are living because er maybe in ghana we are s- we are speaking about it but here i see the reality <S16> yeah </S16> it's been practiced and er i think <S16> [yeah] </S16> [er] in er japan in in USA i think is <S16> [yeah] </S16> [is] is on is on- os- on board so <S16> yes </S16> we are actually not speaking about it yes </S4>
<S16> <SIGH> then the er first subtitle is introduction reasons for choosing the topic you have er erm , er more reasons here first you have er written very deeply about the the questions on employment and the connections between ICT or or okay ICT and and information society and and employment or er unemployment this is very interesting er thinking er for instance the situation nowadays er in finland the rate of er unemployment in finland is more than in in the reality the real numbers are more than ten per cent <S1> mhm </S1> and we are living at the stage of information society <S4> yeah </S4> and er comparing for instance i'm not sure if i have right information but but i was so so young in the 50s last century but after second world war in finland we had , i have er that kind of information er full employment <S1> mhm </S1> and and er comparing er that that stage of of er er societal er er development and comparing to this stage of information society there are very great differences </S16>
<S4> yeah okay <S16> [and] </S16> [yeah] it's true like you're saying that er for (me) the information society has created some unemployment in [(xx)] </S4>
<S16> [so] so we can can ask <S4> okay </S4> if the information society is a solution , in the problems of unemployment for instance </S16>
<S4> okay , er yes i think it's it's a solution erm i haven't acquired the technical knowledge <S16> mhm </S16> i think it depends upon how the the authorities employ the factors of production in the system to create jobs and then to solve the problems associated with the with the <S16> mhm </S16> maybe ICT explosion it was er what i realise having gone through a lot of this er er literature in the course and all that i i realise that er it becomes inevitable er whether we like it or no- whether it would create employment or unemployment the business world er seems to be (championing) the (cause) by u- by using a computer by using innovation so we are left with nothing than to acquire the skill that is needed you know to enable us er er er live and erm if you look at the situation like er for example with er er in ghana we don't have anything like unemployment with er unemployment benefit but this in finland er you realise that the efficiency of the labour that is the productivity of labour is so high and as a result you know is able is able to meet the tax and that tax is able to cater for even the unemployed and i see it as a something coming out of the the the productivity or let's say the increase er er er er er supply of labour as a result of the use of this er multifaceted er machine so it is better than it is better in in an innovative system for let's say productivity to increase as a result of labour be more technical so that you can (part) some of this (xx) to cater for those who are up and coming (xx) you say that okay this advance (what i even) experience in unemployment (xx) at all and that becomes that becomes a a problem a very big problem </S4>
<S16> okay then , further , you have written er very positively or or okay er beautiful words about the finnish information society erm and and for instance er here you have been <READING ALOUD> finland is a small country but it has er caused a stir in the world affairs by emerging as the most competitive </READING ALOUD> and so on er country in the world do you know erm , those erm PISA research on on er educational skills of of er pupils in the secondary school this is an international comparative er research on erm er different skills on reading mathematics and and er maybe the third was er science [education] <S1> [yeah] yeah </S1> yes and and er the result was that that er when we are , er or the total result was that the finland was number one in the whole world <S4> [okay] </S4> [so] this is very interesting question , er is there some boundaries between this success and the competitiveness of of finnish society the educational system the quality of educational system and the competitiveness , how how important <S4> mhm-hm </S4> , is the quality of the educational system taking for instance this er move towards information society </S16>
<S4> erm how important is the educational system towards the information <S16> [yeah] </S16> [society] okay er i think the importance lies in the the er acquisition of er those er gadgets that form the core of the information society and that is exactly what finland is doing er for example erm , er the literature actually indicates that er er nokia has been in the system for a very long time and maybe coincidentally or er er formally planned it er er it has come this stage where the mobile phone and the the computer er are now on high demand and to perpetuate this er leadership role let's say continued productivity of these er gadgets implies that er educational system should continue to produce people in those with those skills </S4>
<S16> okay then (for) <S4> yeah </S4> okay then then <SIGH> , er we see that's the educational system is er very important part in the quality of information society and the finnish er educational system is is er global model or ideal <S4> okay </S4> it is possible to apply this system to ghana </S16>
<S4> yeah that's a a yeah er to some extent yes to some extent no that's why i i indicated in my literature review <S16> [yeah] </S16> [that] er how have to take an in-depth study of the finnish way of life and that of ghana as well so that er adjustments can be made where necessary er where necessary so that er <S16> [yes] </S16> [things] can mo- move on <S16> yes </S16> a- actually it cannot be er it cannot be a carbon copy <S16> yeah [yes] </S16> [yeah] it can't be a [carbon copy] </S4>
<S16> ['cause the] the er it's a very interesting part in <S16> [yeah] </S16> [your] paper this theory and method of comparative education you are er referring here altbach er er who is writing about lending and borrowing <S4> yeah </S4> and that is very in- interesting because er er when we are looking er the history of er comparative education or or the methods of comparative education the first stage was called er er more than er 150 years ago the method of traveller's tales </S16>
<S4> mhm </S4>
<S1> traveller's </S1>
<S16> traveller's tales </S16>
<S1> da- [ta- tales] </S1>
<S16> [ta- tales] tales <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's a same method you are are writing here about those those japanese er court to send a mission to china to study the empire's education system <S4> yeah </S4> it's also known in the 19th century in in europe <S4> okay </S4> , so , okay er , so one one <COUGH> question about those er choosing the topic you are writing here about also erm <READING ALOUD> the ghanaian community prides itself in academic excellence </READING ALOUD> and so on and then this is also i i see as as reason er <READING ALOUD> the study will therefore be an eye-opener where ghana will benefit immensely form the experiences of finland in its network system </READING ALOUD> <S4> yeah </S4> er is this the main reason er for choosing the topic or not </S16>
<S4> yeah okay erm , i i think er er they are in (xx) <S16> mhm </S16> if if you learn er the the educational policies which is more or less centred on the ICT then in a way you can apply it it's only when you know something better that you can apply it well </S4>
<S16> okay then you have er referred to frank webster here in in the defi- definition and features of information society these er five main perspectives <S4> yeah </S4> erm er have you thought er about this these er perspectives which is er for your topic the most important technological economist er occupational geographical or or the final perspective called cultural </S16>
<S4> is it which one i find more likely </S4>
<S16> yeah or more more important in your comparison <S4> [okay] </S4> [when] you are comparing or or when you are defining for your comparison the information society <S4> yeah </S4> which is the essen- essential er part or side </S16>
<S4> mhm-hm okay to me er i was trying to come out with a definition of er information just like you advised that er i had to look at a concept of information society and then in finland in USA which i couldn't done i couldn't do that of USA but er i was trying to find a definition of information society that er i think i couldn't lay hands on any and therefore er i i found webster's er er analysis of er this terminology to (xx) but it wasn't er er he was also not very concrete and therefore i also had (xx) but i think the the technological aspect is i- is er seems to seems to be the leader er it seems techno- is as a result of technology that er all these er things have come into being and the the economies use what is already there the society use what is already there and i find technological point of view to be more convincing as a </S4>
<S16> mhm <S4> yeah </S4> so , then er later what's which page now there's the right here the educational reform of finland </S16>
<S1> well you find with this big <S16> yeah </S16> big type of </S1>
<S16> there is no side numbers here </S16>
<SU> <FOREIGN> kuus </FOREIGN> six </SU>
<S16> six yes educational reform of finland i see that the this title i- is is too strongly said because er , this content you are er using here er is have no- nothing to do er educational reform i see that it is too too too strongly said er i- it would be better thing and and er say for instance er mhm contents or directions or or headlines of the finnish educational policies at first decade of the 21st century or so <S4> okay </S4> <WHISPERING> okay </WHISPERING> </S16>
<S7> but there are <S1> yeah </S1> if <S1> [mhm] </S1> [if] there are they are just advices in finland and they are reforms in ghana there is the difference if they are reforming the educational system in ghana but they are just advising in finland where to go or </S7>
<S16> just it is real er thing that since er 30 35 years we have had many stages of educational reforms in finland but [but] </S16>
<S1> [many] reforms [yeah mhm] </S1>
<S16> [yes but] today it's better er speak about as i said about the directions contents or or headlines of educational policies </S16>
<S9> can i ask a question <S1> yeah </S1> er just just a @general@ question because if you are going to study these two societies and you say that you am i right that you saying that you kind of want to see if this finnish system is can be implemented <S4> [mhm] </S4> [in] ghana is this right <S4> yeah </S4> but what if while studying this finnish system you find that it isn't very good at all could you then accept it </S9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> why not </S4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> [(xx)] </S4>
<S9> [it's just be a study and you find something] there which isn't quite </S9>
<S4> actually </S4>
<S9> @@ </S9>
<S10> if you will find something there which is bad that cannot be (implemented) maybe it will (xx) please don't apply that that is bad you apply all that is good [(xx)] </S10>
<S4> [no yeah what what] what i plan is that y- yeah er i think er the this is this is er academic study er which is er intended to help the growth of knowledge you see so i am not maybe after writing it going to implement anything but <S9> [mhm] </S9> [if] the authorities get hold of it or in a course of let's say students or (xx) get hold of it then they can see okay these are very good material let's implement it wholly or partly like any report you are not bound to implement everything wholly you can do selective report and which ever you think is appropriate </S4>
<S9> mhm yes i see your point but i'm just wondering because a lot of people are criticising information society in finland <S4> mhm-hm </S4> but are you taking information society in finland as a positive really good thing because you would have to really if you want to then <S16> [i yes] </S16> [move that] to ghana because you can really be critical [if you want to] </S9>
<S16> [i have also also] (xx) that that er you the finland is an ideal model of of information society <S4> mhm </S4> or </S16>
<S4> yeah er @@ i i maybe if you can repeat the @question@ , i i don't i don't get the question (wh- what) </S4>
<S9> it's just that if if there are so many criticisms <S4> [mhm] </S4> [towards] the finnish model and so many people see it as imperfect could you then see it as an ideal model that you want to actually use </S9>
<S4> oh yeah actually i i i don't s- i don't see anything wrong with the with the model </S4>
<S9> but if you do when you start studying it but you then find all the criticism </S9>
<S4> of course if if there are some criticism why don't i write it you understand yeah but er on the surface on the surface i i i think it's very good doesn't you know i'm go- i'm not going to the the the thesis is not centred on information society it's centred on maybe information society and in greater part in ICT development you understand er so that that that that is the that is the the- </S4>
<S9> i suppose finland would be an ideal model in that we have lots of ICT <S4> yes </S4> but then the effects [i'm not sure] </S9>
<S4> [yeah the] effects </S4>
<S16> okay one one well one well two words @@ about the comparison er there are two or more possibilities first have discussion about the finnish model , is the finland good or best model of information society and er okay we can do so that we have this model <DRAWING ON BLACKBOARD> finnish model and the comparison is compare ghana to finland or we have two societies <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> finland and ghana where we are living in in different stages of the <S1> mhm </S1> er er societal development <S1> mhm </S1> <S4> yeah </S4> here we have I-S information society and and information society in ghana is waiting here or is is written <S10> [is very small] </S10> [very small] letters so we could compare (the) each others this is real comparison <S4> okay </S4> so , after this comparison as i earlier said er that we have the or or try to find differences similarities interpret these differences and similarities or try to understand cultural backgrounds the history of of countries for instance er the impact of of colonialism in ghana and so on </S16>
<S4> yeah . exactly , okay </S4>
<S1> what <S7> [is is this the] </S7> [can can we] ask him what would <NAME S4> think [(xx)] </S1>
<S16> [we were] discussing the <S1> yeah yeah but </S1> some day ago <S1> [yeah] </S1> [about] about this this backgrounds <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] for instance the cultural backgrounds the frameworks <S4> [yeah] </S4> [which] are very important when we are are <S1> yeah </S1> are erm comparing this kind of countries </S16>
<S1> what what would you place yourself with your plan what would you like to do this approach or this approach </S1>
<S4> i th- i think er </S4>
<S16> or is it mixed </S16>
<S4> @i think@ i think the second approach </S4>
<S16> yes </S16>
<S1> yeah of course one could erm dogmatically er say that you can't compare origins and and those pre-industrial society and post-industrial society somebody might say so but i think it's it's really worth comparing because it is a fact it's an empirical fact that I-S is a topic , not only in finland but also in in ghana there is a there are policies and debates and so on and some erm some er sort of rudimentary <S4> yeah </S4> development and so on and it's it's in a way quite interesting to to to expose these <S4> yeah </S4> put them against each other exactly from the point of view of I-S overdeveloped underdeveloped and and and to to see the </S1>
<S16> because it <S1> [so] </S1> [is] it is possible also that we can learn about er the <S1> [yeah] </S1> [situation] or the educational policy or educational system or the culture in ghana <S4> yes </S4> and that that's why this kind the second alternative is is very much better than this <S4> [mhm] </S4> [this] model comparison idea </S16>
<S4> okay </S4>
<S1> mhm-hm but you also should have this little sub-chapter on the methodological question on comparing i mean com- , comparative studies in in in general it's a typical comparative study like in <NAME S5>'s case also , but erm yeah okay let's go on if if there are other aspects any remarks from er . others . are you getting exhausted <SU> yeah yes </SU> this is the 14th paper we are , discussing well anyhow er like with all the others we are not er suggesting , to <NAME S4> or like all the others we are encouraging <NAME S4> to continue we everybody has been on the acceptable track more or less , er and er like with everybody else , he gets er food for thought erm from this process , er or discussion , and he need to continue with his supervisor like everybody needs to continue with with er with er respective supervisors <P:07> er , we see we all good supervisors have given some er or will give some concrete papers er to to er , to continue . and er well , we can er before we close this er <NAME S4>'s , paper i'd like to raise one question <NAME S4> and , and er <PEOPLE WHISPERING TO EACH OTHER> they are so excited that they can't stop , yeah , one one issue i'd like to rela- er raise here also with regard to <NAME S10> also regarding your both of you had the bibliography in a well i just er raise use this opportunity you had a bibliography where you had numbered let's take your bibliography you had er nine nine items there er and i i i you also had a long two pages of bibliography with numbered items and er i didn't quite follow the logic they were not footnotes which had respective numbers in the text and we usually in in in most social sciences nowadays we don't use these footnotes some areas they do but we usually use references in the text which have the author and year in brackets which would then er be found in the bibliography in alphabetical order you didn't have alphabetical order either although this first one is er A but the next one is W and then it goes <SS> [@@] </SS> [quite] and it was most of your erm references in the text are not found here in the bibliography so i would like to draw your attention that er at the master's thesis at least you should be very consistent these are little formalities but they are essential because the whole scientific discourse is based on certain rules like the traffic is based on traffic rules and it's er er it should be always very easy to to locate er the the sources er and have all the information regarding the sources in a systematic er consistent way er presented in the bibliography at this stage this is just a remark er remainder er i i don't want to ma- be too fussy about erm because we didn't give you any instructions maybe we'll erm they have prepared in the ISS some advice for erm source source erm referencing and so on which we might follow in the final stage but erm that's something just to draw your attention it would be good that in the next next papers if you erm are making references and and using ma- making bibliographies to do it in a in a consistent way in this case many of you did not have one bibliography but several put under certain titles like <NAME S17> had and er that's quite okay it's it was even better in this case because we could get easier thematic packages but erm in in general i think the doctrine followed in social sciences is that we have a big one bibliography and everything including internet addresses are there <S16> yeah </S16> er organised according or ordered alphabetically as as normal but er anyhow [let's later] </S1>
<S10> [well for me] i didn't also i didn't put them in order of alphabet but i put it in order of years of (and they were) </S10>
<S1> that's right you had a logic yes they were but that's that's erm not [quite it's it's not very] </S1>
<S10> [still not quite (xx) @@] </S10>
<S1> very erm customary and it's not very er practical <S10> [okay] </S10> [i i] i think </S1>
<S10> yeah we should follow the <S1> [yeah] </S1> [of the] of the </S10>
<S1> okay no erm <NAME S2> is coming probably and we can move on do we have a little break or continue [immediately] </S1>
<S10> [no please] continue [(xx)] </S10>
<S2 ENTERS THE ROOM>
<S1> [continue yeah] you just came we finished er <NAME S4>'s paper [(we are done)] </S1>
<S2> [sorry i am i'm] ten minutes late </S2>
<S1> no we we needed . we would start with this timetable . timetable and the next stage er the next stage is i believe you all need to re-formulate your research problem and er , er we have done enough literature review now that we can er we don't need to ask you to make another literature review paper you continue with reading and searching for sources et cetera but that's your homework what is mostly needed now is to come back to define your research er sort of problem and and and er er , it was ari-veikko antti-roiko i believe , on monday who suggested that with the next step might be short paper maybe two three pages er which would er attempt to focus er to de- define realistically and more sort of focused way your mhm </S1>
<S2> there maybe someone </S2>
<S1> your er research [erm topic] </S1>
<S16> [research problem (xx)] </S16>
<S1> research problem , and er , number one and number two the the framework frame of reference kind of theoretical er er frame of reference er not again to list all the 50 authors of the literature but to just put in synthetic very brief way </S1>
<S2> yeah most important then some words about app- theoretical approach of the [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [yeah theoretical approaches which are] yeah erm within which or against which i am doing this <S2> yeah </S2> and then er the third thing was the er the the concrete erm , <S2> [yeah] </S2> [source] er well er if there is empirical material [gathered then] </S1>
<S2> [data and] how it's [collected and] </S2>
<S1> [yeah] what kind of data if any er am i going to , collect beyond libraries and erm what ideas do i have currently to to to erm am i going to interview the pispala citizens or am i going to interview the heads of delegations in geneva or something in between <S2> and the </S2> or the polit bureau of china or the the outcast er poor people of village number 5088 in northern region of china [or erm] </S1>
<S2> [and the] data can be understood widely so various interviews various statistical material but also earlier studies making secondary analysis of them for for your own purposes and or the documents and official statistical information and if it's theoretical work you can think that the earlier publication about theories there is a lot is the material </S2>
<S1> mhm yeah the this third part the material part is not so crucial for those who are doing it as desk research as <S2> [mhm] </S2> [literature] based <S2> mhm </S2> conceptual theoretical research only er in in this case we would accept we welcome both so-called theoretical only er thesis and a mixture between theoretical and empirical er something which is not acceptable is only empirical namely er 100 pages package of paper which doesn't have a single book as reference source reference just saying i this has been [colle- data is colle-] </S1>
<S16> [it's not it's not a research] </S16>
<S1> well but there are such things as well somewhere </S1>
<S2> there has been many of that kind of books where are only interviews directly written @@ </S2>
<S1> yeah yeah [we we compel] </S1>
<S2> [(xx) people have said (xx)] </S2>
<S1> you to use your brain and digest literature erm but on the other hand we do respect also some empirical if that is manageable even limited case studies here and there <S2> yeah </S2> er , we had a big dispute some 20 years ago at the faculty of social sciences in tampere university whether in psychology only theoretical er master's thesis were possible the pro- professor was very empirically oriented he was also outstanding theorist but he said a master's thesis must have data and one very talented student came and presented a thesis which was only on theory he despised empirical thought it's trivial and i want to be a big philosopher of psychology and the professor blocked it and the guy appealed even to the to the it it was la- la- le- law process he <S2> [yeah] </S2> [appealed] to the <FOREIGN> oikeusasiamies </FOREIGN> the parliament's er [er] <S16> [om-] ombudsman </S16> ombudsman and and won the case and i remember sitting in the faculty board voting against this chair of psychology <S2> yeah </S2> department's <NAME> yeah yeah <NAME> <SS> @@ </SS> he's he's already up there <SS> @@ </SS> with the saint peter's [he died a few years ago] </S1>
<SU-16> [are you sure] </SU-16>
<S2> [and (xx) very] good scientist </S2>
<S1> yeah very good scient- <S2> [yes] </S2> [but] he had a dogmatic that [theoretical er] </S1>
<S2> [very dogmatic yes] </S2>
<S1> works only are not <S2> [yeah] </S2> [acceptable] we are more liberal we we nowadays it's possible to accept the theoretical only so if some of you would like to have only theoretical that's fine but but usually i i think it's most rewarding to have a combination </S1>
<S2> and most of you have </S2>
<S1> yeah [already yeah okay] </S1>
<S2> [some kind of combination] </S2>
<S1> let's , go to the dates because he needs to go we can discuss later and we shall discuss this question of what is the master's thesis et cetera but maybe the next the next stage this is er something we should er discuss er as a matter of common but we thought that two days might be enough if we have a two full days we <S16> [yes] </S16> [could] squeeze we know now enough of each other's topics so that we go er rather directly and we we shall thoroughfully discuss each case half an hour at least maybe three quarters but we could do them in two two days if we al- take two days and even eve- evening between for some drinking <SS> @@ </SS> so what about what about those dates are they acceptable [for you] </S1>
<S16> [yes] yes </S16>
<S2> (xx) </S2>
<S1> that last days two days of november october </S1>
<S2> i think they are they are okay for me the only possible exception is that the days which are we had one certain trip in europe because of one research project and if the other partners the <S1> mhm </S1> seven countries are not satisfied with our time <S1> [mhm] </S1> [schedule] then it's impossible to </S2>
<S1> but can we make a kind of reserve erm if we would er take it one week [earlier] </S1>
<S2> [this is] i think </S2>
<S1> two options <S2> full </S2> fr- thursday and friday er preferably the last two days of october but if one of the tutors or we haven't [decided] </S1>
<S16> [we have] also discuss with with haapala [and antti-roiko yeah] </S16>
<S1> [haapala and antti-roiko yeah] so if if one or two of them absolutely cannot be then we sha- we should find another option , yeah we should all be present ideally i mean all the tutors for the whole time and you two then it would be <S16> [yes (xx)] </S16> [efficient so what about one] one week earlier is that <S16> it </S16> possible [yeah] </S1>
<S16> [yeah] it it is always possible </S16>
<S1> yeah 20 23 and 20- as as a [reserve 23 and 24] </S1>
<S16> [okay bye see you later] </S16>
<S16 LEAVING THE ROOM>
<SS> see you bye </SS>
<S1> yeah thank you <NAME S16> yeah so <S2> [which papers] </S2> [they are also] these are kind of er reserve dates so be prepared that you should in any case submit your research , er sort of er the this paper that we discussed erm around 20th of , october so you have now five or six weeks time right yeah </S1>
<S4> er wh- what is what is the the number of pages or [you said (xx)] </S4>
<S2> [the] </S2>
<SU-9> [two] </SU-9>
<S1> [not] more than three pages </S1>
<S2> three pages <S1> yeah </S1> about [written] </S2>
<S4> [on the] on the research problem <S2> yeah </S2> [and then and then the reference] </S4>
<S1> [research problem number one er] the the frame of reference theoretical er approach number two and empirical material <S2> mhm </S2> or material <S2> yeah </S2> er number three </S1>
<S4> okay </S4>
<S2> yeah it's er different kind of writing maybe than earlier papers because you try to say everything exactly and shortly so it's good to practise as also the kind of writing </S2>
<S1> so papers on the let's say 20th of october is that er . okay what's the 20th of oct- it's <S9> [monday] </S9> [monday] yeah </S1>
<S2> 20th <SS> yeah </SS> yeah okay , so it's also possible to read them </S2>
<S1> okay </S1>
<S9> what about the follow-up seminar what [about what time (xx)] </S9>
<S1> [yeah the ne- you mean] the next one <S9> [mhm] </S9> [after] that i think we would we would need to have something at the end of november again </S1>
<S9> definitely before geneva </S9>
<S1> yeah yeah before geneva already because even if people would not go there it would be part of this sort of general teaching and geneva is er nine to 14 of december yeah but before that we would have another one but let's decide the dates later it's too speculative now </S1>
<S9> but end of [november yes] </S9>
<S1> [end of november] or first days of december just one more this autumn and then , er then in the spring i think from january or february onwards we would have rather regular meetings er where you would present a lengthy paper each of you and we would discuss it and it would already be a draft of part of your thesis right <S2> yeah </S2> and then we would have a need to spend at least one hour per case yeah <P:06> ah yeah <NAME S2> is asking whether we should have again an opponent on on er october maybe not maybe we could we are now more or less becoming socialised we know each other <SU> [yeah] </SU> [and] it's a common discussion and . yeah and everybody would be present for the whole so please reserve now in your calendars and er be sure that the viruses don't collapse you during those days so we would all be present like this time i think this was a useful exercise wasn't it these <S10> [yes it was] </S10> [three days] it was a good choice to have it at this time <S4> yes </S4> and to book it in package of three days i think we are we are reasonably well on the way towards the thesis er that's that's it's realistic that you can do with with a very great effort things ready by april er may next year so that you could get the papers out the total er master's thesis yeah maybe we this is something we should discuss later i would say er usually they are not shorter than 50 pages usually they are not longer than 200 pages something </S1>
<S2> [(xx)] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [so we are very liberal even there] but a- as a kind of general target 100 , <S2> yeah </S2> well [and then] </S1>
<S2> [from] 80 to 100 [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [80] yeah usually not even , 100 maybe </S1>
<S2> yeah yeah it's er </S2>
<S1> but it depends how many words per page we should look at <S2> [yeah] </S2> [discuss] those things next time </S1>
<S2> and er in some of your works there will be i think obligatory appendices and those who <S1> [yes] </S1> [which] are then counted over </S2>
<S1> yeah right yeah , okay so this was the timetable and now about the geneva let me ask er leena wilkman to join us </S1>
