<TITLE: Global Challenges of eDevelopment Conference 2
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: technology
DISCIPLINE: information sciences
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS08B
NOTES: session includes presentations CPRE08I/L/P (CDIS08A and CPRE08A-F/H are part of the same conference)

RECORDING DURATION: 99 min 35 sec

RECORDING DATE: 15.3.2005

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 39

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 27

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Uzbek; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bengali; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

NS16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (New Zealand); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S22: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Greek; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S23: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S24: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S25: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S26: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S27: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S28: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: unknown; AGE: unknown

S29: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S30: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Hindi; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S31: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S32: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S33: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Chinese; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S34: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S35: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S36: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Kihaya, Swahili; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S37: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S38: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Berber; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S39: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>



<PRESENTATION CPRE08I by S22>

<S23> so please </S23>
<S17> mhm (xx) so in traditional I-P the ide- the argument is that you want in order to encourage innovation you have er patent protection <S22> mhm-hm </S22> so it seems like an extreme erm argument for traditional knowledge would be let's not protect it at all because the innovation has already happened and anything you know happening forward could be protected by through patent protection (as you said) , does that make sense <S22> erm </S22> i'm i'm just saying that's an extreme position but </S17>
<S22> to not protect [it at all so] </S22>
<S17> [yeah don't protect it] at all because the technology has already been developed and so the argument for you know for argument for patent protection doesn't apply </S17>
<S22> erm well yes and no @i@ see what you mean but erm there's still a lot to be gained a lot of new knowledge i i imagine to be gained from traditional knowledge so giving no protection at all er i think would go against the interest of everyone </S22>
<S17> but isn't that new knowledge then pr- protectable through [regular] </S17>
<S22> [because] there's also knowledge that you can you know you can have some information and then you build on this information <S17> right </S17> to get something new erm </S22>
<S17> but wouldn't that be protectable under existing [I-P law] </S17>
<S22> [that would definitively be] protectable <S17> right </S17> but wouldn't it be in a way free-riding as to use [information this] </S22>
<S17> [yeah i agree it doesn't seem] it doesn't <S22> [yeah] </S22> [seem] just but </S17>
<S22> somehow i mean there are arguments in in in both directions er i could argue for both actually and that's why there's this big debate </S22>
<S23> mhm i would <COUGH> , encourage y- er encourage er you to carry on with the discussion er er suggesting that that we forget a- about patents here because <COUGH> because er the concept ca- er carries with itself a a the component of novelty <S22> mhm </S22> and in traditional er kna- knowledge er er that is a er non sequitur <S22> mhm-hm </S22> so let's talk er more generally of erm I-P protection , please </S23>
<S24> yeah i would just like to push a little bit further his suggestion because i think that what he was suggesting (xx) with I-Ps you have this er incentive er objective but in traditional knowledge you don't have it as he said and maybe maybe the I-P type of protection is not at all the right kind of protection for traditional knowledge </S24>
<S22> yeah you're [probably right] </S22>
<S24> [because i's] i've heard many many indigenous people saying that this is something outside of commerce this is something especially with regard to protection of traditional expressions cultural expressions <S22> mhm </S22> it's something er they want to keep outside of commerce they don't want to introduce any sort of er protection er for commercial goods which I-P [is] </S24>
<S22> [it depends] actually [because] </S22>
<S24> [well] it depends yeah but er [er you could use] </S24>
<S22> [when you talk about] </S22>
<S24> you can use the existing er protection measures if you want to introduce something new if you make er and copyright covers a whole lot <S22> mhm </S22> geographical indicators cover a whole lot but then with regard to the traditional knowledge as such maybe we should think of a different different sorts of because i definitely think that it should be protected somehow but maybe not by I-P but <S22> [mhm] </S22> [some-] something different </S24>
<S22> mhm mhm mhm like i would agree with you for of course traditional knowledge in the narrow sense is more linked to patents but this might not be the best answer to protect it because of the novelty as we said and because of other factors now as far as traditional cultural expressions are concerned erm well here again we think that they're more linked to copyright but again copyright is probably i mean from from my experience and from my research it's probably not the best answer to protect traditional cultural expressions and from what i think erm you might rather want to look at erm certification marks geographical indications and trademarks to protect traditional cultural expressions again it won't protect every aspect and that's the same for all I-P rights even if you look for TK you won't have every aspects protected so you don't have full protection but some aspects are are protected and then for the rest either we have to think about (xx) rights that is maybe based on intellectual property rights so you have the same system the same thought behind but will have erm different criteria of protection so that er TK could be covered somehow </S22>
<S23> yes please </S23>
<S25> mhm-hm now if you think important er notion came from from <NAME S24>'s presentation this brazilian proposal <COUGH> that i think much of the debate on on on I-P and @TK@ <S22> mhm </S22> is because the people in the developing countries feel that the- there's there's a constant constant exploitation taking <S22> [mhm-hm] </S22> [place] genetic resources and folklore and everything so if this kind of measure was taken put put in a place for for the brazil as proposed in this UNESCO framework that all governments in the north should make sure that their intellectual property regime doesn't er contribute to bio-piracy or or or <S22> [mhm] </S22> [this kind] of er one-way exploitation then the the nature of debate could could quite er clearly change and some time back i read a canadian paper quite written long back ten years ago where he when there was er this this concept of four four worlds and different views on I-P the first world of capitalists with (xx) like private property then socialist (know) like state property then there was something and then the fourth with the indigenous notion <S22> mhm-hm </S22> where er knowledge is a gift people get it as a gift and @they're@ to give and and and it's then the problem is this unitary I-P regime <S22> [mhm-hm] </S22> [that] that one system has been then imposed on on very different traditions and very different realities but i would be happy to hear your you have introduced the debate but what would be your personal @@ </S25>
<S22> my [personal opinion] </S22>
<S25> [@personal@] @opinion on@ on what would would [be the way] </S25>
<S22> [yeah] yeah erm even though i've been working @@ with traditional knowledge and mainly erm traditional cultural expressions for almost two years now i'm not convinced they should be protected with intellectual property rights i mean erm , yeah i'm not i mean it's still still to be i'm still waiting to be convinced erm sometimes i i'm more on the one side sometimes on the other side erm i have seen some positive results as i said with geographical indications and there's some talks now to extend the treaty protection to handicrafts <SU>  mhm-hm </SU> er so that's definitely something that is real it's here i have the feeling that all these talks don't go anywhere as you said i think before it's a very political debate so if you if you go to WIPO to the session on on folklore traditional knowledge and genetic resources erm you have the feeling from one session to the other they're not making any progress they're still saying the same things erm united states and well their allies let's say have their opinion they don't want certain things protected erm and developing countries want and you know th- there's no progress so with things are as they are now i i don't see any breakthrough coming coming out to be honest [so] </S22>
<S23> [mhm-hm] <NAME S24> please </S23>
<S24> uh-huh just to continue a little bit with regard to the UNESCO convention proposal there is a proposal i think i think that it was er suggested by the chairman that the er and this would be interesting with regard to the brazilian and chinese proposal is that the not not that the this UNESCO con- no other international convention should be in in er contradiction to the UNESCO con- er convention <S22> mhm </S22> and but the UNESCO co- er convention would not contradict as such to any international existing agreement <S22> mhm-hm </S22> but er if it were to have this er sort of a paragraph on the protection of traditional knowledge <S22> mhm-hm </S22> it would be a big step forward if there there would be a good political climate to keep it there <S22> [mhm-hm] </S22> [to] have that sort of protection <S22> mhm-hm </S22> because then other conventions should be interpreted </S24>
<S22> mhm-hm [in the le- in the light of yeah of course] </S22>
<S24> [in accordance to this and er] we can't say that it overrides anything er but if there's nothing to override because er in a fact there is nothing <S22>  mhm-hm </S22> so it it it would be very interesting if th- if they could keep it there </S24>
<S22> yeah <S23> [er] </S23> [if] as we said <S23> [yes] </S23> [earlier] it would </S22>
<S23> er <COUGH> we carry on er discussion and er i i ask that that er you start switching er er switching <COUGH> i would just er , just er m- er mention that er the theme of <COUGH> protectional er traditional er knowledge , touches some v- some very sore iss- er issues or or dis- er discussions i think we should keep in mind that er that er incentives and encouragement er traditional ju- er justification so I-P-R er both are parts of industrialism both of them are are a- are <COUGH> part of teleological s- er sy- systems and (xx) be some- er something for social gain or co- commercial gain now er talking of tra- traditional knowledge <COUGH> i myself perceive er more a pattern of su- su- a su- survival strategies than developing something into something else and just to ask for your opinion er personally i'm more and more er er suspicious about these buzzwords incentive and encouragement of course both of them have have noble heri- heritage from er er 19th century but er i'm not very sure if er if er they ever were more than verbal justifications for systems nee- needed in developing big industrial societies , actually er thi- er this was a short form of what er doctor er <NAME S24> er told repeatedly in her , splendid er (xx) half an hour a- ago , so , are we er ready <S25> yeah </S25> to go over smoothly now </S23>
<S25> i think so </S25>
<S23> please </S23>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08J by S25, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S23> so <COUGH> where are the (representation of) <COUGH> corporations and er traditional interpretation of I-T-R </S23>
<S25> not not here maybe </S25>
<S23> not in with er this room as far as i i i understand but please </S23>
<S22> okay yes just a question to understand erm when you talk about democratic innovation system so you said that the different erm treatment for as to call essential goods and for the other ones <S25> mhm </S25> so what could these be erm what what could be the differences i mean <S25> yeah </S25> in terms of maybe intellectual protection </S22>
<S25> mhm i think one obvious thing that it would be necessary would be this de-linking of trade agreements from from I-P I-P agreements that there's no from trade theory and there's no justification for that it's all power politics so so and this com- concept was sort of brilliant that we give some some some concessions in trade and then then as and from the north and then the developing countries help to conceive too too er this very costly I-P system er and then whatever i m- there's the paris agreement there's the bern agreement let them be there i i don't think there's so much trouble in in those as such it's just that that they have been put in to a to a context through WTO which makes er this kind of misinterpreta- no well well with well one one thing i think is the misinterpretation of of TRIPS agreement that that that er whenever some poor government was trying to do something with the medicine then the US embassy and the US corporations were saying that this would take you to WTO dispute settlement which they don't want and and they can't afford at any cost so , so then there can be then two agreements on i mean two if needed and if we can @ge- get rid of@ TRIPS TRIPS agreement and if there's need for some kind of er patent what is it comprehensive patent agreement then let it be done separately for for all kind of gadgets and then separately if needed for or i think there would be then two agreements one for gadgets on I-P and then for public goods on sharing and and and and for colabo- collaborative development , and since it's not very likely that the TRIPS agreement will be undone very fast very soon so then whatever initiatives there's for example this development agenda in WIPO can then address this and i think then that's the spirit that the public goods global public goods need different treatment and the TRIPS agreement actually allows it if only politically and pow- and the the the those wh- who are in who are in the power would allow er the these things to be done </S25>
<S23> because we have <COUGH> time so why not <COUGH> try to expand the <COUGH> issue a bit now we seem to be talking of er goods doctor er <NAME S24> was very , er clear about er <COUGH> public goo- er er er goods their need of course i totally agree after TRIPS we are get- er possibly getting GATS general a- agreement on trade services so please all o- all of you what's y- what's your i- idea about the traditional dichotomy between goods and services at least in law they are created in dramatically different er ways and i'm just , thinking of this basic pattern you have been describing and er want to point out that that er the multinational corporations er partly the same corporations that are very eager to press on er in intellectual pro- er property er and to tighten for instance copyright er seem to be at at the same time broadening the field of copyright practices two days ago i read in a tabloid that that there is this television quiz er its c- concept has been sold to one hundred companies and er i'm dead certain that er a concept for a quiz can be protected by copyright as little as for instance er olympic games or soccer championships but the copyright practices have already taken over and the money moving around these things is er er something something enormous so the last mentioned are , services <S25> [mhm] </S25> [(public)] (trade) services <S25> mhm </S25> broadcasting for instance olympic games or er er giving so- er somebody er a right to use the concept of television programme and so on so are we able to try to frame our concerns er as well against public goods as public services </S23>
<P:05>
<S25> i don't know if there are experts in this room which might might might well address the difference but one one more challenge i'd like to put like like <NAME NS16> was speaking about the university practices that i'm i'm quite be- bewildered about the the way copyrights are transferred by in academic journals so whenever somebody wants to publish an academic jourmal journal then with the acceptance letter comes a a copyright agreement and and i don't know what is what what it in in practice really means then for people but theoretically this is a transfer of of of of of ownership @@ and then er those journalist the precious journals they are all published in quite a few countries so it's i- and in finland now the the main success er rating for academic achievement is international publishing so the whole academic community has been geared to cumulate ownership of information in few countries in few publishing houses and in in few er whatever institutions w- which ru- which then run and and have this copyright and and if this this this is the kind of knowledge society and creative society that we are you know at in in and and should be more more of it i i'm a bit er amazed but i have also not been able to look at this more carefully </S25>
<S23> that's a very good e- e- er e- er example because <COUGH> today what might happen that i- if if you get your paper published in a in a review publi- er publication so elsevier er er demands that er that you give them permission er in order to se- er to own it yourself <S25> mhm yes </S25> so please </S23>
<S26> yeah <NAME S26> from finland er IDEA institute er i was actually er once in a location where there was a representative of a media company who was speaking on er speaking about this erm selling the concepts for television programmes and i also was asking the same question as as you were that how is the protection but the answer was that they are not essentially selling the copyright but they are selling the knowledge how to make the programme and they are selling a 500-page book on er where to buy the potatoes for the programme and like so on new (xx) and and all the stuff that this is how you make it you don't have to like innovate the process behind and also there are often like a person going from the selling organisation to help them make the programme so that would be actually the case but that of course that doesn't show the er (xx) problem you were you were asking er i was actually , this is kind of a vague idea but but maybe you can comment on it erm i think this is a bit your question er on exp- expanding the sphere of of I-P-R protection it's a bit connected to your point of in that erm second slide risks versus precaution and er i i have one of these this a bit like opposing view that that or actually that i there's the other side of the coin of about risks versus precaution is that erm the system should also be a one which takes risks to enable like new technologies and new more efficient models to even emerge like about every you know not about every but quite many of the erm copyright developments have come through like breaks in technology or like new technology coming and then they have developing stage and if we like widen the sphere to cover all in the first time then there is no , there are no new models even arriving i don't know if you get the point <S25> mhm-hm mhm </S25> point but it's like just a ca- very simple case like like a share sharing of er music in internet now there is a a model for selling but if they wa- were no napster then there wouldn't be a model now i suppose </S26>
<S25> mhm , er </S25>
<S26> you know like [(xx) yeah] </S26>
<S25> [i think this i mean] this goes with the idea of i mean this modern western notion of of progress where you think you know progress has to be there but it's not a universal idea i mean there are a lot of c- civilisation which in a m- were more more thinking of permanence and and and so that and but i think what this risk i mean let let then those who introduce them take also the responsibility that currently we are totally ir- ir- i mean situation where where where these kind of technologies can be adapted and then when problemses problems arise then okay those companies are no longer there so the governments and the public has to bear the costs i'm i'm proposing kind of er let's say tight technological liability scheme so that for let's say two generations if if after 50 years we see that this was really bad then there's still somebody who can who can er you know re- recover the costs of of repairing the damage and but currently there's nothing like if (xx) if government has cleared then let it be done and then then the government supposingly takes the the responsibility for the potential damage </S25>
<S27> er well i am a little bit first curious to know about the <NAME S25>'s and perhaps several previous talkers' ideas about what they think about the have their proposals presented by lawrence lessig to reform the existing intellectual property rights and regimes but it may might take some time to response to these issues so i'm quite happy if we come back to this issue later because the time schedule might be a bit tight already </S27>
<S23> no we we have an amp- ample time and and and er at at least some of of u- some of of us are lea- leaving after lunch break so please it was an opening issue <NAME S25> <S25> [yeah] </S25> [can] er can you say s- er perhaps say something i first er er mention that i happen happened to . make the sa- same question er last week to to two knowledgeable friends , i guess i i might mention their na- na- names sir robin jacob and er sir hugh laddie <SU> [mhm-hm] </SU> [and] er and they said that larry lessig he's a con artist <SS> mhm </SS> that that was their answer , please </S23>
<S22> i have a quick comment @@ about erm lawrence lessig and his crazy comment concept well er there was a conference in brussels some time ago about the future of TRIPS and well different issues and he made a presentation very nice presentation powerpoint very [interesting] </S22>
<S28> [keynote] is not powerpoint </S28>
<S22> er what <SU> [@@] </SU> [what] <S28> @mhm@ [@(well)@] </S28> [yeah] and at the end actually when he was asked whether he could make it available for people er the paper available he refused to make it available <SS> [@mhm@] </SS> [so maybe] that tells <SU-27> [mhm] </SU-27> [something] about the <SU-27> yes mhm </SU-27> @@ [(xx)] </S22>
<S23> [<NAME S24>] do you want er want to answer the question about the [lessig idea] </S23>
<S24> [well no @@] no not er this comment we at the end we can discuss about (xx) this </S24>
<S29> yes </S29>
<S23> <NAME S28> do you w- do you want to er to comme- <COUGH> comment the lessig sha- shall you (xx) in this context </S23>
<S28> mhm , actually not really </S28>
<S23> @@ okay then we go over </S23>
<S29> i'll comment [on it i-] </S29>
<S23> [<NAME S29> er <NAME S29>] er you'll comment </S23>
<S29> i'll comment on lessig @@ </S29>
<S23> yes very good please do it </S23>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08K by S29, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S8> what did greenspan say , <S29> er </S29> do you mean the the (xx) </S8>
<S29> yeah he saids he said s- he said that this that that sort of a er I-P-R is always has always been a sort of problem for economic development for instance in in the whi- which was the co- conscious policy of the states in the late 19th century early 20th century not to obey I-P-R laws because of e- economic development yeah </S29>
<S28> so how do you fit the companies like er MySQL to this model because it's basically hierarchical model which is using open source so wouldn't people be able to say for example if in MySQL case it's possible to have economic growth because it's er actually an organisation and not this kind of a non-organisation thing </S28>
<S29> yeah o- yeah of course and it's not not clear it's not clear-cut i'm just presenting the sort of extremes in order to to make the in order to make the make the point and make the make the different er types visible but MySQL also why not GNU linux of course this also produces economic growth like what was the again what was (xx) gauche e- evaluation of the value of of the linux o- operating system li- something like two billion US dollars or whatever so of course that's a huge transfer of er , economic er values from whatever the the er er people who have created glu GNU linux to those who have not created so of course there's economic growth involved in in er in something like GNU linux development or in a com- company like a like a MySQL or any other open source software company that company that aims for economic results but works on the base of of values and and of course that's that's possible in other fields also not o- not only in in the case of software </S29>
<P:05>
<S30> if there are no more questions we move to the n- </S30>
<S29> yeah <NAME S31> has one yeah </S29>
<S31> erm about independence what independence from from what </S31>
<S29> everything </S29>
<S31> everything </S31>
<S29> everything </S29>
<S31> why do we need independence from everything </S31>
<S29> er well we don't necessarily </S29>
<S31> because er erm , er free software people some some free software people in india er they are using this er er sanskrit concept of swatandra which means basically independence er they are speaking about swatandra software but there's some other people in the country free and open source people are saying that we shouldn't use this concept because it's a it's erm nationalist er concept and er so how you know , also another example when i was in a seminar where there was a a person from nokia speaking about their project in in er somewhere in in a in a in a developing country where you can use mobile phone in a school to to get some educational material delivered via satellite to your er television set in the classroom i said does this make any sense and erm kind of that you are creating big reliance for the developing country on a developed country with all this technology satellites and like that he said that it's it's actually good to have dependence for kind of international peace these kind of things so , i i mostly argue er agree about the independence thing but then i'm not sure if it's if it's always always like up to the extreme <S29> [mhm] </S29> [so] so it's a good thing </S31>
<S29> of course but yeah i i guess the main point is that er in arguing for something like freedom and sharing of free software or open source software the economic argument doesn't er is not the best one and doesn't er necessarily work at all because the parameters parameters of on on e- er which we base the calculation whether it's cheaper to use linux or microsoft windows or whatever they can always be changed in in whatever direction almost arbitrarily so so that that that doesn't er er in that sense it doesn't capture the essence of the difference the essence of the difference is captured in something else it doesn't have to be independence it could be freedom or something like that some other values which are not possible er the the the it it has to be some value that cannot be captured by organisational knowledge creation let's put it that way and and and and like we have heard today those things include for instance traditional knowledge or something like that </S29>
<S32> does it does it al- also er depend how you how you define the economic growth [i mean i mean there have been a what what] </S32>
<S29> [yeah of cou- of course of co- i was talking] about the narrow [narrow definition] </S29>
<S32> [yes be- because if] you pay more <S29> [yeah] </S29> [of the] software it it somebody might say that it means er economic growth because it you see that people are buying more <S29> [absolutely] </S29> [more] value er but but if you get the same same use value with less money somebody says that this is not economic growth but somebody else says that this this is a growth of of of er life er quality or [mhm] </S32>
<S29> [yeah] yeah this is one of the reasons of why economic growth is not a very good [argument @@] </S29>
<S32> [yeah i think that] it's very very proble- [problematic] </S32>
<S29> [yeah yeah] yeah </S29>
<S30> please </S30>
<S33> er i'm interested to know the two models the organisational model and the disorganisational model and er you have mentioned that er both model were co-existing necessarily and er that you found that er that the knowledge production the knowledge creation were increasingly er depend on the disorganisation model i just i'm interest to know how do you (xx) on the issues of higher education and in universities and universities are the a major place to create knowledge and <S29> [mhm] </S29> [how] do you consider the disorganisation model how this model affect er university er </S33>
<S29> er well universities are good examples of of organisations that are both sort of typically like like if you think about how how researchers work then they they have their sort of the- there's actually been stu- studies done on this in in in tampere university also how tr- er trying to look at how how researchers network and and with whom they actually work so so there's of course some type of work going on with the people who work in the same let's say the same lab or the same same institution but most of the work is actually happening er wa- with people who are all over the world like like in like in software development which which is which is then based again more on personal contacts on on likes and dislikes and taste in food and music and so on and so forth this type this type of very informal er er networks of collaboration and that that can be again the the the problem is that this that the we we only see the tip of the iceberg when we look at the publications and so on and so forth which which can be organisationally modi- monitored but most of the work happens below below the water-line and is never seen in in in that that type of er measurement so that's that's the problem </S29>
<SU-33> okay thank you </SU-33>
<SU-30> please </SU-30>
<S26> yeah thanks er i think there are two things that er rise up like quite significantly the organisational versus disorganisational models or however are they called of which quite many authors claim that the latter is like rising right and then there are so-called economic arguments which are several but i would be like searching after some kind of master economic argument meaning that er do you know er if there is there is er research on like what is the effectiveness of of the two models in in for example software development because there are like we are arguing on these two models like regularly and everybody's claimed that okay this one is coming and it's like rising it seems significant in the future and so on and economic arguments but like how er yesterday there was one slide o- on on like how many working hours were used in <S29> mhm </S29> linux er development and compared to a company but er if it was running a company er how much would hours how many hours would it have required then </S26>
<S29> well that's a </S29>
<S26> do you know any kind that kind of research </S26>
<S29> no i don't know of any empirical that's a very good very good question i don't know of any empirical sort of comparison and and and and it might be a principal problem but it it's not possible to do that comparison again for for these reasons that how how do we compare it what's the measure it's it's incommensurable @the the@ those di- different processes are incommensurable we can't we can't measure but just sort of er this type of of course this kind of type of of anecdotal evidence exists if you think about operating system development like like er we have li- we er have windows we have linux operating systems for the desktop so we have windows we have linux then we have the mac mac O-S so it it's probably when you talk o- talk with people that work in in computer science and so on the that sort of general opinion that is that there will never again be a new operating system for for the desktop because it's it's so huge it's too much to do so well there there might be of course fo- folks of linux and folks of open source and free software different types of free software open source er desktop environments but if you think about what what happened to apple and what what happened to mac when they tried to create a new new the er new operating system in the middle of the nine nine er middle of the 90s they couldn't because it was ju- just a too big thing to for to do for a company they don't have the money they don't have the time to do that no company has the money or the time to do that e- ever again it's too big a thing it has to be done in a in a colla- collaborative way </S29>
<P:06>
<SU-30> mhm-hm </SU-30>
<S32> i i ha- want to ask one er could you see excuse me i don't remember your name you were talking about the traditial traditional knowledge </S32>
<S22> yes </S22>
<S30> [<NAME S22>] </S30>
<S32> [do you] think that you could you should use this this app- apparatus this distinction between organisational and disorganisational knowledge in this traditional knowledge case i i m- i mean that should we treat the traditional knowledge also not as one but maybe there is organisational knowledge in the in the traditional knowledge area <S22> [mhm] </S22> [and] disorganised kne- kno- knowledge and maybe the the protection of of er rights should be different in different places if you talk (xx) </S32>
<S22> erm er that's definitely a very interesting distinction erm now </S22>
<S29> w- m- yeah one one more important factor here is is of course when it comes to traditional er knowledge is time <S22> yeah </S22> that these these things are measured in in er quartals or years or something like that and and traditional knowledge is measured in several generations and so on <S22> [well] </S22> [so] that's that brings a completely sort of different level of of o- again a different type of knowledge that's might be a third or a fourth or whatever type </S29>
<S22> actually i think well TK could fit in because what okay when we say it's traditional we don't mean it's necessarily old <S29> mhm </S29> the traditional <S29> [yeah well yeah sure] </S29> [aspect is] because of the link to community that is traditional <S29> yeah yeah </S29> so it could fit in the distinction somehow now yeah we'll have to see how you could use this distinction er in order to to to be you know useful for traditional knowledge protection that i don't know but yeah </S22>
<SU> next speaker </SU>
<S30> okay thank [you] </S30>
<S29> [okay] thank you </S29>
<S30> the next speaker is er <NAME S33> he'll be speaking on er global and contrasting the global and local in chinese higher education </S30>
<PREPARING POWERPOINT, ONE MINUTE DELETED>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08L by S33>

<S27> er if we look at the phase with which the chinese university system is probably expanding in these days <S33> yeah </S33> and the huge requirements to to er er er offer er to make er the newest results of science available for the students in the chinese universities i think there is no way to to purchase the new scientific literature to order the journals and so on i think there must be a huge need to er have a more open access to the results of scientific research using <S33> [mhm] </S33> [effective] wi- and er new new information and communication technologies have i guessed right </S27>
<S33> yeah yeah i'm actually er based on my personal experiences i think in er er compared to the universities such as in finland i'm studying here i i feel a bit comfortable with the er the scientific resources for my research you know especially for for us we are doing some some some related some research related to social science you know it's mainly based on literature so the the open access or free access to scientific resources are very important and er comparably in most er university in china especially the openness to the western literature journals is er is limited so i think in this in this sense is a it's still a challenge for chinese universities to create the knowledge or or to er fill the gap between the er the west countries and er and china but erm but last year when i visited some universities for example some top university in china beijing university i i was impressed that for example i visited a faculty of education in beijing u- beijing university last summer and where i er interviewed some people and i found that they have a very good resources for their res- research even s- at least not bad than the than that in our library they have a many journals in the higher education field and er i think they have the they have enjoyed equal resources like here but er probably they are just some individual cases because they are top university and the the government gives (xx) support for the for some kind of university because in china the there is a there is reform the er it's called <FOREIGN> (xx) </FOREIGN> project meaning that the government have selected 100 100 university that key universities er to which they the government were er were assist their financial resources in the hope that they could become the er , not not some some top university in the world but at least they can compete with er some some top university in the world in the future so i think this is the bright side i have seen </S33>
<S30> mhm </S30>
<P:06>
<S27> well one could perhaps add the information that that the finnish company nokia is nowadays very fast expanding its R&D activities in china and it is also very fast expanding and upgrading its collaboration with the beijing university and we in tampere we have some two or three thousand mostly R&D related jobs of nokia here in tampere and we are a bit worried what will happen with them in future @@ </S27>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S25> yeah i'd like to know how how the universities are dealing with the with this copyright enforcement especially from US that at some point i was reading news that that the publishers scientific publishers were accusing chinese universities of piracy and </S25>
<S33> well i to be frank i'm not expert in this area <S25> [mhm] </S25> [so] i'm not familiar with the with this topic but er in general i think that er there there still are a lot of things need to improve in this respect in china of course also including the these issues in universities </S33>
<S30> is there a change in the language erm [position] </S30>
<S33> [mhm] sorry </S33>
<S30> language er the language used in education </S30>
<S33> uh-huh er , i think if you read some recent policies because i have been studying abroad for a few years and er i'm not very familiar with what happened in the real process in the classroom but er i read some policy and it seems that the government is encouraging at least to use both chinese and er english language in in some universities and erm like that and er i feel that most when i when i er visited china and i i feel that er most of our students university students they are er mo- becoming more and more interested to er to er take the courses er which er the the language instruction is e- is english </S33>
<P:05>
<S30> okay <S33> yeah </S33> thank you </S30>
<S33> thank you </S33>
<ONE HOUR LUNCH BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08M by S11, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<APPLAUSE>
<S34> any comment on my part </S34>
<S18> well it's [up to you wha-] </S18>
<S34> [er there is] i think er as as i promised to be an active host er i think it's important to note that er there is a certain wall of glass between the ICT and mobile er whereas i think the er in terms of development the the most striking thing that has happened and the most empowering thing that has happened is that people in the poor regions of the world have received mobile and that had helped them to by-pass the the text there even speech in favour of the oral speech which is the culture they belong to and in terms of fastening the development i think the finnish corporation nokia has been the most er the the greatest force er from maybe one of the greatest forces in the world that has been empowering people and what is i i hold in my hand the tourist booklet a very small tourist booklet of nokia and i read the first lines that er er <READING ALOUD>  nokia is the world leader in mobile communication by adding mobility to the internet we are creating new opportunities for business and enriching the quality of life for individuals u- using our products </READING ALOUD> and er my comment to this paper would be that er it is it is it is often er it is it is er i would think er habit- habitual for er academic presentations on ICT use of ICT in development to overlook the strategies of private sector players and to when they were thinking of ICT to overlook what has been done by mobile technologies and er i think it would be when speaking about the small and the rural communities and the traditional cultures how they benefit from ICT it is important to to see how the mobile internet also the the im- im- er you see it's it's it's been it's going to be there in two three years so and it's going to be much cheaper than so a- actually it's it's a <S11> [mhm] </S11> [little] cryptic that you <S11> mhm </S11> when you say about computer skills it's only one of the ways of looking at the issue <S11> mhm </S11> you know probably it's all going to be voice-operated we never know thank you </S34>
<S11> mhm-hm can i comment [on that] </S11>
<S18> [yeah] </S18>
<S34> [yeah] sure </S34>
<S11> yeah so i understand your point and in fact i i do count er mobile telephones as one of the those really beneficial approaches to development in the sense that i've i've for instance i've seen some admin- administrations which used to have one one telephone li- line per per prefect of one million people and now they have the ability to communicate at least something to their let's say headquarters but the problem still exists that let us say in tanzania where there are well nobody knows maybe 35 million people there are i think at the moment something like less than one million er mobile lines and the cost of the use is is really expensive at the moment and i as long as the sole provider of these services is are the multinational companies which can kind of monopolise the the provision of these services i for instance i don't see much space for for bringing about real possibilities for communicating anything else than kind of short messages to each other <S34> [yeah yeah it is that] </S34> [in in oral terms or] whatever </S11>
<S34> but on the other hand in india the mobile er the mobile connectivity is the cheapest in the world <S11> mhm </S11> it costs less than er whatever euro cent er to make a call and er maybe it's because it's it's actually an interesting point for investigation is it because india has enough resources and strong domestic players <S11> mhm </S11> who can invest a lot of money without fearing for their investment and create this kind of a cheap product that can be 'cause in india i think it's er er mobile phones have already surpassing the number of landlines <S11>  yeah </S11> and it's (record of the world) [thank you] </S34>
<S11> [yeah] mhm can i <S34> [sure sure] </S34> [have a brief comment] on that <S18> yeah </S18> so that's also what's happening in tanzania with the number of of the ordinary lines have been surpassed by the by the use of mobile phones and but the other problem really is that there's not there used to be i think one or two local operators but they were phased out they they didn't have a chance to compete in those small markets </S11>
<S18> okay thanks then there was <NAME S27>'s comment and er here couple of others and there so <NAME S27> please </S18>
<S27> er talking still about about mobiles would you be in favour or against the de-regulation of telecommunications communi- er business in sub-saharan africa </S27>
<S11> i i think i would be for the regulation because that's that's what i've seen happening <S27> [for] </S27> [around] there </S11>
<S27> for regulation [or for the] </S27>
<S11> [for regulation] </S11>
<S27> de-regulation </S27>
<S11> for for government reg- relegu- @regulation@ sorry </S11>
<S27> okay thank [you] </S27>
<S11> [yeah] </S11>
<S18> and then er [mhm] </S18>
<S7> [er] i wasn't actually preparing to ask anything but i can </S7>
<S18> oh no well [it was <NAME S31> @@] </S18>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S7> [but er now that i have] </S7>
<S18> i'm sorry @@ </S18>
<S7> yes erm i was thinking while you were talking about erm er you were critical about the issue of ICT here <S11> mhm-hm </S11> but i would rather be critical about the issue of development which is kind of a a worldwide strategy here to er make world more compatible in terms of economy in terms of er er er opening up markets and er basically it's in the interest of the western world er the industrial world to sort of create these things and er it it sort of relies upon a a specific kind of idea about development <S11> mhm </S11> and i think that deserves a critical look <S11> mhm-hm </S11> as well and now that i have this opportunity we were just delivered in the last session this news release from vodafone er dated on ninth march so a few days ago and in here it says <READING ALOUD> 90 per cent of people surveyed in tanzania said they could access a mobile phone while only 25 er 28 per cent could access a landline income gender age education and even absence of electricity do not create barriers to mobile access in rural communities and mobiles are one of the most widely owned consumer assets </READING ALOUD> <S11> mhm-hm </S11> in tanzania </S7>
<S11> yeah i would like to comment to the last point that okay people have access but do they have any special use for these it's always a question what what kind of uses they have for actually in rural areas for mobile phones it's it's not something to be taken for granted that <S34> it's [yeah] </S34> [you] have access you have a need </S11>
<S34> you make business through mobile phones you <S11> [yeah yeah yeah] </S11> [call your neighbour] you know what you can <S11> [yeah yeah] </S11> [(xx)] (xx) </S34>
<S32> can i ask <S34> sure </S34> so do do you see there some some fundamental difference between these undevelopment countries and development countries because i i i could ask the same question of of the use of the mold- mobile phone of my own children <S11> mhm-hm </S11> is is there they're really used and what is the <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [benefits] and do they have the understanding and skills to use the real benefits of the of the mobile phone so so what is the fund- what is the fundamental <S11> mhm </S11> difference here and why it is ethical question </S32>
<S11> er we could say that er that the difference exists in the fact that er we can in in materially affluent societies we can make mistakes all the time we can er we can do things which are not beneficial i'm i'm not saying that that people have to be prudent and do only those things which which kind of lead into let's say economic productivity or or whatever but it's still a matter of how to how to allocate funds for different purposes and we can afford to allocate them whatever i i agree that there's there's also problem with all these issues in let us say the the ICT policy of of such countries as as for instance finland i'm not always very convinced that it's very ve- very er considerate one so </S11>
<S18> okay and then <NAME S31> had a comment or a question make it short please 'cause there's couple of others </S18>
<S13> okay i'll be very brief er i mean <NAME S31> go ahead </S13>
<S31> yeah <S18> yeah </S18> erm i think this connected with to your question also er let's keep talking on mo- about mobile phones er erm i think every technology all all technologies have the those er bad side effects <S11> mhm-hm </S11> and er you you spoke about er how to react to to those but erm how about kind of all the technologies change the culture cha- change the social relations social erm practices and so on when they are in new in the in the society erm what do you think as you were proposing a some kind of erm evaluation model or something like that <S11>  mhm-hm </S11> how should we look at technologies erm when we we are aware that this is going to change something and er are we just going to accept this that okay this er kind of <S11> mhm </S11> do the calculation these are the good sides the bad sides and then we just accept the bad sides er or is there a way to somehow address these bad sides and make them go away or you know </S31>
<S11> to some degree for instance if you build a road and when you get a few cars there will be some pollution but it's a matter of whether it really means anything so some side effects some bad effects are such that we have to take into account them and some are such that er we can do something to modify them and still we have some which we can do nothing at all so that's that's what i mean that we have to look at all the sides of these issues </S11>
<S31> er actually i was maybe a bit kind of worried that er that usually in in these kind of projects er people just accept the bad sides but don't do anything [about them] </S31>
<S11> [yeah] yeah yeah and that's a ethical problem that's that's something i take for granted and that's why er what i talked about in terms of costs of these projects </S11>
<S13> i in fact go largely with <NAME S11>'s <COUGH> position <COUGH> because you see the impact of mobiles in terms of bringing benefit to the ordinary citizens largely depends on three factors remind me the one is the affordability question two is the state role policies and three the size of consumers therefore you have more mobiles the the usual level is more in the north than in south and even within south there is a diversity between india and other countries in in africa even neighbouring countries to india like bangladesh so it has largely in terms of affordability it has largely really reached the middle-class and if you like the digital generation the youth the university students and so on now the issue of policy is very important as well where the policy is not actually encouraging competition like what it is in india like south pacific the policy is highly restrictive <S11>  mhm </S11> it it supports monopolisation so you only have one er provider and it it it charges really high rates for telephone calls it's er two two US dollars sorry one US dollar per minute in <S11> [mhm] </S11> [in] fiji where i come from </S13>
<S7> on the [solomons] </S7>
<S13> [the] on solomons as well a third is the size of consumers you see india is feasible because of consumer because of <S34> huge market </S34> millions of people but it's not even for the operator it's not profitable operating in a country like fiji which is under 100,000 people <S11> mhm </S11> so that's i think that's important [to take take into account] </S13>
<S34> [so that means that if if the] let me let me g- just a one er clarification so if the market would be somehow expanded if there would be not a single market within tanzania and also for wireless it's you know it's a question of er market is you know a technical question er if the market was expanded if there was some kind of de-regulation of a in terms of letting different players reach all the sub-saharan african market for example you mean that would create incentive for big the companies [to come in] </S34>
<S13> [well you are] you you are fulfilling two factors but you still need to talk about the affordability issue then which is the last factor it is the real poor the farmers the rural farmers the fishermen whether they can afford even when the price is too low <S34> i see </S34> to access mobiles is i think the bottom line </S13>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S18> and then how about <NAME S8> <NAME S8> did did you have [a question] </S18>
<S8> [thanks i] er </S8>
<S18> you <S8> [keep the er] </S8> [skip that] later er i think that being a bad cop i have to say that we're gonna we're gonna stop this whole er session , in this room and st- er find other place so we have a bigger place er available i'm not sure what is the lecture room but [do you know it <NAME S31>] </S18>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S31> no @@ </S31>
<S18> it's [something like 60] </S18>
<S31> [i can find out] </S31>
<S18> six er but it's it's a better place to to er conclude this session and also this se- conference so please get your bags and er hit the street , not the street but the room </S18>
<CHANGE OF VENUE, TRACK CHANGE>
<S30> er earlier (xx) research and development on the telephone continue to bring down the price to an extent where it can be (xx) it can be afforded by say 80 per cent of the people in society in in the west <S18>  mhm-hm </S18> , then afterwards the research and development was not to reduce the cost but to add other features and additional services involved <S18> yeah  </S18> but the telephones (xx) since we were not er doing the responding to certain development but to bring down the cost further so it meant that only 10 per cent of the people could really afford a phone so i don't know (xx) the situation in terms of mobile phones in developing [countries] </S30>
<S34> [i think] i think e- e- everything is changing can i answer <S18>  mhm-hm </S18> this i think it's changing because the chinese are very actively expanding to the mobile phone production and as as usually they are undercutting the price so i can tell you from russian experience that on russian market there is now er the- they they do it everywhere in cars and also it's same as in er in mobile phones they are pricing the phones below 100 dollars and the usu- i think within a year wou- they they would have the multimedia capacity also and internet browsing so i think the chi- s- the the chinese are going to be the main driving force they were driving the the prices down so it will be quite feasible to have a mobile internet er terminal even u- under 100 dollars that could be also er if if the if the country's really poor that 100 dollars could become also a a set of of payments distributed for 24 months or something like this </S34>
<SU> i think </SU>
<S18> yeah okay er well we leave it leave it at as it is thank you <NAME S11> and we go forward with the <NAME S32>'s presentation shopping guide to future <S32> yeah </S32> so please </S18>
<S32> please please come here closer it's so big room that i i i i don't want to shout all the time </S32>
<S31> you can use the microphone i i think it's a [good idea to use it yeah] </S31>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S32> <INAUDIBLY THROUGH THE MICROPHONE> (xx) </S32>
<SU> yes that's better </SU>
<S32> so can you hear me <SS> yes </SS> nice </S32>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08N by S32, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<APPLAUSE>
<S18> any questions comments please </S18>
<S31> well how do you do how do you see er kind of the erm lack o- lack of flow of information regarding er how how certain food for instance what's (been produced) er between the n- thr- the mhm er customer in in the north and the producer in the south </S31>
<S32> yeah that that is a that is a fundamental quistion question er we don't have that information flow and information access now if if i if i were interested of that kind of questions er i don't e- even know nowadays in EU in which country this production product was made so of for what should i put this er w- w- w- er ho- how could i er define the responsible er decisions if if i don't have that information or h- w- was this answer to your question or </S32>
<S31> maybe i was looking for a like a solution what would you do </S31>
<S32> what what would be the solution <S31> yes </S31> i i believe that in future the the the amount of information will be huge er the more government are are pushing er companies to er document the production er , conditions of of for example food in in third world countries or oats or whatever the more there is information available but of course consumer cannot er use all that amount of information but consumer needs to have some kind of thir- thir- er how could i say it trusted third parties that the consumer trusts let's say NGOs or or er economic er go- , i don't know </S32>
<S34> yes </S34>
<S35> er <SIGH> i have a feeling that when you were talking about these labels labels <S32> yeah </S32> that er this group of people these consumers they don't trust labels they d- labels they don't they can't count on them or something i [<SIGH>] </S35>
<S32> [mo- most] of the people <S35> [yeah] </S35> [in fact] in finland when when you go from when you move from the gra- gre- th- er area of helsinki away you find out that that pe- the people are very <SIC> suspeciable </SIC> <S35> [yeah] </S35> [of] these labels and they are even marked as a negative product so people don't take them when there is this label </S32>
<S35> yes but i have to disagree a little bit i think it depends on the label because on the other hand er a lot of people are very wery well aware that there are many sorts of labels <S32> yeah </S32> you're talking about sem- something like erm well ethical consumption in erm eggs for instance you have these these er labels that say that it's a they are happy eggs <S32> [yeah] </S32> [or] they are free eggs <S32> [yeah] </S32> [or] they are free chickens' <S32> [yeah] </S32> [eggs] or something like this [but if] </S35>
<S32> [the most] yeah most <S35> [yeah] </S35> [people] don't understand what these labels [means yeah] </S32>
<S35> [sure but then] then of course there are labels that people do trust say something like fair trade which is er i think there is er some advantage to having these labels that can be guaranteed to have a fair process behind them so that you don't have go through every single stage <S32> [yeah i know] </S32> [to find out] information because most of the people wouldn't be ready to go to internet and find out all about all these stages where it came from and and make the judgement [themselves] <S32> [yeah] yeah yeah </S32> so if you have a ce- certain labels that er can be guaranteed to already contain all this ethical aspect you know <S32> yeah [yeah but] </S32> [and it's] easier for the [consumers yeah] </S35>
<S32> [yeah i i agree and] i but er that that is not that was not my point my point is that these people are already already now doing er the evaluation that what product is good or not and most people think that when they buy local food it it means that they are buying organic food <S35> [but] </S35> [do] you follow me </S32>
<S35> sure but then [there are also mhm] </S35>
<S32> [er so so what] what for what do they need the label any more because they are already consuming the organic food that that is the key so i'm i'm saying here that sh- are do we really want to give the freedom to these people to define the concept of sustainability themselves or are we still keeping that there are really sustainable products or and then there are these fake er sustainable products that people just think are sustainable so i'm i'm just saying that i'm asking that who who is to define the sustainability here </S32>
<S34> i think er can i comment <S32> [yeah] </S32> [about] this i think that the the person to define is the person who cosu- consumes and er there i don't think there is much you can do about it </S34>
<S32> yeah because they are doing it al- already </S32>
<S34> so er that's probably for this </S34>
<S18> of course there is a lot of to do with it i mean think about education <S32> mhm </S32> like i mean when you told that er information doesn't count <S32> mhm </S32> but but we do have a schooling system in our countries and and er if we @@ are that @pessimistic@ then we can pretty much end the end the schooling like ivan illich was pointing out 30 years ago </S18>
<S32> i'm not pessimistic but i'm i'm asking that because the old old er information knowledge old knowledge er building er projects they they haven't accessed so so much er they have affe- affected they they have had good effects so i'm asking that could we could we , get something useful off how people already do their decisions and and for example uh when when these people are selecting products big of of the big producers i think that they are more likely to be envi- envi- envi- environmentally er healthy , we we can we can laugh at this is this is er this cannot be true but in the end what when when we see that er whi- which companies really do have a nowadays a policy of of er their their er production conditions both for w- furniture companies they are the big companies because of the pressure that most people think the big companies should concern these things so which one effects which one is the er question </S32>
<S18> another question </S18>
<S11> well er i'd like to comment on on that comment you just presented <S32> mhm </S32> because i i first of all myself i i do believe in this kind of pressure coming from the consumers er let us say some kind of boycotting campaigns and so on but the big problem with them at the moment is er it is a kind of conceptual problem in the sense that we still have no clear idea what er sustainability means which is a well that's even more technical question and thus a bit easier one than let us say what does fair trade mean <S32> mhm-hm </S32> so er i think we have a lot of potential in in in directing the consumer pressure er on on the producers but first of all we would have to know what would this concept actually mean i mean for instance the the criteria that the fair trade organisations use they are quite they are quite vague and i i wouldn't use them as a basis as such </S11>
<S32> yeah yeah i agree totally <S11> mhm </S11> and and because we to to say this aloud that the the definition is open i- i- is to to look the whole question in a new way because i am not here to answer the question because i am i'm i'm trying to say that the consumers themselves should and they are already doing it and and and we we should give them freedom and tools to do it more effectively </S32>
<S34> <WHISPERING> (xx) </WHISPERING> </S34>
<SU> we have to carry on </SU>
<S34> okay <S32> [okay] </S32> [so] it's [(xx)] </S34>
<S18> [yeah we have to] carry on now and er and er thank you <NAME S32> <S32> yeah </S32> and er , welcome er <NAME S8> to the stage or would you prefer to stay there or what </S18>
<S8> i would prefer to use [this this system] </S8>
<S18> [alright so] okay , talk talking about er branding here's two apple macintosh computers you know and er i know that <NAME S8> is a heavy user of mac [computers] </S18>
<SU> [are you] </SU>
<S34> [okay] [meanwhile well mhm] </S34>
<S8> [you did not know] </S8>
<S34> yeah </S34>
<S18> @@ i know </S18>
<S34> well there is this er change i would just like to add to this point [that er] <S18> [oh yeah] yeah </S18> it is er i think it is er it is probably not so important to er to have this precise understanding of what is sustainability it is important what consumers think is good for them and what producers will be able to pitch in their PR campaigns as er meeting these expectations and i think this is a again as as with last er presenta- i think er the private sector activity is was overlooked in the presentation in the sense that er i mean we can talk about many things but there is little we can do about it except that people over time will get educated that if you take too much white sugar then you may have diabetes or whatever you know and in every category in every food category generation by generation the this wisdom it er instils itself and so i think private companies will be er using this to their advantages and that the labels that meet the expectations will be raising thank you </S34>
<S18> okay and now er <NAME S8> aspects of the political library </S18>
<PREPARING POWERPOINT, ONE MINUTE DELETED>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08O by S8, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S18> can we go to the comments and questions </S18>
<S8> yes thank you i'm i'm finished doing this <S18> [okay] </S18> [i] would suggest that <S18> [thank you] </S18> [(xx)] but if it isn't reasonable now i shall try to give answers </S8>
<S18> alright thanks <S8> yes yes </S8> yeah </S18>
<APPLAUSE>
<S18> questions comments please <P:05> yeah , go ahead </S18>
<S36> er well er it's not a question i mean i just i'm completely mind boggled by this presentation because i thought this should have come right at the beginning i mean right after you know this gentleman from australia you were talking about freedom and so on does that mean you know i have never thought of about this connection yeah then when i now remember you know the battles where like there are none working groups and they attempted to separate the practical from the meta-political and i can understand why i mean you know and i thought this gentleman from from india was er looking very obscure and so on you know about that information and so on and @i was like (anyway)@ and and and you know i don't know i i don't have anything to say but i'm just very excited that i i would have almost missed this presentation going through could be so obscure and and (xx) and actually it is first-class (critique) </S36>
<S18> yeah i agree and er and there's yeah er i think there's a very nice link between <NAME S8>'s presentation to to that what er <NAME NS16> said in his keynote in the very beginning of this conference and <NAME NS16> is here so if he's got something to say , you can do that but here's another comment before that </S18>
<S37> no not er for me i have a question is that also [allowed then yeah] </S37>
<S18> [sure yeah go ahead] </S18>
<S37> er i was er i i of course i'm er was very much triggered by the idea that er that libraries should be at least use open source software erm but also er because they are also a kind of a model of open source of open of open source software it's that that you you borrow (xx) the book you @memorise it@ and if you don't have to pay anything for it so it's ki- kind of er an open source model er if i look at the er if i look at open source software i see that there is quite er a special situation for the for the libraries there is on the on the one hand you see that there is open source software available that is mostly produced by organisations but also the world largest er organisations like the UN and UNESCO they are pushing forward open source software for libraries how does it relate especially in this last group of organisations that produce the software to your ideas </S37>
<S25> <FOREIGN> kuulit sä </FOREIGN> </S25>
<SU> <FOREIGN> mitä </FOREIGN> </SU>
<S37> shall i repeat my @question@ @@ </S37>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> er </S8>
<S25> [(xx)] </S25>
<S8> [where is (xx)] to the erm </S8>
<S37> don't you know macintoshes are very poor multitasking machines </S37>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> erm , i'm sorry , when you s- took up this issue i started to think that i spoke in an extremely abstract and general fashion about it i just raised the question and i i hear that you start to ask something more specific about it and then i think er what do i have to say about that well there's much to say about it but erm </S8>
<S37> le- let me <S8> [yes please] </S8> [may- maybe little] just add a bit yeah <S8> yeah </S8> er this morning when we we also saw another good example of er er l- a large er we see that during that icon story we see that er the the the US is in the beginning very friendly and in the end they turn out to be a quite a nasty er a nasty person erm we see that quite a lot of er er library software these days is produced by similar type of organisations and that is basically what i'm asking is it are you considered are you considering that as an an alternative or do you believe in a a much more open er maybe er anarchist model in producing this type of open source software </S37>
<S8> as far as i'm concerned i see i don't see a problem with that because i think open source software is developing extremely well and and er although i happen now to use macintosh i use open source software every day and er and er many kinds and for for libraries there is also there's this special er software development for library systems for the open source library systems erm , and there is erm er , what what there is what there is not is a a well thought-out strategy or discussion about this between librarians on the one hand and the free software movement on the other hand er because it's a difficult thing to start i think in a library er the librarians must be very sure about what they are distributing and er doing if they take take on this and of course also if they move to open source er base their own systems on partly they are already based on on of course open source free s- free software , now i'm really feel a little bit ashamed because i i don't take in your er @question@ <S37> [@@] </S37> [actually] i don't listen as attentively as i should </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S37> er @@ @yeah bec- because i was still waiting for the answer but@ </S37>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S18> well whi- what should we do @@ should you repeat that @or@ </S18>
<S37> no i [think] </S37>
<S18> [or] </S18>
<S8> come on [once more please] </S8>
<S37> [i i think] [that if you let me let me] </S37>
<S25> [share it after the forum] </S25>
<S37> put it let me put it this [way if you buy me] </S37>
<SU-11> [or you can answer it] </SU-11>
<S37> a beer after we are @finished@ <S8> @okay@ </S8> @i will repeat my question@ </S37>
<S8> @okay okay@ </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S18> is there [any any other comments at this point] yeah <NAME NS16> yeah </S18>
<S37> [agreed @@ (xx)] </S37>
<NS16> i just wonder if there's anybody in the audience who really could give an answer to the question from a librarian </NS16>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S18> @is there@ @@ oh yeah [okay] </S18>
<S9> [can] you repeat your question i'm a librarian maybe i can answer it </S9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S37> now my my question is that er i don't i don't need the the the answer immediately but my point is basically what i tried to make is (xx) at the moment if we look at library systems and er er i'm asking that question because at my university we are just selecting one and it should be an open source one because we are an open source university er but you see that there is basically there are two types of models there is a pure open source software model er that is er promoted by for example greenstone is a i think it's a one of the examples that is er there for for building internet libraries on the other hand there is also this type of kind of free software that is pushed by UNESCO <S9> yeah </S9> and so it's basically what i'm asking at the bottom line of my question is , is that also do you consider that to be a good alternative or is it a kind of quite a dangerous way to er to move because then you it's not a pure it's free software but it's not really open source to er pa- to to some extent it's nice software but on the other hand it's american and would you alway- you should always be very sceptical about that so it's , that is the question is it is that an alternative that you would recommend if you recommend open source software to a [(another party)] </S37>
<S9> [this UNESCO] model <S37> [yeah] </S37> [or] , i think they have main- been mostly used in developing countries <S37> yeah </S37> those programs <S37> yeah </S37> and i i have no er no experience of them so i have hopefully they function well that's the most [important thing] </S9>
<S37> [oh they do quite] well yeah </S37>
<S9> yes so i don't think there's th- this that's one point sustainable development that they function as we talked today today earlier <S37> yeah </S37> but as to the library systems they are very rarely based on any software er free software er usually linux (software) based i only know one it is er named koha <S8> [yeah] </S8> [it comes] from new zealand i think </S9>
<SU> yes </SU>
<S37> er there are a couple of them aren't there they offer about <S9> [oh yeah] </S9> [six i] think six <S9> [okay] </S9> [library] systems open source </S37>
<S18> well i think that we can i mean you can find <S9> [yeah] </S9> [the] answers from the discussion groups in the web and so forth <S37> yeah </S37> and and even within us after this session but now there's one other question from <NAME S31> or </S18>
<S31> no no [no] </S31>
<S18> [comment] no </S18>
<S31> no i just was pointing out that <S18> [oh] </S18> [there's] w- this one </S31>
<S18> okay yeah it's here okay well er anyways we have one presentation to go and it's er <NAME S6>'s is <NAME S6> here yeah hi so er please welcome er his er topic is the benefits of IT in uzbekistan's communities , and you have the same time as as we have like 20 minutes but remember the discussion time so it's it's about 10 to 12 minutes for for your speak <P:10> and there there's been i don't know if you have heard that there's been a suggestion er or a wish that after this last presentation of the conference there'd be a , something like concluding er , words for some of the committee members maybe <NAME S25> will lead that concluding session and here's er <NAME S29> and also <NAME S27> who are in charge of this conference so we can er in that concluding er session we can er discuss a little bit of how how we can proceed , er from this conference to something maybe more active ways of of , of er , making the making another world </S18>
<PREPARING POWERPOINT, P:32>
<S18> i think that er for the future conferences we should we should keep in mind <NAME>'s way to to use technology <S25> definitely </S25> if you remember <SS> @@ </SS> those transparencies you know <S9> yeah </S9> with the @@ with the intentional spelling mistakes and all </S18>
<PREPARING POWERPOINT, PEOPLE TALKING AMONGST THEMSELVES, P:43>
<S29> how many ICT technologists does it take to make one presentation </S29>
<S18> @@ </S18>
<PREPARING POWERPOINT, 2 MINUTES DELETED>

<PRESENTATION CPRE08P by S6>

<S38> tha- thank you for your presentation i er it seems like i mean in uzbekistan there are many benefits of IT but er i have just one simple question concerning IT management in uzbekistan is it er managed by the government or there are are there any international players which contribute to IT environment in uzbekistan </S38>
<S6> er , i thank you very much for your question er the thing is er they have not so very well developed er IT infrastructure in uzbekistan and this is why our program er operates in er operates in especially those distant regions so er you you saw this presentation and er i i think you'll you'll see that er situation like this er exists in whole uzbekistan this is just our program and er unfortunately at present time we have not er like sort of developed acting infrastructure even in our government or at the university or different organisations </S6>
<S18> yeah </S18>
<S7> yes er now that we've been the last two days we've been discussing all these open source software issues and things like that how would you describe the situation of er open source software and this kind of development in uzbekistan are these softwares used or is it becoming popular or are there political constraints er what's the role of microsoft in uzbekistan then </S7>
<S6> er thank you very much for the question erm in fact er i've just known about open software coming here because before i i didn't know anything about that and this is very new er direction in uzbekistan because er mostly in uzbekistan er we use only microsoft product and er i i think that (xx) is not er licensed because er they are very expensive and er people can't can't just buy it because they are the price is very high i hope that after some some time open sources will be also er used in uzbekistan as in in other countries </S6>
<S27> er the key- uh previous speaker talked about the key importance of of public libraries in modern information society and and in the finnish er first we have been able to er read that in uzbekistan there has been made a decision to to shut close down al- almost all the public li- libraries except the one in in the capital city can you comment something on this </S27>
<S6> er <COUGH> we have a public library in uzbekistan but er they are not connected er they they connected to the internet but er i think that er the main part of this library connected to the internet by using java connection because er IT infrastructure not is so well developed but our government er has decreed er a national pri- pro- programme er which required to er to a- accomplish this task er at in at in in the nearest future </S6>
<P:05>
<S30> er er what ac- what what actually is mahalla i didn't understand </S30>
<S6> mahalla is a social er institute in in uzbekistan and er c- community we call mahalla so m- mahalla is co- community </S6>
<P:07>
<S34> but er then i i will also ask a question how many are there experiences like this in uzbekistan i mean if we would have er all the success cases of ICT in uzbekistan er as presentations how many people would be here in this room </S34>
<S6> er e- excuse me </S6>
<S34> <REPEATS THE QUESTION IN RUSSIAN> <FOREIGN> (xx) </FOREIGN> </S34>
<S6> er in uzbekistan they have er several programmes er which work on developing of IT like UNDB programme UNESCO programme and our organisation IRIS i think er it might be about maybe not more than 100 </S6>
<S34> but er are they how how how big is the role of these programmes in transferring uzbekistan and the what is the role of private people private sector understand </S34>
<S6> er <COUGH> the the role the role of er these private private people and er er com- companies as well is big but er they are not too too many and er , er this er programme works in uzbekistan but er if you if you see it as a (xx) er at present time er the users of IT in uzbekistan about er it's about not more than five per cent </S6>
<S34> okay thank you any more </S34>
<S18> any more questions or , should we at this point thank you for presentations and er people behind them and to give a big hand for them <APPLAUSE> and now i would like to give this floor to <NAME S25> because of this concluding part of this conference er 'cause there there's been this er suggestion for general discussion </S18>
<S25> so if people can still hang on for some time the hall is with us until five but i think we we will not be here er so long but i guess the the we have been speaking about collaboration so it might be interesting to to get some comments how people see if they have been able to create some some contacts which they think would be useful want to invite others to to work on some specific er topics or items and also any feedback on on the seminar days we we've had now er how we could improve these kind of er gatherings what could we do for the future so i i would say it's sort of open open floor for comments and and suggestions <P:07> yeah </S25>
<S9> i just want to comment on this library question which came out now at the end er i'm i'm glad it came out from other's than librarian's mouth because then it's shows that it's important also to others at least they start to think about it er re- related to the world summit on information society where i've been actively involved er through finnish library association and IFLA as part of IFLA team in (xx) er it has been emphasised the importance of er existing structures when implementing the the world summit er decisions and one of the the key factors is i think library where it exists now it should be used for these purposes to to spree- to spread the information about free software and other things which are talked about here and and generally er it could be a good base for the whole information society because it's already has in many countries the the technology but of course it has all that content in books and in in in writing and in other forms so as our guest from tanzania said it should have been er it should have been talked much earlier and connected to all these topics and see how it's (xx) but it's never too late i'm very glad it came up here and we can think about it now </S9>
<S34> i can actually add something to this library question in in russia one of the most important resources er to er rise with the with the internet was the library the online library it's it's actually private er undertaking by a programmer er who has collected the texts of er russian language books and er he has been recently attacked by set er series of lawsuits from the er electronic publishers who want to charge for yes yes but er actually even even this way er what we have tried to scheme in er in russia for this was to make a special s- was to proclaim that er you know in library you still can have a copy even if it's a copyrighted work under the (xx) doctrine er th- it can be spelled out in different ways and what we tried to do actually and thi- this might be an interesting idea also for other countries probably was to proclaim the territory of universities and er other places as the territory of a library <S9> [mhm-hm] </S9> [and er] meaning that inside the campus er within the walls of the campus er this is tr- something er a work in progress we're trying to do it now the access even to those works that are not er that are even on the black list of these er publishers er would be permitted as access to er library funds so of course if a student rolls out of the campus or goes out to the home or whatever he or she will not have access probably to the whole set of material but inside the institution that deals with education it strikes me as reasonable so it </S34>
<SU> i think so and </SU>
<S34> yes and there and there are many many more challenges for libraries yes thank you [for your question] </S34>
<S38> [that's that's only i think that's only] the library i mean in tampere area i mean there are some journals you can access in on campus but if you go home you cannot er have access to them er (though) you are a student or researcher or whatever </S38>
<S34> [yes so maybe yeah] </S34>
<S38> [i mean i think this zone] zone [thing is] </S38>
<S34> [in this] sense library even giving its name to a <S9> [mhm-hm] </S9> [system] er to a set of rules can still er retain as a its influence as a protective shield you know and gather within the maintain the free exchange of knowledge so thank you for your comment . anymore </S34>
<S25> would <NAME S29> like to say something about these publications plans we have from the (procedure) you're now gone through the material and have some [some feel] </S25>
<S29> [yeah feel] also all the all of my givers have been all all of my givers have been (tagged) that that you have er given to us whether it's er your full papers or your lecture notes or or er er er basic presentations we will put on the net also if you have if you haven't b- given them to us previously you can do it now and and we can we can put them put them on the ne- net so all of that should be accessible and we are also planning to publish er the papers as as a book due er in in er during this sp- spring so that's that's one of the plans to continue this thing also </S29>
<S25> so i think from our side then we would be happy if you can can sort of inform others about the the website so that so that the material finds its way to to potentially interested people </S25>
<S18> <NAME S27> </S18>
<S27> er have i interpreted er correctly that that er i think our our plan is not necessarily automatically to to publish everything er presented but but to er motivate the people to (xx) might make some proposals and motivate people to c- continue on fur- further with the papers so that that they might try to find look look for the possibilities to to make a a well-balanced collection of papers which might have something relevant to say concerning questions of (corporative) versus (science) development </S27>
<S25> some final word from professor <NAME S39> (for efforts) </S25>
<S39> no no i asked her if my lecture's <S25> [oh @okay@] </S25> [(xx)] <SS> @@ </SS> <S34> okay </S34> they were doing us a room and some students are still here so they [yeah] </S39>
<S25> [yeah] </S25>
<S34> okay [so] </S34>
<S25> [or] you- er yeah but another one hand was <NAME S13> </S25>
<S13> i was just going to supplement <COUGH> the issue of publication in terms of its content and format that it's a really valid point that you should revise the papers in terms of what the feedback would be from our fellow participants in terms of format it should be reformed er for example the referencing and so on and there should be some plan that you can er and that you could basically let the program (xx) </S13>
<S29> yes the idea is that we go through all the all the papers and read them and and then come back to you and make <SU> [yes] </SU> [suggestions] and and so on and and maybe this this kind of template for for (xx) or or (xx) </S29>
<S25> yes so maybe i can then thank everybody for coming it was exciting to put this programme together with all of you and to be part of it these days and and i think i think we have achieved a lot i look forward to keeping in touch </S25>
<S13> there was a one [(xx)] </S13>
<SS> [<APPLAUSE>] </SS>
<S31> i would also like to remind you those of you who want to come to sauna come to the hotel at 15 past five and we'll go from there . everybody is invited </S31>
