<TITLE: Crossroads in Cultural Studies Conference 1: White Nights, Dark Spaces - Cultural Abstractions of Northern Landscapes
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: cultural studies
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS01C
NOTES: continuation of CPRE01A-C, (CDIS01A-B and CDIS01D are part of the same conference), recording incomplete

RECORDING DURATION: 25 min 33 sec

RECORDING DATE: 1.7.2002

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 29

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 11

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown ; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

NS5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown (Canada); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

NS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (New Zealand); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

NS9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Canada); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>



<PRESENTATIONS CPRE01A by S1, CPRE01B by S2, AND CPRE01C by S3>

<S4> thanks to our speakers (xx) start the discussion and answer questions . yeah </S4>
<NS5> erm i have a a question to the second speaker i i wondered to what extent er you consider that your construction of northernness in the canadian context in terms of a frontier erm mythology or in terms of wilderness are challenged through the creation of nunavut in the eastern arctic er a couple of years ago because it seems to me that perhaps through nunavut have become more visible the contestedness of northernness and in fact the heterogeneity of of discourses around northernness and the north </NS5>
<S2> mhm . sh- shortly nunavut has created both cause of these problems , er er but it doesn't really , well unfortunately it doesn't really challenge the predominant er i think deeply the predominant ideas of what the what the canadian north is to start with nunavut is instituted as a territory (is to (xx) it off) from an already existing territory and it has been a long process in the canadian north trying to get provincial rights (that says) the rights that all the other canadian parts beneath 60 degrees north have , erm but this has still not been set up what is divide is is a territory which gets a rather low state funding inuit gets a state funding and it's a symbolic achievement for the inuit to get this sort of own because the inuit are are majority in nunavut <NS5> mhm-hm </NS5> but they don't get a very very high state funding and they do not get these higher provincial rights that all the areas beneath 60 degrees north in canada have , so it maintains this province territory , erm separation they don't get any any larger , or they don't get the actual self-governing rights that provinces have so it maintains this distinction between a territorial north and a more developed provincial south </S2>
<NS5> but it has considerable considerably greater autonomy during the last couple of years than than it had previously i asked the question because in terms of what i was talking about in the previous session (xx) we're in fact doing a parallel research on south part (xx) cape (dawson) and some of the are becoming very conscious in the process of doing them <S2> [yeah] </S2> [in] research of the very different narratives of <S2> mhm </S2> northernness that could emerge </NS5>
<S2> mhm yeah exactly , well i think it has this large i think this symbolic , er the perception of the inuit to nunavut inuit actually get their own area is very much larger than the actual , it has a large actual impact but i think the symbolic one is maybe the the largest this idea of self-determination because otherwise they have a a large degree of of very many land claims procedures <NS5> [mhm-hm] </NS5> [going] on this is also result of the (xx) it's a very big fractured (xx) it doesn't have a constitutional s- sort of territorial provincial change can they still enforce in this northern identity this arctic identity and they still have these huge problems of course man can hope that nunavut and it certainly helps this change , but i do- i don't think it's a a drastic rupture it's more that it's one step on on the better @@ on the right way . thanks </S2>
<S6> i pick up on on this discussion er i note that's (xx) national power rate and er , first i'd like to say that as a (xx) er i have a number of comments to make er it's quite shocking and certainly very healthy to er realise that some kind of canadian hegemonic discourse of narratives er might be influencing ways in which the northern europe is being seen and and in- influ- influencing northern european or or u- understanding some northern european ways are quite inappropriate or perhaps even harmful and er so it's quite but that's that's tha- that's quite new and in a certain sense we're (xx) to a rather genuine receiving end of er of this kind of er hegemonic er er narrative about er how the north works (xx) from ourself and <COUGH> a number of comments er you can't possibly fail to be aware er of the er extremely long history of er white er er or european and native interaction in the north since the foundation of the hudson bay company in 1683 er which would suggest that er contrary to your suggestion problems in the north (that are there) are to some extent result of er recent administrative arrangements in fact problems have been (xx) extremely long standing , you suggest at one point also that canadian state developed only since 1867 whereas in fact they've had functioning parliament since er 1788 and er that the canadian state emerged against the northern frontier er which is er <COUGH> the even bigger legacy whereas in fact the canadian state emerged against the the western frontier and <COUGH> so what what m- am i contra- (xx) towards is a is a certain sense that i think you perhaps well cr- currently identifying er the the dangers of applying this canadian discourse about the north erm to the european north and the same time i think er <COUGH> perpetuating a number of quite standard er european academic (talks) about and north america about about , less about canada perhaps but to a certain extent also of canada (namely) youngness erm er inexperience erm shallowness er and i i find i find it quite problematic given the sensitive nature of your distingu- yo- yo- yo- distinctions between the european north and , so perhaps you could answer some some of those er </S6>
<S2> alright i'll try that <S6> alright </S6> er i lost it a bit on last er the the nature of the distinc- distinctive (xx) erm first the northernness discussion in canada this is not just me coming from my european perspective there is this large discussion in canada too , by canadians people like <NAME> and and <NAME> and there's also a new book that came out just so a week ago about canada and the idea of the north the very diff- the specific meaning the north has in canada and i would has to (develop) in this have have (established) large importance which i think can be compared as a natural (xx) in any of the other eight arctic states sort of the north has this very specific idea er er which means that canada has this this large area of what is to draw from this large area of governmental policy that deal with the north with the north in this conceptions , a- and and then what i try to do is take both the canadian critique and the differences i see from a north northern european perspective and take up well (xx) these changes that's where does this difference come from and there i think the canadian sort of hegemony comes from i think it it actually exists as large body of canadian institutions that <S6> mhm </S6> have these developed ideas of back and forward . erm [now] </S2>
<S6> [(xx) shouldn't you] include by the way much higher per capitas claiming for northerners for welfare and particularly also fragment of development to the canadian (xx) that 20,000 people in nunavut can't be province , <S2> mhm </S2> 20,000 people in nunavut couldn't (run) a province it all have to be employed to run as a province given what the responsibilities of a province are er so </S6>
<S2> yeah this is [all very much discussed er this is a this is a large] </S2>
<S6> [this used to be yeah in your (xx)] </S6>
<S2> this is a large (xx) issue in in canada as well they should be a province and not under the there's been several several attempts to make indian provinces my point is that this doesn't even exist , as an issue in northern north europe there are several these problematics that don't even <S6> [right yeah] </S6> [exist as problematics] and i when speak on the emergence of , a a canadian state sort of then what i speak about isn't all these these reasons of of development but the idea ideas towards which it which it developed i mean it's certainly a different way i mean what i present now is is actually from a 100 pages of my dissertation which was made into a 20 page , er article which was made into 15 15 page so <S6> [yeah] </S6> [so it's] it's a bit simplified @@ and it is a 100 page in the dissertation and it's a bit more than you asked there er but the idea that er it was developed in in a different way i mean the hudson bay was this trading company and the people (xx) came in from from (xx) they saw themselves as outsiders (xx) periods of time it was not this settled people actually were born there lived there died there it was never this settled structure at this time and in these times the northern was (xx) actually half settled i- , at least the idea that that (xx) in 1630 well it must be or something than norbåtten in sweden was made er a full part of sweden so it is this this much (xx) <S6> mhm-hm </S6> and this time it was the hudson bay company in canada and it was the he- it was the british north america colonies and that i think (xx) as the victory was actually this colonisation process <S6> [yeah] </S6> [but this full] idea of this immigration into north america and all this is a very difference different story <S6> [absolutely yeah] </S6> [and the entirety] of er moving into the western frontier is something very much very much different than what was development was developing in the northern europe in the frontier was the west and insist that the idea which is then developed into the north is (xx) arctic of the canadian arctic in the 1950s </S2>
<S6> yeah <S2> [(xx)] </S2> [try to position] of of of an already extremely problematic <S2> [yeah exactly] </S2> [mythology] to er to you (feel that that) <S2>  yeah </S2> my point really is that i think that you (xx) away but that that the great deal of of what you have to say is rooted in or ought to be rooted in a very much deeper historical context that that avoids certain kinds of of er of er hopes of oldness and youngness and looks instead that er some very deep-seated and very long running problems we hudson bay company had permanent settlements in the north canada since the er since the 1690s they really were permanent settlements [and the english (xx) and] </S6>
<S2> [yeah i take up] a bit it it in my [(xx)] </S2>
<S6> [and and] those extreme problematics happens to , <S2> yeah </S2> certainly </S6>
<S2> yeah , yeah sure i said this is a 100 pages it's er er a arbitrary in the versions . yeah i know it's an it's it's much more differential i think that , the deep dream i try to do is interpret the frontier that all this relates to frontier with with the idea the the idea of your frontier and the importance this had and that that domination and this is what makes work you're not the only one (xx) this statement the idea of of a traditional (xx) there e- environment which in a very different fashion in wilderness , er and what the traditional is and this is a key point i think and the key difference between what is seen as northern or which one can't juxtapose into (xx) </S2>
<S6> okay </S6>
<NS7> erm my question is for <NAME S8> i'm i was interested in the ((xx) you made) after your talk whether you suggested that er there exists a tension between european ideology of regionalism and the idea of northernness as a regional identity er how many from the perspective of us , southerner and place where we always try to be away from this idea of being in south in new zealand we don't really appreciate that at all and even the south for us including the antarctic is is is a problem because as you say that , people have different (stadiums) where they (xx) their stocks including the regions so i was wondering if you could explain a little bit more what you see as the margins of europe versus the the northernness and the concept of of regionalism as such </NS7>
<S8> okay yeah this <COUGH> perhaps it's sort of (xx) for a question (xx) high above the state that of course the north er (xx) discourse have a very long roots going back to the ancient greece and (xx) comes out that this er the north is backward north is barbarian north is uncivilized but it it has also have a long roots for turning it upside down it's it's surprisingly long it's coming all the way 16th century saying that the north is not backward or the north is (centric) or let's say that is a sw- swedish way of saying it , this old (gothic) way of (doing the) er that er the true central of the europe is not er not on on west er or it's in the north but another way it is about a tradition is for coming from finland but this has been i think it's could be found in sweden as well in russia for example is that er accepting all the times er the the marginality peripheral is seen that to be a little bit uncivilised (xx) is making giving us positive identity er while then this is purifying to soul making people more honest and more er it's not accurately assimilisation and some way all these elements are used (xx) er and have this this type of northenising north in this a source perhaps a new er identity er it's not it's have to have other elements connected to it perhaps er european assimilation to be high technology and so but this that there's everyone cannot be that european (xx) er to be something different to being on margins is is is something very very special but of course er talking about original identities perhaps it's still quite (xx) that seeing the northern dimension case you have to have , erm say er a common narrative to say that we have common past and traditions and that's , still perhaps one way to cope with us finns as coming fr- coming er history of the russia (xx) erm source of of we can call the story that way but no-one's (xx) , yeah (xx) </S8>
<NS9> erm just a small comment i'm also canadian and er i'm born in finland so i'm little bit of combination of both but what i find quite interesting is the idea of er the north as being something that we all have ideas about we have sometimes in our minds a construct about it i think too that the north is a huge er expanse in canada and i would be afraid to call it just the north because there's gradations of how far north you're going and in fact i've never lived more or less than a 100 kilometres er close to the US border i've always lived in what i would consider northern parts of canada not the north far north but central north and so i don't see it quite the same way and i think that one of the interesting things i have come across in my research on on finnish immigrants in manitoba for example is the number of finnish immigrants that moved to the north of canada and lived a lifestyle of fishing and trapping out there and how i would really be interested to know about how they see the north <S6> mhm-hm </S6> and perhaps a little bit about their own finnish background if they fit together in some way this is just a thought not really any kind of a question </NS9>
<P:12>
<WHISPERING>
<S2> (xx) yeah go ahead </S2>
<NS5> i have a a question for the first speaker but i'm a bit hesitant to ask it because it would be very difficult to answer in a short space of time but i was curious as to how you were theorising <S1> erm </S1> i don't know if er your work i don't know if you can <S1> erm </S1> just comment on it very briefly but i'm interested to know </NS5>
<S1> er i'm using the the books and writings of <NAME> and <NAME> they are speaking about postmodernity and that's this picture and the (xx) points coloured points er , the idea that the (observative) qualities of the world have changed so much that we have change our way of representing the world and the second point er , is that the glo- globalisation means the corporation of time and space , and that should somehow ref- be reflected in polar presentations and finally what is my own sort of thinking here is that 'cause (harvey) focuses so much on spatial relations the change of spatial relations , er i hope to be able to look at the temporal aspect more but today my presentation was very sort of direct historical review so i'm not i haven't done very much of that kind of temporal work yet that's very short answer </S1>
<NS5> thanks </NS5>
<P:07>
<S10> i just like to make a brief comment on this the last speaker who (in parenthesis) mentioned that er , er , well look look at the way sweden has er now been redefined itself as a sort of the north as well just like er other (xx) and perhaps i already said that i thought ah yeah you know the the myth of sweden as the the north just like you said the modernity you know has started to fade and they they have to go to the back to their own past history to much more positive er discourse history has been reintroduced to secondary level schools as as an obligatory subject the first time despite social-democratic (groans) about it <SS> @@ </SS> so i thought maybe this was another part of the the process of you know a new myth being reformed so i was very i was very glad he's mentioned that i thought also the fact that er one of the great projects in sweden before as part of their modernity was this idea of colonising their northern regions and er it was back a long way to to the back to <NAME> in in the 17th century who thought of the north as the not the periphery but the centre i think you mentioned it something to that as well but the north was the place where the goths came from and they were the ones who se- seeded europe with culture and they had this bizarre dream of of sweden as the centre of civilisation which was co- continued to some extent even with somebody like linneus the the famous swedish er , er , scientist most famous swedish scientist who also had these a- amazing plans to to recreate er a sort of a idyllic er eden in the north of northern regions in lapland where they could grow plants from all over the world and especially (xx) this you know this marvellous plan of re-colonising i think maybe that's also to do the fact that sweden was landlocked and hadn't access to the colonies er such as other countries even denmark of course made to their colony in greenland er so this was part of their sort of colonising their own country but er i i kind of er missed er (xx) there wasn't so much about actual colonisation as a part of this er northern er northernness i've i thought i was i'm not sure about the finnish context how finland er , looks upon its own northern region whether it was it's it was seen as an area they could colonise or whether , sweden is too young a country to have er experienced this sort of wave of enthusiasm for a colonialisation i don't know who would . could answer that question </S10>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S3> well shortly the nordic countries <COUGH> discover the northern areas er due to er people coming from areas london berlin and so forth during the enlightenment pe- period the romantic image of of the nordic finnish norwegian or or or <COUGH> finnish approach to the north has very much been er modernising the north i mean mines er pulp er timber all that sort of thing and and it has been a missionary type of a zeal in the sense that they (xx) to be to do away with the primitive and for example the kven the kven were also se- seen as a kind of er security <COUGH> er danger because they deviated from from from from the main part of the population they lived where the native people across cross the <COUGH> the the the border and so forth now er the attitudes are changing and and and the nordic countries are discovering so to say the resources of the north also in the cultural manner and not just i- i- in terms of conservating the north but also playing around to some extent with with with the with the images of the north for example the foreign norwegian foreign ministry , couple of years ago er <COUGH> stated openly that they made a profound mistake by repressing the kven people trying to homogenise them in in into the norwegian culture <COUGH> that they actually they lost resources which they now need to the cross c- cross border cooperation wh- wh- which is multilingual and and and multicultural so in in <COUGH> in the process of trying to mould the nordic countries into one pa- particular type of modernity they they lost something which they now need in a more plu- pluralistic less (moulded) post-modern landscape but my story was just about that that the also the north itself seem to be very skilfully here and they're able to (hint) to this post-modern <SU> uh-huh </SU> culture that that <COUGH> it's not it's not just the the south exporting a post-modern leisure culture tou- tou- <COUGH> touristic culture to the north also the north may be a subject er be be an agent in in in in that picture and that's what the jukkasjärvi icehotel to some extent and some of it aspects (xx) </S3>
<S11> er i'm from japan er japan has the hokk- , hokkaido island hokk- hokkaido er island people er yes they're native people er like er er some sort er , er from er (eto) era er er there is strong er the the government force to control er , the island people er , so er i have er i think er there there is same er all the same condition er what's the er , er northern part of europe so er er this invasion er to er hokkaido hokkaido is the er er island people's (run) so er i have er er same type of invasion from south , to north so er , i have a the the s- same co- er condition er to er that north er northern landscape er to make the north- northern landscape er i have also er er i i as japanese so i i have some kind of er (xx) er mind to er island people so i i see this is as er almost same kind of co- condition er in europe and in er north-east part of asia . sort of . @can understand@ <SU>  yes </SU> okay . er especially er erm russian er southbound er expansion er against the this er this power and er to modernise er island people so i i i i mhm have had almost same condition </S11>
<P:06>
<NS7> i want to ask <NAME S2> </NS7>
