<TITLE: Gender and Interaction
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: women's studies
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD050
NOTES: recording incomplete

RECORDING DURATION: 68 min 2 sec

RECORDING DATE: 1.10.2003

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 16

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 15

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Italian; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Icelandic; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

NS13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> actually since we have a new member in the group i would like you to s- you <NAME S2> to <S2> yeah </S2> tell tell m- tell us a little bit about yourself and </S1>
<S2> erm okay i'm i'm an italian PhD student from rome and i'm in a international PhD that's a european PhD and i'm guest for six months here erm while i'm will be here i will try to er make my research that's about couples and how do they spend their time between family and work and my idea is to compare italy and finland and at the same time since i'm here i thought it would be nice to take some course and i thought it would be interesting for me and my research to have this course in women's studies so that's why i'm here </S2>
<S1> have you done any women's studies before </S1>
<S2> well i have worked for erm about seven years in an international research it was a a comparative research in 27 different countries and i was working at the coordination of the research in rome with a with a professor and we have published a book (xx) about this this research (xx) elite and how do er if ho- how much is the elite influenced by er the gender issue the what how a man and women leaders are how much ther- are they different and so on </S2>
<S1> fine (thank you) welcome </S1>
<S2> thank you </S2>
<SU> i brought [this] </SU>
<S1> [well i] i'll start with , some of my thoughts from our last session , try to summarise a little bit , what we discussed and , what you wrote about . this er somehow it became evident that er this categoration of both male and female it happens in all sort of sorts of social situations , and there's some special situations or social settings such as family that have a lot to do , er with what is required of us and what we require of ourselves , and in some stories or from that i read , it seemed to be that er being a woman meant somehow being restricted , things you should learn not to do how not to behave if you're supposed to be proper girl or a woman , er for example in <NAME S3> 's stories and <NAME S9>'s . and i remember <NAME S14> who wrote something about er this different incidents inside families , and erm , perhaps the image of girls should be then , something of purity and helplessness that's what what i thought and the boys' life was more defined by independence and privilege in those occasions but also perhaps more responsibility outside the family ring , well it seems a bit er , not so equal at this point but we have to remember that this doesn't necessarily mean that all situations are easier if you're a man , this if there's a norm that you're if you're a man you should always be on top of every situation and take a control and know what to do that al- also puts pressure on you , for example what <NAME S12> told us , that when when you're a you're the only man and you're the only one speaking something and nobody's taking the floor to speak and you're somehow you you're <SIGH> , pressed to do something save the day maybe . but when when one only one man is there and one only one man is speaking then he can be categorised by the women that aren't saying anything er well that guy is only speaking this and that and he doesn't know anything of this field . and then there were a couple of stories about working as a waitress , and we could see that in some respects you can have some advantage from being a woman , but that also means that you have to adjust yourself if you're a nice and smiling all the time and happy and , and maybe a little bit helpless sometimes that's okay for you and you can get s- erm , get some privileges from that , and actually er the most service occupations are such occupations . we are going to talk about emotional work later on during the presentations and this is actually one , one sort of profession that that requires emotional work you have to keep yourself in check all the time , er your emotions are part of that work that you do you can't just , in order to get tips and and , get @more@ more jobs and so you have to , be in control , but when you get these privileges and so on then you have to give up something of yourself you just can't . always you can't be in a win win situation i guess in these sort of things . there was some that wrote about erm , not taking advantage of your gender that you shouldn't when you're a woman you shouldn't take advantage of that , and i was kind of wondering what was meant with with that remark for example i remember perhaps you were talking about it , <S3> [er] </S3> [what is] the context what did [you mean] </S1>
<S3> [erm] actually i had this paper i describe it before i wrote it but erm i mean that there i- there are differences between men and women and erm we have to be conscious of them but we shouldn't use them too much for example i know i am woman and i should just er for example when i am going shopping with my husband i should just give him everything and er be i don't know he is carried er four bags or five bags <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and i'm] going just because i am woman without anything , i shouldn't use it's just because it's polite that he as man should keep my bags and my er things i didn't say but it's obvious we should share the things , there are few things that it's polite if man is doing it for example i don't know er waiting in front of the door and that and letting woman go first <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] you just have to keep this mhm i don't know just mhm go in the middle and that's it </S3>
<S1> is it do you think it's difficult [or easy] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] i think it's <S1> [mhm] </S1> [very] difficult <S1> yeah </S1> and you have to work on it but it's worth the while i mean </S3>
<S1> mhm what about you what do you think , is it okay , to have some advantages [for one] </S1>
<S4> [you just] <COUGH> i think that depends on the situation be- be- because er i don't know i i probably @@ really enjoy situations when er er yeah , i don't know when when men are yeah like @real gentlemen@ or something like that i enjoy that but that's not the the thing that it's that it's a great advantage for me it's just i don't <S1> [mhm] </S1> [know] because because i like it but there's there's no @@ <S1> yeah </S1> [@there's no gender problem@] </S4>
<S1> [i know yeah] in that situation there isn't such a , perhaps not as strong question of power it's more the politeness <S4> [yeah] </S4> [i guess] it (xx) . but but perha- maybe when you think about perhaps career , there could be some situations that are more questionable perhaps , or not . well , there were some some , things about power that you wrote , for example in in your story about the about hitch-hiking there was , er certain a- amount of power that the man offering the ride was trying to . practice on , over you but fortunately in this case there were certain limits that , he couldn't have his way actually . and that that was actually in in many ways interesting and good that you (xx) about this because we can see how the situations are always open to different interpretations and , there are always well there are two or more participants there's always , er possibility to misunderstand one <S5> yeah </S5> orient to the sit- er to orient oneself to the situation in in many ways <S5> yeah </S5> and then <NAME S6> you you spoke of , of these situations that you actually felt sort of the lack of power and we didn't have that much time last time , so we could get into that a bit more , er you wrote that you felt that you weren't accepted because of your gender , and i was just wondering about that you you mentioned about pouring pouring the water and and perhaps opening a window were there other sort of signs of this </S1>
<S6> mhm , erm i don't know it's wa- it was only the that my position becau- about these position of these two women they're , focus- focusing on gender they're i don't know what's in english it's er maybe female activist or something like that <SS> [@@] </SS> [@i don't know what's it@] is it emancinet but </S6>
<S1> [@uh-huh emancipated@ women they're normally] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> yeah what have we really emancipated </S5>
<S1> well what what mean what does it mean that you're really emancipated </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [emancipated] </S6>
<S4> i think it's a kind of er radical feminists </S4>
<SS> yes yeah </SS>
<SU> [er] </SU>
<S1> [well] what is radical because we don't have any radical feminists in finland so it's no what's the , what's the definition of a [radical] </S1>
<S4> [no] i i'm not sure if if radical is the is the is the right word maybe i don't know er b- women who are er arguing in every situation er with with all the gender @stuff@ <S1> yeah @okay (xx)@ </S1> but really in every situation and er everything depends on on their on their sex and nothing else and it's the the only , their their only problem in life are are men and how are men thinking i don't know @@ </S4>
<S7> for example this simple example was the opening of the door and who should go first and then a radical feminist would say you should go first </S7>
<S4> yeah <SU> [yeah] </SU> [and start] a discussion [about it @@] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> alright well mhm well do you think in your case that , it was done normally these things that you were put into in your place , do you think they did this i- knowingly you know [would you] </S1>
<S6> [erm mhm] no i don't think so er i don't know it was only er their their habit (xx) their mhm invisible habit maybe i or maybe in their position <S1> yeah </S1> as i know it <S1> mhm </S1> mhm </S6>
<S1> okay it's a (xx) <S6> mhm </S6> so again not always being the only man gives you the most power (xx) , now once again i was thinking about this manhood and womanhood and , is it an accomplishment or or what is it , because er in few texts there were er something about erm having a family and in yours <NAME S8> there was this er about giving birth of as a part of being a woman the real womanhood and then it <SIGH> , sort of er suddenly i thought well what about if you are not able to have children , then what , is the having children is it the definition of being a woman </S1>
<S8> i think it might be very personal i think if i couldn't have children i think i would affect somehow , me and my and how i see myself as a woman , but i think it's very personal <S1> yeah </S1> you don't have to have children to feel like a woman but i i'm just thinking about my aunt who never married and never had children and er , and she's very old now and i've talked to her about it and she says that now she regrets it because she doesn't have anyone doesn't have a real family <S1> mhm </S1> so , but i think it's very personal but i don't think you have to have children to feel like a woman i think that's a very , a stigmatised way to think about a woman mhm </S8>
<S1> but do you think there's any er presse- er , pressure from the society </S1>
<S8> yeah , definitely , at least in my experience it is yeah but then again i like i said i come from this huge family so many small children that it's just facing me every day almost so but maybe it's different for other people </S8>
<S1> mhm-hm , mhm </S1>
<S7> i think it changed during the during the time , so now it's not that important that it was before to have children , for a woman , so i don't think that it's in not for a i don't have this feeling that you have to have children to be a woman i don't know i don't think so </S7>
<S9> yeah but i think that there is a difference when you don't have children because you don't want and you don't have children because you can't <S1> mhm [okay] </S1> [and er] when women when she wants to have children i think she is very disappointed of her er femininity and er being a woman , er if she if she wants it <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] she can't </S9>
<S1> mhm , yeah what about russia </S1>
<S10> what about it </S10>
<S1> yeah er what about </S1>
<S10> feeling feeling a woman </S10>
<S1> yeah <S10> oh </S10> is it always with [children or not] </S1>
<S10> [it's it's] depend of part of russia but there are a lot of so er different er . religions and so so in er for example as i know in my town for example it doesn't depend but if and i know woman who haven't children and he they didn't want and don't want and i know womens who they want to have children but they can't and it's awful but it isn- but er all time they're wom- woman it it well it doesn't depend <S1> yeah [okay] </S1> [have they] or not </S10>
<S1> yeah well what about religion in general have you noticed that that has some sort of effect on , on you and . how (xx) </S1>
<S11> maybe maybe it does affect us for example if you're a catholic and you get pregnant and you don't want to have the baby <S1> mhm </S1> then this is a big problem i think it [can't be good] <S1> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S1> i don't know i think it always depends on on your family again if they , are strict in their views on the matter </S11>
<S1> the sort of gender roles aren't that much defined by the religion </S1>
<S11> of course they are defined by the religion but er . i think your own opinion or your own behaviour depend on the way your family erm interpre- or interpret interpret it er something like this er this <SU> [(xx)] </SU> [(religion)] yeah you know and </S11>
<S3> and also said the same as i wrote in my essay was er that that even (friends) always make (xx) er on the way how do you understand the religion and erm for example if people are i don't know on the last session we have heard that in islam is it so difficult but islam is actually the first religion that has recognised woman as a the same person like a man christianity and other religions came later so actually we have been conscious about it just it depends how muslim people and other people who are living in this religion interpretate it and use it in a culture but in christianity for example in my case erm , i don't i'm christian and mhm , i come like i said from a village and actually if you're going to the er , an church and you're hearing that for example i know the old testament and the new also and there is said that er women shall always hear men and er me- should be good to the men and men should be good to the women and if you you just have to think in which time it was written and how was the culture but if people don't have these thoughts in their heads and just hear it and go to the to home and er require it from women that's the problem so actually it is not a problem in the religion but it's problem how people react and i don't know think about the whole world and the whole religion that they take home so actually it just depends on people and not on religion shall we say </S3>
<S1> any other thoughts on that . mhm-hm , okay then we will move on to , the social construction of gender and a bit about the language . as mentioned before gender is a process of doing . and gender is the most persistent of all categories . when we think about all the definitions , such as profession relationships perhaps even hobbies , we can always , in the end see that it comes down to the two genders . so what we are and what we do can always be characterised , with gender specific terms . and there can be actually at this point there can be some language differences , for for for example erm in finnish language language . er whe- where we don't have these sort of , er suffixes or such that can indicate it if we're talking about a man or a woman , in case of professions or such , then it becomes pretty clear , that the masculine is usually the norm and then the female is somehow , somehow er an exception , for example if you're a doctor or lawyer or musician or something like that . when you read a er an article in the newspaper or or something like that yeah , if there's a woman in question then you add the word before it but if it's just something about a doctor or a lawyer or something like that then it's a man if if it's not mentioned , and sometimes it gets you in some sort of funny situations . (so i) ha- have some finnish words here for just for you to see and and maybe you have some examples from your own language . now we can see how much you've learned finnish (xx) <SU> @@ yeah </SU> okay so , for example , we're in the women's studies department , so we're learning <FOREIGN> naistutkimus </FOREIGN> then . so <FOREIGN> nais </FOREIGN> meaning a woman and <FOREIGN> tutkimus </FOREIGN> research , er and if you're a person , a researcher a female researcher in this area then you're <FOREIGN> naistutkija </FOREIGN> . and , someti- sometimes when i read about <SIGH> some research in newspapers and then there's this sentence that er er <FOREIGN> naistutkija </FOREIGN> comments on this and that and then i thought think er okay there's somebody from women's studies department that's doing this because obviously then , she's a <FOREIGN> naistutkija </FOREIGN> but also . if you're a researcher of anything and you're a woman you're also called <FOREIGN> naistutkija </FOREIGN> <SS> @@ </SS> @@ but , then you're not a called just <FOREIGN> tutkija </FOREIGN> researcher , you're a female researcher so the same word used in these both occasions , but then again if you're a man then you're just a researcher , i- i haven't seen like this sort of , male researcher or @man researcher@ in any place <P:08> then i wanted to talk about some sort of expressions that we use . that are defined or thought of as positive , for example there's this <FOREIGN> hyvä jätkä </FOREIGN> would you like to explain it for us <S12> [well] </S12> [or would] you think about it and then i fill in </S1>
<S12> mhm well , i don't know how to explain it so </S12>
<S1> yeah <S12> [mhm] </S12> [well] perhaps er . if other people that you're really er , you're a good good mate , or a good good friend or you do things you play well or whatever or you're just a good friend , they can call you , a good guy , this is the direct translation , and if you're really a good lad when you're a woman a really good friend and nice to hang out with then you're also <FOREIGN> hyvä jätkä </FOREIGN> and <FOREIGN> jätkä </FOREIGN> is yeah the masculine word then for this , still well , you can think som- somehow it's a achievement that you're a as good as a man in some sort of , way would you agree or not </S1>
<S12> well yes but it's not as straight forward as that it has to do with erm . well if you call a good friend who's a woman that it sort of , er , it sort of means that she understands your sense of humour and she is not too , <SS> [@@] </SS> [how should i say it like too delis-] too girly or too delicate but it doesn't doesn't necessarily deprive a person of of of femininity at all i don't but . sometimes sometimes you'd you'd you'd first find that you call some er you call a woman <FOREIGN> hyvä jätkä </FOREIGN> and then laugh about it like whoops sorry @@ <SS> @@ </SS> <S1> [okay] </S1> [something] like that </S12>
<S1> and there's also this expression that is also in english that if you're really good at what you do perhaps your work er you achieve something in the so-called man's world then you're you got balls and you can say that to a woman too , i mean @you you got@ really good qualities then you're really are strong and going on going on successfully then you're you got balls , and that's a compliment then i guess <SS> @@ </SS> for some people at least , this was actually now , there are some words that are treated traditional and this is from er world of politics , if there's a , in the parliament there's the spokesman , but if if the spokesman is a woman then @@ then she's called mrs spokesman <FOREIGN> rouva puhemies </FOREIGN> that's actually a bit funny that you just keep this old word and traditions and expressions and then you just , then you just add , mrs in front of it and it was quite funny actually when when our president was elected and er the military came to greet her it was sort of the first inspectionals or something like that and at that time she wasn't married but she had lived with with . with her partner many years but they weren't married and in this inspection the soldiers greeted her with er good morning mrs president and she actually wasn't even a mrs so it was sort of difficult for them to find a good good expression . and then this last one er <FOREIGN> neitikiekko </FOREIGN> well this is from the world of sports , er <FOREIGN> kiekko </FOREIGN> is er referring to ice-hockey . almost our national sport @@ er , if you're really weak an wimpy and and delicate about playing ice-hockey in the field your team mates can refer to your playing tactics as , <FOREIGN> neitikiekko </FOREIGN> and <FOREIGN> neiti </FOREIGN> means means a miss or girl so this sort of a this female thing , means something negative in this respect then </S1>
<S11> (xx) (or you're not good enough) (xx) </S11>
<S1> yeah yeah , or not strong enough in that region </S1>
<S12> 'cause there's a difference betwe- in <SU> [yeah @@] </SU> [the rules if it's] if it's like , you know i think i'm not too familiar with the differences but i think it refers to that i don't know what they're allowed to do but some things are not allowed in women's hockey that are allowed in men's hockey so maybe the i don't know if there's not enough action they might call it that </S12>
<S1> yeah yeah too <DISC CHANGE> so i liked you to think about if you have this sort of expressions or , or sort of words in your own language . that refer to male or female </S1>
<S8> yeah to be a student in iceland you have to say er it's always a male so it's a , student male you know dre- directly translated and when i was doing my tax report i just got so sick of it to hear that word so i just invented a new word so i just said student woman <S1> uh-huh </S1> yeah and i now i just use it and it sounds okay but it's a totally new word but i think you can do that in your own language as well just invent a word </S8>
<S1> is that the only sort of context where you use this , only concerning students or are there other [(xx)] </S1>
<S8> [oh with] this is just about students <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] it's always (sort of) (xx) assumed that if you're a student you must be a man because it was such a privilege you know before , [so] <S1> [oh] yeah </S1> yeah </S8>
<S9> er but for example in polish language you got er the er name a human human it's masculine there is no exception for a woman so er human means as well male and female but it's masculine <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and er well @so it means that to be a human you need to be a man@ [@@] </S9>
<S1> [yeah] , you can't just say i'm not human (xx) </S1>
<S11> in german it's like this that you erm for example for every profession or for for nearly everything after for every title you add er the ending erm E-N <S1> mhm </S1> er and that's female so you always have to add this ending </S11>
<SU> (xx) i think there are a few exceptions but i think (xx) has always this ending </SU>
<S1> so what if you're a feminist then you're a masculine also </S1>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<SU> mhm what </SU>
<S6> [no it's no it's feminist] </S6>
<S4> [yeah it would it would] yeah it would be a <FOREIGN> feministin </FOREIGN> @@ [for example] </S4>
<S1> [yeah yeah] basic form would be then masculine also <FOREIGN> der feministin </FOREIGN> <S4> yeah </S4> [it's actually qu- quite funny] </S1>
<S6> [er german is] very ha- very er , erm mhm it's not open for erm there's this job er names are not open for everybody it's just for ex- for example a nurse is <S4> [yeah] </S4> [always] female it's al- it's always <FOREIGN> krankenschwester </FOREIGN> <S4> mhm </S4> and nobody's er using the male word it's a , for example secretary i don't know is mostly female [it's always] </S6>
<S1> [mhm] , but there are , male nurses aren't there </S1>
<S4> [yes but (xx)] </S4>
<S1> <S6> [yeah] </S6> [so aren't they also called (the word) yeah] yeah okay </S1>
<S6> mhm and there are also some examples in sports it's , some if somebody's playing bad football maybe you can say he's playing like a girl , and yeah or , some er some if a man is not that er , as used to be as er as used to be as a man there's always some female words for him maybe i i can't explain it in <FOREIGN> also </FOREIGN> i can't translate something like that it's er maybe <FOREIGN> (xx) </FOREIGN> <SS> [@@] </SS> [is it's something] that is is a gi- if someone it's a girl who's crying and and maybe it's , a good explanation for is erm a weaker man maybe <S1> uh-huh </S1> or , we also got this problem with the students i think <S4> [yeah] </S4> [that's a] student is is mostly male and if somebody is what i don't know (something) i i thought about it's <FOREIGN> studentin </FOREIGN> or <FOREIGN> studentenschaft </FOREIGN> </S6>
<S7> mhm <FOREIGN> hochschule studentenschaft </FOREIGN> </S7>
<S4> yeah [@@] </S4>
<SU> [they always] make way we always have to add something </SU>
<SU> and we always now write like this erm that we put this E [capital] </SU>
<S7> [make it] a capital letter so <S6> [er mhm] </S6> [within the word] there is now a capital letter , to <S1> [mhm] </S1> [say] that there are the male and the female <S1> yeah mhm </S1> it is there but it's [big (discussed)] </S7>
<S1> [but when you] talk about like groups or people you just don't add all sort of </S1>
<SS> [no @@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah] </S1>
<S7> [no] you you'll say always <FOREIGN> professorinnen </FOREIGN> or <FOREIGN> studentinnen </FOREIGN> you when you speak you always take an emphasis </S7>
<S4> [yeah at the university of course @@] </S4>
<S7> [<FOREIGN> studentinnen </FOREIGN> to say that you mean] not only the women because normally this means expresses only the female students <FOREIGN> stu- studentinnen </FOREIGN> but when you stress it a little bit <FOREIGN> studentinnen </FOREIGN> then you then all the audience will know oh it means i'm a student like this <SS> yeah mhm-hm </SS> but it's difficult </S7>
<S11> yeah but i think it's no problem for example if you are a girl and you just say like i'm a student in a male form that's no problem or if you </S11>
<S4> for me it is [yeah] </S4>
<S11> [yeah] </S11>
<S7> [for me too] </S7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S11> you know what for me it's no problem and i think it's no problem to speak of students and you just say the male word so i think there are a few things erm for example i think in the university it's like , overdone with these endings like like you were write the word student and then you write big letters E-N and then you write the ending for the plural in small letters again just to have like all people you have male and female and @you@ [we should change] </S11>
<S4> [but maybe maybe] that's er becau- maybe we are we are that familiar with with this in in austria because at the er austrian university politics is made <SU> yeah </SU> by women @@ so they are <SS> yeah mhm </SS> really concerned about all these er female forms in university <S1> mhm </S1> [so make] </S4>
<S7> [we had lectures] before for the student union and then there were all the erm parties said always with this great capital <FOREIGN> inen </FOREIGN> and only one party of these political parties said we are the circle of <FOREIGN> (xx) </FOREIGN> only the male form so you you were looking at all the parties and every party made it political correct and only one party didn't so then you just read it oh there is not the but so we're now very familiar to add these endings so when there is not this ending then i it , [then you see it then you see that oh they are not political correct] </S7>
<S4> [yeah @@ , it hurts if you see it @@] </S4>
<S1> yeah uh-huh mhm </S1>
<SU> [it's also when i] </SU>
<S7> [but with this politics] we have a lot of problems like this erm when you're the head of the region then you are called erm erm like country man <S4> yeah </S4> <FOREIGN> landeshauptman </FOREIGN> country ma- er major man <S4> yeah </S4> like this but no- when you are a woman then there is a problem so they add miss country er major man </S7>
<S1> er [(xx)] </S1>
<S4> [yeah but but you have to] </S4>
<S7> [(xx)] ends there again because it's a rule it's the right it's the [they can't just (xx)] </S7>
<S4> [no no no no] the no the <COUGH> this woman where's this job this er major man job she wanted that she is er called er major man miss <S1> [mhm] </S1> [major man] they er told told her okay we can say to you erm i don't know major wo- woman or something like that but she yes she's a conservative woman and she prefers [@@ to be called a man] </S4>
<SU> [mr major man] </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> or maybe it was like <S12> [i think it] </S12> [she she] considered that she had the balls for the @job@ </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S12> [i think it was] , i think it was the same with the finnish title that you introduced the <FOREIGN> rouva puhemies </FOREIGN> <SS> mhm yeah </SS> and er i think part of it might be being conservative or being you know , asserting authority but part of it might be not wanting to , sort of politicise the the title 'cause in finnish you don't if you if you put the feminine ending that's sort of incorrect 'cause it's nowadays it's an , it's like , if you call i- if there's a you know you go to a cafeteria and there's a there's a waiter and if if if it's if it's a woman and you call it wa- you call her waitress and it's like sort of like patting her on the head like like <SS> [@@] </SS> [i i mean that] adding the female form in finnish tends to be more , like because the word words a lot of words in themselves have no sex 'cause in in german you have the gender all the words have the gender but in finnish we don't have that <SU> [yeah] </SU> [so] maybe it's more politically correct to not put anything </S12>
<S2> mhm but sorry in finnish you don't have the gender or you have always the male , [is it] </S2>
<S12> [well] we don't have the language [doesn't have doesn't have] </S12>
<S2> [is it it is] on on the dictionary you have neutral or you have male </S2>
<S12> well the words in themselves they don't have a gender <S2> [uh-huh] </S2> [but] what she meant was that er as a result the male sometimes in some cases becomes the norm even though it's not in the language it's in the user er the the use of the language rather than the language itself 'cause the words , they don't have the wo- the words don't have gender </S12>
<S1> mhm okay and you had you had something to the </S1>
<NS13> well yeah erm in the united states when it comes to things like erm waiter or waitress like stewardess steward like erm those words are really getting phased out and people are starting to say the server , for a waiter and a waitress like it's the same word erm flight attendant it's the things like that erm i mean everybody here speaks english but erm yeah i'm s- so i'm sure you know that nouns don't really have a gender it's just the suffixes that you add on words and those are just getting phased out </NS13>
<S1> yeah i was thinking about actually this er , er for example if you er call somebe- somebody an er actor or an actress we have this same sort of er <FOREIGN> näyttelijä </FOREIGN> and <FOREIGN> näyttelijätär </FOREIGN> you could refer <FOREIGN> näyttelijätär </FOREIGN> could be then a woman but i've read somewhere like , that some women say that they don't want to be called an actress <COUGH> , that somehow er it's diminishing or somehow demeaning to them that the actor is the real artist and and the actress is then perhaps maybe something [little more light] </S1>
<S10> [something smaller] </S10>
<S1> yeah and the funny girl or something [in comedy] </S1>
<NS13> [like the actor- er] the oscar categories that's now best female actor best male [actor stuff like that so] </NS13>
<S1> [oh i didn't know] </S1>
<NS13> yeah and in articles it's always actor julia roberts or whatever </NS13>
<S1> it seems that sort of people are somehow aware of things in this yeah </S1>
<S5> another example might be like er for the (kind of) weather forecast that you used to call the lows always er or name the lows always after female names <S1> mhm-hm </S1> women's names and the highs after male names <S1> yeah </S1> [yeah they changed now but it used to be] </S5>
<S6> [now it's (xx)] you can buy the names now [nowadays] </S6>
<SU> [yeah and then they] (xx) </SU>
<S11> you can buy the name </S11>
<SU> yeah </SU>
<S6> for the weather mhm <SU> yeah </SU> <FOREIGN> <S14> yeah [(xx)] </S14> [(xx)] </FOREIGN> </S6>
<S11> you can buy the name </S11>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [yeah] </S6>
<S5> [yeah you can say] i would love like to this specialise high i would like to call it after my wife then you can pay it </S5>
<S1> er really </S1>
<NS13> oh for what </NS13>
<S5> for high and lows weather high and lows <NS13> [oh] </NS13> [yes] yeah so if you <NS13> [huh] </NS13> [have] somebody you don't like then you can say i want to call this typhoon @(shall i call like)@ like my neighbour </S5>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> @okay that sounds interesting@ . yeah </S1>
<S2> erm i wanted to say that er generally these erm suffixes that are used to indicate the woman in a role are something that is generally a man <S1> mhm </S1> that it's it's just about use you know if at the beginning is is that actress is something less than actor but if everybody used the word actor er an actress then the word actress would be as much as actors it's just you know just that the words have to be commonly used and then the differences will diminish i think <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but if er </S2>
<S1> oh how could how could [you implement such a practise yeah] </S1>
<S2> [yeah maybe it should be well] in in italy they have issued a word about ten years ago a law that if you are a woman you have to be called just miss just or ms not you you don't have any mrs anymore or miss you know you cannot be a miss because in the past they o- usually called ladies as miss even if they were 40 50 60 <S1> [er er] </S1> [years old and] it it meant that they were not married <S1> mhm </S1> and there was a kind of poor lady she's not married and we are continued to call her as miss so they issued a law that now all women after 18 years of age have to be called as ms and that's it but still people commonly call women miss <S1> [er] </S1> [but they] don't they don't call anymore miss women who are very old <S1> [yeah er] </S1> [as in the past] because there's this law and people have started to be more sensitive to this problem and i think that on the end somehow the law has had some results so <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] but we cannot [we cannot yeah we cannot have yeah] </S2>
<S1> [we can't have all the (xx)] </S1>
<S2> we cannot have laws for all the words but i mean if you have a continuously use of a word in some sense then the word will be you know will start to b- be a common use and it will be better and it will be accepted er </S2>
<S1> that's actually quite interesting 'cause in some cultures or or languages it would it would be er er the other way around that everybody is called mrs </S1>
<SU> yeah it's german german yeah </SU>
<S3> i mean i would i just thought that actually in english that's it was just a rule when you start to learn english it was said that er you u- usually just call miss [woman who doesn't have a husband and] </S3>
<S2> [oh but er er] but in english now they use they have miss <NS13> [miss] </NS13> [that's that] and then they and then they have this ms and ms is just M and S and it's for every woman and then you have mrs that's for women who are married and then you have M-I-S-S for women who are not married <SU> [yeah] <S3> [okay] </S3> </SU> okay so they have invented this M-S and in italy we have this the word is the same as mrs you know so everyo- everyo- ev- every women are mrs </S2>
<S3> oh okay [now i understand] </S3>
<S2> [there are] there are no miss anymore that's <FOREIGN> signorina </FOREIGN> is miss and that <FOREIGN> signora </FOREIGN> is mrs <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and by law we don't have <FOREIGN> signorina </FOREIGN> anymore [okay] </S2>
<SU> [oh oh] yeah but it's the same [in german] </SU>
<NS13> [by law] what do they do if you break the law [(xx)] </NS13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [oh @@ well i] no- you know now it's it's m- commonly used so it's not <NS13> [uh-huh] </NS13> [it's not] by law anymore it's not that people will think oh i have to do it by law </S2>
<NS13> yeah i just (xx) </NS13>
<S1> is this ms in common use in the united </S1>
<NS13> yeah erm i mean teachers when i was growing up and stuff they would say like i'm ms so and so but ms adamski is my fourth grade teacher so <SS> @@ </SS> yeah but that's when i first became aware of it <S1> uh-huh </S1> so yeah i just whenever in doubt always use ms hopefully nobody will get offended unless they really like the fact that they're married or not married so @@ </NS13>
<S1> mhm i i was thinking about how would i say it in finnish er i would feel really funny if i called somebody a mrs or a miss , sort of titles are in not that common use , <FOREIGN> rouva </FOREIGN> or <FOREIGN> neiti </FOREIGN> , seems a bit old-fashioned you know yeah </S1>
<S9> but i remember the battle law battle er as well er but in czech republic because er all women er er family names are ended with -ova so when er her husband is for example havel she is havlova <S1> mhm-hm </S1> or er trasenenk trasenkova and er women didn't want to have such er suffix because er they didn't like it i mean sometimes it it was really funny because er some names are for example blomberg so it's blombergova and it was you know funny and er they er they won it they actually and eventually they won it and now it is , it is very common to put -ova er in the end of the name but er it isn't illegal just to devoid it </S9>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah </S1>
<S2> but er don't you have the same in polish as well that you have -ska and -ski <S9> [er] </S9> [that's] it's <S6> [english] </S6> [for] [are they same (name)] </S2>
<S9> [no not ev-] i mean some some names yes <S2> [yeah] </S2> [but for] example my name <S2> [yeah] </S2> [my family] name is <NAME S9> <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and it's as well female <S2> [oh oh] </S2> [and] as well male and sometimes of course we have for example er names like novinski <S2> yeah </S2> and it's him <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] novinska <S2> that's [her] </S2> [and it's] her so there is a difference but it's i think it's because of our conjugation more than er because of gender , <SU> mhm-hm </SU> i don't know how do you think <NAME S3> </S9>
<S3> er yeah it's usually i don't know i haven't thought about it but you have you like you said already you have different names and this (xx) that are ending -ski and -ska that's [think (xx)] </S3>
<S9> [yeah mhm-hm because for example] some er there are very common names ended with er -ich for example adamkievich and it's adamkievich him and her so </S9>
<S2> and the- these names er -ski and -ska are kind of aristocratic [names or] </S2>
<S9> [er it] yes yeah er [the origins are aristocratic] </S9>
<S2> [okay so that that's why] </S2>
<S9> and maybe that's why <S2> mhm-hm </S2> that is true @@ </S9>
<S6> in germany we got this problem with double names i don't know it's maybe in italy or now in spain it's it's this </S6>
<S2> oh no we we don't have this this spanish thing of er three [four surnames] </S2>
<S6> [well if you] if you get married er , what which names were was taken then and a lot of [i don't know] </S6>
<S2> [well] we have this </S2>
<S6> erm mhm there's a there are some ugly very ugly names (xx) explain this @so@ </S6>
<SS> [(xx) (for example)] </SS>
<S6> [erm if if a if er if a] woman wants to take both or a man i don't know as i i've never </S6>
<SU> [a lot of er (xx)] </SU>
<S6> [well maybe this is] this is er an old stereotype that a woman have to take the man's name er i don't know please </S6>
<S2> i i have just discovered that in the north of italy if if in a married couple erm the woman is the richest one they commonly call the man with the surname of the of her his wife you know but that's i it just it's considered that this man is not enough man <SS> [mhm yeah] </SS> [you know like er] not just saying oh yeah because he he has not much money so the real the real man is her is she not him so </S2>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S7> we he- we had this case where's a friend of mine married and these er erm she was from this border to slovenia and her his name was in her language slovenia a bad word <SS> [@@] </SS> [so for her it wasn't] possible to get his name because then it was not but it was a bad name like <FOREIGN> vih- vihtu </FOREIGN> or something like that in europe in finnish so they decided that he should take her name and then in our choir because it was our they were they are singing in the ch- same choir than me then every man said oh now mr entzine @because he@ he now er changed his name and everybody made jokes on him so it it's really like that that it's not very common to take the name of the woman and you make jokes of it <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] in this case it was because of , because of the fact otherwise he would she would take have taken his name </S7>
<S1> mhm [yes] </S1>
<S11> [but it's] possible to take to take er </S11>
<S7> both names </S7>
<S11> to take both names or to take the ma- the name name of the man or the name of the women <SS> mhm </SS> so yeah </S11>
<S15> or to keep the names </S15>
<NS13> [yeah] </NS13>
<S11> [yeah] or that everybody has its own name </S11>
<S2> [in i-] </S2>
<NS13> [take back] your own name </NS13>
<SS> @@ (xx) </SS>
<S2> i- in italy you can't if you if you have a child with someone you er and you are married you can't decide to give the surname of the mother to the child [it has to have] </S2>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S9> [but i think it's the same in poland] </S9>
<S6> the the child child is to decide </S6>
<S11> if you are if you are married no </S11>
<SS> [@@ (xx) yeah you can't choose] </SS>
<S11> [yeah i think it has this] that if the child is born it gets the name of the man and i think later it can decide er but i think at at first it gets the if they are married and if they are not married it gets the name from the mother </S11>
<S7> (perhaps) like this is </S7>
<S11> yeah but <S3> [i think it] </S3> [but if] if you are not married the child always get the name from the mother , maybe you can you can tell them you want to have the name of the father but er for example my parents are not married and i have the name of my mother i don't know </S11>
<S4> yeah but if the if they are married [it's a] </S4>
<S11> [i- if] they are married then it's the name of the father , i think </S11>
<NS13> i don't have personal experience with this @@ but in the united states i think erm if you're an unwed mother and you have well yeah if you're an unwed mother then erm you can choose to either have your baby like have your last name or the father's i i think it's your choice , so </NS13>
<S1> what about we've we've talked about groups before and for example in spanish if there's a group with 20 women and one man then you refer to this group as masculine because there's one man and it would be terrible @to do it@ the other way around is this the case in do you have this in italy </S1>
<S2> that i- if in a i- i- er i don't [understand (xx)] </S2>
<S1> [for example if there's a] </S1>
<S11> for example this group @@ </S11>
<S2> in this group we have just one man </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [two] </SU>
<S2> [oh yeah i'm sorry] and then if er it it would be yeah well it would be mhm it would be yeah yeah it would there would there would students <S1> yeah </S1> yeah er and that's the word students it's <S1> [masculine (xx)] </S1> [it's masculine word yeah] because when there's mixed then it's the masculine that prevails </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm , so it's somehow you can see that , there is a division in any case if even though in the language there isn't a an article or suffixes or something like that there you can find such divisions in finnish and in other languages also , and sort of this . we use the language as a tool but somehow it's it's more than that 'cause in these words there are always some other things attached or some history that affects it so it's not that simple (actually) yeah </S1>
<S3> erm i feel that it's also quite i- interesting for example er meanings of death because in poland in polish it's er the death or she er it's always connected with a woman and in german i tho- i think it's <FOREIGN> der tot </FOREIGN> <SU> mhm-hm </SU> so actually it's man and you are usually afraid of death so if you connect it with woman it's something different than if you connect it with men and usually you if you see paintings or any erm yeah actually paintings or pictures you always have death as a woman in poland and in germany <FOREIGN> der tot </FOREIGN> erm it was [(xx)] </S3>
<S2> [well in italy] in italy too maybe it's a catholics [thing] </S2>
<S3> [could] be also <SU> yeah </SU> (xx) </S3>
<S11> but yeah i think in all these er southern eur- or all in these romanic languages it's female as well but it's for example it's er [(xx)] </S11>
<S2> [well in in lat-] in latin it's it's it's a [female word] </S2>
<SS> [yeah] mhm-hm </SS>
<S11> yeah but i think it's the same with moon and the sun <SU> mhm </SU> it's er always like the sun is male and the moon is female but in german it's the other way around we have <SU> mhm </SU> erm the moon is male and the sun is female but i think it's the only language where it's this this way around </S11>
<S9> but in polish you have moon and er er and er mhm er sun er as well you know female er male male sorry <S11> both </S11> both <S11> [ah] </S11> [both] of them </S9>
<S1> in spanish it's (the same idea) , so it's quite funny how i know ther- maybe there are different sort of stories or myth myths behind these conventions why is the sun male or a female in in some cases with somehow it's , er sort of in this sort of polar opposites that everything can be divided in two and the masculine and the feminine are the opposites (try to work) from that . we'll try and talk a little about the gender difference , erm we have come to that already . so we've talked about masculinities and femininities and men and women and it's easy to put , masculinity and femininity in the other ends of of the same line but it's not that easy if you st- think about life in practice and what what are the limits and restrictions and and when it is when is it allowed to do this or that and what is and in different cultures what is er considered to be appropriate for a man or appropriate for a woman so i'm ag- again referring to your story when really talked about the division of labour actually in the household that <S3> mhm-hm </S3> the male went into the coal mine and then the women did all the chores at home er there's this strict division there , and also , you talked about this sort of that for women this traditional way what that there was the kitchen the children and and the church <S3> [yes] </S3> [was] sort of their their environment and then there was something else for the for the men what they should do to be like accomplish their <S3> [mhm] </S3> [manhood] in their lives what was [that] </S1>
<S3> [but] er actually i know erm it's common as a saying in poland that you er men should have a son er build a house and plant a tree </S3>
<S9> yeah </S9>
<S7> yeah we got the same thing </S7>
<S9> to be a real man </S9>
<SU> yeah </SU>
<S1> do you have this sort of <SU> yes </SU> expressions </S1>
<NS13> i've never heard anything like that </NS13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<SU> and it should be a boy the child </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> so it somehow have to show so so some sort of an achievement that you do these things and then you're [you're reasonable yeah] </S1>
<S3> [yeah but it's not so strict] it's just <S1> yeah </S1> kind of saying or (xx) </S3>
<S1> yeah yeah sort of an ideal perhaps </S1>
<S11> there are some countries where it's really a problem (you know) they have to have a son (xx) </S11>
<SS> (xx) </SS>
<S1> yeah you mean like for example in china where you are not actually allowed to have only one child and they would prefer prefer it to be a it be a man and when in the culture it's thought that it's the man that takes a er takes care of the mhm parents when they're old so yeah </S1>
<S8> it's kinda horrifying to think that in some areas in china there's a very unnatural high percentage of male children <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so there's something clearly something has been done so that's kind of <SU> [yeah] </SU> [horrifying] to think about it </S8>
<S1> @that's actually@ quite terrible erm [er yeah] </S1>
<NS13> [yeah erm] in india as well er i have a good friend who i grew up with and erm well like in middle school we were best friends and she was adopted from india and she had just been abandoned at a hospital in calcutta her parent like her mom had her and left <S1> [mhm] </S1> [(as though)] yeah there were a lot of peop- like a lot of girls adopted <S1> mhm-hm </S1> from india in my area just like with the same story </NS13>
<S1> [mhm mhm-hm] </S1>
<S5> [yeah i think it's yeah] it's quite a bit erm or the family is always not very happy if she gets er b- er if it gets a er female baby 'cause er when they get married they have to take all the expenses <SS> [yeah mhm-hm] </SS> [that's why they are like] oh girl [and they] </S5>
<S11> [and there] is one country i don't know i don't which but there's one country where the family of the man has to give lots of things to the family of with the girl so they want to have girls and but i can't remember but there is one country (xx) asian or arabic [(xx)] </S11>
<S1> [@i@] i think there are a lot of different traditions (xx) i read somewhere what's the thing er i don't remember which country but it was like this that , er you give something with the bride er sort of money but the other family has to give something too though it's sort of both have have has to give something , and when er talking about this gender difference thing it's a bit difficult , when in finnish we only have one word for when we talk about sex difference or gender difference we have only one word and it means both how how to work with this 'cause , in english we have two words , so in tradins- traditionally this difference has been divided into these two perspectives so the sex difference being a concept used to define the biological male or female sex . and somehow this thinking that er , different chromosomes mean different behaviour and that's sort of the end of story that biology is the the finishing of all . well , and then when we talk about gender difference it's usually talked in terms of cultural differences between this femininity and masculinity , how both the gender is seen socially in in our working lives private lives what it is how it's represented in literature film , other (xx) and so on . and i guess you could have a lo- huge , debate on on this sex or gender difference and when you you talk about what but i'd er think for us it's more useful to concentrate on the latter one and we shall we talk about gender difference that's the main focus , and i was a bit er not well not amazed but a bit er , baffled when some of you when you wrote er about your interests in in at the beginning of the course that you would like to know , about the real gender differences of men and women , and that's a really difficult one , 'cause i i don't think at least i don't have a such a fon- mhm answer to tell what's this is masculine and this is sort of feminine and that's close the book on that </S1>
<S2> what er i- i <S1> mhm </S1> i can't understand what what what does it mean what is er real differences between women and men are is it that they were asking for er er is it the gender difference er er cultural difference or a biological difference was is this the question </S2>
<S1> er could be it's one way of seeing it </S1>
<S2> or other one [what] </S2>
<S1> ['cause i] i i can't tell 'cause that's sort of what people asked in <S2> [yeah] </S2> [what are] the real <S2> [yeah] </S2> [differences] between men and women , and what is real @and what is not it's@ <S2> [okay] </S2> [certainly] it depends on the contexts context </S1>
<S4> but i but i think i heard i don't know several meanings er but these differences (xx) it's changes it's i think it's a very personal protes- process <S1> [mhm] </S1> [to] what to think about </S4>
<S1> yeah and somehow we have to , we have to deal with these sort of in some ways that there okay they could there are probably some differences but er like how strong they are and how we are to deal with them in in in our everyday lives in in in in politics and making laws or something like that , that , somehow is it's easy to try and make these okay this is the feminine style and this is the masculine style and these are the areas that belong to this or that , but then if you make such sort of stripped categories you also put people in them and <SU> yeah </SU> sort of restrict what they can be and how they can act and what they can do with their lives to be accepted socially or , career wise or otherwise , so we can sort of try to have an understanding about masculinity or femininity or how it's presented actually , well we can't claim to know what the real difference is . so i just think for myself that i have to be in in general people should be careful when using these sort of categories the well categorising is our way of thinking of course but sort of trying to be sensitive , to the language use and in interaction , and in some linguist linguistic research the problem has been actually that when you're using these sort of categories and trying to find what is female what is masculine , it's sort of a risky thing . you come up with </S1>
<S3> er but then you think that it's also difficult and risky if you don't see differences for example if you require from a man something that he's not able to do and the same er with the women </S3>
