<TITLE: Governing "Good Governance" in Developing Countries
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: economics and administration
DISCIPLINE: management studies
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS050
NOTES: session includes presentations CPRE05G/I/J, very poor sound quality, therefore only partly transcribed

RECORDING DURATION: 71 min 16 sec

RECORDING DATE: 9.11.2004 & 11.11.2004

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 14

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bengali; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

BS2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bengali, English (Bangladesh); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Nepali; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bengali; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Efilo, Igbo, Yoruba, Hausa (Nigeria); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Twi (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Kikuyu (Kenya); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish (Mexico); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S19: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S20: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>



<PRESENTATION CPRE05A by BS2, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<BS2> <START MISSING> open for questions now , and i did put some very sort of vital or key questions , one is that is democracy the precondition for economic growth in bangladesh , does an islamic nation er which is not otherwise er (terribly) very strong , means to (xx) </BS2>
<S3> is there (xx) sort of er that (xx) government er democracy in governance </S3>
<BS2> well i i'm not basically very much (xx) about democracy , what i feel is that we in like we in developing countries we are , we should really look into very seriously about the <PEOPLE ENTERING> welcome democracy i have feeling and i strongly commit to that that typical west (xx) programmes were not necessarily good for democratic development in bangladesh nor we have er any any sort of western models but we have looked for a democracy which is culturally convincing now i might sound a bit (despairing) there if you look into the cultural foundation based on what they call multi- (xx) we are working (xx) but we don't (xx) now we have looked for some kind of formation of the government which would be very much home-grown and culturally acceptable than that of the standardised western democracy (xx) power i don't know we have looked for it and that (type) now as you , i (xx) that some of you know that we we now (consciously) have devised a s- completely innovative term we call it caretaker government , now when one regime finishes its term and the (xx) have by complete new neutral caretaker government whereby chief justice of the country he issues office of the permanent (xx) he issues office of the prime ministership and he founds it on on (xx) for three months and ensure a free fair election and as i said earlier it's very much a home-grown method now this is what we (are seeing) fo- for my understanding for that matter that democracy has to be the structure (xx) it has to be very much culturally sensitive and home-grown and i don't know what form it should be in east (there's a genuine) new form but bottom line is pure western modern democracy will not (xx) <P:10> yes please </BS2>
<S4> er i'm <NAME S4> basically i'm from bangladesh now i study in helsinki university of technology i've one like question of like your comments like you mentioned about (strategy) focus on (home-grown) governance you mentioned like need to develop integrated policies concerning human development of the poor what does it mean by integrated policies </S4>
<BS2> now you must have seen their four four different clusters of states <S4> yeah </S4> what is what we have done we have emphasised either of those clusters , now (xx) that will again lead us to different projects my prediction is that you must have policies from all the four clusters and beautifully synchronise and live with each other than that of doing (xx) that's what i mean integrated there must be these are all complementary and some of the projects will be overlapping so you have to have develop projects on these four cluster (xx) with having a strong link with each of those four (xx) </BS2>
<S4> thank you </S4>
<BS2> thank you </BS2>
<S5> well <COUGH> i don't think there is more to add to this rather excellent lecture of yours erm only one thing perhaps appears to me , er when we look at the process of globalisation and we look still at it as , an evolution of what we once knew to be international , er , we look again at this in different theories of democracy we look at theories empirical for example we would take the compact variables level of of the (xx) political rights civil (xx) i think this you really did well to reduce to a more practical level whereby we could see its connection to governance from the case study you quoted from (xx) world bank or some (original) source er now why don't we , try to actually track down , the complicated status of governance , when for example looked at from the point of view of developing countries at least certain developing countries , why don't we take the case of international relations , anyway this reveals itself through the activities of NGOs but of course the NGOs could be local and (xx) and this i suppose should introduce us to a consciousness which leads us subsequently to take upon the idea of critical theory but of course i'm definitely (seeing) adding a structural presentation and and i think i have to but probably we could propose a (xx) of critical theory linking the paradoxes [of] <BS2> [sure] sure </BS2> liberal democracy and beware for example agencies take up these because it is the way they take up these that sort of systematically kills this idea of critical theory </S5>
<BS2> i agree i think it is a very very important what you ask for , now we have been wondering now if i may erm be allowed to say a little bit about it er what happened in malaysia er you must have heard of malaysia its vibrant economy they they were colonised by the british until 60s and we got we got our independence (still in) late 40s now malaysia , i won't take singapore (xx) malaysia (xx) and we did notice that malaysia evolved that old democratic structure completely dividing from the western (xx) model and it was a some kind of a blending of strong civilisation at the same time this is malaysia at the same time they brought in a very aggressive human development policies i mean (xx) and so on these are unique to malaysian only and they were being cursed by the our northern northern developing partners as well as (xx) now malaysia has completely moved out from that level of (xx) and it has gone way up and they have pretty big challenge (xx) and perhaps you know that in in the 80s malaysia used to pro- er propagate a concept they call it look-east-policy in other words they were looking at japanese models and that and that worked for malaysia and i mean japanese model basically (their old) democracy except the constitution of course is empowered by the management but they do run this system in very much in the old cultural (xx) that idea was (xx) from malaysia then comes (<NAME>) as you perhaps know (<NAME>) was (xx) and there were er there were jokings on (xx) that who is in the government now because every general has (xx) to be the er leader and there were so many military coup encountered in in in in thailand in the 70s now then all of a sudden in the 80s thais started looking into some indigenous (xx) and they divide their constitution and (property) in the whole of the land so i i'm trying to say that the time has come i'm not fully shutting the door towards a northern model i would like to go to the one which is acceptable to us and then have a critical look into it and try to devise a (xx) than that of (xx) </BS2>
<S5> yes er that brings me to concretise what i actually (xx) well in trying to look at the african situation comparatively i think i've come also to nearly a similar conclusion that you reached , namely the idea isn't to ignore the essence of irrationality behind the idea of democracy that there should be a room you (have reached) this concept according to situations according to the situations in africa and i suppose that's probably an important factor </S5>
<BS2> i agree i agree with you </BS2>
<S1> then okay i think we have to get into the next (lecture) <P:16> <NAME BS2> thank you so much for your presentation and i'm sure that er you could talk to him after the seminar if there's er informally if there are any questions to ask for <NAME BS2> er we'll be going to the next presentation by professor <NAME S6> i mention few words about him that he is the professor of local governance here in the university of tampere and has been engaged in a in the e-governance of government (xx) namibia and other countries and most importantly he's coming out with an encyclopaedia of electoral governance and earlier to that he he published a book on on er e-governance so welcome and so his presentation will be for five 20 minutes 25 minutes followed by the questions and answers later </S1>
<S6> er thank you very much i just wonder if you're going to faint if you don't get some fresh air , could you for a while open the windows somewhere if that's possible </S6>
<S1> i could from this side </S1>
<S6> yeah </S6>

<PRESENTATION CPRE05B by S6, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<APPLAUSE>
<S1> now if you have questions </S1>
<S5> <COUGH> er professor <NAME S6> would you please be kind enough to er really elaborate on your concept of critical mass in the process of in- intergovernmental transformation and <COUGH> and er i would like to have in defining of this critical mass <S6> mhm-hm </S6> you'll please remember the preceding lecture the lecture we had because and what came out of that lecture in terms of the difficulties and overlappings that definitely come in the case when the result is of course defining (xx) what we expect and please actually tell (xx) empirically also on this same concept of E- er democra- government E- erm er governance and transformation </S5>
<S6> thank you for for reminder professor <NAME S5> . any other comments </S6>
<P:04>
<S1> no , okay so we ask then (xx) thank you so much , so we have [then] </S1>
<S5> [excuse me] please </S5>
<S1> erm [(xx)] </S1>
<S5> [excuse me] please <NAME S1> er well in that case because i won't get some comments on this er you know critical mass well then it seems er er professor <NAME S6> is perhaps a bit busy now i'd just like to make mention of a few things here you see er science of (xx) is a very (xx) thing and we welcome all the options i mean and the process is useful but let me just add er one thing here namely that erm er we have talked about e-democracy we've talked about a nordic (xx) in er göteborg well the quality of governance er <COUGH> but then next we turn to e-governance e-democracy er we've seen e-democracy in terms of applicational e-technology er in the US in these (present) days of the el- electoral experiences and so the critical mass here is a factor i don't know how you all respond to that but i think it sounds us to all well because we are already there and in there is something (xx) and we cannot le- let that knowledge is not (xx) fair and helpful to the world if we are all going to (xx) so the idea of er er er e-governance (xx) i also know that e-democracy is on-going as a project in holland some finnish er university (xx) so the issue here is probably er we have good models from the west extremely nice models but that's because of the level of the society <S6> mhm </S6> that e-technology and and e-governance could also mean transferring power to elites and that is probably not able to tell us enough about the process of devolution because devolution of power when we take off the masks so erm er the the process should go on probably a little bit more er definition and focus on second problems bringing the problems to light it might help the process to succeed that's just the (political climate) </S5>
<S6> very good point thank you </S6>
<S1> this point would be (xx) </S1>
<S6> (xx) </S6>
<S1> yeah okay so er , now the lunch break there are lunches that are available here in almost every university building here in attila downstairs and (xx) and then the main building and pinni A and pinni B , and the following seminar will begin at two o'clock in building pinni B and er the hall number is on the programme pinni one one zero zero so by then enjoy your lunch </S1>
<TRACK CHANGE>

<PRESENTATION CPRE05C, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S5> well then , <COUGH> <NAME> has presented her paper and er i said earlier that's a pity that er well we have the paper (xx) all sorts of characterising (views) so that you could make productive and informed comments that is i think a brilliant er er brilliantly written paper and i think she deserves more (xx) to contribute but then please i don't need to say that the floor is open to you intuitively common sense anyhow you can contribute , if you have questions , or (xx) like this we'll have few minute's discussion (probably) because it's not of course (my duty) here that i should summarise (xx) it's up to you and your response . any comments (xx) . this partnership is very contemporary theme in this yes please </S5>
<S8> could we do something with the voice before the next because i didn't hear a a thing about this because i- it's the voice is coming from behind the janitors help with the voice so that's the better mic to speak with <S5> oh </S5> i'm i'm not sure if it's if it's only my place that </S8>
<S5> well i haven't been able to (xx) pause so if you hear me please [do you] <SU> [ah] yes mhm-hm </SU> uh-huh er so er can you (xx) mhm would anyone like to comment her paper <SU>  pardon </SU> comments <P:06> <COUGH> well i think er we shall be moving on to the next paper the next presenter whose theme is erm well <COUGH> victims of policies experiences of disabled people in central asia i know this is going to be also interesting theme er (i think) er i think er someone just said that you would like to <S9> [ah] </S9> [would] like to use use er [(xx)] </S5>
<S9> [could you kindly] then help me with the slides </S9>
<S5> slides </S5>
<S9> yes , please @@ </S9>
<S5> i also suppose that if you can hear (you) without (xx) so anyone can say to you if that doesn't work so that (xx) </S5>
<P:09>
<S9> er i will be very happy to send you my paper , so if you would like to get hold of the paper by e-mail please write down your name and e-mail address or then put your calling card please thank you </S9>

<PRESENTATIONS CPRE05D-F AND DISCUSSION FROM 20.00 MIN TO 47.20 MIN NOT TRANSCRIBED DUE TO POOR SOUND QUALITY>


<PRESENTATION CPRE05G by S15>


<PRESENTATION CPRE05H by S16, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S3> questions , maybe in er (xx) in particular this is er er er (xx) development please . yeah </S3>
<S17> yeah you you you were you were saying that er erm there there's no universal path to to development and therefore what would be the role of the er development and and development cooperation in the south and obviously today that er programme (xx) development for the south has been pursued using an (open) approach to development <S16> [mhm-hm] </S16> [because] it had been (xx) so what <S16> [mhm] </S16> [would] be the appropriate er for for the south do you think that some of those would develop their own paths <S16> [mhm] </S16> [and] obviously you you also say that er it has to be somehow societal culturally contextualised so obviously then , in africa or latin america and and south asia then , what what kind of er approaches do you see emerging or should emerge in those kind in those contexts </S17>
<S16> mhm it's hard to say erm because er when i when i (studied) these theories without them i noticed that there always the same trend and er then i was expecting that maybe when i go further that there is some kind of a more south-oriented theory coming up but then there wasn't really a one that that i would have been satisfied with but i don't have answer to your question i don't know er </S16>
<S17> can you post- ca- can you postulate er if you look <S16> [@@] </S16> [at the er policy] look at the er the the the newly industrialised countries like taiwan and singapore or hong kong they they were able to do that miracle <S16> mhm-hm </S16> the world bank called it a miracle industrialisation of those countries it was <S16> [mhm-hm] </S16> [totally] un- unprecedented <S16> [mhm] </S16> [so] to speak , so that was not a path that was pursued in the er the development in the north so <S16> [mhm-hm] </S16> [to speak] so they have their own path <S16> mhm-hm [exactly] </S16> [and] and latin america tried an other path <S16> [mhm-hm] </S16> [that] you you all know that is equally successful so <S16> mhm </S16> what would be your postulation for an african [scenario for example] </S17>
<S16> [@@] mhm i see that the erm in my opinion that the indigenous ideas are important because they are the erm because the people who are living in that culture and in that society they know what is the best and and n- not someone from north who is not up-brought in that society or or [that culture but] <SU> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </SU> yeah i don't know maybe somehow these indigenous ideas should be supported a bit more because i'm sure that there are many indigenous ideas how to develop a (special) one society but , yeah i don't know i'm maybe being too idealistic @@ </S16>
<S17> well that's like , probably erm you say it's very particularistic the er indigenous path so it <S16> [mhm-hm] </S16> [cannot be] (xx) a- achieved <S16> [mhm mhm] </S16> [so so] but you do agree that there is a flawed approach to to development cooperation today [or] </S17>
<S16> [mhm] mhm i think so yeah mhm-hm </S16>
<P:14>
<S3> so if there are if there are no any more questions then er i thank you <NAME S16> for a good presentation er , then we have er </S3>

<PRESENTATION CPRE05I by S18>

<APPLAUSE>
<S3> <NAME S18> thank you for your (nice work) , so er any questions er the floor's open to make any kind of any comments if you have anything you need to ask </S3>
<S19> probably this is , m- more or less it's the comment i really liked the presentation because it was quite logical and mhm well- well-structured and but it's very (you can call it a) contemporary issue because the world the world is merging into bigger markets and the countries are uniting as for america as for the countries of european union as for the countries of the former USSR as for south east asia so the question (xx) was really er if it's possible now but the only thing i'm not sure of is that er there won't be any distinction between the countries that are the present members of NAFTA so i mean canada mexico and the united states and the other countries which are going to be the members of the FTA so its impact mhm so for example brazil and other w- less developed countries are more interested in developing this FTAA agreement er with the developed countries so i think it's like the course the future course it may cause problems in the development of this agreement </S19>
<S18> er yeah well actually this free trade area of the americas is more er impulsed by the US and brazil right now has taken this </S18>
<DISC CHANGE>
<S18> taken this position to have more members within his er , within this within MERCOSUR and MERCOSUR tends to a common market but these members are not er these these countries are not members or associates so it could be more instead of erm gaining its objective as a common market it could gi- it could go a little bit towards more a free trade area and lose this high er objective that it's seeking </S18>
<S3> please </S3>
<S17> well so you you actually see that there can be and there will be probably competition between these er common markets and and in the FTA and NAF- and NAFTA i mean how do they integrate how do they some countries probably are going to ben- benefit more than others with these common markets and so my question was you know what kind of conflicts do you anticipate or what can be anticipated between these common markets different common markets and the FTAA and the others and er well i had another question because you you mentioned that in 1990 there were two developed countries er i didn't hear you sa- you mention which ones those are </S17>
<S18> oh canada and the US </S18>
<S17> oh , right </S17>
<S18> yes erm in this free trade area of the americas there are 34 countries participating and cuba is not a member but is also included in the negotiations and out of these 32 countries two are developed and that's the US and canada er and towards your other question that what i could say to the future i i can't say much because i have not i'm not a specialist in this i have i er just read er what i have picked up from lectures and erm what is happening at the actual point is that there is no agreement and that that brazil is interested more in er what is the south to unite the south and not interested that much in the free trade area but in a way i er consider this erm to me it's it's not er this free trade area i think with with the brazil position in my my my proper opinion i do not think it's bad because i think they are seeking more for these developing countries first then to get and then to come to this er this continent agreement and i think that is more important because erm first to have an er equal equal a team to then encounter a high developed country </S18>
<S3> yes </S3>
<S20> could you give us c- some perspective on er the comparison between the EU as an economic as an economically integrated region and latin america because i think some of us may have in our mind like , E- EU may be a me- much more progressed area like is there a common currency is there free flow of of goods and human capital like where are they in that development process as compared to EU </S20>
<S18> well these (four) regions i have mentioned are not er they are seeking this common market but they have not obtained this common market yet and they have not obtained it because they do not have this equal tariff this external tariff erm and that's the factor to be a common market they do for example MERCOSUR and the andinian community can have people coming and going and they do not have to have their visa just like here but erm but they do not have this external tariff so they are not a common market yet </S18>
<P:06>
<S17> well i have another point or or observation rather that i think could be mentioned towards the , (affecting) some countries like brazil one of the biggest problems is actually the new policy so you have er you know the gap brazil has one of the 10 largest GNPs in the world and yet it's probably the er most unequal country so you have a serious problem with that within the policy that's an issue rather than (you know) distribution of wealth , they have enormous wealth and because of those (xx) this is with- without social policy then you can see it in big er and in advanced economies so </S17>
<S18> yes that's true there are within these latin american countries there's polarisation of er very very rich and very very poor people and this distribution is not erm equal to all so yes these latin american countries have this polarisation of of er money </S18>
<P:09>
<S3> so i think that if there are no more comments on this paper er , i thank er <NAME S18> for a very good presentation and i also thank the floor , er very good pertinent questions thank you </S3>
<APPLAUSE>

<PRESENTATION CPRE05J by S17>

<S17> and er i'll welcome any questions from the floor </S17>
<S15> yeah you did talk about the health insurance and most (xx) we have healt insurance (xx) er ghana where i come from has started evolving their health insurance but you said there's opposition , don't you think it would be more wise to educate the citizen (xx) their opposition view about the health insurance </S15>
<S17> well absolutely yes absolutely er it's true ghana actually have er a similar kind of a system <S15> [yeah] </S15> [to (this one)] system i know that to an extent it had been implemented not to an extent it is successful it also exists in senegal and some and some in the other [countries] </S17>
<S15> [because] of no no education on the citizens now they are (suddenly) (xx) beginning to agree with the policy <S17> mhm-hm  </S17> so i think maybe you can add (xx) </S15>
<S17> well that's true that's true but you see now the regional opposition is from the private health industry itself rather than from the population obviously the population has a lot to benefit you see many of those er developing countries in africa actually use today more than is needed per capita for health for each person the same as in kenya i mean we use over probably six dollars more than is needed for already u- for this health care for each er resident the problem is that you have a huge out of pocket expenditure so obviously this system would be appealing to a lot of people the problem is of course there are a lot people so can they afford (xx) how do you get them to actually pay er into this system so you need a lot of education and and i think er maybe a lot of (xx) work could be done by NGOs to educate the population in this case and to somehow put down the policies for the health insurance , the private health industry that are opposed to it (xx) er all those er you know the largest portion of the population so </S17>
<S3> are there any more questions <P:08> er it seems there is no any more questions so i thank doctor <NAME S17> for the very er systematic and thorough er presentation over here er maybe we <APPLAUSE> er (xx) this session i've er er finished from the chair i want to share some a few words er first of all er <NAME> has presented on the (xx) development in the light of riggs' prismatic society er riggs himself in the late 70s er said well er there is no as such pure society existing in the world or there is no prismatic society but he tried to categorise to er the symptoms or the features er especially in advancement of society er still er there is some s- er some kind of (xx) er i er er is in my university in nepal where we still have been teaching the theory of of prismatic the other one developed by riggs and i found er in even in finland er there are some scholars who still have been looking er the relevance of this er theory er in developing (xx) and see er i i i i really found that the relevance still is (xx) er with developing countries anyway there is some community (xx) developed country and the society has (started) nepal (just has started) (xx) so i thank er <NAME> , similarly the second presenter er . <NAME S18> here has presented about this current agreement and naturally this er (xx) in such forum in (xx) agreement er all participant participating countries should have gathered up equal benefit however depending upon their level of governance depending upon their level of bargaining power as er many poor economy countries ne- not yet equal share in such er er in in such in in in such cooperations and collaborations er though er er regional integration have been helping the bargaining power of in the neighbouring participating countries and so she er has presented very nicely i also again thanks thank to er <NAME S18> and lastly doctor <NAME S17> he has presented very much thoroughly about the health care system and the policies that is developed in kenya i think er in developing countries he not only er the the way he presented about the case of kenya er i think it is very much relevant in other developing countries as well in our country also in er er the insurance system and the health care system are the (classical) er er (big challenge) (xx) of this er er er institution in kenya but also because of the how the the system can be implemented er this financial system how to manage those financial financial system how to change the attitude toward the health care system of the people both who are living in poverty both who are illiteracy that's why the the way he has been er doctor <NAME S17> has been er pointing out the challenges (xx) er i hope i think it is significant in other developing country as well that's why i er er er thank doctor <NAME S17> for this very good comprehensive presentation and i i i er thank you to all those who have made comments the er on the issues er presented over here and i thank you okay </S3>
<APPLAUSE>
<S1> we have er some (time) like 20 minutes for general discussion (xx) discuss anything or . like er we we thought that er you have (come far) and if there is any (xx) you want to discuss with or with us or or with anyone so the papers that have been presented over the last three days like i'll be sharing all the papers with you in electronic format that i'll be sending (xx) e-mail er documents and if somebody wants to have it as a paper format just let me know that you know (xx) the cost cost of copying and </S1>
<S17> er i i was wondering i don't know if i'm the only one but er well i wasn't in the seminar yesterday and the day before so er but i'm just wondering the subject of our seminar was well er (you know) governing good governance in developing countries where have we been and and where we're going to have we been able to answer reflectively to these two questions and especially the one where where we're going to so can somebody make some kind of a (xx) or (review) as to what we have probably (gotten) and so where we're going to </S17>
<SU> i don't know er where we are now </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> er so erm basically we we're this this this seminar was a part of the international research project of good governance (xx) here at the university of in tampere and er in terms of this project we'll (xx) much better next (xx) funding from the finnish academy of science then we know where are we going to @@ but as at this moment er (we come to that) (xx) i'm sure that we have lots of other possibilities to cooperate again there is also (xx) projects funded to (xx) issues dealing with good governance and er , problems with or prospects in development progress issues (xx) , er yeah </S1>
<S17> well i can can i say something also that er you know good governance and you know the same question can be asked if you have the governance and and where we're going to with regard to the developed countries as well even finland has the same key question about good governance for example for health care (insurance) policy and it's the same debate for all around (xx) europe where we're going to or what kind of governance do we have in the future er , so that's that's er that's a question that is open not only for the developing countries but for the developed countries as well you know with regards to developing countries i don't know er i don't know if she might comment something in the half-theoretical presentation for for development er you know er i i suppose your presentation didn't refer necessarily to this good governance question er therefore </S17>
<S1> well i'm sure that she did in terms of er the process of development like the turning from tradition to modernisation and it covers all these possible (xx) market economy and all those </S1>
<S16> but i find it important and interesting that good governance is also discussed here in europe and in the european union it's also discussed this european governance is also i think (a thing) <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so it's not just the case or issue in developing countries (xx) and then it makes me wonder if there are good governances and not just one good governance and one [(xx)] </S16>
<S1> [er indeed] in the seminar we have had this session on on on elements of good governance like transparency also (to population) and develop law (xx) and and for example and all all these er but er that's not (xx) good governance like so we we really had discussion on the (this one) like yesterday and today . so any more conclusions concerns about anything , okay well then thank you for joining and we look forward to (xx) </S1>
<APPLAUSE>
