<TITLE: National Forest Programmes in Developing Countries
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: natural sciences
DISCIPLINE: forestry
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD230
NOTES: includes student presentations

RECORDING DURATION: 259 min 3 sec

RECORDING DATE: 18.1.2007

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 19

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 19

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Amharic; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Akan; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

NS10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish, Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Chinese; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Bengali; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

BS17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Twi, English (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Arabic; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S19: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Chinese; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S13> <START MISSING> we have it here or </S13>
<S1> er for instance we can have it here </S1>
<S13> if you can make the the the room bigger for tomorrow <S1> yeah </S1> combine the two rooms or </S13>
<S1> yeah or yeah it's also possible i [can combine] </S1>
<S13> [okay] it's nine o'clock isn't it <S1> yes </S1> tomorrow <S1> yes </S1> quarter past nine </S13>
<S1> yes quarter past nine </S1>
<S13> yes so you will know it tomorrow but it's most likely here the final exam , sorry for the delay (students) but now kindly first introduce yourself er well you erm well you will not pronounce your names because of of certain reasons </S13>
<SU-15> @@ </SU-15>
<S13> we make an exception now you just tell that er as we can see your names are are here already on the screen so don't tell your names we change the rules for today but you can now start an- and start from the from the the the title and then if you like give an g- give a general outline and then go into into business you have a er say maximum of one hour definitely we earlier talked about 45 minutes but you can use up to one hour groups may be smaller or bigger so they also can have different lengths in their presentations but the absolute maximum <SOMEONE ENTERS> welcome and good morning , the absolute maximum is one hour after which we will have discussion and then in that discussion i expect you all to be active come with questions with comments erm and and er relate it to any matter presented and we have the experts here also around who can er participate in the discussion clarify facts if needed and and so on so erm the chair person in each group maybe could introduce it and and then and then start it rolling so please group number one </S13>
<S14> so good morning ladies and gentlemen and welcome to our seminar presentation and our topic's forests and poverty reduction and national forest programmes in poverty reduction strategies and our group includes three members and here's the group leader well you can guess his name @@ and one member and here's an- a member as well so er i will start with the structure of the seminar so our seminar includes six parts i will introduce the first (xx) background and purpose of the study o- of the study and then i will introduce the poverty the definition poverty and er and poverty reduction strategies , and our group leader is going to give you introduction to the contribution of forest sector in reducing poverty and then she's going to this is a little bit difficult to not to @tell you the name@ <SS> @@ </SS> and she's going to going to introduce the linkages between PRS and nationa- national forest programmes and also includes a case study mozambique , and then the recommendations and the references will be given as well so i will first er start with the background and purpose of the study , so as we all probably know that eradication of extreme poverty and er , sorry </S14>
<S13> no don't worry we adjust the lights </S13>
<S14> and hunger is the first of the eight of of the eight millennium development goals incorporated in u- united nations millennium declarations as you can see and er poverty poverty reduction strategies express in the poverty reduction strategy papers are emerging as a broad and erm , and a valuable framework for development planning and implementation , by far they are they are becoming a new business model for the world bank and IMF international mon- monetary fund erm guiding donors' operations and er and offering the potential to focus all all sectors in developing countries on poverty reduction in (xx) MDGS which is which is also for millennium development goals and then forestry sector policies and and er planning need to conform to this framework to contribute er contribute to the MDGS on the other hand to maintain and increase a political priority and financial allocations by governments and international community to the sector so this is basically the purpose of the study but a pur- but er the background of the study but the purpose of the study is to find other linkages between the the national forestry programmes and , and er poverty reduction strategies and also another purpose is to <READING ALOUD> analyse forest sector's current status role of forest and trees for devel- er for different user groups in poverty reduction </READING ALOUD> and the third purpose is to provide recommendations on how to improve the improve the forest sector's contribution . so now let's go to the second part , poverty and poverty reduction strategies so i will start with the definition of of poverty actually there are quite many there are quite many definitions of poverty according to the to the V WB 2001 which is , erm the <READING ALOUD> poverty is defined as pronounced depre- (xx) deprivation of well-being related to lack of material income or con- consumption , low levels of education and er health vul- vulne- vulnerability and (xx) lack of opportunity to be heard and (xx) </READING ALOUD> moreover <READING ALOUD> th- the WB adopted a three-dimensional concept of poverty </READING ALOUD> which is listed as opportunity security and empowerment so <READING ALOUD> oppor- opportunity includes income education and health </READING ALOUD> the security is <READING ALOUD> the risk of people falling below the poverty line or other welfare indicators </READING ALOUD> while the <READING ALOUD> empowerment access and the control over local re- resources public services and influence in local decision-making </READING ALOUD> </S14>
<S13> by the way this is quite important er remember and and look at this this er division into three , actually three sub-concepts here opportunities security empowerment , by the w- and you can also interrupt er the presentation if you want for any any clarification so please remember that , sorry for interruption </S13>
<S14> oh no problem , and <READING ALOUD> poverty alleviation is successful lessening of deprivation of well-being or prevention of increase in depriv- deprivation </READING ALOUD> and er poverty alleviation can be further divided into two parts the first is <READING ALOUD> poverty avoidance of mitigra- mit- mitigation </READING ALOUD> which is fo- er forest resources as safety nets or , or fill gaps for example like providing a source of petty cash , and on the other hand pov- it is poverty elimination which helps which helps </S14>
<S13> i see question marks on your faces , finnish students , petty cash what is that small income petty means small small income small cash income </S13>
<S14> erm poverty elima- elimination is which helps <READING ALOUD> lift out of poverty by providing a source of saving investment accumulation permanent increase in income </READING ALOUD> we're since this since nowadays we are talking about in our topic is talking about is this poverty reduction strategies (xx) forests so here we we introduce this forest-based poverty alleviation according to F-A-O 2003 this is <READING ALOUD> the use of forest resources for lessening of deprivation of well-being temporarily or for good or for food </READING ALOUD> , and then has come to the to the part of poverty reduction strategies i will first give you a brief introduction about the PRS concept and i will go through the the the PRS process and then benefits to the PRS process so actually the PRS concept er was endorsed at the 1999 , wor- er world bank group and er international mone- monetary fund annual meeting which is this concept er was ex- expressed in a PRSPS which is po- er poverty reduction strategies papers and er this PRSPS includes five principles which is <READING ALOUD> country-driven results-oriented comprehensive partnership-oriented long-term focused </READING ALOUD> so actually er country-driven which mean which in- involve broad-based participation by civil society and the private sector in all operational gaps where results-oriented which which means focusing on outcomes that would benefit the poor and a comprehensive which means recognising the multidimensional and nature of poverty and partner partnership-oriented which involves coordinated participation of development partners bi- , bilat- bilateral multi-lateral and non-governmental way and the long-term focused is based er is is a basing is a basing strategy on a long term prospective for poverty reduction , and actually <READING ALOUD> er PRSPS aims to reflect a country's individual circumstances and identify its specific goals and priorities for poverty reduction </READING ALOUD> , and then , is the PRS process the first of the PRS pro- process i would like to introduce the three core elements first one is comprehensi- er -hensive poverty diagnosis and analysis and the second one is <READING ALOUD> focused and cos- costed priority actions over a three-year period for macro-economic structural stru- er structural so- soc- social and sectoral policies as well as programmes and projects under the MTEF </READING ALOUD> MTEF it means the the medium term expenditure framework and the third the the the third core element is <READING ALOUD> appropriate targets and indicators for M and E </READING ALOUD> M and E it it means monitoring and and evaluation in the systems this is the- these are the three core elements for for the process and then i introduce these four four process first one is <READING ALOUD> participatory process designed to improve understanding of poverty issues and build stakeholder support </READING ALOUD> and second one is <READING ALOUD> based on the poverty diagnostic which aims to understand features of poverty and the factors that determine it </READING ALOUD> and third one is <READING ALOUD> focusing on on the definition of of the priority public actions and their inclusion in the public expenditure programme </READING ALOUD> the fourth is <READING ALOUD> result in identification of goals indicators of progress and a monitoring and and evaluation system </READING ALOUD> these are the process and er perhaps you a- also remember this has also mentioned in <NAME S12> 's <NAME S12> 's er introduction about the benefits to PRS process the first benefit is to is the <READING ALOUD> potential of the forest sector to contribute to to poverty reduction is is proper- er properly assessed and tapped </READING ALOUD> and second one is forest sector- sector-related response to the in the in the PRS which are <READING ALOUD> pro- properly formulated including necessary actions at policy institutional implementation levels </READING ALOUD> and this is also based on the sustainable resource management and the third the third benefit is is the <READING ALOUD> close link er linkage to PRS process can sharpen poverty focus in policies actions of of forest sectors </READING ALOUD> so now let's move to the the third part contributions to of forest sector in in in poverty reduction i will give the floor to to our group leader okay thanks </S14>
<S15> well as you know er the the contribution of forest in poverty reduction is is many-fold and i'm just er men- going to mention part of them er the important ones so er let's start with the i- income generation er er th- er the forest can generate them in the forest and forest products can generate the income in two different ways you know the commercial ways and the non-commercial ways and er for the for the for the rural rural poors er the forest (xx) the forest products i mean the wood products and non-wood products are the forest er they get the sawn timber the building materials fibres honey er er medicinal plants and some of the some of the non-timber and timber products er who is provide them income and also provide them opportunity to be employed especially the rural poors and er this is exactly what i mean 15 million people er in the sub-saharan africa do er they earn most of their cash income i mean the cas- their cash income come from from er non-commercial activity of forest and there are of course the commercial activities like er like er involvement of poor people in harvesting processing and transport of food and (xx) forest product and and er eng- er engagement in er small and larger scale forest-based industries i mean forest product these industries and er nature-based (xx) i mean er you know about about the forest-related tourism and so on these these activities also provide er the opportunities for income generation and er in in in south africa and in sub-saharan african region er there are about half a million people who generate their income through this sort of er this sort of activities i mean i mean commercial forest commercial forestry activities <P:05> and then forestry prov- er providing subsistence and reducing vulnerability er especially the poor women the children and poor households er they they they get a a major share of their food and other daily subsistence from the forest hundreds of millions of er poor people in sub- sub-saharan africa and also some of the parts of the developing countries i better say er the most of er most of the developing countries er that they rely heavily on this er on on the forest and forest products for their daily subsistence , er forest also provides some sort of safety net er er some sort of safety net to reduce the vulnera- vulnerability of poor people er against situations like er food scarcity famine er et cetera and then er forest er forest goods er enhance the palatability of the stable diet and also provide some some er pro- forest product also provide er the vitamins and proteins to the to to to the people , er forest is of course a a very very very potential source of energy for the poor people the forest provides a local (xx) such as fuel (ethanol) also raw materials for other fuel for example charcoal er to the to the poor people as well as er to the people to the poor people who are living in the urban areas and suburbias too , er about 70 to 90 per cent of the population in sub-saharan africa depends on er on on charcoal and and and fuel </S15>
<S13> but the share of charcoal can you estimate how much would it be , when you say it mention it first you have the you easily get an idea that that would be a major share but we maybe we can conclude it's about ten per cent of the total in charcoal <S15> okay </S15> well do you agree </S13>
<S15> er actually i don't er i i don't found </S15>
<S13> well let's say about ten per cent <S15> [okay] </S15> [charcoal] 90 per cent is firewood fuelwood is divided into charcoal and firewood </S13>
<S3> m- maybe it varies in different [areas (xx)] </S3>
<S13> [it varies] of course depending on culture depending on place <NAME S3> is an expert on this but but the the global average er for developing countries is around ten per cent </S13>
<S15> okay , okay so i continue and then er are the for- the the the the production i mean er this er the commercialisation of this energy production also provides for example the production transport and sale of charcoal and fuelwood also provide income and and from international (xx) to the poor people especially the poor er the people who live around the forest in or around the forest and then then then comes the agricultural development you know er the the forest forest help to er forest help the agricultural land to be to be fertile by providing the nutrient elements as well as er regulating the water supply i mean the water sha- er er conserving the water shade and then then protecting soil against erosion , and then forest trees and er forest flora and fauna er helps er the forest er the agricultural crop to be pollinated and then and then er providing some regulatory activities er for weed and pest control pest control these actually enhance the crop and livestock production and and and the most important thing most most important contribution of the forest er to the poor people is er in industry 'cause i mean there are in in the area of agricultural development is is er providing this er fodder i mean tree and plant-based fodder manure and pesticides these are very important for the poor people because most of the time they cannot afford to buy the the agri- er the the chemical one so the- somehow they they have they to rely on this er this this low-cost forest-based manure fodder and then pesticides . and then governance so er forestry activities are for example are er er er the community forestry social forestry i mean participatory type of forestry er if if a they (see typically) that they could provide some sort of ownership and management right to the local community so this thing actually help them to be empowered and and and provide also some sort of political capitals and er and also in a way of for for for parti- er for ensuring of er local people's participation in in in forestry activities like commercial er sorry er community forestry social forestry or other type of participatory forestry er also you got to remove some sort of excessive regulations who is actually er actually er that there's regulations who is discriminating against the poor also also also does the same i mean er that er this er this removing this sort of discriminating regulation against the poor help them to be better off in the end and and er there are of course other other other contribution of forest se- forest and forest sector to the poverty reduction and these are er this er aesthetic i mean er amenity benefit for example aesthetic and [culture] </S15>
<S13> [one] question did you have time to read the the the report our own VITRI institute report on public private sector <S15> er </S15> partnership because that would have covered the governance issue very well </S13>
<S15> er not really just i just i just went through i really didn't use that much </S15>
<S13> okay er well that's a sincere answer i would have expected that yes we looked it but only briefly well er good that <SS> @@ </SS> but that erm let me say that is an important source </S13>
<S14> which which one </S14>
<S13> er er th- the number 31 in tropical forestry reports the the yellow book that was circulated here the er partnership between er private and public sector in forestry de- development analysing seven countries seven countries and very much from the governance viewpoint remember that . sorry if i didn't er er tell it earlier that it is an important source but at least now you know </S13>
<S15> okay so forest provides some sort of er amenity benefit for example aesthetic beauties and cultural values which are very important for the rural people and especially important for the indigenous people who live inside the forest , and then let's just say a forest also increase the development potential of the rural areas and decrease the need i mean er , stops or or reduce the flow of this er migration from migration of people from rural area to the urban area for example in in for searching for job er livelihood things et cetera and then also forest constitute important element for heritage and identity for forest communities and many countries as well as you know for example finland is very at least in in in in my part of the country is very popular for its vast forest resort and forest industries so this er the forestry is some sort of identity for finland here in bangladesh . and now i'm i'm moving to another topic of of of this is er the role of forests and trees to different communities and of course er the role of forests is different to different communities for example as is the the the role of forests and trees is is is one for the poor people and it's i mean the rural poor and then it's different to the to the urban people now er we'll see what is the role of forest and trees er to the to the rural people forest is a a for the people especially who are living inside the forest and in and around the forest fore- er forest has is er forest is very important for their social and cultural life er because er especially for the people who live inside the forest they have er they have to depend er they have to they have to rely on the forest heavily er because er they live on hunting gathering and shifting cultivations an- an- an- an- and these sort of activities . and as i said earlier in in the in in the other part there are millions of people who live in in and around the forest area they depend at least partly of , er at least partly for their income and other needs from the forest and this er forest income er as er our past past speaker said er the forest forest provides some sort of petty income i mean er this small income and this income help them to fill the seasonal gaps and also other cash flow gaps and and also help them cope er to cope with the particular expenses or or to respond to the respond to the unusual opportunities for example </S15>
<S13> yeah sorry for interruption this is a very useful word forest-adjacent communities forest-adjacent people so then you need not distinguish between those who live inside the forest or outside forest-adjacent means the population that is benefiting er from the forest and of course the the distance varies typically to a 20 kilometre distance from the forest so you belong to a forest-adjacent community a very useful word , sorry </S13>
<S15> okay so er i was telling about what the forest er what what can they do with the with the income they got they get from the forest for example they can buy the they can buy the s- seeding materials i mean er the the origination material seeds for the next er next season's next season's cropping er er also they can hire the labour for the cultivation and and then er they can they can invest the money they get from the forest to some sort of er trading activities and another thing is that the rural women if if they have er they ha- they have the same access to the forest resources they can also generate the income from the forest product and er and and and and their dependence might be might be might be much more than than tha- than that of the men on on the forestry income . er we are still in still er we are talking about the er the role of forests and trees to the rural poor the forest er can create opportunities for for the for the rural user to be strengthened and and empowered in ma- in managing the forest itself er er the hill community forest in nepal has been a good example of this sort er this er this this this project er the hill community forestry in nepal er has been established in 1978 , what they did actually there they adopted the indigenous management system and land co- control system and er and then the total forest management system so what er th- the impact is that the the communities er er the forest-adjacent communities are are now not only the beneficiary of the forest or or this hill community forestry project they are also the managers of this of this forest </S15>
<S13> could you <NAME S15> mention the or or or at least one reason behind the the the success story in nepal why was it so successful in in nepal , are you familiar with that </S13>
<S15> er okay so b- before before er before launching this project i mean the er before er this hill community hill community forestry they had this er this traditional top-down (infrastructure) er the forestry management system er the forestry official are doing everything but there was no involvement of the local people so er er there was a gap between the between the forestry official and the and then the local people the forestry official are trying to do something but that was anyway not er not compatible with er with the the need and and er with er with th- with the need of the local people so it was somehow not working well </S15>
<S13> yeah you are right and the other reason was that they had the their own er peculiar administration system the <FOREIGN> panchayat </FOREIGN> [system] <S15> [yeah] yeah yeah </S15> and that was it it was already existing and it allowed the forestry er responsibilities to be transferred from the top level to the local level <S15> yeah </S15> a very efficient what they call the <FOREIGN> panchayat </FOREIGN> system <NAME S3> wants to comment </S13>
<S3> has this finnish er forestry master plan finnish founded forestry master plan for nepal changed this system </S3>
<S13> it utilized we could add that it utilized this and and that was part of the success then the f- it fell on other reasons we cannot go into that why why it had problems but when it came to to forest management in the hill region it was a great success in the terri- in the low-lands then they had completely different problems and it one could say it failed <NAME S12> wants to comment </S13>
<S12> er not really , no </S12>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S13> okay but i er but the two reasons as <NAME S15> already mentioned transferring the power from the top to the local level and having a good administration system from the beginning a decentralised administration which they call the <FOREIGN> panchayat </FOREIGN> <WRITING ON WHITEBOARD, P:15> </S13>
<S15> okay </S15>
<S13> yes please kindly continue </S13>
<S15> so er now i- i'm going to tell something about er not not not er the role of the whole forest but some specific trees er i'm using the example of sudan of course they have er we had the the presentation on prosopis species <NAME S3> presented that so i'm just briefly telling about that so sometimes we see a few tree species can bring a huge im- er positive impact of course there are negative impacts and they will be er for a whole region the prosopis you know er is is er an introduced species in sudan in dry land sudan this is this is the best example of this what i mean er it it of course had a huge positive impact </S15>
<S13> by the w- can you hear er maybe you should talk with lou- , louder </S13>
<S15> okay okay er th- the prosopis species er is it it already <SIC> become </SIC> an invasive species in in dryl- in in sudan but still er the beneficiating impact it has cannot be denied er for example the the e- the prosop- prosopis in sh- shelterbelt in the sudanese dry land provide er protection for the villages fields and agricultural fields agricultural fields and irrigation system er from from all sorts of er all sorts of er difficulties of sands and wi- sands and wind-related difficulties and er also this species er helps er helps to keep er the sustainability of the landscape vegetation and an- an- and fauna so er this hel- er this species er help help in in in help to enhance the livestock production and of course er a- also to keep the level of er the human nutrition and then er in addition to these it also provide wood and non-wood non-wood products and services which are very important for the for the for the dry land communities er for for for for er for having some opportunities for them farming communities and cash income . now i come to the role of forests and trees to the urban livelihoods er , the er we have a notion that er the forestry forest and trees are er very important for the rural people they are not so important for the urban communities but of course they are also also very important forest and trees are also very important for the urban urban urban people especially the people who are very poor but er one thing is is one thing is true that er as the as the as the income of the urban people increases er the dependence on on forest and forest products decreases but it's still are the poor people of the urban area depend er </S15>
<S13> <NAME S15> again we have a useful word here peri-urban this you can y- er not just the urban but often we concentrate on on people living in the outskirts of urban a- areas and that we call peri-urban population peri-urban forestry even peri- peri-urban er agriculture that occurs a very important indigenous livelihoods , so </S13>
<S15> okay , and er and er and the low income people they are of course er they of course have to depend on the on the (xx) and fuelwood er fuelwood for the at least to to some level and er the urban people who especially live in the slums and marginalised communities they have to collect they have to continue collect the the the fuelwood er at least to to at least that er at least so that they can have some options to generate their income , and er another thing is that er in the developing countries er the the if if er when the level of urban poverty increases er the demand for the lo- the low cost forest production also also increases , er now here i stop for my part and and now another member of our group is coming to tell you about the linkage between the poverty and national forest programme and of course she will be highlighting a case study from mozambique </S15>
<S16> okay thank you <NAME S15> my name is <NAME S16> and i'm going to analyse a case study in mozambique i hope everybody don't doesn't get too tired to listen to my part , mozambique is a er is a south african country which is quite poor the income for one person per year is only 230 US dollars and 80 per cent of the poor people are living in in the countryside like the urban er areas which means that the the major problem is focused on the rural areas where there might be some forest areas an- and er agriculture remains still the main part for the country's economy which means erm the agriculture is accounting for erm 32 per cent of the GDP 80 per cent of the exports and 70 per cent of the employment and although the country is quite poor the forest er chances are quite abound er which means mhm 78 78 per cent of the land is covered by the natural er vegetation and er 70 per cent of the land has some potential for the erm forest management so it has erm the forest (xx) has some potential for the poverty reduction but do the local people use the forest as er for their daily life the answer is absolute yes and how they use the forest erm they use it as the subsistence of goods like the firewood also a- also they got some fish or some other bush meat as their erm main mhm protein resource </S16>
<S13> sorry <S16> yes </S16> er yeah you heard correctly fish can be a forest product yeah , so that may refers to to natural water courses an- and cultivated fish so there's nothing wrong in defining that also er er a forest-based source although it it often is separated </S13>
<S16> and also the forest provide the material for the con- construction like the house building and also the storage structures agriculture implements boats hunting mhm devices and also the basic means from the forest like the food and me- medical plants fibre and the grazing and except for the subsistence of goods people also get the some forest goods from the forest and they sell them some of the income can be the resource of i- income for them and also sometimes they use the income the money get- er getting from the forest to buy erm buy some machine or er buy some er @goods@ for the agriculture so it also helps for the agricultural im- improvement also some erm indirect benefits like they can erm walk around the forest they get the fresh air so it's the environmental values also for them but how to erm yes we can see the potential of the forestry sector in poverty er reduction but how to prove it that's the question that the national er forestry programme is facing they have several ways to improve it to prove it @@ to prove the contribution of forest to the PRS they collect new information like how many (woods) they er the local people use for their energy er use and er how many food they get from the forest and like this kind of information to improv- to er er to show the linkage between the forest and livel- er erm @livelihood@ and also mhm erm also as a- another important thing is you in- you let people know how people can use the forest and how the forest can benefit people people's life so that the people will er participate in in this programme and choose the (xx) programme and also it's very important thing is the cooperation with other sectors because always the forest sector is below is is under the er natural part sector which gets little money from the government so it's very important to erm to let the government know erm it's very important to improve the forest er sector so the government will get er give the money to this forest sector to improve the forest management and also lobbying is very important so you use a lot of ways you use the media mass to influence people and also the mhm policy makers , and in mozambique there are two programmes related to this erm linkage between the forests and er the the the PRS er the let's talk about oh er the one is action plan for the reduction of absolute poverty the other one is the national agrarian programme let's talk about the first one first @@ okay this er this erm action plan for absolute poverty reduction is actually erm a poverty reduction strategy in mozambique which mhm which contains mhm two main units the one unit says the foundational er foundation areas er which included e- er education health er agriculture good governance and so on and the other areas is complementary area which supports the the main area mhm which includes employment and the business development social action tourism er environment and so on and you can see in the erm complimentary areas like the tourism environment er reduction of natural disaster fishery they are all included in the forest sectors forest areas so we can see the very the importance of forests in this strategy and the other programme is er agrarian programme it contain it's actually part of this programme erm i- actually is the national forest programme in mozambique because er like you can see erm the subst- erm sustainable management of the natural resource they include land forest and the wild life so this part of the programme can be considered as national forest [programme in mozambique] </S16>
<S13> [<NAME S3> has a question or comment to you] </S13>
<S16> yes </S16>
<S3> i just wanted to say that this programme has been planned and implemented by finnish companies together with the mozambique [(xx)] </S3>
<S13> [yeah] </S13>
<S16> [oh] </S16>
<S13> [that's] why we also have chosen mozambique as a as a case because finland is very much involved in development and development erm cooperation in that particular country <NAME S3> is is right er <NAME S2> please </S13>
<S2> erm why do you choose to use the word absolute poverty instead of re- reduction of poverty </S2>
<S16> mhm be- because i- it is actually the erm poverty reduction strategy one of the main strategy in mozambique </S16>
<S13> it it that country ju- just chose that term i think they are may- they may be the only ones who use it <SS> @@ </SS> they just wanted to emphasise poverty and absolute poverty i can't see very much difference i- in in that if you have to take action but just er for em- emphasis maybe it has to do with the language with the portuguese language but i'm not <NAME S12> do you have any information or no it was <NAME S18> who who wanted to comment </S13>
<S18> no thank you not yet </S18>
<S13> <SS> [@@] </SS> [not yet] okay </S13>
<S16> okay , erm i hope i'm not speaking too fast @@ <S13> no </S13> okay erm so erm erm after introducing these two programmes we can see a little bit about the linkage between the er between the forestry sector and the er poverty the poverty reduction structure strategy but but still , oh and er they have some erm common areas because the strategy on objective of increasing of er increasing the contribution of fore- of agricultural sector on on the on on the PR er P-A-R is is er included in the increasing of forest sector because they are er the forest sector some of the er contribution from the forestry sector is included in the er contribution of agricultural sector for the erm for the poverty reduction however and just like i said before the forestry sector is not highly rated in the nation planning and the budget er allocation the root problem is that the true value and the contribution of the forest is not reflected immediately when the government erm get some money er give some money to the forestry sector </S16>
<S13> again <S16> [it takes time] </S16> [i would like to stop] here <S16> yes </S16> i would like to stop here and and emphasise agree fully with you and even emphasise more that here we have two of the most crucial problems in in forest development globally er in in the poorer countries especially fore- the forest sector is not recognised and and the benefits do- don't have er monetary value so that leaves them out from the from all national planning and does not give the the the real picture of the situation </S13>
<S3> yeah they are behind most of activities in <S16> yes </S16> in in (xx) [(xx)] </S3>
<S13> [and and it's] all all all is overshadowed by the agricultural sector so so and and very often forestry's in the ministry of agriculture er which er causes problems , when forestry belongs to another er er er a separate ministry like ministry of natural resources then the situation often is better . okay please [kindly continue] </S13>
<S16> [o- okay] so it's very important to emphasise the importance of forest sector in the in the strategy but how to er how to articulate the national forest programme in the strategy so you have to do er several w- you have several ways to do it you have to raise the forest v- voice within er the forest sector and across related sectors of the economy for its higher priro- erm , priority in the national planning and the budgeting process so you have to use the media or some other ways to influence and people you influence the mhm public you influence the er policy makers to to er receive the money from the government to improve your erm the the the development of forests and also erm another important thing is er you have to erm speak with the ministries of financial planning because they er they gave the @money@ and er the last thing but not but not the least thing is the logical integration with other higher provider sectors such as agriculture health and trade this is just like i said mhm the forest sector is under some sectors so you have to cooperate with other sectors and you get much money from the government so that's erm al- almost all thank you very much @@ </S16>
<S15> er now we are almost at end of our presentation now i'm going to tell something about the recent status or the current status i guess er of the of the po- poverty reduction strategy in relation to forest and forestry sector forest sector er er we found that by october two hund- 2003 50 countries er were in various stage of preparation an- and implementation of poverty reduction strategy and out of those 50 countries er 25 countries were in sub-saharan africa they ha- they had already established er interim poverty reduction strategy papers and fu- full poverty reduction strategy papers er were formulated in 11 countries until mid-2002 er , an- but er almost half almost half of the of the interim poverty reduction strategy papers and all poverty re- reduction strategy papers especially in sub-saharan africa they have just just touched the forestry issue so er i mean they didn't emphasise that much the forestry issue i mean o- on those er interim poverty reduction strategy papers an- and full poverty s- reduction strategy papers and another limitation of of those papers er was that er the issue like the poor people's dependence on natural forest resources er was somehow overlooked but anyway that er er er we we als- er we found some er cause and effect relationship the- at least they have tried to analyse er the forestry issue and poverty reduction poverty and poverty reduction issue in in some cause and effect manner er but of course you know that poverty poverty is for example is a cause of deforestation but but at the same time have been developed i mean i mean development is is also poverty is is is is is it's a cause of deforestation that's true but being developed is also a cause i mean er yeah the economic growth is is also a cause of er this is also a cause of deforestation but anyway i'm not going too far in this issue right now , and er as our the earlier earlier speaker er was saying er that the er the forestry issue er fo- the the forestr- re- er especially the forestry-related responses of po- poverty reduction i mean the reforestation forest management fo- community forestry development of forest-based small scale industries they are put to the er some other development areas and under the some other development areas er that that the so-called er the PRSP i mean poverty reduction strategy paper programme areas for example agriculture rural development an- an- and environment i mean the forestry issues are or are considered supportive to the main programme areas they are not er the forestry in in in the er poverty reduction strategy papers er the forestry issues are supportive to the main er to to to the to the so-called poverty reduc- reduction strategy er paper programme areas , and er another limitation was that the linkage between the be- between the processes of po- poverty reduction strategy papers and and forest policy and planning was was er was weak somehow , now here are (the) some recommendations er to enhance the forest and forest sector's contribution to the poverty reduction er the first thing we can say that er if we can ensure the poor people's ac- poor people's access i mean the people who who depend on the forest , to the forest goods and services and er tha- that would help somehow and the the informing of er local governance systems or or strengthening and then forming some effective partnership partnership er er partnership of the local people with state market and civil society actors or any such that that that can help them to access and also to capitalise er the forest resources because they they live on the forest resources especially the forest-adjacent communities and another thing we could do or at least we could say there's this er improving the knowledge base on forest sector's contribution to the poverty reduction i mean if these people er you can you can you can make the people informed what the forest can do what forest sector can do in poverty reduction , and then i didn't find any mitigating or potential negative impacts of poverty reduction strategies and then the removing key constraint er at the country level with the help of international assistance for example er we could use the foreign er external finance to er to reform the policy and then local aspect and state and the local government systems so on , so this wraps our presentation and there are the references we used , thank you for your attention </S15>
<S13> thank you </S13>
<APPLAUSE>
<S13> thanks a lot you kept time very well and we have also now a chance to continue with discussion i will also give to all our of of the experts here er possibility to say a few words to all of them but before that so i invite comments questions from the , from the the the the the participants here for whatever you want to have more information or to have your critical comment <P:05> please <NAME S5> </S13>
<S5> er i was wondering that usually when world bank launches some kind of programmes they have some kind of conditions for their like funding so do you have any information about that for example in the case of mozambique what are the conditions for the funding <S15> er </S15> or in general how does this take place </S5>
<S15> okay er , we just er didn't emphasise on that so for the time being i know nothing </S15>
<S13> well actually their presentation answered to that question the poverty reduction strategy paper itself is a condition for having a world bank loan or or grant so that itself the whole process normally i- is is condition is a condition <S5> [yes] </S5> [for] receiving </S13>
<S5> yes and it has to include some like some , particular like areas of of [(xx)] </S5>
<S13> [no] and here this is a weakness you are correct in pointing out that that this si- si- single condition is not enough it doesn't say what has to be included <NAME S12> may want to comment more more on this but but the overall condition is that there is PRSP er or at least an interim PRSP but what is then included in that i- is not so well defined and here we have the problem forestry is easily omitted or it doesn't have the full attention <NAME S12> please </S13>
<S12> erm well perhaps the the the my colleague here on the left is er referring to the er mhm to erm erm to the conditions that are that occasionally are involved in in in er world bank funding the the some of the er PRS er mhm papers er mhm dealing with issues such as er er str- structure or reorganisation of the government they may have linkages to to to some budgetary reforms and er issues like that and the countries of course we have to consider them also very carefully on the one hand they are er they are condi- there may be conditions for the for the involvement of the world bank but it has to be also borne in mind that that the much of world bank funding is is lost and that's something that the countries at some point we have to pay back as as as opposed to much of the operations by the today by the bilateral funding which is in the form of grants also part of that is in loans but it's also very very that the countries themselves will have to look at the the these issues very carefully because they are they have to be paid back at some point in time later </S12>
<S13> but also we have the process that loans are written off so so so for the very <S12> [right] </S12> [poorest] countries <S12> [right] </S12> [er] because they were they were given with wrong premises er so the writing off process is going on , okay more comments <NAME NS10> </S13>
<NS10> erm in in the case study of mozambique you you presented the erm poverty reduction strategies and i was just wondering if they worked , like has there been any positive results from these </NS10>
<S15> okay we could expect that there are positive results but anyway er mhm , at the moment i don't have the update but er we hope that there are <NS10> yeah [of course] </NS10> [@@] </S15>
<S13> but your source said you had the E-F-I report what did what did it sa- say about er the results in in in poverty reduction that was the question also did it give any concrete er results </S13>
<S15> er no </S15>
<S13> w- er no what do you mean no it did not give or it it didn't exist </S13>
<S15> er i mean er er there was nothing concrete </S15>
<S13> in the report </S13>
<S15> yeah </S15>
<S13> okay but the general er erm assumption is er that the- there was an effect and it's it's been regarded as a as a as a er good case where al- where something already is happening and the reason is forestry was considered many m- much more in other countries in that particular poverty reduction strategy and because of that linkage it got better results so this was the the actually if you read carefully the report this is also the the conclusion from that particular report . er <NAME BS17> </S13>
<BS17> so can you elaborate on uganda and NFP please </BS17>
<S13> on what </S13>
<BS17> uganda </BS17>
<S13> uganda my i was curious to know why wh- where did you find uganda it's a very useful case but of all countries how how cam- did you come across </S13>
<S15> okay so er this part was er the thing i can no it was it was prepared by the other (xx) well i think i think she found it in @here@ </S15>
<S13> [who] </S13>
<S15> [she found] it </S15>
<S14> she she just left <S13> [okay] </S13> [for] another [course] </S14>
<S15> [okay] </S15>
<S13> your colleague yeah </S13>
<S15> okay (you're right) i i guess er she she used this source er from the book er that (one is) </S15>
<S3> this is a very good case it's very modern and and </S3>
<S13> yes <S3> advanced </S3> i congratulate you for finding that source bu- bu- but er it was a question here what was actually that [you] </S13>
<BS17> [yeah] because er it's a very good source are there some i mean [as (xx)] </BS17>
<S13> [you also] knew it before did you </S13>
<BS17> no i think i read it from the <S13> okay </S13> so i saw that the the (xx) before but this they are not saying anything about u- uganda . so that's why i wanted to know </BS17>
<S13> yeah but as <NAME S3> also said here so so it's a new source new case and very useful to study , there are other countries that we easily forget which are s- belong to a to a group of success stories malawi malawi is one country in africa remember that . [eh again please] </S13>
<BS17> [so what er what's] the MTEF please </BS17>
<S13> where you find that </S13>
<BS17> er it's under er <SU-14> which one </SU-14> <NS10> [it's in this] </NS10> [PRS] process </BS17>
<NS10> in the seventh slide </NS10>
<BS17> yeah </BS17>
<NS10> yeah <S13> [erm] </S13> [oh] you just passed it you just passed it yeah MTEF </NS10>
<S15> yeah i think [yeah] </S15>
<S14> [well] i just already actually told you the medium term expenditure framework it it was from this book </S14>
<S13> medium term what </S13>
<S14> medi- medium term expenditure expenditure framework </S14>
<S13> medium term expenditure framework , yes good i wouldn't have [known that] </S13>
<S14> [er i] show you which pa- what page is this (issue) </S14>
<S13> in the handout page two slide one </S13>
<S14> actually from this book is 125 </S14>
<S13> okay er don't worry about that <S14> [@@] </S14> [but] but thanks for the information the problem is we will have too many acronyms oh well and they are getting more and more er difficult to understand but here we already i didn't know this </S13>
<S14> M and E the the the the next line is er monetary and evaluation </S14>
<S13> [good good] </S13>
<SU> [monetary] </SU>
<S12> MTEF perhaps one could easily put it more easier by saying that medium term budgeting medium <S14> [medium term budgeting] </S14> [term as me-] me- medium term er budgeting a- at the national level </S12>
<S13> yeah economists tend to use very difficult [language] </S13>
<S14> [medium] term [budgeting] <S15> [medium term] budgeting </S15> at regional level </S14>
<S12> no at medium term budgetary planning at the national level er that would be my assumption </S12>
<S14> at national level </S14>
<NS10> what is in in that what does the medium mean i erm i don't understand [what's the (purpose)] </NS10>
<S12> [erm with that well] <S13> (xx) </S13> in in in this they are talking of of three years i would say three perhaps three to five five years in </S12>
<NS10> [so is that (hundred)] </NS10>
<S13> [something between] one year and ten years [so medi- er time frame] </S13>
<NS10> [so the medium is a time (difference)] okay </NS10>
<S13> time frame </S13>
<NS10> [er] </NS10>
<S3> [less] than a year is short and </S3>
<S13> yeah . more questions </S13>
<NS10> oh medium versus short or [long] </NS10>
<S13> [yeah] yeah yeah </S13>
<NS10> oh okay [okay] </NS10>
<S13> [well] you are a native english speaker </S13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS10> [yeah i know i know right] shh shh </NS10>
<S13> er why not now give to our experts here er er <NAME S12> had has been covering this particular topic er during the course do you have anything to to comment now except that the presentation was good </S13>
<S12> well yes i c- congratulate the the the er not only of the fact that they have er [managed to (xx)] </S12>
<S13> [use your material] </S13>
<S12> used the material properly but that's that's that's only good er thanks for that er the erm there was one er one point that er you not really directly related to poverty reduction as such but er when you mentioned the issue of a er develop- i think we we- we were discussing er about nepal yes on page three the the slide number four there er the that brings to my mind the mhm the neighbouring country india er er with its erm past and present activities as a fro- fo- forefront country in developing different mechanisms and systems for village forestry and community forestry now these issues are being developed in an- and being er implemented er in in many countries all over the the tropics and also elsewhere but india was was in 1970s and 1980s one of the one of the the the leaders in the development and er also successful they had failures but they had a number of successful erm <S15> do you mean [the] </S15> [systems] of a er in relation to community forestry and village forestry <S15> [okay] </S15> [yeah] so it's not directly related to poverty reduction as such but india is an important er er country that has been working on these </S12>
<S15> okay er do you mean the joint forestry management [programme] </S15>
<S12> [i- i-] er among others [yes] </S12>
<S15> [okay] i mean in india the joint forest management systems of <S12> yes </S12> okay </S15>
<S12> yes </S12>
<S13> yeah it was very well developed <S15> [yeah] </S15> [and] is still being [developed very well] </S13>
<S15> [yeah yeah] </S15>
<S13> okay <NAME S18> or (xx) <NAME S18> i haven't seen you for more than one month now after your coming back from mecca </S13>
<S18> er first <FOREIGN> salaam aleikum </FOREIGN> </S18>
<SS> [<FOREIGN> salaam aleikum </FOREIGN>] </SS>
<S18> [i'm i'm really sad that] i i was not here from the beginning i it looks like quite it was quite interesting in in the this sessions which i i now attended but er i have been thinking of er following this NFP thing for for many years but maybe my first just for all of us to think about is who own the NFP , not not not in terms of the national countries but in terms li- like international community we have this (F-P-A-O) now and we have UNFF and we have s- so many place now that try to get and put this NFP (aboard) this is maybe that has come across the the the the lectures but i i i i i want to go back just to the as as well as a sudanese i was thinking about foresters i think the situation is still is still about war in a way that we foresters not only me but all maybe all foresters in the developing countries are not still being proud of being foresters er many of them they have been (xx) when they are questioned what are you doing what is your profession normally they are trying to a- to er to avoid saying they are forester and that agriculturalist national resource manager rural development officer and things like that this is one question i think we need to we there- there's a need for for increasing our awareness and and er even among foresters that we sh- have to be proud of being foresters this is a side issue the other issue is is is related to the national <SIC> competensity </SIC> strategy for for the countries for the developing countries there is still lack and as as mentioned here and i would like to see forward , er the the course (the kind) of of of suggestion i think there are some some suggestion but still they're they're like a little bit vague what to do to remedy the situation if we all if we know that the the forest sector is behind and things like that is it just increasing the awareness among the the planners this is this is is is a question just to whe- where to put forestry is it just before the the the policy makers or is it the forestry sector itself (xx) like institutional supplement first within the forestry institutions the forestry institutions themselves i think they are still weak this is why there are not coun- th- the local who (xx) stand and say that yes you are here and you can do it and (you) are proud of that of what you are doing this is an institutional supplement by by increasing er training er technical know-how and then the other issue is is related to that harmonisation of policies that we foresters sometimes we see our- just ourself and we plan things like yes we know everything you know also we need to go to the others even if the others are retreating or they don't want to talk to us we should have to go and knock to their doors yes you are here and please that that that which you are doing is wrong can you do something about it this is another issue then the policies harmonisation of policies then the laws and legislation also in forestry need to be improved we ha- we have inherited in the developing countries quite a lot from from the earlier from the colonisation where forestry was like for preservation for protection maybe the communities are are are are are policed and are not allowed to touch trees they are not allowed to enter in the forest things like that so such kind of laws and legislation make you feel (robbed) and then erm , and and an inclusion in th- of the of the of the forestry in the national development plan that is that is something also related (xx) to say that only trees we need to to to integrate forestry an- and to see an- and to advertise it in terms like of of our forestry in a wider sense in in (xx) because you know forestry (needs) a fuller plan for for for animals in agriculture we need to tell agriculturalist you are going to spoil the land if you are not incorporating trees so this message of of of even getting those people agricultural people area management and others to forestry that i think is very good so so i i in in in in the NFP are the poverty reduction strategies and things like that there is a need for strengthening the the the pro-forestry an- and also our (staff) we need to to to to to be aware of what we are proud of what we are doing and this is just a general comment i don't know if we need to if i let you all to to comment on that </S18>
<S13> thank you <NAME S18> before giving the floor to <NAME S12> who has who wan- who wanted to have have a to give a im- immediate response so i would repeat what actually <NAME S18> already said here sudan is maybe one of the most extreme cases er where where er you can see the difficulties in in having forestry under agriculture in sudan agriculture dominates everything everything is dominated by agriculture and within agriculture it's irrigation the some of the largest schemes in the whole world er are ir- irrigated agriculture gezira scheme one million hectares irrigated and so on so agriculture er er er natural resources that is irrigated farming so forestry is totally lost and we have the additional fact that food is produced in the forest you know outside irrigation areas which is very much er directed towards export er farming export crops so the normal people poor people they get their food from forest by by growing their er er (xx) crops in o- in what is forest land which is under forestry administration so forestry administration is responsible for food production in sudan and this is not recognised this is not recognised in the national policy so here we have an extreme case wh- where the policies and maybe th- the whole administration structures must must change <NAME S12> you wanted to comment on and then then <NAME S3> </S13>
<S12> erm this was yes er as an immediate reflection of of of my colleague's er er intervention here er if we look at it the issue from the viewpoint of the poor from those who are really suffering from of from the conditions er i assume that the er the what is the administrative er arrangement er who who are under what ministry the the activities are being run who is who is doing th- doing the things er at national even regional level is is is er not that important really what is important of course is that that that the the conditions are are are favourable enough for the for the people somehow to manage on the er on the day-to-day basis so there in what i'm saying is that that erm the there may be different er administrative set-ups an- and many of them can be can be successful but in that in the second part in a way of of of of of his intervention er when he highlighted the issue of of er er the importance of forestry being present in the important negotiating tables and decision making processes that is er in my opinion an important issue because by by by only by being present there at the national at the regional national and global level can issues er in relation to forestry be properly er tabled and discussed including their potential for poverty reduction </S12>
<S13> thank you <NAME S12> i see a danger here that we are too much overlapping with number two group number two report but it doesn't matter if we to some extent repeat then in the next presentation because that will be on drylands that will very much highlight sudan so we should not exhaust now our discussion on sudan drylands on this particular erm follow follow-up er discussion but anyway <NAME S3> with this consideration er <S3> [okay] </S3> [er so] please <S3> okay </S3> you are free to [comment] </S13>
<S3> [yes] i ha- i have been impressed by by the quality of this presentation and many new things and i mean modern way of thinking you have taken up here so i'm really impressed that you have put it all together in this way , er these things that you have taken up i have been struggling myself with this valuation of forest for now for many years trying to develop this an- and also in in work outside university i'm trying to to put this forward so so this is really something that i think foresters need to emphasise provide arguments for why doing this an- and and provide v- values and and help decision makers in making this better and so on </S3>
<S13> and <NAME S3> is maybe the first also to to to emphasise that the knowledge does not is not housed in the university in the in the academic world but you must have a a close contact with the real situation you must know it properly <S3> yeah </S3> that's why in our teaching we also try to maintain the linkage to to direct action and not only keep our teaching in the classroom a- as you may may already know </S13>
<S3> th- th- the problem is that many much of the research is not a- applying it in the reality so you need people that also have the responsibility for doing the applications that are involved in this kind of work </S3>
<S13> good , doctor <NAME S2> </S13>
<S2> yes er i think er i also thank you for the presentation you provided er quite a good overview and current er information on forest poverty reduction and NFPs <COUGH> but when i look at er your papers of study er i would think that you you would have gone more into finding concrete information on the linkages between NFPs and then PRS er because you took mozambique er as a case study if you're able to for instance (xx) how has the NFPs encouraged utilisation of forest resources to lessen for instance poverty er er that would have been er good information because mozambique is a good case and malawi as we have heard and now uganda and also (xx) but otherwise i think it's quite er good er presentation </S2>
<S13> the reference book you have the E-F-I that you also mentioned that is an extremely good source and and as has been said here several times that is compulsory reading for tomorrow's exam so you will if you you will still have a chance to go go into these issues as <NAME S2> correctly pointed out <NAME S1> you now you are the coordinator for the whole course but maybe you also could kindly comment now on this particular er er presentation and its its er maybe its conclusions and also its approach </S13>
<S1> yeah thank you and like my colleagues i would like also to thank you for a good presentation makes me also proud that we have done some good job er but i have two two er presentation on the style comments the first one is already raised when you come across first time er an acronym please say it out because like you said WB i was just it is world bank that you wanted to say so i'm just this is a minor comment </S1>
<S13> okay all groups remember first time for the acronym you spell it out </S13>
<S15> yeah </S15>
<S1> yeah say it out so i i was just wondering , and the other thing also for the other groups erm don't er don't just read what did what you have written because otherwise we can have the paper an- and read it so you need (somewhat) to explain an- and look at the audience so these are the two on the way of er on the style of presentation , now the other one i have is a question for you , in our er several lectures we have seen discussed the case of finland experience in relation its er the forestry sector and the economic development and er so what do you think what's your opinion what are the lessons that we can learn from the experience of finland for poverty reduction in developing countries </S1>
<S13> good question it was not actually defined as as your specific task but from what you have heard d- d- during the course maybe you have an answer </S13>
<S15> okay what er i personally think is the is the the trademark i mean the er the infrastr- infrastructure and the and then the er this er management system . and er er i mean er in finland we have the of course it is a bit different than the developing countries you have er er the the most of the forest here are privately owned <S13> mhm </S13> i mean er this er , or i could say this er that the government system , at least you could transport this er this this er this this good example rather than try to implement it in the developing countries i mean how ho- how the finland manage the forest in general </S15>
<S13> er yeah and we could even elaborate and this has to do wi- with the with the current current topic finland was a developing country 100 years ago and more and it was forestry let me emphasise this and underline this it was forestry that lifted the rural population from poverty and closed the income gap and p- er and provided e- equality between the different sectors in the community it was forestry maybe we cannot generalise this for the whole world but in finland it has been the forestry activities that did it an- and there was one p- er one main reason for that forests were privately owned forests were owned by those very smallholder farmers that should er that were to be lifted out out from po- poverty so the forest ow- ownership has very much to do how this functions and finland is a unique case in the in the world where this has happened maybe we are too much believing that the finnish model works everywhere in the world no we should not believe that but finland offers an er er a good case of what can happen under certain given conditions <NAME S12> </S13>
<S12> and just to continue on that very briefly apart from that issue of of er private ownership er there there were at the same time there were also er the the related legislation an- and policies were developed to support forestry-based development development er put er mhm heavy support on this an- an- and a- at some point finland also received er loans from er from the world bank system in in in up to 1960s 1970s for for forest improvement so there was also er the government supported forestry develop- development which which was natural because it was at that time and still is relatively important in the national economy </S12>
<S13> so it was not a forest sector decision it was a national decision at the highest possible level including the government the parliament the private sector everything le- legislation er education research everything er er er for the for the same common aim , then it was <NAME S1> </S13>
<S1> i don't know (if) this have been now discussed but one important point for me was this clear and secure land ownership is is really important and also as <NAME S12> <NAME S12> mentioned policies and the legislation and so on , and in general which i have been thinking is the empowerment of the communities of thi- er through this decentralisation is also an important part finally i just give one minor comment er <NAME S3> may disagree with this but er when it comes to prosopis they presented er only the positive sides but i would like to say also there are negative sides things like it is an aggressive tree species and it invades grazing land and agricultural land so so there is a problem but there is the advantage as <NAME S3> mentioned and also i do not know i haven't come across any publication yet on a study its impact on biodiversity specifically prosopis but just to put it in balance that that there are both [sides] </S1>
<S13> [well] <NAME S3> 's doctoral thesis will be the first in world literature that will deal with it , no er it will confirm what already is known we have cases from other countries not only related to prosopis but also to other potentially invasive species south africa is a very well studied area , well ladies and gentlemen we are coming to the end of of our <NAME BS17> one more question or comment </S13>
<BS17> er erm i think er we during the course we we have a (lectures) from fire management but throughout this we we haven't seen any fire and like i mentioned (xx) so erm and i guess NFPs er might consider fire management as a tool so how do you see (it) </BS17>
<S15> [okay] </S15>
<S13> [yeah] final question why did you omit fire </S13>
<S15> okay it would've been better if we we had fire here but anyway er we were thinking that we have at least many issues to discuss so we just at least er er to keep as as i mean as we had many different issues we just had er ten minutes (xx) (omit it) for the time @being@ </S15>
<S13> your er answer is @accepted@ <SS> [@@] </SS> [of course] all groups have the right to focus their presentation it was impossible to take everything but what <NAME BS17> says is perfectly true here that fire is important an- and and at least in the discussion it should be brought up <S15> okay </S15> thank you for that comment also now er this is the end of the first presentation we thank you once more and er take a break before before the next group to to present here thank you </S13>
<15 MIN BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<S13> er we will change slightly the rules , we had earlier we cannot not avoid using persons' names here calling er it's it becomes unnatural situation so instead of talking person X person Y so we use the real names <SU> yes </SU> er the research er cannot be done properly on our english language use if we if we <COUGH> change that basic fact , so i will now give the floor to the group , first to its chair to introduce the group by names and then gradually go into the presentation again there is 45 minutes up to one hour time for the presentation after which there will be a discussion and again please be prepared to come with your comments questions additions whatever you want so please the group </S13>
<S9> yeah so [<NAME S13> has] </S9>
<S13> [the floor is yours] </S13>
<S9> as <NAME S13> already told it's past present and future use of dryland forest in sudan that's our topic and it overlaps a little bit to the former former er group work but maybe it doesn't matter so much and i'm <NAME S9> and </S9>
<NS10> i'm <NAME NS10> </NS10>
<S8> <NAME S8> </S8>
<S7> <NAME S7> </S7>
<NS10> so just er briefly the outline first we're going to present er drylands of the world and then er land degradation in these drylands some of the causes and effects and then we move specifically to the case study of sudan and we present the current situation there </NS10>
<S13> <NAME NS10> can you stop for a while you are free to take chairs it's not good to let you stand that will stress you too much so please everybody take your chairs and the gr- whole group and and throughout the presentation you can do it by sitting if you want </S13>
<NS10> yeah okay but i'll continue because it's just this outline part so we will just quickly talk about the current situation and the political situation and the environmental situation there and then we talk about land tenure and er land degradation causes and effects and a bit about agroforestry and then we move to forest policy in sudan and then we have some conclusions and recommendations </NS10>
<S8> alright so here we have a nice picture showing the distribution of the dryland forests of the world and here we have sudan and as you can see only the desert part is excluded from the dryland forest part and most of the dryland forests are in africa . well , to understand the locations of the dryland forest we have to know where the drylands are and they're mainly on tropical areas excluding the polar and sub-polar regions and or places where the precipitation is low and evapotranspiration is high and these areas are defined by their aridity and they include arid semi-arid and dry sub-humid areas </S8>
<NS10> so as far as dryland forests go in drylands we were , we saw both used all the time and so we were trying to figure out what the difference was and it was it's quite confusing i think because it's never clearly stated in the research whether it's a dryland forest they are talking about or drylands in general but according to the F-A-O erm a dryland well a forest in general has to have more than 10 per cent er forest cover so that's what this picture is showing here it'd be an area with [10 per cent] </NS10>
<S13> [and specifically] <NAME NS10> canopy cover </S13>
<NS10> ca- yes canopy cover yes yes and and this is 10 per cent here and if you look at <S1 BRINGS NS10 A LASER POINTER> uh-huh , okay wow if you , if you look at er er this one this is 75 per cent forest cover and this would be more what you would see in finland you'd have some areas where it's completely very dense and you wouldn't be able to see above you and some areas where it's more open so you can see a big difference but as as far as most of what we present it was never clearly stated that it was dryland forest but it was dryland areas so then it would be this plus less cover or more cover and yeah so we just wanted to make that point here </NS10>
<S13> and then the additional er conditions </S13>
<NS10> yeah and additional ad- additions for a forest according to the F-A-O is that is has to have this 10 per cent ground cover er an area larger than a half of hectare and the tree height was a minimum of five metres </NS10>
<S13> when the forest is mature </S13>
<NS10> yes </NS10>
<S8> so here we come to the point what <NAME NS10> was saying er the dryland forests are composed of this mosaic of different kinds of ecosystems which makes these ecosystems very dynamic and disequilibrium meaning that there is annual change for example in the precipitation there are the dry season and the wet season which makes it very different throughout the year and there are approximately 240 million hectares of dryland forest in the world and most of it is in africa </S8>
<NS10> so some of the causes of land degradation in these er dryland areas and dryland forests it can be divided er into a couple of different things but the direct local factors here are overgrazing of areas and then also when they come and then they burn an area to increase the fodder for animals er agricultural activity overexploitation of the resources maybe collecting too much firewood or harvesting too much areas but also low vegetation er deforestation er shifting cultivation practices so when large scale agr- agriculture comes in and there use a lot of er er large industrial machines this can cause more er degradation especially when it's not done properly and mining is also important for land degradation in some areas er on a national level some of the erm things that affect land degradation is government corruption and er also government policies where they maybe they even have good policies in a government but they are not enforced correctly er industrial corruption political instability and er market failure of the country can also cause some erm indirectly land degradation and then in the middle here i have things that don't really belong to either of these national factors or these direct lo- local agents but they are in both parts so land tenure is something to consider when you look at land degradation er it plays a really important part on either preventing land degradation or helping to increase it because people don't er maybe i don't know if respect the land is a right way to say it but they have a different relationship with the land when there's no land and or they don't own the land er the value people place on the forest and the the value of the trees there er also this forest based development er it can help decrease land degradation er poverty plays a very important role in de- land degradation we'll talk about that a bit more later when we look at sudan and er , increase in population puts more pressure on the land so er in dryland sub-sahara africa the land degradation i- i've separated into the land use an irrigated crop land 1.9 million hectares of land are er degraded and that's 18 per cent of these er irrigated crop lands and rain fre- rain fed crop lands it's 48.9 per cent and then rangelands it's 74 per cent but you have to be cautious when you look at these numbers because it does not mention how severe the degradation is and also these the actual areas often the data isn't the reliability isn't stated so be- use caution when you see these numbers and i just wanted to make a point of how big exactly one million hectares is because that's quite a large number and you just gotta visualise it i think but er one million hectares is 14 times larger than the hel- helsinki metropolitan area so vantaa espoo and helsinki so it's quite a huge area </NS10>
<S13> it's close to the area of the o- of the old er <FOREIGN> uusimaa </FOREIGN> province so that is a good measure one million hectare the old province of <FOREIGN> uusimaa </FOREIGN> </S13>
<NS10> er and just to continue with this land degradation in dryland africa the major causes erm are overgrazing and er and i've this is separated into arid and semi-arid regions and in over- er arid regions er overgrazing causes a 119 million hectares of land degradation er but also agricultural activity plays an important role er overexploitation of the resources and deforestation so you can see the numbers i don't wanna say them all erm and just to give you an idea of this aridity erm and the most arid regions are classified as having point oh five to point two per cent i mean two aridity index value and in the er this one the semi-arid regions is point two to point five and now to make a a comparison to finland er in hyytiälä he- here's the values of aridity i calculated them because it's just the annual precipitation , the ratio between annual precipitation and potential evapotranspiration so 2002 was a bit of a draught year you can see it's point seven seven but of course this is very different because this is only one year when you compare it to this one which is point five so it's much more moist here </NS10>
<S13> and it probably refers to the growing season only </S13>
<NS10> yeah no no this is this is er this is yearly values but in finland you have to [remember that in the in the winter] </NS10>
<S13> [but er how can you take the] snow cover and then then the the summer time [evapor- no i don't believe in those] </S13>
<NS10> [there's a exactly it's er it's not a it's er] well er no it's just it's just potential eva- evapotranspiration for the whole year <S13> mhm </S13> and the precipitation but in the winter here you don't really have potential evapotranspiration so it's a funny comparison but i just wanted to give [er idea] </NS10>
<S13> [so the meaning for] crop cultivation i- is not not very relevant <NS10> [yeah] </NS10> [in] for the finnish (i mean) </S13>
<NS10> yeah , so impacts of land degradation in dryland forests er the direct im- impacts are shortage of fuelwood er shortage of non-timber products such as honey the decrease in biological productivity loss of biodiversity reduction of food production and of course the worst would be severe desertification and er these are the direct results on many local people </NS10>
<S13> one thing <NAME NS10> <NS10> yeah </NS10> could you speak a bit slower <NS10> sorry [yes] </NS10> [be- because] er we are not in a hurry an- and of course you er it's your native language <NS10> yes </NS10> but for us others it might be easier to to catch it if you just slow it a bit </S13>
<NS10> yeah i'll do my best so <SS> @@ </SS> @@ yes er the direct results as far as er the local populations go as this increases the poverty and when you look at this whole list you see that i have all these lines it's because they are all so interrelated so it increases poverty and some of the causes of that could be the drying out of springs or the the having to look longer for firewood because then people would have less time to spend on other more productive er activities i guess er increases malnutrition because looking for food or er decreased er non-timber products such as honey from the forest er the reduction of water quality which could lead to increases in diseases which could lead to more money expense er going to hospitals which increases poverty but you see the relationship and how land degradation can affect the local people </NS10>
<P:04>
<S8> okay so some basic information about sudan before we go into the details er if you can see the map of africa here you can see where sudan is placed and this map of sudan and something important to notice is the nile river there going through sudan which is an important factor because that's the only place where you actually have water throughout the year . as i mentioned some basic background the population is approximately 40 million people and the gross domestic pay per capita is more than 900 US dollars wasn't it 230 for mozambique that we heard so it's much more but as matti palo said that human development index is actually better way to measure things so in sudan it's point 51 and to compare that with finland in finland it's point 94 and finland is rated amongst the highest in the world erm since they are living in post-war times in sudan there's shortage of all the goods and they still get most of their income from the agriculture and the main agriculture products are sesame and gum arabic which we will be talking about later on . erm well the political current situation er they have this comprehensive peace agreement in 2005 and not even a year later they were again in war with chad and there's authoritative governance but in practice all the power is within the president's power all the posts currently held in the ministerial cabinet are temporary so very unstable situation there and again there's been clashes in south sudan and they've been reported to be the heaviest since 2005 agreement </S8>
<S13> just a little spelling thing so you use a finnish spelling for chad er the official spelling you rarely see it but the country itself writes it in different ways for english speakers it's <POINTING TO THE WHITEBOARD> the upper one and french speakers the second one so it can be written in three different ways </S13>
<S8> er the forest cover in sudan is said to be 26 per cent but as we saw the pictures earlier it shows more than 26 so this is the real forest and what we saw was the dryland forest cover and the forest cover has decreased a lot in 10 years as you can see and as to say something about the land use forest and woodland still cover 19 per cent of the land use . and here we have a nice map showing the distribution of the vegetation cover in sudan and we are now concentrating on the gum arabic zone there the yellow one we'll be talking more about it later on and there we have some facts about the forest area and cover of sudan , and the dryland area is quite big </S8>
<S9> so then about land tenure because it affects all the forest related questions so we have to take it here so er it's very different from finland finland for example because only one per cent about one per cent is owned by private owners and the private owner owned lands are mainly by the nile and they are irrigated , or they erm or whatever it's agricultural land and erm this there came a law in 1970s called unregistered land act er after after which all the all the unregistered land was claimed to belong to government and so all the traditional owned lands then after that suddenly belonged to government which was which was a big problem at some point or still is and erm because all the land is owned by government or almost all it's possible to lease land from [government] </S9>
<S13> [and here] we have new words useful words you have a a freehold if you own it but you have a leasehold if you lease the land so useful words to remember a leasehold </S13>
<S9> yeah but erm the mhm it's typically for 25 years for example but er and i don't know how much it would cost but i suppose it's not for the poorest people this leasing of land and er in in these lands they usually er practice semi or large scale er mechanised farming with irrigation (xx) of that and then er another va- vast areas covering land tenure system is this unregiste- unregistered land with traditional usufruct rights and there i have written that <READING ALOUD> established through unlawful settlement and unlawful clearing and cultivation by individuals or groups </READING ALOUD> so it's the other part but then another is that erm people who have owned the land for for example centuries some families and then because of this unregistered land land act they still cultivate their their crops there but it's er it's unregistered so they also belong to this group these people who traditionally own the land </S9>
<S13> and please for the leasehold see that there are completely different types different patterns different traditions we have the irrigation schemes <S9> mhm </S9> which are relatively well organised and and it's it's er it's er works on a permanent basis but then we have the rain fed land and leaseholds on that particular land and that is a problem it's meant to be permanent but it in practice often is not and here we have the problem <S9> yeah </S9> so the rain fed lands and irrigated lands that's a big division in sudan </S13>
<S9> yeah and these er traditional usufruct erm lands where they practice these unregistered lands where they have farms they are usually rain fed not irrigated . and then er problems about this mess in land tenure systems er is that if you don't own the land you cannot use the land as collateral and then you [can't] </S9>
<S13> [everyone] knows what collateral means <FOREIGN> lainan vakuus </FOREIGN> </S13>
<S9> it's the thing with what you can er borrow money from the bank you need to have some kind of thing to </S9>
<SU> security </SU>
<S13> mhm </S13>
<S9> yeah , so they cannot get credit and it's then er pretty hard to raise from the poverty because you don't you don't you can't invest to your land if you don't get the loan from the bank and er another problem is that er if if a person doesn't own the land it's usually unsustainable farming that he would practice because if it's if the ownership is not secure you don't for example want to plant tree- trees usually because it takes long time for them to grow and so it should be for trees for example it should be secure the ownership or the or the ownership rights or yeah i forgot all the words i'm sorry @@ <SS> @@ </SS> and then it also evo- evokes conflicts between er different land users so for example in these erm in these different areas where ownership rights and land use rights are are unclear it may evoke conflicts between nomadic pastoralists and sedentary crop farmers in sudan because if you don't know what what is your right then maybe all the people try to use it and it may they could be fighting for it and er for this many er many researches and for example world bank has given a solution which would be a new land reform which could help maybe these problems but i i don't go deeper into that i don't i don't know which kind it should be but anyway you (xx) better , well then dryland forests and tree uses mhm as it was told in the in the former former erm previous er introduction we had we had all this many many people are dependent about the about the forest so they are these forest-adjacent communities which was this word that we all have to know and er at least of course also urban dwellers as they they also use charcoal and wood but maybe more strictly these settled farmers who who who who <FOREIGN> @asua@ </FOREIGN> <SU-11> dwell </SU-11> dwell who dwell in the er in the rural areas and then nomadic people of course because they may use the forest and wood as as forage for their cattle so people and poorest people often it's their major income resource this forest so it's an important point about poverty as they also told before so usually people get the energy from forest in in sudan it's 70 per cent what how mhm how much people get get energy from wood and then they get construction material for all the all the houses and fences and all that and fodder for ani- animals so in dry dry season it's essential because there is no grass to eat so trees are very essential and also what mr <NAME S3> was telling telling us about for example this prosopis mhm woods woods make shelterbelts for so that maybe the eros- erosion will not be so hard and the desertification will not enter into houses at least @@ and erm of course important thing also is non- non-timber forest products which which for example gum arabic is . and here we made a table according to the data from er anu eskonheimo's research in north kordofan in sudan and it's it's about er nomadic pastoralists and sedentary farmers and their favourite trees and the uses so this is just detail about how how they how they how they like about different species so for for nomadic pastoralists it's common that they of course valuate the forage but (xx) there is a- almost everywhere there is forage for animals and then also they use in all the all the species there are fruits mentioned and er also medic- medication for sedentary farmers they are in every every every species there are firewood and charcoal mentioned and shade and medicament but i suppose also for for nomadic pastoralists er this fuelwood is really important but they just maybe didn't give it in every tree i don't know why yeah in sedentary farmers favourite tree this is acacia senegal which is the gum arabic tree and er in north kor- north kordoban is part of this gum belt so it's they they practise this agroforestry with with er acacia senegal so that's why they mention it first </S9>
<NS10> so now we see how important these er dryland forests are in sudan and er the major causes of dryland degradation in sudan are overgrazing agriculture firewood and charcoal production and collection and the domestic use of forest so there's 64 million hectares of soil that are de- degraded in sudan and the large scale agriculture is the main force contributing to soil degradation which leads to well yeah degradation so erm it's not so much vegetation degradation in sudan as it is more soil degradation which is leading to this desertification . er agriculture a- as i said is the main factor contributing to land degradation and er also a lot of rangelands are being cleared er by fire for example and er during the 1980s and 1990s er there was a there was a plan that sudan would be er er self-sufficient as far as food production so there was a rapid expansion er in clearing for agriculture and er in 1954 there was only two million hectares of agricultural lands but this has increased to 40 million hectares </NS10>
<S13> maybe we should point out that it was not only self-sufficiency which generally is reached er has been reached all the time sudan was was to be to become the the bread basket of the whole northern africa middle east region for export grain that was er the behind it and mainly mainly er sorghum sorghum an- and to lesser extent er millet er millet but mainly sorghum , we- er to some extent wheat <S18> yes </S18> there were serious plans for for wheat production can you imagine <NS10> mhm </NS10> in a tropical climate with irrigation in the winter months in the winter months </S13>
<NS10> so another important livelihood is or well not livelihood but another important effect is this er collection of fuelwood and er 73 per cent of the energy comes from this wood and er the task is usually carried out by er women and as as the land is degrading and er these these females are having to go further and further away from where they live and it's just creating a cycle with the poverty because they are spending more time looking for firewood and not doing other tasks and then they also have to do all the agriculture and the milling of the grains and finding water so it's just a very big cycle and er cas- cattle grazing is kind of the the third main area that's causing some land degradation and that's such a important livelihood and the the range fires they are set by the cattle herders to to increase the the green grass for the cattle is causing an annual loss of 35 per cent of the natural range productivity so i think if i'm understanding this correctly it's it's by burning it it- it's killing off all the other plants that are there even though they are dead which is causing an increase in the soil to be removed by wind (is it) , correct </NS10>
<S13> [yes] </S13>
<NS10> [yeah] okay </NS10>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S13> [well (we have)] <NAME BS17> will comment on this </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S9> okay then about agro- agroforestry systems in sudan so of course there are also all the home gardens and shelterbelts and forest land or boundaries for crops crop fields but er the main forms are these two so another one is based on faidherbia albida which is also called acacia albida at least some- sometimes and erm this is agrosilvopastoral system and the the the good thing about this faidherbia albida is that it shed- sheds its leaves in in the rainy season which er which is good for the crop because then it may get sun and it doesn't shade too much and trees usually don't do it they usually keep their keep their leaves during the duri- during the rainy season and er in this system also livestock is included , another another system very common in sudan and very traditional is this system based on acacia senegal which is the gum arabic gum producing system and er it's these farms kind of make the gum belt through through the dry regions in sudan and actually through whole whole africa and erm so they they get g- gum arabic in the fallow season so they're first they cultivate crops for some time until the yields drop too low and then they er take the land for fallow for er gum arabic production with acacia senegal and acacia senegal is a nitrogen fixing tree so so it's good fallow species and erm in this er food crop time they usually cultivate millet and sorghum which o- resist the dry climate really well and also sesame this karkadeh which is hibiscus ts- [hibiscus] </S9>
<S13> [hibiscus] <S9> yeah </S9> one hibiscus species <S9> yeah </S9> for the flower for the petals to make the drink <S9> [yeah] </S9> [maybe] you all have [by now heard about it] </S13>
<S9> [er red] red tasted drink it's nice and but these sesame and karkadeh are usually for money crops so people cultivate money crops inside these erm these erm food crops so that they can get some income during the mhm crop cultivation </S9>
<S13> it's very often mixed cultivation all crops together in a mixture </S13>
<S9> mhm , and erm length of this rotation is about 20 years s- so then the ownership should be really secure because of that oh yeah and i told about gum belt yeah it it's it is like a buffer zone against desertification between the dry north and then a little bit more humid south , there is a this colourful picture there is acacia albida with some huts and then acacia senegal </S9>
<S7> okay i shall tell you something about the er forest policy and the NFP pro- process in sudan , er i thought i could start with erm an interesting point in s- er which is erm ac- at least was applied in sudan erm the use of forests and forest resour- resources was quite different from finland for example since the reservation of national forests have been ongoing since 1932 and it was aimed erm er with that they can concentrate the management of forest reserves under government control and that was done by legislation which prevented the local communit- communities from the access to the forests and the use of resources it was kind of er with the legislation the management was more orientated towards control and punishment rather than development and sustainable management this has resulted in illegal use and in forest degradation this was both in in the reserve forests as well as outside those reserve forests since those were hel- erm easier to enter by people because there was not even a threat of punishment but then another harm they didn't care about the legislation that much and they entered reserve forests as well , there has been a new le- legislation which has recognised the participation in a different way that was a new forest policy erm but in , i have to admit that i wasn't able to kind of find what's the current situation with the legislation is it's like this all legislation totally erm it's it's the past it's in the past or is it still partly relevant today i'm not erm </S7>
<S13> we will discuss it <S7> [later] </S7> [separately] yes later </S13>
<S7> anyway the reserve area today is about 12 million hectares </S7>
<S13> which is not much considering the whole of the </S13>
<S7> yes because yeah (do you have it) yes erm i could then tell something about the forestry s- sector review which was er done between the 1840 and 1860 it's considered to be the starting point for the NFP process it included two phases phase one was data collection on a local level it also included some erm preliminary er planning then there was phase two which was a detailed analysis by an international team and that team was er joint UNDP united nations development programme and world bank energy sector management assistant programme , erm it identified the development priorities of the wood energy and forestry sector erm it resulted a forest resource conservation project which kind of addressed the main and there's the main components of how to er combat er , against those er how to er make those d- development priorities go forward , then there is a new forest policy in 1986 which was kind of erm it's it was a change in the legislation to erm to make the erm public participation better in sudan er within forestry er it aimed at the protection of 20 per cent of the country it emphasised like i mentioned in a totally different level like compared with the the old forest policy sustainable forest management and participation er it was it's considered to be the first change in the legislation towards conservation of natural resources and it's the base for the forest sector's strategy and there was a new forest act in er 89 which established forest national corporation FNC which is a fairly autono- autonomous parastatal body and er in case some of you don't remember what's parastatal if i remember it right it's like a government-owned company which it at least partly can use its own incomes </S7>
<S13> like <FOREIGN> metsähallitus </FOREIGN> in finland <S7> yeah </S7> same thing </S13>
<S7> yes erm then er then there was a comprehensive national strategy between 92 and 2002 there was a socio-economic development plan it it included er 12 separate strategies for different sectors and it treated forestry issues as well even though there were fo- there's no no such thing as forestry sector as such in sudan it was included in other strategies it called for the allocation of 25 per cent of the total area of the country for natural resources highlighted environmental aspects and sustainable development it was implemented through two three years' and one four-year programme then there was a number of number of presidential decrees in 1990s the one er which aims to leave the forest reserves to cover up to 10 million hectares yeah that's right it's 10 million is only four per cent <S13> yeah yeah </S13> that was in 93 and then th- another one which was t- s- treated the decentralisation by the division of state and federal governments that was in 94 and that was kind of the beginning for the er development which aims to erm <SIC> decentralation </SIC> which we treated erm just a moment ago that it's a really important factor of er er NFP process as well as i remember there was a discussion in the earlier in the er during the course that the body that is involved with the forest management should be separate from the body that i- involves with the place in the legislation that's from that is that treats forests so this was part of that er development <NS10 SWITCHES SLIDES FOR HER> thanks , erm then there was this was er like erm it was er continued that development there was a designation of federal and state forests by the new constitution in 98 it di- er yeah it that was part of it to develop a criteria to separate those two forests and then about the current situation er this is kind of all what i found er at least from F-A-O forestry er NF NFP update was that the revision of forest policy statement is underway <S14> what is FNC </S14> and </S7>
<S13> sorry what </S13>
<S7> yeah </S7>
<S14> what is FNC </S14>
<S13> can you tell FNC repeat the acronym </S13>
<S7> was it forest national corporation or [(xx)] </S7>
<S13> [it's er] not proper english language but it's the official name forests national corporation </S13>
<S7> it's kind of the body that [er] </S7>
<S13> [that] is a parastatal forest <S7> [yeah] </S7> [er] autho- er forestry er organisation forests national corporation that it happens to be its official name </S13>
<S7> and then there's er three key changes that has er occurred in the last five years and these were something that at least should be taken into consideration when renewing this er forest policy statement there's been changes in fuelwood and car- charcoal demand especially erm in the urban areas by urban population which have er increased the use of liquid petroleum gas and this has again lowered the income for the FNC and for local people rural rural population second one is policy shifts in favour of private sector involvement in forestry and this is something that has to be considered as well that er the li- liberalisation in the gum arabic sector would have important important implications for income to the private farmers as well as er for FNC the third one is decentralisation even though it has er been er , er decentralisation is something that has er been accomplished already still it has to be er highlighted even today er there's need to reassess the role and responsibility of the different actors such as federal governments or local bodies private sector so , then i wanted to bring erm it's somehow of a example one of the most important er principles of NFP process has considered to be er public participation and i i wanted to have a look on that erm how what's the situation of public participation in sudan er well this is just the background it is considered by several international important documents it has considered to be an important factor to involve the locals into the erm er both the planning and implementation of the process and that i think was er a a nice er citation from glover why participatory forest management is important participatory forest management is kind of just a part of the participation which like i mentioned also includes the erm participation within the er planning of the pro- process that this is treats the implementation how the locals are involved in the implementation of the process , er this yes is about the situation in in sudan like i mentioned because of the forests were the locals were not able they were not allowed to enter the forest even though they did but it wasn't legal we could say that the participatory forest management the- there we- there was not such a thing in the early days but since the 1980s both IGOs international governmental organisations and NGOs non-governmental organisations have introduced this concept er into the management practices inside the natural forest reserved reserves erm and the objective of them has been er forest rehabilitation and sustainable management there's been legislative developments since 1986 which was when the er the new erm forest policy statement was er er came out and it recognised the local peoples in in a totally different manner , erm and and now there are several organisational models of participatory forest management which are applied in sudan and those are all erm treated er presented in the glover book which er well if somebody wants to have a look i have it there er there's really a a erm a lot of different kind of models at least i think there was at least erm 10 of them in different parts of sudan , but i thought well we don't have much time but i could i thought it was a good example of one organisational model of how to improve PFM <FOREIGN> eli </FOREIGN> er in other words participatory forest management in the in the management of natural forest reserves this er two there i- there's two models and they are both applied in the same area model one was er they were both like rehabilitation programmes model one th- th- was a programme where , i- it was to involve the local people on the rehabilitation programme erm and there's the responsibilities of them but the main difference between these two models was that in the model one the centralised it was called centralised forest management system er the protection was er was done by the forest guards and officers which means by the by the state or the er official bodies but then in model two it was close to the model one but their erm protection or surveillance of the erm er planted areas were done by i- it was like a joint initiative and both were involved er the local office- like the officers as well as er the local people and it was yeah model two was agroforestry er plan with the aim as in rehabilitation like i mentioned before it was called collaborative forest management okay it was just a like a short sort of er an explanation i mean the results are in the second slide here erm the model one showed that after the first year the forestry crop failed to survive and that was mainly because of the the the surveillance of the forestry authorities was not was not adequate the stocking density was low sometimes even close to zero and it can be considered as a failure after rehabilitation programme but then in the in the model two erm there was no er overgrazing no mismanagement er the stocking density was really quite well quite good and it was considered to be a s- a success </S7>
<S13> maybe we should add immediately before i forget the the or can you elaborate who where the the the main beneficiaries in model two if we look at the different er sections or strata of the community </S13>
<S7> er who were the main beneficiaries </S7>
<S13> yeah </S13>
<S7> you mean <S13> [er if] </S13> [were they] the locals or the [officials] </S7>
<S13> [no no] if we divide as eddie glover in his doctoral thesis did we have the big land owners the smallholder farmers and the landless how can you see <S7> [uh-huh] </S7> [the] different groups er benefiting from this successful model model two can you remember that </S13>
<S7> er the model two was like there was erm it was er like a plot of land which they the people it it was based on er two-party contracts and the the local who took er th- the land it he got it for the cultivation for four four or five years i can i think it was four years and for that time er the government secured that he could get er the seed for the trees as well as er the secure land <S13> [mhm] </S13> [tenure] for that time so i would say it was for the small scale farmers </S7>
<S13> no the landless please this was the point of the whole thing it was erm for the benefit of the landless population mostly of course the smallholder farmers could participate but the programme was aimed at providing land for the landless who earlier went to the forest illegally cut the trees cultivated their crops now they had an agreement they could do it with a legal basis this was the main achievement </S13>
<S7> but then i thought it wou- it's a go- s- good example just how er the degraded land can be er rehabilitated <S13> yes </S13> with this kind of project </S7>
<NS10> so and then just a couple of conclusions which i think we all can say something about <SU-7> yes </SU-7> is that er in the future er land tenure should play a very important part in land reforms and forest management with the example you just gave we saw how a better land tenure security you get <S7> yeah </S7> rehabilitation effects er also the local people's perception and participation in land managements is really important and the government no matter how good their policies may become if the local people aren't aware of their rights then and if they are not involved in it then it really doesn't go <SIC> anywheres </SIC> er sustainable forest management should also be part of it (i think) </NS10>
<S9> yeah sustaina- sustainable forest management er in most cases comes from the secure tenure i would say so it's kind of related to the first one , (xx) </S9>
<S7> and like in in the principle of the NFP processes the forest policies and legislation and the erm how the gover- government is organised within a country is a quite an important factor of how they process can be erm what are the rules and who does what and what are the responsibilities and (experimentation) </S7>
<NS10> and the policies within the government also need to be in harmony with each other you can't have different sections saying different things 'cause it doesn't work because then it leads to confusion </NS10>
<S7> but and of course erm it shouldn't because if there's a threat that it's only the policy and there's no action in in practice so there needs to be a a good er chain that er organisational structure that er that provides the possibility that the the plans can be called into action </S7>
<NS10> in in glover's er thesis he talked about the the people's perception of land ownership and it was there was two sides some people thought er as a community they owned it or not so much that they actually owned it owned it but that they had the rights to use everything that was there as a community and other people really just thought it was only the government's and they had no rights to use what was there and everything they did was illegal and then there's also lots of other opinions too but that was kind of the two outside views i guess yeah </NS10>
<S13> can you show the references the next </S13>
<NS10> ah yeah </NS10>
<S13> and here i would like to criticise you a bit who can read it not with my old eyes at least <SS> @@ </SS> so so could you do us a favour and and copy it again this only slide <NS10> yeah </NS10> on a bigger format so we would have the references , otherwise thank you thank you very much for your presentation thanks </S13>
<APPLAUSE>
<S13> i would immediately like to comment that i liked your way of of presenting or mentioning the references also in different slides including the illustrations that you took from the web it's always good to put the reference er that's polite for the original authors but also for information and for help for the others who will use your your report so this was very well prepared in that particular respect also you have a long list of references that's why i i want everybody to be able to to to read it and and to use it , of course from the VITRI our institute view- viewpoint it's nice to see that you are so widely using the doctoral theses other works prepared at at our our our our institute , sudan has been and still is our main er maybe the most important partner country so we have lots of information and we want our students to become familiar also with all that information we have , now again there's a chance to comment on on on on on on the the presentation first er please the student participants and then then our experts we have <NAME S18> here er who who certainly will have many things to to to clarify and to to add here but we will let the students first , eddie er no <NAME BS17> are you er satisfied with the with the forest fire </S13>
<BS17> the fire @yeah@ </BS17>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<BS17> yes i'm pleased @@ yes , i'm sorry </BS17>
<S13> yeah it's er it as we heard duri- during one of the lectures so by by mike jurvelius so the fire regimes they very much affect the land use and also directly the the the livelihoods , and as mike told in his lecture it's the animal husbandry that that is mostly favoured when you have a proper fire regime <P:05> yes comments questions <P:05> there are linkages with with the other group or especially number one that you already have heard . <NAME S14> you want to to </S13>
<S14> no no </S14>
<S13> well you are overwhelmed </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S9> yeah </S9>
<S5> well er er this is a a little bit maybe out of the subject but do you have any information about the wars and conflicts how they like er what kind of im- impact they have on these for example forestry and other other issues that i would assume that if there's been a war in the country then it's almost impossible to concentrate on for example these kind of issues at that time so do you have any [(examples)] </S5>
<S13> [<NAME S5> good] good that you took this up because sudan well unfortunately is too typical a a case with internal conflicts very having a very very heavy impact on on the country as a whole an- and and its people so so what is your your <S9> er </S9> view your response to that </S13>
<S9> there are two million refugees at the moment and i suppose they </S9>
<S13> two million internal refugees </S13>
<S9> yeah but [some of them] </S9>
<S13> [mainly southerners] er in the north </S13>
<S9> yeah but i suppose some of them are in chad and other countries but also in- inside sudan and maybe they then er er do this slash [slash slash-and-burn agriculture] </S9>
<NS10> [slash slash-and-burn agri- agriculture] </NS10>
<S9> so it's also affect- it also affects this dryland thing </S9>
<S13> yeah the refugees they have gone all ways er southerners to the north then then then er darfur people partly to chad ethiopians er fleeing er er er the the war with with eritrea into sudan an- and all those so so so well maybe at least one million still in sudan internal refugees plus then across the border and then and then the case that the civil war only ended was it er er almost two years ago and and and that went on for 25 years 25 years war in the south and after that came the darfur conflict which still is continued </S13>
<S3> and the- there is also other refugees with eritrea and ethiopia and s- [(xx)] </S3>
<S13> [yes] </S13>
<S1> but there are also many refugees on southern sudan and ethiopia as well [(xx)] </S1>
<SU-18> [(xx)] [(xx)] </SU-18>
<S13> [yes it goes across the borders] in in all all that so sudan has many factors here that we definitely have to consider the internal the civil war and the internal conflict is one but then er one thing that is a legis- the the whole country it's the largest country in africa and it it's not just one country it's a federal er erm er country or state with 26 er states and each one of these 26 states has its own government so there are 26 plus one ministers of agriculture in the country <SS> @@ </SS> i have met some of them so it makes it's also a little bit confusing to have so many different administrations but that is part of the policy there can't be peace in sudan without decentralisation so there will be states which will have more and more i- independence an- an- an- and possibilities to develop them in the northern part of the country that is well already completed but in the south it's complicated by the fact that th- there will be probably a common southern sudan so to say government also representing the all the southern states possibly er integrating properly the southern part that was in war with the khartoum government for 25 years is now er of course an important there so the forestry administration has also been decentralised each state basically has a a a forest er well at least a department and then what is the role of the state forestry administration and the federal forestry administration is still not settled properly in in the country and and then er yeah decentralisation -sation which er continues both in the country as a whole and then also in forestry and then er er related to the to the internal conflict but even more with the international er politics sudan was cou- c- cut out completely from international aid in 1992 so it was in isolation for o- about ten years total isolation an- and that er has also its effect and now we have the new factor <S7> (er) [can i] </S7> [oil] sudan probably has the biggest oil reserves in in the whole african continent and that is bringing in wealth and you can already see you have been able to see for the last er almost the last 10 years or so when the infrastructure is being improved at a very fast rate the road connections and everything and that also has relatio- er er relations with the with the forest sector so wood-based fuel is increasingly replaced by fossil fuel mainly liquid er gas er an- and that is a develo- development that we have to co- consider and take more and more into account [er as well] </S13>
<S7> [er sorry] i didn't hear why was sudan cut out of the for ten years out of the er [(xx)] </S7>
<S13> [it was] on the wrong side in the gulf war <SU> oh </SU> simply as simple as that <S18> politics </S18> so so so it was a decision that immediately al- almost overnight cut sudan out from the world community we felt it very much in in our our institute because er we were informed that the 11 million finn mark that were promised to our our institute were withdrawn <SU> [ah] </SU> [we had] er of because of this unfortunately the foreign ministry in finland made the wise decision that the money that was saved from forestry corporations was directly given to us for training sudanese in finland , doctor <NAME S18> is one of those who benefited for this sudden change so he's one of the few who benefited from the global political conflict but <SS> @@ </SS> but that was very very very very serious but er the good thing is that we were because of this training programme for sudanese in finland er between 92 an- and 98 so we were able to train sudanese people here and we maintained the contact all the rest of the world closed the door to to sudan but our institute and our university was able to to continue that's why we are known in sudan our institute because of this continuity and sudan for us is a very special case but it was global politics simply the answer to that , but but that also meant our connection meant that the er er er development aid that finland had given to sudan that wa- was one of the biggest if not the biggest recipient of forest sector aid from finland sudan so they could continue that programme even when the contacts officially were were cut because of the research cooperation research cooperation replaced the earlier development cooperation but now it's going back finland the EU everybody is trying to help sudan in the post-war reconstruction <COUGH> , then one more thing before we continue the discussion sudan is a good example on positive development in the forest sector , believe it or not sudan has a more progressive <COUGH> forest policy than most af- asian countries , africa in general i- ha- is is ha- has done much african countries but if you compare to asia no organisation or legislation reform no er e- efficient forest policies but african countries they already have it , why that would be an interesting topic for discussion bu- but that seems to be the case <P:07> okay er well <NAME S18> why not you you have a few comments if you </S13>
<S18> yes first i would like to thank the speakers , for for the thorough (xx) that they have provided er there is some small small things like like when they showed the one of the slides that all all at least some of the arrows lead to poverty , poverty (xx) that was , and i think poverty is is is not only , a result but also a cause some some some of the arrows was some of the arrows must (goes) from poverty to other but like also affecting the management of those sources affecting water affecting so many other things so not only arrows (was to) lead to poverty but there are they increase poverty also somehow affecting the the the the the other other other factors so this is one of the (obvious) point , the issue of in fact the issue of of the land tenure is quite crucial at least how i see it because this might lead to (xx) then there this might give something that aren't (released) at all for for that there is no really (distant) land with land the land almost like owned by the government and that that also part of of of if if if it's part of the cause of the conflict in africa because the land is used and it's owned by the government then the government has some time to distribute land or divide land to those who are vulnerable as as a kind of of pay back some loyalty you are loyal to the government then you are getting some land that is also part of the problem issues you have to to to keep in mind the the other the other also the other thing is that there was in the past there these local traditional administration in the western sudan which is like kind of tribal , the government is is stronger than the government their presence is str- was stronger than the government in western sudan but since the 70s the government decided to to replace those tradition- local traditional leaders by government offices and this is also kind of it's it was not like done abruptly without kind of transitional thing and and many of those that are are like retaliating against the government by by by trying to , to to to make the people against to work against the government because they are still having some kind of power in their tribes the the one one point before i forget i think the the issue of decentralisation was also important but in forestry is still not yet settled yes there are 25 26 states each is that is now having like kind of autonomy but what about forestry is it still central what do they (buy) it this is even the logic of of the central administration in forestry they said not to divide the woods the trees but to divide the revenue , that comes from forestry to the states but the whole management of course remains in the centre , and what is still a very contradicting issue between the state an- and the government and even some states they won't think of of the forest the central policy officers in (xx) , because they think that like now why do you cut down all forest so there is a conflict and these these kind of things need to be resolved and the FSC must understand that yes this is (xx) for us and maybe separating the the the management from from from the policy an- and other issues could help solving the problem because the state the states they think that the the central administration they are eating somehow the revenue from the forest because it was not sure that it will go for salaries for cars for what what for for management and the the the what remains as benefit would be very low , and then the government the states they decide that okay take your staff out we will we will recruit our own persons that that is how the trend is going , there's in some states they say no we don't want any kind of central influence central <SIC> interventing </SIC> in our own (forests) we our going to recruit our own foresters for management of (xx) state (forests) and it still is debatable kind of i think </S18>
<S13> and please notice the an- er and try to understand what is er the under the concept of forest reserve natural forest reserve all forest is government-owned by law but but there are different degrees of ownership and forest reserve is land where you have the state ownership and the state management on the rest you have state ownership but the state is not managing it but the forest reserves by law are not only state property but also strictly under state management and should it be the the federal state or the local er er state then then that that is a manager this is now the big conflict issue </S13>
<S18> yes and many of the people they they they now try to be the central FSC central forest administration towards just holding or managing protected forest not productive forest everybody that can that generates very little revenue must be under the control of central administration because this is not the kind of protected by law against facing the the the desertification in the government-owned area or maybe along the river banks and things like that they still they think that this is like yes the forest central forestry must become like kind of ministry of defence <S13> mhm </S13> against the parliament and they must take hold of [(xx)] </S18>
<S13> [and remember] the reserve forest area's only in the range of 10 million hectares four per cent of the forestry </S13>
<S18> one small point is is the issue also of of fire that is i agree that is that is that is part in in the in the overgrazing but the other part is the exceeding the carrying capacity of the (rain) land and that is well because of the improved veterinary services many people they believe that those who are earlier having 10 cattles now they are would like to have 200 and that i- that's the main the ma- the main reas- overgrazing too much too much animals in the same piece or unit of land and that it w- without the the the the improvement in the veterinary services that is not (caught) with the improvement in the (rain) itself so there is a deterioration of precipitation in the rain land including forestry forestries </S18>
<S13> and people need water when you make a new bore hole so so you'll have more damage because you'll have more cattle because of that additional water it on- it only wor- worsens the situation to make water available unfortunately </S13>
<S18> and also this link with the land tenure and tree tenure some people become (xx) land has (owned by the state) but the tenure the trees are owned by some other people either traditional local leaders or some other people so it's still there is this issue of land tenure and tree tenure and it probably the act of 1989 has tried to solve this problem those who own the land have the right to own the trees because earlier if you need to cut the tree in your own land then you're (xx) , and it still this is going on in some other places there is no way to trust any authorities , and this we should need to consider this [(xx)] </S18>
<S13> [and then] the the ethnic diversity and the different traditions also related to the forest and tree ownership a- among these groups 200 or more se- ethnic groups in sudan more than 200 groups and as many languages , not no that is not true because half of the groups they speak arabic one could say </S13>
<S18> i think almost all sudanese even the southerners they speak the the the their language of communication is arabic or several kind of arabic some people they call it juba arabic which is a little bit not like the arabic in the north but still [(it's arabic) (xx)] </S18>
<S13> [so basically] you have two languages you know arabic and then you have your tribal er er fo- for [much of the population] </S13>
<S3> [how how many] people have have other language as native the first language </S3>
<S18> i think the languages (xx) like about more than 400 </S18>
<S3> yes but how many have as mother tongue something else than arabic </S3>
<S18> mhm </S18>
<S13> at least one third </S13>
<S18> at least one third [yes] </S18>
<S13> [at least] one between one third and half of the [population] </S13>
<S18> [yes] </S18>
<S3> even in the north there are this berbera language [too] </S3>
<S18> [yes] but many of them they communicate in arabic when they when they move from one area to the other then they the common language is arabic from south to [north] </S18>
<S13> [and] we have the confusing terminology here also everyone who speaks arabic is not an arab you know you <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [can't] like not everyone who speaks english is an englishman so so there's a big confusion here when you read the the news </S13>
<S18> and then er maybe going to the last the the the adopted world bank other other organisation in 86 this what kind of sector approach in the forestry and that is that kind of approach is is is i don't know we need we need to to reconsider planning forestry in an isolation of other sectors in at least that if you look at the world bank report it's only forestry even if there's very little mentioning of other other other sectors forestry and energy and things like that but we need to have kind of holistic holistic approach to to to to for for for planning either to to plan like sector-wide and then at the at the end after the kind of of comprehensive planning linking of the different sectors trying to harmonise because (of that arise) from each sector and work towards kind of a development (xx) for the whole country otherwise er people will er er will will only sectors will will will plan their things on their own and that will contradict the policy of other sectors which is quite often now it's happening in sudan <P:10> and the the the issue of of of the collaborated forest management my own personal view i guess for the time being i've (xx) this kind of activity because in the past (xx) until the 80s there's only the stronghold of the government on the land of the forest but now from the 80s there's communities start to come in trying to get share in in in the in the in the forest but i think this is it's still a bit bit kind of of of step a step towards privatisation i myself i think that yes let's now carry this collaborative (revenue) but aiming that at the end to those communities the land will be divided to the small farmers to the landless farmers and this is there is there is no need to (stop) for for the government to stay there and this is a forest which is nearby the the the villages and there are landless people so why why there is why the government why they (xx) can't see what the government would like to have some contribution some benefit from that er the government is for people if you want the please the people to make them happy and to (xx) give them the land </S18>
<S13> and the question becomes even more interesting if you consider that there are no trees on that land on that forest land often </S13>
<S18> and good legislation puts the law there yes and gives you five hectares of land but in terms you plant every year until you have trees and each year i could come and pick anybody if you don't plant the trees i will take the land from you put the land put the law put the legislation but give the land to to the people and there is no need for for for the government to get benefit and the benefit goes normally to the centre and those people in the rural area they are suffering so this is just like kind of thinking loud with you and but there's quite a lot that people can't really see in in in in the in the role of implementation of the NFP in sudan since 1932 and there's every five 10 years there's a new happening [(xx)] </S18>
<S13> [so let's] ask the group your view on private ownership on forest land , you do you recommend it to the president can we send your recommendations or </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS10> yeah i think it's very important because er it does many different things er if you look in the tropic forest in the in when there's er like er in indonesia in this we were talking i think in this class i heard this in the areas where somebody actually owns the land and if there's a big fire that comes through or whatever their little plot of land will be okay and everything else will be burned down or that's where all the legal harvesting doesn't happen on their little plot of land so it does many many things and many ways to have this privatisation but you had this nice suggestion i just wanted to say that you suggested that er they ha- they get the land and they have to plant 25 yea- trees every year bu- and somebody has to come and make sure that they do that but i think that's one of the biggest problems even if you have really nice policy you still have to have somebody coming there and and making sure that the policy is working or letting people know about the policy and i think that's really really hard to do in a lot of developing nations because that takes a huge amount of money to have people coming and [making sure (xx) yeah] </NS10>
<S13> [maybe that's the only solution] in finland if you cut the trees someone will come and check what you do there <SU> yeah </SU> so so that is a normal practice </S13>
<NS10> but it's i- th- it's very easy because there's infrastructure here and there's a lot of money to pay for people to come and make sure but there the infrastructure is being developed now in sudan <S18> [the- the-] </S18> [so that people] can move around more quickly </NS10>
<S18> normally there is NFC police in each i would say each five hectares there's someone who works for NFC [(xx)] </S18>
<S13> [and we are] only talking about the re- reserve forest land four per cent of the forest land rest is er on the rest of the land com- communal management is is recognised and the communities in principle are free to divide it at least with the future legislation that can be privatised but we are now talking about the reserve forest land er er which is a big problem of course also a big challenge big promise but that's the only part of the land where the government can be an active er er factor </S13>
<S18> and and they kind of (xx) to you of course they can stop with this (xx) the rest of sudan that is some some of these airports you see (xx) peace and that is easily to be distributed the (rural) people are not willing (xx) in any case for the peace so that could could start like yes in this in this area there is no need for gov- for for NFC or for the government to be there they can distribute the land to the farmers and and and the local officials there are no keen than the government to keep the peace (you have to go out) more and that could be a starting point </S18>
<S13> and then maybe <NAME S3> could comment on on on er on the value of demonstration areas where people could come and see what the results are under different management regimes would you recommend that </S13>
<S3> yeah , maybe but i don't really know such a place at the moment where you have it so clearly i i mean there are certain problems also in the model that that you presented because i i'm also little bit involving that of course i know a little bit more about it but it's it would be important and i think this kind of process for instance that i am producing a valuation process that that kind you can have in many places in the normal villages along the whole nile so so of course it could be valuable but i would like to comment on certain other things that <NAME S18> still h- hasn't comment @yet@ on that that is that first of all this presentation was very good again an- and er the unfortunate fact is that i have also quite a lot of information about sudan f- from your point of view so so i have still some comments to make er there was nothing mentioned about this north south se- er separation in in this er presentation there there has been a for 25 years a separation of the south from the north and in the south you still have quite a lot of forests , in fact i have been told that people that walk in this nomad land for instance get lost in the savannah vegetation it's so dense that also the locals are are lost and die there because they they cannot find their way out and in the south you have er mahogany and teak plantations that are over-matured so there are oversized trees there and now they are er considering how to harvest these an- and building up an industry the main problem has been the mines in the forest so you cannot walk around in the forest there now and and also lack of of roads infrastructure so so it has been difficult to transport the logs to some industrial er enterprise or some place for even for export , also related to the ground cover what is forest land i think that criteria is fine but the criteria about five metre height mhm that has nothing to do with your presentation but generally in in the dry areas it's quite common that the trees are not five metre tall but still it would be important to include that land as forest land normally prosopis for instance grow to maybe three four metres or something like that but never gets taller , en- environmental sector you have a high formation high cou- higher council for environment and reconstruction or something like that an- and you have an environmental action plan but this environmental action plan it's a very good paper but it's just on paper there's no money to implement it so this is also part of the problem that that other ministries are not recognising it it doesn't have any power to to do anything and environmental issues are divided under many ministries and they have different legislation which is overlapping and is not kind of adjusted to each other so it's very difficult in the field to to know who is actually responsibl- er responsible for for this or for that in the area an- and that has not been sorted out even in in the village properly i think , er there are also some very good examples of traditional forest er forest policies and land tenure for instance from juba mountains there are some tribes that used to have very good system there chieftains and everything and but that has been kind of overruled all the time so th- this kind of policies have been forgotten but maybe they could have some still some impact in building up the </S3>
<S13> is it juba or nuba juba </S13>
<S3> er was it [juba] </S3>
<S18> [mhm no] (xx) </S18>
<S3> no maybe nuba yeah <S13> nuba </S13> yeah <S13> [okay] </S13> [sorry] okay then still about the prosopis issue er this decree er was turning around the situation that was building up that prosopis was being promoted by the foresters and so on so in fact a lot of foresters lost their face because of this decree and they're still recovering from that and then you can see when you go to foresters doing extension work that they they still are afraid because of that and also N- NGOs that used to promote er prosopis they they also have a little bit lo- lost their touch sometimes when you go in the field , i i mean their their personal er commitment how they promote trees , okay then maybe that was most of it </S3>
<S13> thank you <NAME S3> and please notice this very important point that was now mentioned here in any er in all of forestry planning that you have you have to include the forest product that come from land that is not forest this is a paradoxical situation but it is true in in there are cou- in these countries it may be that most of the forest products come from outside the forest and we have to remember this basic fact to be able to plan it properly so in the case of sudan it may be bush land it is not technically defined as forest but it's important maybe the the most important source for forest product they are forest product even if they don't come from forest by definition you are allowed you have to look it this way also trees on farms provide you with forest product but they don't come from a forest so it's it's extremely important to realise this er <NAME S1> you have maybe some you have the final word [or final comment] </S13>
<S1> [y- yeah] very short i i first of all i like my colleagues also it was really very nice er presentation for three reasons first they put the numbers into perspective like the size of one million hectare they compared it to finland and the others that was a good point because it's so hard to grasp when somebody tells you that there is this much ton of carbon is released what does it mean in in reality so that was a good point and then you had big letters and maps and pictures which makes it visually pleasant so er that's just a general comment but coming er i haven't been been to sudan so i i don't know so but i- just i have two er two general one point and two questions for you small just minor and one point which <NAME S18> er raised is overgrazing in the drylands where the ca- the caring capacity is low and productivity is low er so overgrazing is a real problem this is what is saw in also in ethiopia is is yeah so tha- that's a a point just which cannot be overemphasised just to support <NAME S18> 's point and but my question is first you defined er you mentioned these usufruct rights you didn't explain them so that's one the first one question </S1>
<S9> er usufruct [rights] </S9>
<S13> [usufruct] that on your first slide <S1> [yeah] </S1> [that's] an important term <S1> [it is important] </S1> [a difficult] word but try to remember it usufruct </S13>
<NS10> [on the first slide] </NS10>
<S1> [maybe she] </S1>
<S14> no no it's not here [(xx)] </S14>
<S7> [is it the tenure] </S7>
<S1> yeah in the tenure </S1>
<S7> <NAME S9> 's [first one] </S7>
<SU> [first one] </SU>
<S14> yeah [(xx)] </S14>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<S14> (xx) </S14>
<S7> [so] </S7>
<NSU-10> [so] </NSU-10>
<SU-7> have you [seen] </SU-7>
<S13> [land] [tenure] </S13>
<S14> [those are] yeah usufruct [so] </S14>
<S13> [yeah] usufruct rights </S13>
<S9> yeah usufruct rights may be for example who can take water from from some area or some (xx) land w- who can pass there or who can er ag- who can practice agriculture or </S9>
<S13> in finnish <FOREIGN> käyttöoikeus </FOREIGN> <SS> (xx) </SS> and you can have registered usufructs <S1> yeah </S1> they can be re- legally registered so you don't own the land but you have a usufruct </S13>
<S1> yeah it is er usually you can't if i understood right you cannot sell it <SU> mhm </SU> just (have right to) u- usage yeah just because it's important concept that's why i </S1>
<S18> i think it's the kind of agreement between the owner and the user either to be a subsidy (kind) maybe or or or money are normally subsidy (kind) probably like renting and it's i think it's called in this part is (xx) and (xx) one tenth the user pay one tenth to the owner of the (product agreement) from from from using his land or her land </S18>
<S13> yeah these land ownership matters are full of interesting terms that you have to <S1> mhm </S1> to know sometimes you get lost confused <S1> yes </S1> but er <NAME S15> you had a [question] </S13>
<S15> [er is this] somehow related to the common property right or (could you explain that) </S15>
<SU-7> [it's] </SU-7>
<S13> [no they] are different <NSU-10> [(xx)] </NSU-10> [co-] er you er maybe it's it's too complicated to to present here briefly usufructs they are individual ri- of course they may be communal also <S15> okay </S15> but we mostly are referring to to individual rights individual families who have a usufruct right to something to land to to tree resources <S15> okay </S15> to something then we have communal ownership then we have er er then then we have er state ownership and then we have er commons which in strict sense aren't owned by nobody not even the state remember there is land that is owned by nobody that's a legal concept also it makes the situation very compli- even in finland we have land that is not even owned by the state that is no- nobody's land so from the legal perspective that becomes very impor- in- interesting </S13>
<BS17> is it free reach is it the same as free reach </BS17>
<S13> er i would guess so we have to consult legal e- expert to make sure but i'm almost sure it is <BS17> okay </BS17> free reach an- and an- and commons , common land which is different from communal or state , and public land that is also different from common land so so these are legal er er er things that that we have to keep in mind but one more thing </S13>
<S1> one m- one more just one more question because you de- dealt with drylands the question comes is the desertification have you had er time to look at desertification convention and how it is er incorporated into the national er forest programme and what is the situation as far as desertification goes i- in sudan just </S1>
<SU-8> i didn't (xx) do you </SU-8>
<SU-9> no i didn't read it (xx) </SU-9>
<NS10> we didn't we didn't look at this convention but er </NS10>
<S7> the one of the erm documents you sent to me i didn't have a i didn't have a look at it but it was about a first report of sudan involved with er the con- the convention and combating er desertification so there there is a document or such document </S7>
<S13> and basically all countries have prepared their action plans <SS> mhm </SS> so sudan also has fulfilled that obligation but maybe this enou- is enough we have already exceeded our time sorry about that do you need can we have shorter than one hour so that we meet half past one is it possible , no objections half past one we continue </S13>
<45 MIN BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<S13> er where is <NAME S5> </S13>
<SU> she's coming </SU>
<BS17> she's er trying to <S1> [photo copy] </S1> [(xx)] yeah photo copy </BS17>
<S13> er w- well we can wait that cannot take so much time <P:07> and who else [is missing] </S13>
<S12> [number five] is also er number one of them whatever </S12>
<S14> how many people you have , five </S14>
<S12> er <NAME S6> is <S14> [six] </S14> [also] somewhere <S14> you have six </S14> so <NAME S6> is also copying </S12>
<BS17> yes they were both there </BS17>
<S13> e- efficient work to the last moment to the last minute <SS> @@ </SS> i guess you have been working day and night </S13>
<SU-4> [you are right] </SU-4>
<BS17> [yes of course] </BS17>
<S13> yes [@@] </S13>
<SU-4> [@@] </SU-4>
<S13> we wait four minutes and if they don't come we we start </S13>
<P:32>
<S13> did i give that title to you </S13>
<REFERRING TO THE TITLE ON POWERPOINT SLIDE>
<BS17> yes </BS17>
<SU-4> yes </SU-4>
<S13> because normally you say forest sector not forestry sector </S13>
<BS17> [forest] </BS17>
<S19> [ah yeah] </S19>
<SU-4> okay </SU-4>
<S19> forest sector </S19>
<S13> it's my mistake it's my mistake only because forest sector i can explain it that is then understood in a way in a broader sense than forestry a forest sector can can include something that is strictly speaking not forestry but still related to forest so that's the the normal term is forest sector </S13>
<BSU-17> uh-huh </BSU-17>
<PEOPLE ENTERING, P:07>
<S19> hey <NAME S13> what is there any difference forest products forest products company and forestry company </S19>
<S13> no no they can u- they can both can words can be used but but increasingly we use forest instead of forestry <S19> [yeah] </S19> [it's] a finnish forest research not forestry research institute and european forest research institute in joensuu </S13>
<S12> european forest institute [no research] </S12>
<S13> [forest] institute <S12> [yeah] </S12> [yes] an- an- and then er what else national forest programme not forestry programme </S13>
<SU-19> okay </SU-19>
<S13> in finnish it doesn't make any difference because it's always <FOREIGN> metsä </FOREIGN> but in english you change between forest and forestry </S13>
<NS10> i think that when i hear forestry sector i really think of production <S13> yeah </S13> it's really production [oriented] </NS10>
<S13> [yeah] and forest sector er [conservation you know everything] </S13>
<NS10> [but i don't think of it (xx) very much] yeah [yeah it's forestry definitely] </NS10>
<S3> [it is true so that (xx)] </S3>
<SU-19> do you have this (xx) </SU-19>
<SU> yeah (xx) </SU>
<P:05>
<S13> so two more minutes then we start <P:09> or shorter would be f- i i would correct if that was a title of thesis thesis it would be forest sector development in thailand that's [(xx)] </S13>
<S19> [yeah] </S19>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S12> we are entering in the realm of semantics </S12>
<BSU-17> [forest sector] </BSU-17>
<SU-4> [forest sector] development </SU-4>
<S13> and the linguist probably er er want you to have a dash forest dash sector development but that is then a question of er , dash without er [space] </S13>
<S19> [without] [er space] </S19>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S13> @now we@ </S13>
<NS10> now it's no longer your title it's somebody else's </NS10>
<S13> no this is how i correct theses </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<SU-14> the picture should be smaller @@ </SU-14>
<PRESENTERS DISCUSSING IN FINNISH, P:10>
<S19> depending (xx) but they are coming (xx) </S19>
<S13> so i promised that we now now start so the the handouts are are still <S19> [on the way] </S19> [coming] on the way but if we now er er give the the the group and this is group number three the last group and they are taking us now to to humid more humid tropics and also to to asia with focus on on a- asia so <NAME BS17> and other others please the floor is yours </S13>
<BS17> thank you <NAME S13> so erm already professor has er telling there a bit about our our story so i think er our our erm presentation is going to be a bit funny because initially there are (xx) kind of questions so maybe er somewhere i (xx) everybody should feel free to comment and er ask questions and those kind of so er our topic for the day which is er is forest sector development in thailand and our group supposed to be the largest group which comprises me my name is <NAME BS17> and <NAME S5> er she's outside <NAME S4> sitting down there and <NAME S6> is outside and </BS17>
<SU-14> [everybody is out] </SU-14>
<BS17> [<NAME S19>] is here so er , i'm going to talk , as and er to begin the whole process by giving you the introduction and the background overview a brief one because er er <NAME> has has already talked about thailand so er but for the benefit of those who were not here during the course we are going to begin by giving overview introduction and the background and then the other speakers will deep go down deep into details to specific points so er i will be talking about introduction and materials and methods which comprises the study area and the land use (xx) the rest and then erm other group members will talk about national forest policy and legislation and then all this stuff i have been (xx) so i'll begin by the overview brief overview so er we have some pictures from the internet so we adapted and then somehow modified some of them so this shows er such an area in thailand and you can see the rate of deforestation er tree cuttings and the rest (that are there) so here you can see that er (it talks about) for the last decades probably about 30 years ago and there has been er this percentage of expanding degradated forest in asia and pacific regions so it's (xx) over 40 per cent of degradation so you can see how we all should be concerned about . so the introduction continues so here it's it's it's been estimated that between 1960 and 1990 we have er over 20 per cent which is mhm er in millions in millions of hectares tropical forest being degraded so we have about 33 per cent in asia alone and then 18 per cent in africa and latin america so we are talking about tropical rainforest here , and then this destruction is according to the estimates still going on so we don't know when it's going to be er stopped so then it continues so but here gives us er diverse and complex interrelated causes causing this degradation so we have the immediate cause , immediate causes , and then underlying causes in terms of degradation forest degradation so under the immediate causes we have uncontrolled logging what is er er what can be cateris- categorised in- into in terms of thailand case and then we have a- shifting i mean agriculture sector which we have shifting cultivation and cash crop and then cattle ranching so in that sense it's also peculiar to thailand issue and there we have forest fires which is also er peculiar to thailand the fuelwoods mining industry so this picture shows er also we got it from here F-A-O it shows er some part in northern thailand i think it's <PLACE NAME> area something like that so it's er the picture is is not good quality mhm but is shows some kind of degradation forest degradation so then underlying causes we have development and over-consumption so here we put emphasise that that is the main basis of er degradation so if you could shift a bit from over-consumption and development to more (xx) i think that you could reduce the impacts so then it continues poverty the role of poverty and population debt burden exploitation by (xx) this is supposed to be a whole topic of research because of the interest is supposed to be high (xx) developing countries in particular thailand forestry sector so we continue so here gives us er background of thailand so it says here that over 50 per cent forest cover er was recorded during 30 years as being degraded so here in around 1961 we have about 53 o- er percentage of forest cover so if you see the 30-year span how much we have now here we have about 26 so reduced almost half so in terms of million hectares it's like that 13.67 and then between 1978 1976 and 78 we have average annual rate of degradation forest er cover degradation as 2.26 per cent and that was a peak year of where the whole er forest degradation period was er at i- its highest point and then so er this in 1989 we had 0.8 er 0.08 per cent of forest cover er degradation and so doubt was where they introduced this logging ban so-called logging ban in thailand and also after the logging ban this was er it still continues so we have about 0.655 per cent which is the annual erm average rate after the ban so erm now we are coming to where we can locate thailand and its er other aspects so thailand is we have a huge world map here and er our (xx) here this tiny thailand being located here so we have erm myanmar [on the] </BS17>
<S13> [er] <COUGH> just for the , mhm well , clarity call it burma i i recommend </S13>
<BS17> okay </BS17>
<S13> yeah </S13>
<BS17> yeah so we have burma here on the north is it north er is it <SIC> north-western </SIC> or north-eastern <SU> @@ </SU> north-western part and there we have laos there vietnam here cambodia here and then there we have gulf of thailand which is surrounded by the south and malaysia somewhere here so erm the thailand area is about f- f- 514,000 kilometr- square kilometres the capital is bangkok the population as of 2006 estimate is about er slightly over or (xx) er over er 64 million so and then their clima- climate they have two climatic conditions so er they have er the whole climate condition is tropical but they they have two <SIC> seasonals </SIC> and that in tropical conditions raining er raining period which starts from mid-may to september and then the dry cool period will start from november to mid-march so two rainy s- er two <SIC> seasonals </SIC> conditions but one climatic condition </BS17>
<S13> and the third third season between from march to may the hot season yeah </S13>
<BS17> yeah o- okay so it's three seasons </BS17>
<S13> three seasons </S13>
<BS17> okay so it's three seasons er as he pointed out , i'm sorry so erm (xx) so then here (he) talks about the land use pattern so here we as he said that all the forest lands is er belongs to the state and then there's the er the origin of thai thai people is a bit kind of erm we don't we don't have we have a little knowledge about that so but according to the information we have er it is believed that the archeological sites in the north-eastern part is about 5000 years ago shows some kind of erm rice cultivation and bronze casting so they were using bronze for er so many things so then it shows that the the there's the evidence of migration because of the the the ethnic groups and the language is a mixture of those things so it's there is evidence which shows some kind of migration so erm and then there there's evidence showing er succession of historical succession of succession of tribal groups control which er (xx) because thailand is a monarchy and it's interesting it's the only only country which was not colonised so there have been that kind of monarchy system and then the so the monarchy system is there and they have the traditional erm ruling i would say traditional democratic systems because er over there which there's evidence showing these things and then they have so we er the predominant occupation is farming and er it's estimated of to be 78 per cent of the population so that 78 per- per cent of the population practise farming systems so and then we have administrative regions five administrative regions and then , 76 province in western thai language is called <FOREIGN> chang wad </FOREIGN> and then one 716 districts and also in the thai language it's called amphoe </BS17>
<S13> no amphoe <CORRECTING BS17's PRONUNCIATION> </S13>
<BS17> amphoe </BS17>
<S13> amphoe </S13>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<BS17> so wrong pronunciation @@ so here i will leave the floor to the next speaker will talk about the historical er outlook of er forest development in thailand </BS17>
<S19> so coming the history outlook of the forest development in thailand and we look the the one year's period a 100 years the (xx) 100 years so they have four stages according to the master plan which finnish finla- finland made for thailand so the first stage is it's early exploitation stage this is from middle 19- eight- 1890s and to the earlier 1930s logging for commercial purpose they are start to realise the trees can make money so they start to expo- explo- er export and also start er cutting the trees the degradation of the forest starts , the second stage is forest exploitation and management stage and this is from the early 19- er 30s and early 1960s so logging become very important econo- eco- economic for er the building for the buildings let's say the the ecomo- -nomical GDP is de- depended on it so that time also significantly deforest , the third stage is forest exploitations peak and decline stage so from 60s to 80s and the the logging peak is ca- er this expo- ca- e- export-oriented agriculture expanded so that the forest er degraded very quick , the third stage the fourth stage is how to say it's nowadays now and forest exploitation close stage and the dawning of a new forest era so from later 1980s the highly developed the forests er rainforests and also awareness research for new forest agenda </S19>
<S14> by the way what is TFSMP </S14>
<BS17> er so it's er thai forest sector [master plan] </BS17>
<S19> [master plan] </S19>
<S14> thai forest what </S14>
<S13> [thai forest sector master plan] </S13>
<BS17> [thai forest sector master plan] </BS17>
<S19> [sector master plan] </S19>
<S14> what (xx) </S14>
<S13> master [plan] </S13>
<BS17> [master] [plan] </BS17>
<S19> [master] plan </S19>
<BS17> so we continue er about forest type distribution in thailand so er a post- (xx) about 33 per cent <S14> @@ </S14> of dry hill mos- moist evergreen forest so we can see this is (xx) well er [and then] </BS17>
<S13> [so please] for clarification it's evergreen forest but it may be dry evergreen hill evergreen or moist evergreen but all is evergreen </S13>
<BS17> and then we have 22 per cent of mixed forest so (xx) comprises a lot of (xx) evergreen (in the last) (xx) </BS17>
<S13> meaning they would normally call it mixed [deciduous] </S13>
<BS17> [mi- mixed] [de- deciduous] </BS17>
<S13> [mixed] deciduous forest , [(xx)] </S13>
<BS17> [and 31] per cent of dry dipterocarp in drier areas and then the re- the remaining forest then includes the primary er mangroves and pine forest so this is pine forest the the picture has (xx) the the F-O-R over there </BS17>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<BS17> right so er so er this is a bit kind of statistics er so we just try to er give you o- overview of forest cover in world forest cover in 2000 and then the thai thai situation here so during 19- ni- 1900s from 1900s coming er the forest cover was about 75- 70 per cent so there you can see how the changes is occurred and how how how far they reach is so around 1960s it came down to 53 per cent and then during 85 to roughly 30 per cent and then 89 so this is where the we have the logging ban around this period so we have er 20 roughly 28 per cent </BS17>
<S13> but tell me why has it increased up to 30 </S13>
<BS17> up to 30 </BS17>
<S13> yeah </S13>
<BS17> er i think because of the current er er er erm </BS17>
<S13> logging ban </S13>
<BS17> logging ban is one [then] </BS17>
<S14> [plantation] </S14>
<BS17> what </BS17>
<S14> (xx) plantation is one </S14>
<BS17> yeah bec- i think plantation is going already in this one </BS17>
<S19> this is because <S13> [okay] </S13> [there] are forest er poli- er policy and legislations and also from (xx) [(xx)] </S19>
<S13> [that is yes] exactly that's how it's officially written <S19> yeah </S19> but the real fact is that they have more er accurate measures to measure the forest so they they find more forest cover with the more accurate er er <S14> [er accurate (xx)] </S14> [measurement] so this is the real reason of course officially they say that it's good management and and so but but the real reason is that that they have more er precise measures to identify forestry areas of course they they have some little effect also better management but the main reason is technical </S13>
<BS17> alright so to we continue so er then er this is for another er co-presenter </BS17>
<S4> okay , okay just a few slides about the national forest policy and legislation in thailand and the current national forest policy was approved in 1985 and before that there was no clear policy erm the aim of the national forest policy was er that the er long term coordinated national forest administration and develop- development would be achieved and as well that there would be better understanding between state and private sectors , and also the target has been to ensure national and social benefits and also national security and then here are according to F-A-O here are some guidelines of their national forest policy and anyway they have the emphasis on cooperation between the government and private owners and the so-called private sector and they also encourage (planting of fo- production) forests and promote reforestation and also raise awareness of sustainable forest management and also affect attitudes and these are also pretty much the same they are listed there so you can read it , okay and then the national forest policy hasn't been able to stop er deforestation completely and that's why the forest thai forest sector master plan was started in 1991 and it hasn't it hasn't been actually formally completed yet but it has affected the forest policy and and here you can see some objections that should be updated and for example the trend of degradation should be reversed and promotion promo- promoting social justice in forestry development should be also embed- improved and rehabilitating deteriorated watersheds so pre- er so pretty much like er the aim is to get like more sustainable forest forest management and also also take , sorry @@ , i think we won't go more more into details with this one because <NAME> 's presentation al- already covered this quite well so but anyway the aim of the master plan is to encourage bottom-up planning but NGOs have criticised the plan that it it really doesn't help that much and it still is like more up-down planning and that's one of the reason why why the process have been so slow the implemen- -mentation process , okay and the then some words about forest legislation and the royal forest department was established in 1986 er sorry in <SS> [@@] </SS> [@1896@] and before that the land was owned by king but anyway the people were allowed to use it for cultivation purposes and local chiefs were in control of the land and when the commercial value of especially teak forest in the north increased the government wanted to do something to control harvesting and that's why er royal forest department was established and but anyway they didn't have any control over other than teak forests before 1913 er when the forest <SIC> conversation </SIC> act [divid-] </S4>
<S13> [conservation] sorry </S13>
<S4> conservation sorry <SS> [@@] </SS> [@er divided@] the forestry species into reserved and unreserved classes but anyway the species in the latter class so unreserved classes they could still be utilized and exploited by anyone quite freely so it doesn't have much effect effect on that one and nowadays er here are the main forestry-related legislation in thailand so there are forest act and then national park act and then national forest reserve act and wildlife preservation and protection act and forest plantation act also known as re-affo- re-afforestation act and also environmental promotion act and here is something about the forest forest act and it was established in 1941 and amended in 1989 and it covers basically all the logging and collection of non-wood forest products but anyway the definition of the forest was very broad so it like included almost every land that was wasn't under any other any other how do you say that @@ </S4>
<BSU-17> (xx) </BSU-17>
<S4> any land land acts or like any land that wasn't under any other land acts , and then there was the national park act in 1961 which aims at protecting areas in national park and in the inside the (boundaries) and it's very strict act so it doesn't allow any almost any use of natural resources at all and it was al- it was also the first act which had special emphasis on natural <SIC> conversation </SIC> aspects </S4>
<S13> conservation </S13>
<S4> conservation @sorry@ </S4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S13> you have put it with purpose @<S4> [@yeah@] </S4> [so that we] would (xx)@ </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<SU-14> (xx) </SU-14>
<S4> okay , and then there was the national forest reserve act and which is more well it is it isn't as strict as the national park act and it was amended in 1985 er at the same time when the new forest policy was launched and it took into conser- cons- @consideration@ people inhabiting degraded areas but however still the cutting of trees and collection of fore- forest products and cultivation and settling remained prohibited i'm sorry the picture is @quite bad over there sorry@ about that </S4>
<S13> can you identify the animal </S13>
<S4> yeah it's barking deer </S4>
<S13> barking deer the muntjac </S13>
<S4> yeah we saw those a lot when we were in thailand in field field course , and well anyway the wildlife preservation act protection act in 1960 and it was amended in 1992 and it declares wildlife sanctuaries and there should be no-hunting areas @@ but you can't see it sorry about that , and then there was this er forest plantation act which promotes private forest plantations in degraded reserve forests in order to combat de- deforestation and also environmental promotion act which impr- imp- er which aims at improving and maintaining the quality of environment and er this is also the act that states that every effects environmental effects of projects have to be reported so , and then this national logging ban it was like the logging in natural forests was already forbidden partly in er 1979 because er it was in order to ensure sufficient wood supply in long-term and it was meant to be done by increasing reforestation and also reducing logging by 50 per cent and deforestation is considered to be one of the main reasons for floodings and landslides in late 80s in the south thailand and that's that's one of the main reasons why commercial use of natural forests was completely forbidden in 19- er 1989 and the logging ban has decreased the r- rate of forest loss but deforestation is still a big problem due to for example illegal logging and illegal logging also takes place in neighbouring countries er like because of the like because of the logging ban so that has effected a lot and one of the reasons er maybe decreasing the rate of forest loss was also that er the cro- cash crop also decreased at the same time when the logging ban was established so the logging ban isn't the only reason for that and er it has it has like the logging ban of course it has decreased the rate of forest loss but it has also had some negative impacts because mhm it has caused quite much e- unemployment and also er government has lost some royalties and taxes because of logging ban , and and after the logging ban the community groups in forest management er their role has increased a lot and also the policy focus has changed towards community-based forest management and also the management objectives in natural forests are now officially changed towards <SIC> conversation </SIC> and the commercial exploitation era has ended </S4>
<S6> okay i'm talking about first er protected areas and the protected areas covers about 17 per cent of thailand's national territory and there are er these protected areas consist of national parks wildlife sanctuaries provincial or local government controlled forest parks no-hunting areas and so on and there are 227 protected areas and they are covering 11.3 million hectares mhm and also the national forest reserves are part of the protection sys- system because of this logging ban that <NAME S4> was talking about , mhm in many areas degradation of the conservation values is ongoing (from) agricultural intrusion infrastructure and tourism development illegal logging and wild- wildlife trade er it is anyhow believed that mhm thailand has one of the best protection area network in south-east asia although it consist very little of these lowland evergreen forests and these upland forests are better represent , er only 15 of the country's 103 national parks have a valid management plan and these management plans would be very important er for the effective forest management although er they are not necessary leading to a better protection because of this er lack of imple- implementations and also if communities are excluded from the protected areas there are no interest towards protection and also management plans should be updated because mhm , well they are basically too theoretical and they should be more based on what should actually be done in practice , er , earlier in thai er conservation policy recommended that er the total exclusion of people from protected areas but since that is has become evident that it is not it is no longer possible becau- er because a lot of population is dependent on forest resources and they live inside protected areas , and mhm also conservation NGOs have argued these kind of actions and the key issue would be to balance people's right to the land and tra- traditional resources resource use within the <SIC> conversation </SIC> mhm there are also measures to enlarge protected areas and stop the rotational farming mhm <P:06> er several NGOs are active in these protected areas but anyhow local people continue to manage forests according to traditional skills and knowledge even though it's very often illegally , then just a few words about these cross-boundary issues er there are at least 18 areas protected areas ne- near international borders of th- thailand and that's why it is very important to have cooperation with other countries in protection including bu- buffer zones biological corridors and so on and also in these specific problems like immigration and illegal logging and er there's actually been some informal contacts with myanmar concerning the w- western forest [complex] </S6>
<S13> [i like] more the name burma <S6> [okay] </S6> [because] you you can call it myanmar if we want but this is a then you are supporting the the burma government present government if you call it by that name <SU> @@ </SU> but this is a political many international publications they consistently use the name of burma just to to tell their opinion about the government in that country so this is a political standpoint what name you use you are free to choose </S13>
<S5> what if you want to be neutral </S5>
<S13> there is no er er then you use both names burma which is also called myanmar or the other way <SU-5> [mhm-hm] </SU-5> [round] but of course er er the F-A-O ASEAN other places where the country is present so they are forced to use the new name <SU-5> yes </SU-5> when dealing with that government but otherwise i prefer using the historical name we don't call th- the other country kampuchea either but cambodia so again it's a similar standpoint </S13>
<S6> okay er there are also problems with illegal flow of non-timber products from neighbouring countries to thailand such as agarwood oil and wildli- life products then just a few words about community bill er which is the legislative framework mhm that was initiated in [1993] </S6>
<S13> [community] forestry bill better call <S6> okay </S6> it if you mean it </S13>
<S6> yeah and since that several versions have been [drafted] </S6>
<SU> [what was the bill] </SU>
<S13> community forestry [bill] </S13>
<S6> [but] the approval has been on hold because there has been some difficulties reaching the consensus among the stakeholders and politicians and the views differ especially on a clause that allows community forests in protected areas and er it would be very important to approve this community bill because without it it's very difficult to develop proper principles for community forestry er at present establishment of government-supported community forests is allowed in national forest reserves under formal management by RFD royal forest department and also in some other forests , mhm in thailand about 20 to 25 million people live near er national forest reserves and use them for forest products for both household consumption and th- sell them to get some income and fuelwood and non-timber forest products are important sources for livelihood and it has been said that poverty is the most significant underlying cause for deforestation er in the country . mhm , and there are also er <READING ALOUD> most of the existing community forests are concentrated in the north and northeast regions where the most natural forests are located </READING ALOUD> and there are also a lot of er landless forest dependent people in the north regions and many of them are illegal immigrants and so they have no formal land rights and land use practices and there have has been a lot of criticism by authorities and NGOs er because they say it's the main cause of one of the main cause causes of the deforestation </S6>
<S13> er what is your estimate of the number of minority people in the whole in in the total population can you give a [number] </S13>
<S6> [i don't know] </S6>
<S13> my my guess is five per cent remember it's very small in r- in comparison with some neighbouring countries in laos more than half of the population consist of minority people more than half so so in thailand it's only five per cent the situation is completely different and then five more per cent of muslims er people in in the south but five er per cent of the so-called hill tribes </S13>
<S12> but relatively speaking the the the er the the population in laos is so much smaller in overall that that that that that the the the er the absolute numbers of so-called minorities in thailand may [(xx)] </S12>
<S13> [it's] comparable <S12> yeah </S12> and then one other thing is they are concentrated into r- relative small areas so in places they can even form the majority in thailand the so-called minorities 20 or so ethnic groups </S13>
<S6> mhm at the moment villagers are not allowed to fell or harvest any living trees from natural forests but they may however use the plantations plantation forests to harvest timber and fuelwood and also these non-timber forest products , and it is important to remember that <READING ALOUD> community forests have an important cultural and religious significance for rural people </READING ALOUD> mhm one of the things that has been also said is that <READING ALOUD> one of the main reasons for holding community forestry from developing is the mistrust concerning local communities to manage forests among the government and some NGOs </READING ALOUD> er and they see villagers the main cause of forest de- er degradation , mhm and there are so- also some public support to villagers er royal forest department er is helping <READING ALOUD> distinguish community forest areas and prepare operational plans  </READING ALOUD> and <READING ALOUD> villagers are provided with some basic forestry skills </READING ALOUD> such as nursery establishment planting and maintenance and also fire protection and royal forest department provides also planting materials such as seeds and seedlings and also some other training that is neede- needed er but there is <READING ALOUD> no direct financial support to villages er for community forestry activities </READING ALOUD> and <COUGH> it is good to know that in two decades anyhow only about one per cent of total forests has been brought up to this er community management </S6>
<S13> please er sorry that i interrupt but you see notice here the tremendous the striking difference we have with african tradition and asian tradition in africa it's recognised that communities local communities they are legal if not owners at least managers for the forest resources most of the forest land in sudan most of the forest land in kenya is managed by the communities but not in asia , papua new guinea is the only country in the region which has recognised communal ownership of the natural forests the only country , sorry </S13>
<S6> mhm and it would also be good if the <COUGH> these interventions er would be er integrated into overall planning of community forestry er to make it more effective </S6>
<S5> okay now i'm gonna tell you a little about the plantations in thailand which is er at least in my opinion a very important issue for example now but in the future because these plantations er are likely to expand widely and that's why it's it's should be taken like into conversation also when er talking about forests </S5>
<S13> <NAME S5> can you give an estimate of the total area of plantation just to start with </S13>
<S5> er not the total i have all all the <S13> the range </S13> species </S5>
<S13> are you talking about <S5> [it's] </S5> [10,000] 100,000 [or million hectares] </S13>
<S5> [no it's er] it's about , if according to ITTO it's about three million , [hectares] </S5>
<S13> [okay] including rubber including <S5> [(xx) yes yes] </S5> [rubber it goes up to up to] three million right i was giving thinking of one million of forest plantations but altogether rubber coconut yeah three million </S13>
<S5> so er er to start with the these er first slides concentrate on er timber plantations including rubber so er the i- increase in plantation is mainly because of er the need for wood in thailand also in in overall in the world but if now discussed about thailand and then there's a problem between if you try to implement these plantations er for most of the poor people the poor farmers er the rotation of the er trees for example even eucalyptus which is very fast growing tree even a five year rotation can be too long if you need the income right now and you need food and you need money so that's a one problem and that's why many farmers need agricultural crops to fulfil the income gap and then er there's also some like er real problems like no proper credit is available and the other crops for example agricultural crops they have better markets better like prices and and also some species for for example bamboo if i'm like touching that that now e- even though it's not like a tree but anyways it doesn't have a proper market which could people could benefit from so there's pa- plantation promotion schemes in thailand er in order to achieve this target of 40 per cent tree cover and now i'm gonna discuss about teak eucalyptus rubber er oil palm bamboo and bamboo and then also mangrove forest which are not plantations but anyways and and the most common er species are teak eucalyptus and rubber and and pine plantations but i'm not gonna go into that one now but you should just bear in mind that pines are i think the third one after rubber and teak then there are the other pines and then eucalyptus if considered the total area and then er we go to the rubber and rubber tree here you can see </S5>
<S13> your own picture </S13>
<S5> @yes@ from from thailand from i think it was krabi province i don't remember the village but anyway </S5>
<S13> <VILLAGE NAME> </S13>
<S5> yes i guess it was from there er i think this was er one small farmer that we visited he had er approximately two two hectares or so plantation so it's a typical rubber plantation in thailand and here you can see some basic information where it's originated in amazon and south africa and it has been brought to thailand er o- o- over a 100 years or so </S5>
<S13> the tree comes <S5> [yeah] </S5> [from] the amazon there's not only </S13>
<S5> okay okay and then er since the 60s it's been like very actively promoted and here you can see the current area it's to- about two million hectares and of which 84 per cent are in southern thailand and here you also can understand that most of the plantations are in southern thailand because the pre- protected areas are in the north and there are actually quite a few i don't know if any protected areas in in except one national park in in southern thailand so and here's a er yeah 90 about 90 per cent of these rubber plantations are owned by smallholders and and it's a very big income source and here you can see that er this er rubber tree has been tapped early in the morning i guess we were all supposed to go there early in the morning at five o'clock but somehow </S5>
<S13> we didn't make it @@ </S13>
<S5> we didn't make it there was something weird in everybody's food or so so that we slept a bit longer but anyhow we went there later and we saw that they'd been tapped and the latex is falling to the i i don't know if it's <S13> [coconut shell coconut shell yeah] </S13> [it's plastic it think it's coconut] this one is coconut shell yes so and and you can see there's no- this is like plantation there's no under under like vegetation and these are i guess approximately i don't remember how old they were maybe 30 years or so </S5>
<S13> the trees </S13>
<S5> yeah or no </S5>
<S13> ten years </S13>
<S5> ten years okay </S5>
<S13> ten ten years </S13>
<S5> i yeah okay so so it's it's fast growing also and then something about suppl- supply in thailand it's it's also main source for the industrial timber besides the latex although it's mainly promoted because of the latex and the latex prices have increased in last years er because of the oil price increase also and and that's why even though the yields stay the same then the the money income is stays the same or or even rises but er because of this latex price increase the demand for wood is not fulfilled because er l- less wood goes to the wood companies and to the pulp industry and everything so it's a bit of a problem also because it's the wood is needed also and erm in the north there are also plantations but er not that with not that good yield and the er price coms- compensates that lower yield and it's only 100 days per year the tapping period so also to the other 200 days it would be nice to get some income and that's why the wood sells </S5>
<S13> and please notice that's a huge amount the potential 20 million cubic metres , the the whole finnish production is 60 million so so this is ten times more than was needed when thailand was using its natural forest that was in the range of two million hec- two million cubic metres a year and now the potential is 20 million it cannot be simply utilised so as you say less than 10 million is utilised </S13>
<S5> okay and then some benefits and <SIC> disbenefits </SIC> mostly from @my opinion@ so er benefits of course latex and wood and then the wood is er used for different meanings like furniture et cetera and er also for pulp industry and then labour of course and you can sell the latex and the wood and get income and thailand is a pioneer as as expected in the utilis- utilisation but to my opinion it's monoculture and there if er like established on not degraded land or not bare land if there something else there that has more biodiversity then there is a loss of biodiversity of course and then er inefficient wood production at the moment and and the of course the because of the latex market the wood production depends on it and if you need the wood but the latex sells better then you cannot get the wood and then limited labour because of the well this was said in the i think in the ITTO paper that er it's difficult to get people to work on your plantation if you have a bit bigger one because it's only 100 days and people want more like permanent jobs and they move to cities and and and yeah like more centred areas so it might be difficult to get the labour and not suitable for eating of course @@ if you are like <SU> @@ </SU> @hungry@ and then you need other crops also this is also benefit and a <SIC> disbenefit </SIC> to my opinion and some problems and lessons for the future er it ha- has to be more more like examined an- and the for the wood production it has to be like more probably organised and accelerated tree planting and perhaps , well yeah so that you can get the most benefit if you think economically and then there's a lack of er enough detailed data and and er rules for the log quality if if if er considering the wood and pulp industry an- and then of course cooper- cooperation and then in the future it would be nice of course that if it's if if it's done with together with other crops so it's not that monocultural and then teak er one of the most favoured timbers all over the world we all know teak and we know the value but here we can see that er er the natural area in thailand has has decreased a lot from the 50s from two million hectares to to only 150 hectares and the reasons are pretty obvious and er about 80- 800,000 hectares in 2000 and its rotation is of course longer but there's also shorter rotations for commercial use but for a poor farmer it's too long and shorter rotation of course diminish the quality and here's the big problem as as said already earlier that thailand imports teak from burma laos and indonesia and not <SIC> illegally </SIC> always and some problems and potentials for teak er more research needs to be done and more plantation if we want to like cover the wood wood demand and er basically the same as with the rubber that it has to be like more better organised not only at the national level but at the grassroot level also and there are also some because the teak h- is considered so valuable and it the er overexploitation has been so strong er in the past that it there's strict laws according er teak so these laws might be not like , promote good er i mean they are just strict and and and like normal farmers and other people they have difficulties when ye- dealing with teak [because of those laws] </S5>
<S13> [yeah simply] when you plant a teak tree you are not er cannot be sure you are allowed to harvest it <S5> mhm-hm </S5> the laws are so strict so who wants to plant if you have can't can't be sure that you are allowed also to harvest this is a problem </S13>
<S5> okay now i'm gonna go on a bit faster and eucalyptus er also er lots of lots of plantations but not that much as teak and rubber and er it's very fast growing best strength at the age of er about 14 years and big yields and this is er basically only planted because in in er because of pulp and and also for wood but mainly to pulp industry but it also products er estimated seven million cubic metres of wood and er eucalyptus camaldulensis is the most important species at least in thailand and then <SIGH> again some benefits and <SIC> disbenefits </SIC> it's very rapid growth and very adaptable to er different climates [as well] </S5>
<S13> [er <SIC> disbenefit </SIC>] is not an english word so try to find something else </S13>
<S14> which one </S14>
<S13> er <SIC> disbenefit </SIC> so it's <SU-3> [detriments] </SU-3> [er problems] or detriments or whatever but <S14> oh yeah </S14> yeah </S13>
<S5> okay <SU> [@(xx)@] </SU> [i i didn't] come up that @one myself@ [but (xx)] </S5>
<S13> [it's good to develop the english language] you can always do it </S13>
<S5> yeah of course i can </S5>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S5> er yeah and there's a lots of discussion about the positive and negative effects on environment but i guess there's not proper er like research over that issue so er some people say that it's very bad for the biodiversity and then some people say that that you cannot prove that and et cetera so there are lots of er good and bad sides and and then for the er future if you need the wood and pulp more then the productivity should be improved and but the farmers have to be financed better and all these issues concerning like training and et cetera et cetera markets and so they are still a little poor in thailand and little bit about oil palm er i cannot i couldn't find information in thailand although i know that thailand is the third biggest producer of oil palm but no information nowhere except this one oil palm company in in southern thailand in krabi province but er there are plantations about 200 er hectares and but they will be increasing i- in the future for sure because the oil palm well the oil demand the bio- biodiesel demand is increasing and the like sustainable er waste energy waste are increasing and this is considered to be sustainable but it's also a very bad monoculture there is a lots of wastes coming out of the production er system from to the food to the oil itself and and , many problems but but if if you want to expand the the this these plantations then maybe this would be a good good point to consider the sustain- -stainable sustainability and then in the future try to do it a sustainable way but i don't know there's this roundtable on sustainable palm oil established by WWF but but and it's a good good way to promote the sustaina- sustainability of these oil palm plantations , a little bit bamboo about bamboo because i i consider this myself as very good er species for timber well not that ma- much for timber but anyways for pulp and other uses it's to my opinion very ecological and [it's usually] </S5>
<S13> [and your picture] shows a bamboo orchestra <SU> @@ </SU> all the music comes from bamboo </S13>
<S5> yes so there are many many multipurpose uses for this one er also food which the other er species cannot provide because you can actually eat the stems of the bamboo and er even one up to w- up to one metre a day it can grow this is the first thing that i have learned in this school by professor <NAME S13> that bamboo can grow one metre per day <SU> huh </SU> and and and </S5>
<S13> yes <SU> @@ </SU> believe or not </S13>
<S5> it's it's good for afforestation and er good for the soil and the environment also and and the importance is not fully recognised and there are about only 10,000 hectares of plantations there's a shortage of bamboo because it be- it has been cut er very freely from the natural forests er before and now there's a bit of a shortage <SIGH> and then er you can harvest bamboo many times er per year so it's it's very good in that way also so you get the income like all the time and and provides good labour for that matter and then pro- problems and potentials here's our professor in thailand [showing us us @@] </S5>
<SU> [(xx) @@] </SU>
<S13> i'm showing a clump <S5> yes </S5> that is a clump <S5> yes </S5> consisting of several culms </S13>
<S5> [so] </S5>
<S14> [hey] in which month by the way </S14>
<S5> this was january </S5>
<S12> january </S12>
<S14> january </S14>
<S12> a year ago </S12>
<S13> so the big thing is called a clump and that consists of several culms </S13>
<S5> yes yes and er you can see this is from er community forest ac- actually but er natural forest so you can see that it has many culms so you can harvest many of many like per year and all the time and it grows really fast so it's a potential for providing multipur- purpose uses so , erm some conclusions i'm just gonna actually i have been through these already so i don't wanna waste more time and then mangroves just just in really short er this is not a conce- this doesn't concern plantations or anything this is just a just to er one important aspect when considering forests in thailand you can see that the mangroves which protect the coastal areas and provide er multipurpose like food and and aquaculture and and charcoal and er anything that you can imagine and there's been a really severe decrease in the forest area but after the tsunami er actually some- something has been done and and there has been implemented this enrichment of mangroves until 2009 and their target is to plant 60,000 <COUGH> hectares of mangroves until er 2009 and also the people are trying to be participated in this in these programmes because these concerns a lot the communities also the fishing communities and et cetera who live on along the coastal lines also this er affects tourism and other things so and this is also a photo from i think it was also from krabi perhaps in the last january and you can see how dense the mangrove forests are and if they </S5>
<S13> and this was not much affected by the tsunami </S13>
<S5> yes <S13> yeah </S13> yes because it's so dense that well you can imagine that even a bigger wave cannot pass that </S5>
<S13> wave <SIC> wents </SIC> over it and it was not destroyed </S13>
<S5> uh-huh okay <SS> @@ </SS> well but you can imagine if this wasn't here the destruction </S5>
<S15> by the way was [that (xx)] </S15>
<S13> [it protected] the village behind , lives were saved by this mangrove </S13>
<SU> huh oh yeah </SU>
<S5> and then you get er several products from those also non-wood and also wood like timber timber for construction charcoal and et cetera and and lots of opportunities also for like non-valuable like education scientific research and like scenery and et cetera it's very difficult to value these these things and then there's our conclusion you can <NAME BS17> [say] </S5>
<BS17> [yeah] so er roughly about the conclusion so as you can see from the the screen er it says that er this type of forest sector development has really moved from deforestation to afforestation and reforestation so their goal was set to be 40 per cent to thailand area to be covered </BS17>
<S13> do you believe in that [er goal] </S13>
<BS17> [yeah] i believe i believe (xx) </BS17>
<S13> well you are optimist </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S13> that's good we will send you to thailand </S13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<BS17> @and then@ and then er based on this er forest development and then and then the NFPs so we have this legislation and then er policy and including implementation because legislation and policy alone without implementation doesn't take you anywhere so those things has really er trying to er er er er mitigate against the deforestation and then the role of the community is also another important factor so community management co-management er is also increasing the forest cover and then the logging ban er the communities are also trying to be er kind of er er er er what is it er yeah watchdog or something like that so they also try to increase the forest cover and then erm even though all these things are there there's still loss of biodiversity as regard to er de- deforestation because still there is deforestation process going on but at a a lower rate than er than in the 1980s so er then we see some significant change when we apply all these things er er er pragmatically and so i think this is our presentation </BS17>
<S13> <FOREIGN> khorp koon ka </FOREIGN> as you say <S5> <FOREIGN> [khorp koon ka] </FOREIGN> </S5> [in thai] thank you very much </S13>
<APPLAUSE>
<S13> can you tell the references </S13>
<S5> yes er we had @a bit@ bit hurry with these but </S5>
<S13> yes please er copy it in bigger size for us </S13>
<S5> yes er this is a little bigger then we had some others as well but they weren't clear enough so i didn't want to put it here be- <BS17> [so] </BS17> [because] we thought that we have to reorganise (xx) </S5>
<S13> and put it back please the pre- yeah that ITTO report is it there in yeah one two it's number four so you were lucky in in having the brand new report prepared er for ITTO by a by a mission actually it was partly consisting of the finnish [experts] </S13>
<S5> [it] it wasn't actually in the internet yet but i tried [to find it] </S5>
<S13> [was it] </S13>
<S5> no </S5>
<S13> not </S13>
<S5> no </S5>
<S13> but you had the printout </S13>
<S5> yes of course but <S13> yeah </S13> but i tried to find @also@ in the internet but i </S5>
<S13> i need it back it's our only copy </S13>
<S5> yeah of course </S5>
<S13> okay er so so again thank you very much for for your your good presentation and er we have time , and an opportunity for discussion you co- you managed to cover a very broad topic </S13>
<S5> er i- it was too wide to my opinion <S13> yeah </S13> too difficult </S5>
<S13> but you were brave and you succeeded <SS> [@@] </SS> [in in giving us] a very good er picture of of not only the pro- problems but partly also the the answers and we appreciate that very much but let's have a discussion i have a few comments listed here but maybe you could start others could start <NAME S15> please </S13>
<S15> okay er so from your presentation (i wanted to know) that most of the community forests in thailand are situated in in the north and north-eastern region where most of the natural forests are also found and my question is that are the na- are the are the community forests the natural forests and all the (xx) all the other plantations [i mean i me-] </S15>
<S5> [com-] com- i think community forests er they are located at the the not in the na- in the natural forest but they are like outside but the plantations are mainly in the south <S15> [okay] </S15> [but] there are also community forests in the south very much <S15> mhm-hm </S15> but er [i gu-] </S5>
<S13> [yes] to clarify that point community forest in thailand it specifically refers to natural forest <S15> [okay] <S5> [yeah] </S5> </S15> natural forests that are un- given under under community management but the big problem is and this is the biggest problem in thai forestry there is still no no legislation they have fought with the with the community forest bill now for 15 years and nothing has happened so there is no legal framework those who were on the course in thailand they remember this no legal framework to to to to support community management but as in thailand everything can be solved whether there is a law or not everything can be arranged so so so so they have arranged it in such a way that the royal forest department even without the law gives the right to the local communities to manage the forest so it's just an unofficial er agreement between the authorities and the community they can do if they follow certain rules it's a very clever way of of solving the the deadlock they have in in thailand now and there are not too many there should be many more of these community forests but because of this situation it has developed only slowly no one knows with the present political unrest although they have the military government now normally all the good things can be done during dictatorship in thailand so maybe let's hope also they can er achieve more results </S13>
<SU-7> so they <S13> [and quicker] </S13> [are situated] within the natural forests </SU-7>
<S13> they are yes <SU-7> okay </SU-7> natural forest actually the reserve forest er and and er and the the problem comes and they have not been able to solve it at all when it er re- refers to land inside national parks <SU> mhm-hm </SU> then it's a problem NGOs an- and then communities themselves they want to have the right to manage the land also which is inside national parks but what the royal forest department has been doing now they give the right for natural forest that is not inside the national park park park boundaries but outside but still is natural forest maybe partly degraded or like in the case of <VILLAGE NAME> were we worked so it's pretty <SIC> intuct </SIC> intact everything else had been destroyed but there's a nice piece of intact natural forest and that is under complete community management as we saw in our our case study </S13>
<S15> okay so i have one more question er don't you think that soil erosion could be or is a problem in in in rubber plantations because er we have seen a photo as as you shown in in the rubber plantation there was absolutely no undergrowth <S5> mhm-hm </S5> in the rubber plantations so </S15>
<S5> this is a a bit tricky question because there are two at least what i have read now there are two point views they are like this ITTO's point of view that er it's very good and and can prevent @erosion@ like if you consider it established on a degraded land of course it's better that there's something <S15> yeah </S15> if if there's nothing <S15> yeah </S15> but but i don't know if there are enough research i didn't come across that deeply that whether what are the real like </S5>
<S13> yeah and then er the truth the fact remains that the the big floods in october no november ni- 1988 that caused er ultimately the the logging ban they were not clearing er er of the forest for forestry purposes but that they those were clearing a forest land for rubber plantations and that caused the flood that killed 200 or more people and caused then the the logging ban the following year so rubber er plantations they have their risks in terms of erosion and and and floods <S15> [(xx)] </S15> [of course] when you have a mature rubber plantation it provides some er protection but the critical stage is after you have cleared the land and before the rubber trees have grown then then during that stage you will have the problems rubber plantations are increasing all over the country now but when they replace bare land so then of course the problem is er is is smaller and it's more towards er soil protection than <SIC> degration </SIC> degradation yes </S13>
<BS17> well actually i was going to add something er to what she said but you have rightly pointed out because er er in ghana for instance all the rubber plantation i have seen myself er there there are lots of undergrowth so we have to clear them so when i think when they are grown to a certain point you have the undergrowth (xx) (was saying) (xx) </BS17>
<S13> and it depends very much on the planting density it's common to have grazing cattle grazing under rubber trees that is that is possible or even agroforestry system crop plants like pineapple with rubber as we saw in places in thailand , yes er <NAME NS10> </S13>
<NS10> this doesn't really have to do with thailand but with the oil palm <S5> yeah </S5> i was wondering <NAME> told us er that the wood wasn't used in the shells in the <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [that] stuff wasn't used and i was wondering if you saw anything about using all the stuff that were wood and shells and oil for <S5> er i didn't </S5> energy production like in finland they [(use for wood)] </NS10>
<S5> [yes] er i didn't find well in this concerning thailand i found a little bit just a little information but er like in general i i have not found sustainable ways in oil palm production yet except this sustainable the roundtable process (xx) oil they are trying to implement sustainable ways but er i'm sure somewhere there are like proper ways but i think it's just a little </S5>
<S13> the roundtable where <FOREIGN> neste </FOREIGN> oil from finland is a mem- a full member for instance so that is for certifying they provide certification they have certain rules and that's already the good good thing finland will have the new law everyone knows it hopefully that o- on bio- biodiesel production certain percentage of diesel fuel must be bio- er er biofuel and that will come there's no other source than oil palm to provide it so that's why the roundtable has been established to to provide some means for for certifying but of course what comes to finland that may be certified but but then the oil that goes to other countries is not so we always have problems and leakages in such arrangements that's why i would like to see oil palm as being one of the seminar topics for our our next week or the following week the seminars that will start we have to discuss it more we have to discuss it </S13>
<SU> when is the next seminar </SU>
<BS17> so maybe can i ask something <S13> yes </S13> so in the oil palm plantations er in in ghana for instance er where the sustainability counts is when they clear vast areas for instance for oil palm (plantation) so that's where there we have had degradation before it's comes to the point so then they have these traditional uses of the er the the tree there's er so many ways apart from getting the oil from the the the woods then they have so many uses for fencing for baskets for er er erm some kind of er matt which they dry cocoa beans on it so there's so many uses so many uses [(for it)] </BS17>
<S13> [but] in thailand it's er considered a problem with almost 300,000 hectares of oil palm plantation and all the waste that is coming all the time the (xx) the the the the the the the stems er which do not have traditional uses at least in that part of the world and then all the waste the the the effluence from the oil palm er the oil mills <BS17> yeah </BS17> the presses so that is a big problem <BS17> yeah that's </BS17> maybe in your country [also] </S13>
<BS17> [yeah] it's also a problem in ghana because [er] </BS17>
<S13> [they] are very pollutive </S13>
<BS17> yeah this er t- how to dispose of the waste <S13> yeah </S13> is the problem but they use the the (shaft) from the the fruit as a source of er energy so [(xx)] </BS17>
<S13> [yeah in] thailand the the only answer they could give us was that they tried to burn it and and use it as a as a energy source but er they don't have systems that can can utilise that so far there are also some attempts to make fibre board fibre board from the oil palm er leaf or from waste , yes more questions comments [<NAME S15>] </S13>
<S15> [just a] little (question) er er we have seen a very nice picture of mangrove forest in southern thailand along the andaman sea i was wondering er could anybody er just tell me what is the name of the species </S15>
<S13> that is rhizophora </S13>
<S15> rhizophora </S15>
<S13> rhizophora mucronata the most </S13>
<S15> okay </S15>
<S3> is there only one species </S3>
<S13> er well the place where we were that was almost that one single species and then the interesting thing is that it's pantropical you have it in your country bangladesh the same species in south america <S15> yeah </S15> on the african coast so it is everywhere in the world it's the most common mangrove species </S13>
<S15> yeah we call it <FOREIGN> bakau kurap </FOREIGN> <S13> yes </S13> (xx) something like </S15>
<S13> yeah with a living er (seedlings) </S13>
<S15> aerial roots </S15>
<S13> aerial yeah , one thing that was not maybe er er emphasised you probably mentioned it but the pro- problem in thailand is also the forestry administration can you tell about the situation under which ministry and how is it organised or could i remind you or and everybody that instead of the old royal forest department established in 1896 or whatever it was we now have three departments it was split into three and they still that has been er in effect now for for three or four years and they still don't know what are the responsibilities of different new departments , they still have one that they call royal forest department that is devoted to plantations community forestry and so on but then there is a new national park department er whe- where most of the old staff was transferred and that department doesn't know what what they should do and then the third one department of marine resources earlier also under royal forest department so there is no no clear definition what is the role and they all are under not ministry of agriculture as earlier but now ministry of environment and natural resources and i was in thailand two weeks ago and i heard they have no plans to change that they everybody a- agrees that that it is a difficult situation and and it's bad to have three different departments but they'll try to keep it they want to show that something has happened in more than 100 years so if not nothing else they have split the old department into three parts and changed the ministry . yeah we are er more or less coming to an end of the whole course so i want to thank this group once again everybody for the discussion and n- now i wish you good luck in in the examination tomorrow that will start nine 15 in this room if you for some reason cannot take that exam i strongly recommend that you come and and try it so then discuss with me there will be a chance er next week on <S14> [wednesday] </S14> [wednesday] already some of you have booked that possibility but [you can also] </S13>
<S11> [what time is it] on wednesday </S11>
<S14> nine fifteen </S14>
<S13> no wednesday it's 12 o'clock <SU-14> okay </SU-14> that's a common faculty examination so that we can keep as another possibility and then for the future after that we you have to decide indivi- we have to agree individually when you take it </S13>
<S7> so there's no like if i decide to take the wednesday then should i like er [(xx) someone or] </S7>
<S13> [register] </S13>
<S7> register yeah (xx) </S7>
<S13> er yeah to make sure go to mrs varpu <SU-7> yeah </SU-7> second floor and tell that you want to take it on wednesday yeah tomor- for tomorrows exam you need not register but everything after that you have to tell that in advance </S13>
<BS17> is it in this room </BS17>
<S13> this room , okay thank you and see you </S13>
