<TITLE: Women's Studies Seminar 1: Breaking the Woman?
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: women's studies
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD03A
NOTES: USEMD03B is part of the same course

RECORDING DURATION: 74 min 53 sec

RECORDING DATE: 30.10.2002

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 8

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 8

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (UK); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S2> alright then hope you all got it because i first i sent it as an RTF thing did you manage to open it </S2>
<S3> no </S3>
<S4> no </S4>
<NS5> yeah </NS5>
<S2> you managed <NS5> yeah </NS5> and <NAME S1> managed <S1>  yeah </S1> but it said it would [be as er as a word document so it's] </S2>
<S1> [but it's yeah there has to be some] yeah </S1>
<S2> it should be alright okay erm er where should i start erm . when i was thinking that what should what i should write about (xx) i thought that okay i'm gonna write about the film , and er first i thought i'd just mention make an analysis of the er if er this particular film is er a feminist one or if it has sort of er sympathetic er attitude towards feminism or pro-feminist or something but then i thought er it it's @it's just@ just sort of practical practical really and i thought it's just gonna be a bit too short @@ so that's why i er thought sort of thought about taking a some kind of a theory to back it up a bit so then i er , because er in women's studies because er when i sort of er , er i keep er this psychoanalysis thing keeps coming up everywhere i go in a sense that i every everything i read there's psychoanalysis this and that and er and at first i thought it was oh god this psychoanalysis i hate it because i sort of resent freud's some some of his theories for example are quite sexist i think and i sort of always sort of uh it's so boring and so essentialist and that sort of thing but because it keeps coming up everywhere so i gradually began to get more interested in it so , and because feminist theorists er scholars do interpret it quite interestingly i think so so that's why i thought about that one , and as because i have a erm media culture or audio-visual media culture as it used to be called as a minor so there this er er er laura mulvey's article , which is based on psychoanalysis i- i kept bumping into it all the time so <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> and so i thought okay this is gonna be it this is gonna be the er theoretical background that i'm gonna use but as i said this is only a sort of a beginning my beginning in er studying s- psychoanalysis so psychoanalysis so i'm not that familiar with it so please @forgive me@ if this does if my this er , my er this in this essay if it's a bit obscure or something so i would i try to explain it if it's so- some- if it's er if there's something that , i didn't sort of portray clearly , but in a sense i've er it's hard to explain these things it's sort of in your head and you understand okay how this happens it's really hard to put it in on paper or to sort of er summarise it so but let's see how it goes okay so . this a- er article on er erm this visual pleasure and narrative cinema is er has been a er real influential in it in that's because er all these books about film studies or they refer to it , almost every single one that i've read even though it's and er even though it's it has been criticised a lot , but <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [i think] that er everybody recognises the fact that it has in a sense it (sort of) gave systematical evidence of how er the patriarchal er , the nature of popular cinema is and has been and it sort of opened the gates @so@ and it it has been er really an an important article and yes it has been criticised , er by other feminist scholars for examp- er because it's er erm it's it portrays it's quite grim @in a sense that@ it doesn't really give room to the er for example female spectatorship and er , and it sort of erm in a sense for example there are ways , er that women can achieve pleasure from film and they do so that's has been really studied that what's the pleas- pleasure like or h- h- how does it er , and how can it be , mhm how should i say it so that there is some other kind of pleasure that you can get , so it doesn't have to be l- this masochist pleasure that you have to sort of identify with the male gaze all the time so there are possibilities for for the female gaze or something and also the er for example there can be for example homo- homoerotic <S1> [mhm] </S1> [desire] involved and there's er the- for example lesbian looks or er are <COUGH> are for example then , that er this er mulvey's article doesn't in a way discuss and that er that's been that (xx) for example that and for example er black women <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that's er totally different thing again how black how how it has been studied how black women for example er derive pa- pleasure from watching these er white women (as a spectacle) and er and er er but i- it's it's quite interesting but yeah nevertheless it's it has been a really important article </S2>
<S1> we believe you </S1>
<S2> yes okay <COUGH> mhm mhm what then so here we go then oh why why i chose breaking the waves er so so that's one of my favourite films it has been and er and actually because i had this er course on er in media studies that er i'm supposed to s- study a film from the point of view how er how place or space , works or contributes to narrative so in that course i analysed breaking the waves so i thought it was would be quite convenient to analyse breaking the waves in this course as well but it but it yeah that's you er usually say yeah you know kill your darlings er uh i'm gonna do another one on this breaking the waves this this year so i probably will never wanna see this again after this autumn but er er well i think actually laura mulvey says something about how er i'm (xx) where it was let's see if it's i can find it she says it quite well , because i have the article here about , killing your darlings er er it says mhm mhm yeah it's the i- it's part of the article <READING ALOUD> destruction of pleasure as a radical weapon </READING ALOUD> yeah , that er <READING ALOUD> it is said that analy- analysing pleasure or beauty destroys it that is that is the intention of this article the satisfaction and re-enforcement of the ego that represent the high-point of film history hitherto must be attacked  </READING ALOUD> , yeah it has to be so that's the er , the how the er the it has to be shown that the er structures of patriarchal unconscious and there are deeply rooted in the pleasures of popular cinema and it has to be and it should be prob- er problematised so there we go let's see the okay the essay then er f- yeah my er first point of view was the er , (xx) feminism as you said they are not (phases) that's good <S1> [mhm] </S1> [they are] sort of levels that first it was this the idea that of equality and that women and men aren't that different so that that women can are as good as men in a sense the er idea of feminist struggle first and , in this view er st- in er feminist film studies this is the first first level that er films were studied from the point of view that how they er how women are portrayed and how they should be port- portrayed because they usually often were quite the er repre- representations were quite bad and and they emphasised this er part of the er film theory en- emphasised the er positive images of women </S2>
<S1> mhm can i [break in er] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> er what about film noir wouldn't be er wouldn't it be lovely to be a femme fatale [erm this so it's it's not] </S1>
<S2> [yes yes yes yes yeah absolutely in a sense] yeah no the femme fatale <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it wasn't] sort of a an exception that it wasn't so victimised but <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> o- often <SIGH> in film noir too the er the femme fatale was for example the source of chaos in a sense the s- source of a <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [the whole] mystery was about the woman and it had to be solved and had the riddle had to be solved and i- in the end often the er femme fatale ended up <S1> mhm-hm </S1> being punished or ended up being destroyed or even dead or something like that <S1> [yeah] </S1> [by the] so the yeah well i mean by the (AIDS) it's not that simple yeah <S1> yeah </S1> yeah so that was the first the his- sort of historical and sociological point of view that i (why i) studied the film how er how the er , the struggle of bess for example was the er idea of that first point of view , and how she was represented , so then i- it was this laura mulvey's article and psychoanalysis , yeah <SIGH> psychoanalysis was one part of the er called second wave of feminism wasn't it or something that emphasised for ex- er that sexual difference in that sense that , that it wasn't na- that much about that women can be as good as men or we can do a- anything men can do but it just sort of emphasised the . the agency of women how er the resources of within women for <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [example] the er how , so that celebrating womanhood in a sense <S1> mhm </S1> , and in film theory as well so it was er , at the sa- same time with the second fe- er er wave there's this er , semiotic sense iconographic theory was quite dominating actually it it still is and it has been really influential but it has been it ha- has it has been criticised but so yes the that's w- that's the er second wave so that's , studying this film breaking the waves from the theoretic point of view that , uh er from the article there are these er , erm . er these ways how , because of this er , cinematic apparatus the the women is portrayed in a certain way because of this male gaze male unconsciousness and er unconsciousness of the film and that sort of thing so and er as i i found out that yes indeed it's these features that are presente- presented in this article , can be found in this lars von trier's film . and er and it was quite quite fascinating how clear they were but and er and it has to be said that these conventions like , close shots and and that sort of thing they are used all the time and they have sort of c- become i thought natural and they're used all the time but i also think it's good that , it is recognised that and <SIC> theoretitised </SIC> to make it a theory about it so how how these think- things could be seen also as er , work of unconscious and not just something that that cinema is or always has been so that the- there are is some ideology <S1> mhm </S1> behind that </S2>
<S1> could <S2> [so would] </S2> [this be] enough for a context </S1>
<S2> yeah yeah but <S1> or </S1> yes yeah er er so <SIGH> what else what could is say you've read it erm , yes but yeah so i started with the , the material spaces , and i there's this and the there are these institutions like religion family and , legal system and the violence and and what else science that are portrayed here that are these sort of main er institutions that have been er er suppressing women . and within the film they are the er struggle of bess is shown pretty is pretty hard but she she does fight back several ways actually and so it's not that simple that she's just a w- victim of the patriarchy and this er narrow-minded soci- er narrow-minded community . erm mhm mhm , and but yeah i think so . if if if what i think i- is it a feminist text or not so i'm not sure as i said it's an ambivalent thing , yes it's it has these elements of bess as a , subject who who defies the rules and does what she thinks it's right and she defies the er the notion of good by being good what she thinks , being good as er she thinks it's supposed to be done but nevertheless i ha- i hate it when er there are these promising films that that er er that might be s- in a way pro-feminist that they have to b- they usually kill the protagonist the independent woman has to be killed the sexual woman has to be killed <S1> mhm-hm </S1> even though it's it's sort of making a point alright but it's it's the- it's still there they're dying and or the other way around it's t- the marriage which is i don't know if which which one's bad which one's worse @marriage or death@ but yeah @@ but that's what i find er problematic and lars von trier's trilogy this is the first one of lars von trier's trilogy golden heart break was the first then it's the idiots and then is then the er dancer in the dark i don't know if you've seen those how well have you seen breaking the waves , you've seen it </S2>
<S1> how many [has seen it] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] </S3>
<NS5> [no i haven't] seen it </NS5>
<S2> okay </S2>
<S1> so only two yeah </S1>
<S2> okay <S1> yeah </S1> go- go- good so you can borrow it if you like it's really good anyway er <COUGH> so have you seen idiots or dancer in the dark </S2>
<S3> yes [@@] </S3>
<S1> [good] </S1>
<S2> [okay] so but anyway the point is that it's a trilogy about so it's it's golden heart trilogy and it's placed sort of dwells , in women's suffering if you put it blunt if you put it a bit bluntly so that's what i find problematic they are brilliant films and they have this sort of social commentary of er women's place and how women are suppressed and in that sense they are pro-feminist but still i've i think it's the i think actually the suffering of women is fetishised in these fi- these three films so <S1> mhm </S1> uh <S1> yeah </S1> i yeah anyway so that's that but then the mulvey's article so first there was </S2>
<S1> <NAME S2> excuse me could we now take a break so that we take all to the discussion <S2> yeah </S2> and [er then @@] </S1>
<S2> [sorry i was why] why i have to keep talking and talking i could talk all day </S2>
<S1> and it's okay <S2> [yeah] </S2> [you] you have lot to say and er but er perhaps if they can [kind of er direct] </S1>
<S2> [yeah yeah especi- yeah sure go on] </S2>
<S1> your your er mhm i don't want to , ask any questions first i have lots of questions i like this paper and i think it's not a basic studies paper er it's more advanced i think this paper and er so if i'm going to present criticism it's i- i try to read it as an advanced paper <S2> okay </S2> yeah okay so please who wants to start , questions , <NAME NS5> </S1>
<NS5> erm i haven't seen the film but i'd like to now </NS5>
<S2> yeah you can borrow it <NS5> [@@] </NS5> [some er some] night and </S2>
<S1> and you will show us [an extract so yeah] </S1>
<S2> [yeah alright yeah yeah well can i] show you some extracts [okay (xx)] </S2>
<S1> [yeah yeah] </S1>
<NS5> i don't really have it was a really really good essay really really good <S2> thanks </S2> erm so i just sort of made a few comments as i was going through but they weren't like question comments erm . i think one of the things i was thinking of was the erm the religion sense <S2> [erm] </S2> [erm] . it's not really a sort of a criticism or anything it's erm because it'd be protestant it would be protestant <S2> mhm </S2> in scotland at that time </NS5>
<S2> yeah i [don't there's presbyterians or] </S2>
<NS5> [i'd i thought scotland's always been protestant] </NS5>
<S2> something i think i read somewhere [it's supposed to be presbyterians] </S2>
<SU> [(xx) presbyterians] </SU>
<S2> or something yeah </S2>
<NS5> it's quite extreme protestantism which would <S2> yeah [alright] </S2> [explain] why there's nothing <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [in the church because] most of england is protestant so <S2> yeah </S2> it's all basic [in the churches] <S2> [okay yeah] yeah </S2> but i do agree with you on the patriarchical la- layouts of it because mhm and [and] </NS5>
<S1> [yeah] i have to er add <S2> [(xx) yeah] </S2> [here that the] that the patriarchy here functions well as a concept [i i i think yeah yeah] </S1>
<NS5> [yeah because i asked] somebody about erm <S2> mhm </S2> the religion here in finland <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er it's is it luth- luth- <SU> yes </SU> luth- </NS5>
<S4> evangelic lutheran [is the complete (xx)] </S4>
<SS> [yeah yeah] </SS>
<NS5> because that's quite isn't that's quite liberal isn't it <S2> yeah [yeah] </S2> [whereas] protestantism is is very strict which would erm explain the way the way erm she was treated <SS> mhm-hm </SS> because to go against erm the religion would go against like the boundaries of society in a way society is structured which i could sort of understand <S2> [yeah] </S2> [like] this is that is how it is and how it was it's not so much now but <S2> yeah </S2> like religion sort of led their life </NS5>
<S2> yeah <NS5> yeah </NS5> yeah but we do have these some er religious er communities that are quite strict in a sense in finland too so </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm <S2> mhm </S2> [(xx)] </S1>
<S6> [but i don't] think that religion is just some kind of excuse to treat women as er as second species <S2> [mhm] </S2> [or] something like that er there cannot be any religion or any rule that can just like er racism [it's like like a] </S6>
<NS5> [well i'm not (xx)] </NS5>
<S6> like a religion you believe in white race and that's it so that's that's a religion believes in man and <S2> mhm </S2> that religion i don't think that religion can be excuse just to treat somebody badly and this is just one way of thinking that , i hated it @@ <SS> @@ </SS> because er @er if you say@ if you say yes that's my religion i believe it is coming from some (xx) from er (xx) and i can i have to do it because everybody tells me and this is good way of behaviour behaviours kind of silly and , mhm </S6>
<NS5> mhm but there is the argument that i quite like the protestant religion because it's quite independent which is quite strange that she was put into so much suppression here because it goes back to what erm is it weber with his capitalist thesis basically like <SU> [mhm] </SU> [catholicism] and islam but because it's such a community religion you can't break free from the constraints of that religion whereas protest- protestantism was always seen as like a lonely religion like durkheim said people who are protestants commit suicide more and because you're on your own and you're independent you make up your own ideas <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> which sort of <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [contradicts] what the film showed <SU> yeah </SU> [(xx)] </NS5>
<S1> [yeah but i think] that the sociological point of view is quite good here because the community is not it's not they don't live in a city they don't live in <NS5> [mhm] </NS5> [a] kind of free world there is a certain <S2> [mhm] </S2> [certain] atmosphere <S2> yeah </S2> i think in <S2> [yeah] </S2> [in] the film and it's very [yeah] </S1>
<S2> [yeah] yeah but from the point of view of religion it have to be said that er because you s- some of you haven't seen it bess is really really religious that that , but she only questions the fact how women are treated in a but she do doe- does embrace the er <SIGH> the idea of god and heaven and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and hell and that sort of things <S1> mhm </S1> that er , and it this film isn't anti-religious in a sense that she bess just has her own way of believing in god <S1> mhm </S1> and these er conversations that she has in in the church and the other places where she actually she er first she er talks to god and then she er makes he er says what god's supposed to say to back to her so she says like oh bess you've been a naughty girl or something like that so it's quite it's really <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [powerful] these these scenes where she talks to god because she is god in a s- in in a sense herself as <S1> [yeah] </S1> [too] mhm </S2>
<S1> okay more comments er <NAME NS5> you can continue later but <NS5> @mhm@ </NS5> let's take everybody [to the discussion] </S1>
<S6> [and i've got] kind of question about the she was after her husband became ill and she was just trying to do everything for him to er get well and so on and i thought that is it really so that she er thought that her happiness is her husband's happiness </S6>
<S2> yes [she was] </S2>
<S6> [and she] cannot be happy without any husband </S6>
<S2> yes she was totally totally in love with jan and </S2>
<S6> in love or just it was er happy to have a husband and to be happy with him </S6>
<S2> no their marriage is represented is as a really happy one and really passionate one and it's , but the whole this whole accident ruins it all and then is starts to go wrong <S6> mhm-hm </S6> when jan becomes ill and he thinks that er he can't take that that he he cannot well if you put it blunt to have sex with bess anymore and bess because he saw how she enjoyed <S6> mhm </S6> because it's has it it showed off in many cases in the in many places how they're having sex and how er bess in a way discovers sex because of the cul- the culture of this in this community it has been really <S1> mhm-hm </S1> really strict in that sense so he that's why he asks , or it can be argued that he is he is being se- selfish and he's all drugged up with all this medicine and and he's being selfish and she wants bess to fulfil his fantasy because he's he's really really bitter and depressed and bess does this because because she loves him and sh- and i think the religious atmosphere has affected the idea how she thinks a woman and a wife should be <SS> mhm-hm </SS> and this is mhm this this that's the that's the er saddest thing here that she she doesn't see , or er she doesn't see how it could be different she has to do the sacrifice because she <SS> [mhm-hm yeah] </SS> [blames herself because] she has asked god to <S6> [yeah] </S6> [bring] jan back because she misses him so much so that's the guilt thing as well there </S2>
<S1> so , <NAME S3> you saw the film </S1>
<S3> erm yes and erm i do like the essay i would like to bring up an issue that like could be in- in- inserted into it who wrote the script for the er breaking the waves </S3>
<S2> lars von trier himself </S2>
<S3> himself <S2> [yeah] </S2> [okay] because that could er that could like erm <P:06> okay </S3>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [yeah yeah but y- yeah he] he did <S3> [yeah] </S3> [did] the script and er , and the whole and he has really thought about this because because of this trilogy <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that focuses] on on these , in a sense independent s- but at the same time suppressed women who end up dead but actually not not dead in idiots she doesn't die but </S2>
<S6> <WHISPERING> she gets @married@ </S6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [no actually god i should've done i have to do an] i have to do an essay on all this trilogy actually this should be religious yeah because the idiots it's a bit different because it's a dogma film i don't know if you're familiar with lars von trier's this er dogma the how <S1> mhm-hm </S1> or it's another issue okay i'm not <SS> [@@] </SS> [gonna go to that but] yes she has written the script and er . it makes a lot of point and it's er they are all these three films are brilliant <S1> mhm-hm </S1> . and and still </S2>
<S1> so did you all follow the logic and everything was understandable and there were no difficult [points or] <SS> [yeah] yeah </SS> yeah that's good <NAME S7> you what <S7>  mhm </S7> you have some comments </S1>
<S7> yes erm , in this essay one one thing i i cannot understand the er meaning of meaning of words and it's seven page <S2> yeah </S2> , erm , fourth paragraph it says erm <READING ALOUD> there has been a tension between politics and pleasure in the field of feminist film theory </READING ALOUD> and i couldn't understand er erm what the politics is </S7>
<S2> okay okay <SS> [mhm] </SS> [so] politics is . er that erm politics is the er sort of i i on my opinion as i understood it is the er sociological and er <P:06> er uh the sociological and historical view that or is it the other way around what do you think oh god wh- where did i get this because i'm not sure er [pleasure] </S2>
<S1> [yeah i] think that er she means the different kind of paradigms in in the film feminist film theory one that is on pleasure and one that is more kind of critical or if to put it [very simply or] </S1>
<S2> [oh because i] i did ha- at <S1> [you thought] </S1> [certain point] i did have a clue about </S2>
<S1> yeah [i don't remember anymore] </S1>
<S2> [i have er and i haven't sort of] really thought which way it was around but now er but anyway the point is that there are these two , you s- as you said paradigms that c- <S1> [mhm] </S1> [one] concentrates on how things should be and for example tries to s- seek women directors and producers who might produce er er f- fresh er representations of women of in a sense the real women but what's real in this that's another issue and and the pleasure thing is , has to do with also the fact that , and the the politics part can also be understood as this for example this mulvey's article er it's really critical and how it it sort of questions the whole idea and the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [pleasure] thing is from the point of view that er there are possibilities to women to exper- experience pleasure outside this whole it's gr- this grim idea of male gaze to so this there's been this debate over whether it's possible this female spectatorship and to what extent and because this psychoanalysis and these these semiotic theories have been really dominating so they've been quite refreshing these ideas that pleasure can be that women can experience pleasure <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [from] popular cinema too and it has been really studied a lot how women take films how women spectators experience films </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm i would [continue yeah sorry] </S1>
<S2> [yeah that was a bit obscure] yeah that's a good point that could've made <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that more clear yeah [yeah] </S2>
<S1> [you have] something else to add to this because i want to continue from this that you say on the next page then that er <READING ALOUD> from my feminist standpoint </READING ALOUD> and i don't see you explaining what that is or <S2> [okay yeah] </S2> [or have you] or have you but you can [tell us] </S1>
<S2> [yeah] yeah [my] </S2>
<S1> [well] what is your [feminist standpoint] </S1>
<S2> [feminist (xx)] it's er because it [w- w-] </S2>
<S1> [we know] that you are @feminist@ </S1>
<S2> yeah but @yeah@ <S1> already </S1> first in high school for if i go into high school i was the idea of equality let's say the first wave of <S1> [mhm] </S1> [feminism] was my thing okay i think well i can do anything that er boys can do i was that was the thing and and and i f- refused to be treated differently because i happened to be a girl and then a bit later i er was got into that sexual difference thing (in a cycle) that er i shouldn't apologise being a girl for being a woman <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and but now i don't know i haven't really er got- gotten into that third wave thing but it's the id- isn't the idea that er there are different sort of identities and you know differences between <S1> [mhm] </S1> [within] women within <S1> [yeah] </S1> [woman] so that's i think that's where i'm now i don't i'm just in the middle of all these things i don't know i haven't but nevertheless nevertheless it is a feminist standpoint but it's a sort of mixture of all these , levels [and things] </S2>
<S1> [mhm but er] when you read when i'm as a reader i i i become curious </S1>
<S2> yeah [yeah yeah yeah that's] </S2>
<S1> [that that] what is that <S2> yeah </S2> then but yeah <S2> yeah  </S2> so we have er we haven't heard from <NAME S8> yet or <NAME S4> . what did you think , other than that has or has been already said . <NAME S8> perhaps you </S1>
<S8> mhm i was er thinking about her paper like i don't i don't i'm not sure if i remember right but <S2> mhm </S2> there was this scene that where bess was i- er in a public bus <S2> mhm </S2> and she was like fondling some man <S2> [yeah] </S2> [old man] or something </S8>
<S2> she jerks him off </S2>
<S8> yeah <S2> mhm </S2> like remember <S2> [yeah] </S2> [(xx)] but i mean so it she's like er she wants to experiment with anyone i- i i- is it like erm is she using er jan's like . his ill-health or something and his , i mean he wants her to do these things so is he using is she using that like an excuse to experiment [experiment] </S8>
<S2> [her sexuality] <S8> yeah </S8> yeah or is it just because of jan you mean yeah </S2>
<S8> or , or @or@ </S8>
<S2> or not </S2>
<S8> or is she sort of like trying to heal him because she thinks that she can like influence the world because she does think that <S2> yeah </S2> yeah or </S8>
<S2> yeah it could be argued that she's doing it for herself because it i think it it's there is this subt- tex- subtext in this er film , that that she is . uh because she's er experiencing sexuality , quite heavily because she hasn't so before so it is tragic to her as well when jan gets to this accident but in that sense in this sexual sense but in that that particular scene before that jan's been dr- he he's ha- had these er , medicines because he's really ill and he's sort of er he's a bit delirious and he er says something about go back to the bus or go to the back of the bus he's being delirious and before that he has asked bess to , to sort of to try to er have sex with other man men so that he he could she could come and tell them to jan so that they could share the intimacy in that way so he's being delirious and that's why she sort of takes it literally and she actually because she's in the she's in the hospital she goes into the bus because he's been talking about the bus because he'd been delirious and he goes to the back of the bus and there's er this old man and he ju- she just goes there and she's okay there's my chance now to do there's this anonymous man and i'm she just wanks him and then then he she feels sick and she has to leave the bus and she vomits and she has her she has a little chat with god and god says that it's alright that er yes but she in a sense she gets her approval from her god and er and what er the answer is that yes she was fulfilling jan's fantasy at least in my opinion because . he she saw that he was getting worse he was delirious and <S1> mhm </S1> so she thought that she had to do something in order to get him better and in this film it is i- it is seen that er that er as she goes further and further i mean take this sex with these mans there are there's this improvement in hi- c- in his con- jan's condition , so that e- enforces , the idea that she can she can er influence his health </S2>
<S1> yes and this er this this er particular scene it is not about her own sexual pleasure </S1>
<S2> no it doesn't look like it because she wo- vomits [afterwards] </S2>
<S1> [yeah] so she's kind of <S2> yeah </S2> but she's condemned because of her own <S2> yeah </S2> sexual pleasure kind of [at the end] </S1>
<S2> [yeah it yeah] yeah yeah </S2>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S6> and could one say that god when talks to bess he says er yes or no just according to what jan should think because there was er written that sh- you s- or you told that she was talking to god and the god said yes bess you are really bad about it don't do that and now when she went to that bus and left it the god said yes you can go for a for another man it's kind of contradictory to religion <S2> yes </S2> but <S2> yeah </S2> i think that's what jan should think in that case </S6>
<S2> yeah yeah because it it everything that happens <S6> yes </S6> , reflects the conversations <S6> mhm-hm </S6> these conversations with god because she starts to question and starts to be , let's say drift to further and further from the er <S6> mhm-hm </S6> s- this church's sphere <S6> mhm </S6> of control <S6> mhm-hm </S6> and that is er reflected on the er , in the er conversation that er god co- becomes a bit she's on her side <S6> yeah </S6> because in i- because in the beginning er god is is much more stricter and </S2>
<S6> so her husband is like a god for her </S6>
<S2> well i don't know it could be argued that it is because of jan's <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [influence] that these conversations with god change <S6> mhm-hm </S6> it could be ar- yeah but i'm not sure i don't i haven't thought about it but yeah i have thought about it that that's because it is bess who talks <S6> [yeah] </S6> [as god] of course it's </S2>
<S6> and she answers [@herself@] </S6>
<S2> [yeah yeah] yeah but er she does put herself through quite a lot of ordeal through these conversations and but she really questions herself all the time but ac- at the same time encourages herself so it's <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it is] contradictory </S2>
<S1> <NAME S4> </S1>
<S4> i have a hard time taking it all in i haven't i haven't seen the film and er er personally i'm also keen on films but i have a quite a different perspective from from mulvey's er . i sort of i don't , to say it bluntly i don't buy the psychoanalytic <S2> yeah </S2> film theory i'm much more of a . well i erm i view all these through my sort of my first training which is that i am to be a translator <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and in translation studies there's a lot of discussion on these things as well er <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [on on] ideologies <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and and power and er <COUGH> er that in in different times and spaces and different ages and and er different states of life there are different erm , what's the word i've forgotten , identities [@for for people yes@] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [where's my identity] </S2>
<S4> and as a translator i'm sort of always , in a crossfire between you know trying to be er sort of objective to a <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [translation] to a text and at the same time knowing that i i'm never able to achieve that , but er yes well that's that's i i think that's why i'm even more baffled with @this@ this paper because i'm going to write mine for this course <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [as well] on film theory er through film theory </S4>
<S1> mhm-hm that's good </S1>
<S4> [and so i'm so i'm just] </S4>
<S1> [yeah yeah we have] another angle now <S4> er </S4> i think <S2> [yes] </S2> [if] you're not on keen on [psychoanalytical] </S1>
<S4> [yeah] yeah <S2> [yeah erm] </S2> [so] if it were possible you could see smoke coming out of my ears <SS> [@@] </SS> [right now] at the moment because i'm just i'm thinking and thinking and i can't just formulate one single sentence yet i might @later on this@ er during this class <COUGH> </S4>
<S1> well we hear it then </S1>
<S2> yeah because i i don't buy psychoanalysis in film theory . to certain extent i er it's er , but i find it really interesting </S2>
<S4> [it's interesting enough yes] </S4>
<S2> [as a as a as a perspective] to to sort of reveal how unconscious works in film , just </S2>
<S4> [it's interesting yeah yeah] </S4>
<S2> [just because of the fact because when] you see films you think and go to the cinema er there are are these conventions that are present in the film and you don't think about them how how it's been edited and and er from whose point of view it has it's in a way it's , the cinemato- cinematography for <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [example] from whose point of view is it is it it is so er these in in a sense , [sort of er un- er un-] </S2>
<S4> [psychoanalysis] is just one way <S2> yeah </S2> of <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [of] , looking at <S2> yeah </S2> camera angles <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] point of views and cuts [and] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> <FOREIGN> mise en scène </FOREIGN> and all [that] </S4>
<SS> [mhm] </SS>
<S1> mhm-hm and you mainly concentrate on the text i think or if if i mean the that er </S1>
<S2> yes [and the] </S2>
<S1> [film] as a text [or] </S1>
<S2> [ye- ye- yes] and yeah and yeah i don't yeah pay that much attention on on editing or that sort of thing <FOREIGN> mise en scène </FOREIGN> </S2>
<S1> yeah because er then er what i would su- er suggest one one way to look at it if you just if you s- then really say that you take it as a text you could for instance use feminist er textual methods like for instance sara mills' feminist stylistics which is quite </S1>
<S2> alright [yeah is it about] </S2>
<S1> [good because it's it goes] mhm it goes deeper i mean it starts there of course there can erm there can be the question that is this feminist or is this not feminist or what is there <S2> mhm </S2> but usually if you if you start looking at something er if you have one very specific question in your mind like you have already the tools of in psychoanalytical theory and er and we should guilty as @charged@ er er er i i should say and we should use freudian theory or lacanian theory or jungian theory or we should we should <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [there is no] psychoanalytical theory <S2> [yeah that's true] </S2> [there are] melanie klein there are loads of <S2> [mhm] </S2> [er] researchers well anyway go back it's sara mills <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> i recommend [anybody] </S1>
<S2> [is it the] is it the book about feminist er for example feminist linguistics and that sort of thing because i </S2>
<S1> yeah [it's called] </S1>
<S2> [because] i think i read that one <S1> yeah </S1> it's er a- at least part of it </S2>
<S1> you could yeah she's er she's doing is it wri- written soul yeah i think er it's er mhm er yeah she goes but it's not so linguistic she has also this erm er discursive theories <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [and and er] it's it's more kind of er <S2> because [i] </S2> [i] think it's good in er if you are analysing a text <S2> yeah </S2> let's put it very simply whatever the text is this is good because it you have er certain rules then <S2> [yeah] </S2> [to] yeah </S1>
<NS5> i s- i studied erm <S1> mhm-hm </S1> jane eyre <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and what] charlotte brontë's doing there <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [erm] last year and sylvia plath bell jar <S1> yeah </S1> i looked at the ways like feminism <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i and i see jane eyre as a feminist novel <S1> mhm-hm </S1> by charlotte brontë's perspective <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but when] you watch the film erm by i can't remember the film's but the director of the film <S1> mhm-hm </S1> is heavily inf- influenced by edward said <S1> mhm-hm </S1> which deals a lot with er colonialism <S1> yeah </S1> so it's interesting to see when you read the book and then watch the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [film] the amount that in a film from a book the i- input of the d- director <S1> [mhm-hm yeah] </S1> [and and his views] because it was hardly anything on feminism <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and all] on this colonial aspect which didn't actually occur in the book </NS5>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah and that was linked to your <NAME S3> your <S3> [yeah] </S3> [your] point w- what you presented earlier yeah but but was there any questions no or yeah just kind of er there are many ways to do it that that was the <S2> [yeah] </S2> [idea] but perhaps we could er look an extract now or or <S2> well </S2> if you and then continue the <S2> [yeah] </S2> [discussion] i will er the i will present a little bit perhaps well wait just a minute if you just take the papers i want to some general critiques and then the more kind of er specific you can read from the paper <S2> [okay yeah] </S2> [because] they are not er they are not you don't learn any er the er or how how should i say they are not very , pedagogic or whatever er er i would like when you write i would i would like to kind of er er be more strict er try to avoid kind of er it seems or perhaps you had perhaps in many s- there were many perhapses </S1>
<S2> yeah but yeah <S1> [i i] </S1> [that's] that's the influence from my department because erm <S1> yeah </S1> because , and that's one of the reasons <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] i don't i don't know for sure but maybe well i don't know maybe i should be just just dare and do what i want <S1> [or er] </S1> [in a sense] decide what i want [(and just er)] </S2>
<S1> [yeah] because i- it's more mhm er when you kind o- and also erm you are not you are arguing you have the you have the tools you have the data <S2> [mhm] </S2> [if] i use the an @old-fashioned <S2> [mhm] </S2> [language]@ and you will ar- you are arguing us something so be bold don't er it's er you don't have to say perhaps </S1>
<S2> yeah [that's the influence from my department you see] </S2>
<S1> [er well yeah you can say but not] not in every sentence at least <S2>  yeah @@ </S2> well it wasn't in every sentence or it seems that <S2> mhm yeah </S2> of course it is er or it can be said <S2> mhm </S2> well we can also shut up or er i- i mean that er it's more er generous for the reader to just er say what you want to say and then stand behind your words and <S2> [mhm] </S2> [there] there the kind of discussion starts <S2> [yeah] </S2> [but] er it's kind of style style thing i think but then i didn't have much mhm er i really didn't er see how the science now popped in er i didn't understand it but er er kind of you you say a very general claim on on science like <READING ALOUD> science has often regarded women as passive and asexual  </READING ALOUD> yes </S1>
<S2> so i [derived that from because because of the] </S2>
<S1> [(xx) but yeah] </S1>
<S2> the the places <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that] represent different the different institutions that repress <S1> [yeah] </S1> [women] so the hospital that was one and i sort of generalised it to it to science but maybe that was a bit far-fetched but i- </S2>
<S1> well i <S2> [because] </S2> [think it's] it's a large jump at least that then [you could] </S1>
<S2> [but i consider] -sider medicine as <S1> [mhm-hm yeah] </S1> [a very] important part of the er </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm [scientific discourses] </S1>
<S2> [science scien- scientific] yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [yeah] that's er and er <S1> [yeah] </S1> [medicine] has been one of the i think m- one of the main <S1> mhm-hm  </S1> er branches of science <S1> yeah </S1> that has in <S1> [okay] </S1> [sort of] suppressed women <S1> yeah </S1> and sort of put all these notions how women are </S2>
<S1> yeah so perhaps [this is one of the] </S1>
<S2> [that's what that's my reason] </S2>
<S1> one of the lea- kind of jumps that you should write open <S2> okay yeah  </S2> yeah so that er that i can follow the <S2> yeah </S2> er i guessed it but <S2> [yeah] </S2> [er] but if i'm just reading what is on the <S2> [yeah] </S2> [paper] but of course we have er limited er limited space here because i i er , mhm er and er i think er the theoretical theoretical er , er the these things i er there wasn't much to add but er perhaps i would like to see that you would try or er make an effort to write more with your own words still <S2> mhm </S2> more simply and more basically but this is er er i know it's difficult it's er this problem never never [vanishes] </S1>
<S2> [yeah] and because i i because the article , isn't that straightforward so <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that's] why i used <S1> [yeah] </S1> [these] secondary sources in order to sort of , get it <S1> [yes] </S1> [so] that's why i thought i had to put them in here because <S1> [yeah sure] </S1> [they are the er] so that's why there's so much wha- what some scholar says about what l- laura mulvey says er that's why it's there and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> yeah </S2>
<S1> yeah and i liked also your your way to er when there was er you had took straight from the text you marked it and er there were no kind of a er i i , er noticed that it's okay perhaps you could also not not in not here but when you continue this to a to a more elaborate work you could use also page numbers but <S2> [alright yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [it's not it's not] needed here <S2> yeah </S2> and this is also for you guys too so mhm i think to improve the the essay generally is discuss the concepts that you use er i po- i noticed ideology or gender roles er et cetera and p- perhaps to explain your task better but you did tell us it @@ </S1>
<S2> yeah because i thought when i <S1> [because yeah] </S1> [(xx)] something like that i could say i was maybe i should've like written all that <S1> [yeah but] </S1> [why i chose] this and that [yeah] </S2>
<S1> [but the] but i i think er i think it's it's okay if mhm i mean this is also for the other guys here <SU-6> [yeah] </SU-6> [now] that you can you can speak @it@ to us 'cause it's <SU-6> mhm </SU-6> one presentation but now if you don't have anything to add to this we we could look the extract </S1>
<S2> alright we have then </S2>
<S1> and then discuss more freely </S1>
<S2> so this is this is the scene where whe- where i also put it down here somewhere where where was it </S2>
<S1> is it better to look witho- with the lights off [perhaps yeah yeah] </S1>
<S2> [er well i yeah] i- it's here on page t- t- t- (xx) page five i don't but you don't have any yeah mhm actually (xx) so it's about how she questions the whole essence of the church . and the er their law in a sense this , i don't understand what (xx) this is this scene and this is after she has </S2>
<S4 LEAVING THE ROOM>
<S4> <WHISPERING> i'll be right back </WHISPERING> </S4>
<S1> <WHISPERING> [yeah] </WHISPERING> </S1>
<S2> [she returns] to the church because she when she has how should i say it so that's good (for you to) , well anyway okay well er let's see if you have any questions after this so oh shall we shall we wait for <NAME S4> or should i just put it on </S2>
<S1> er let's wait for <S2> [yeah] </S2> [her] i think she she's having cold so <S2> [alright fine] </S2> [she's gone] erm </S1>
<S2> so but did you have any problems with the er , with the er mulvey part do you have any questions about that was it was it sort of clear was there something that you didn't get because it would be nice to know because it was quite hard to choose what what to put in here in order to sort of er </S2>
<NS5> it's quite similar to erm (xx) to do you know john berger the erm ways of seeing so he looks at mainly art work and he has actually has the same opinion with erm (xx) and how the male gaze objectifies by making the female (a mute) <S2> mhm </S2> erm it makes them into like passive objects by objectifying this way and he looks at like pornography and things like <S2> [yeah] </S2> [that] it's really interesting but when i was reading it i was thinking now that's that's quite similar <S2> oh right [yeah] </S2> [looking at] at a figure [(xx)] </NS5>
<S2> [so what] was his name </S2>
<NS5> john it's there </NS5>
<S2> berger alright thanks [i should read that] </S2>
<NS5> [really] interesting book </NS5>
<S1> i was not quite sure when i when i read this er when er when voyeuristic pleasure and visual pleasure are the same thing . <S2> [mhm] </S2> [because i] noticed that they kind of </S1>
<S2> maybe they are these . the visual pleasure is the er f- <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [first] first thing and they as are part of the visual pleasure <S1> mhm-hm </S1> voyeurism and narcissism narcissism <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and then yeah that's what i think </S2>
<S1> yeah but i [i mean in your paper] </S1>
<S2> [yeah but it wasn't clear] yeah it wasn't clear [yeah that's right] </S2>
<S1> [but how] how <S2> yeah okay </S2> you wrote it </S1>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<P:05>
<NS5> i didn't really get the er not from your writing just i didn't get the idea of the representation of the lack of penis implies the threat of castration but i think i've read that somewhere before is it is it helene cious cioux </NS5>
<S2> cixous </S2>
<SS> yeah yeah [helene cixous] </SS>
<NS5> [but does she say] something about that i've read it somewhere before </NS5>
<S1> she says it and er and many many @others@ </S1>
<NS5> [mhm yeah probably] </NS5>
<S1> [you can you can] start from </S1>
<S2> yeah well it's in a sense that uh </S2>
<NS5> because to me that's i <S2> [i have this] </S2> [i enjoy] feminism but i think <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [sometimes] that kind of view i find a bit too extreme <S1> yeah </S1> a bit too because when i <S2> [mhm] </S2> [read] when i read the i can never pronounce the name <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [helene ci-] cis- i found her ve- very difficult to read [i didn't understand] </NS5>
<S1> [mhm-hm yes and] she's er kind of poetic <NS5> mhm </NS5> so she's not really she's not even trying to be theoretical or argumentative in her writing <S2> [yeah] </S2> [because] it's one part of her doing doing science </S1>
<S2> mhm but yeah but the <S1> [because] </S1> [thing is that] that she that the image of woman represents the threat of castration </S2>
<S1> like in this film it's very clear but you should see the film </S1>
<NS5> alright <S1> [yeah] </S1> [alright] because i [thought maybe] </NS5>
<S1> [because i] think the ana- there is an analogy <S2> [yeah] </S2> [how you] pronounce it where you <S2> [analogy yeah] </S2> [put the] anal- yeah <S2> analogy </S2> analogy yes so er but my question is then what <S2> mhm yeah </S2> and i think you are f- k- well yeah <S2> but [er] </S2> [we'll] hear @about you [later yeah]@ </S1>
<S2> [yeah yeah] it should perhaps it should be mention that laura mulvey here sort of . is sort of looking for but n- actually not in this essay but she does film she's a director herself i haven't seen any of her films but i have to see them because i'm quite interested in those now but she just sort of says that the now acknowledging these how unconscious er works in films so that that can be challenged and there could be sort of feminist approach on making film <S1> mhm </S1> and she sort of tries to but she doesn't go into that in this essay but i i'll bet she has an idea how to sort of , go ro- a- at least to certain extent go round these the male gaze and the how the <S1> mhm-hm [yes] </S1> [the camera] and the operates <S1> mhm-hm yeah </S1> but you know i know there's this thing with this psychoanalytic theory that so the what then yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i know] what you mean yeah mhm </S2>
<S1> but shall we just have a look </S1>
<S2> alright , unless </S2>
<BEGIN PREPARING EQUIPMENT>
<S1> you have to open [perhaps the doors] </S1>
<S2> [i switch the lights off] </S2>
<S1> does it take from the i mean the video does it take from if you don't have the doors open does it take the [signal] </S1>
<S2> [alright] that's true okay yeah </S2>
<S1> you have to lift a bit [the the door] </S1>
<S2> [damn it's hard] </S2>
<S1> @they are not like@ [just] </S1>
<S2> [yeah it's] a bit difficult <S1> perhap- @@ </S1> yeah [oh there we go] </S2>
<S1> [it's a (xx)] </S1>
<S2> yeah [ta-daa] <S1> [yeah] yeah </S1> now let's see </S2>
<S1> it's not just pull </S1>
<END PREPARING EQUIPMENT>
<S2> well here's the scene where she questions and she speaks , aloud (and just when) she isn't allowed to do that and here's what's wha- what's the what happens after that </S2>
<DISC CHANGE WHILE THE VIDEO IS BEING VIEWED>
<S2> how she is excluded from the , by the community </S2>
<P:09>
<S1> it's quite intense the way the the i mean the </S1>
<S2> it's very [intense] </S2>
<S1> [how is] directing how er von trier is directing the the film i mean that many directors would envy the kind of how he gets the i don't know what to say @@ the , the not just the atmosphere but but really in in er few few pictures captures the idea of a let's say patriarchal society and </S1>
<S2> yeah er the a- all these three <S1> [yeah] </S1> [the] whole trilogy the golden heart trilogy they're all really awful tear-jerkers <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] they are quite heavy to watch but <S1> yeah </S1> yeah </S2>
<S4> yeah but that also has to do with the er method of of <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [filming] and making the film <S2> yeah but it's </S2> it's in a sense it's dogmatic even this film al- although it's not a dogma </S4>
<S2> yeah there's <S4> [film] </S4> [it could] be it could be seen these er the er the hand-held camera and er [the] </S2>
<S4> [mhm] yeah w- which also you know takes the viewer even closer [to the film and sort of] </S4>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S2> [yes that's true yeah] it's sort of documentary </S2>
<S4> emphasises the experience of <S2> yeah </S2> being inside the film <S2> yeah </S2> . that's a skill er [as such] </S4>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S2> yeah and he's been copied a lot after after this breaking the waves </S2>
<SS> mhm yeah </SS>
<S1> one thing for the writing now i just go back to the text but er er feel free to comment on the on the film but er what i forgot to s- mention is that one one thing of er kind of er er structuring the essay better would be that you have this one question , it was is it feminist or not the text <S2>  mhm-hm </S2> so er to kind of go with it this is your task i think <S2> mhm  </S2> this is the main thing so you could er do smaller questions kind of that <S2> mhm </S2> with the aid er with which you could then answer to this one big question <S2> [alright yeah] </S2> [so that] you could and then you could also follow the structure so that one little chapter is kind of a one little part of one question or one question <S2>  yeah </S2> and so on that yeah that's j- just an a suggestion well is bess a subject or is she an object or is this the wrong question <S2> mhm </S2> what do you think </S1>
<S4> from my point of view i would call this anything but a feminist @movie@ i don't see you know a tad of feminism in this <S2>  alright [yeah] </S2> [that] what you said about sort of feti- fetishising the er <S2> [suffering mhm] </S2> [suffering] of a woman that i see <S2> yeah </S2> and this this person this woman is , she i don't i don't see her as a feminist that what er although she sort of breaks the rules and and breaks the boundaries of her society she does it simply because she feels she has a feeling of something <S2> [mhm] </S2> [which] she she describes love and some others describe as madness <S2>  mhm </S2> and she does it for a feeling not <S2> [mhm] </S2> [because] she thinks , that she should do that she it's not conscious the struggle against the mainstream so </S4>
<S2> yeah yeah but i think that's needed as well if if you generally think about like , because not well yeah yeah yeah no- not all women are feminist but , they can still , kind of a question their , er the place that they're put the the control that's imposed on them so i i think that's she does that </S2>
<S4> yeah she <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [does that] but she does it s- sort of like we eat when we are hungry because we feel we're [we feel hungry] </S4>
<S2> [yeah but yeah] yeah but the outcome is i think , in a sense even though she do- isn't isn't conscious she er the outcome is in my opinion , to certain extent yeah feminist yeah i think <S4> [mhm] </S4> [because] she extends the er the space that she a- as a woman , [that's] </S2>
<S4> [for a] while but does it change anything in the society does her death her her actions do anything for that community </S4>
<S2> yes i think it does because <S4> mhm-hm </S4> in er in the end there's the epilogue after she after the she dies because she's er by the because she's er slashed or from beating but after this er , er death er for example dodo who who sh- who i- w- who claims to be an independent woman but she and she is and she g- she goes working and she is quite sensible in that sense and she knows what she wants in her life but she doesn't question for example the the rel- the ideas of the church , but after her death er dodo sees the her strength , and , she goes to the because to the funeral because they have these funerals where they cond- condemn bess to hell but she isn't in the coffin because there's sand in there because they've sto- stolen bess's body or or whatever and she goes there there's you have no right to ju- judge condemn her to hell or something like that so there is an effect f- she finally opens her mouth and says what she thinks about this this stupid congregation </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<NS5> how does she die </NS5>
<S2> well , as you see she's she's i don't know if you saw she's been slashed here at the back in the scene so she goes to this ship where no other prostitutes dares to go because they're violent and she goes there and she er manages to escape the first time , but then she goes back because she thinks that that's what she has to do she has to go there perhaps get killed but that's what she has to do in order to save jan's life and she goes there and they it isn't shown but but in the hospital she's she's slashed so she dies from i don't know loss of blood or something <SU> mhm </SU> like that </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm , so she's controlling the scene by losing the control of her body is it <S2> [yeah] </S2> [like] like in sunna sun- sunna or ho- how should you pronounced it like in i mean like in where you er in your <NS5> [oh yeah] </NS5> [interpretation] yeah of er mutilation <NS5> [yeah] </NS5> [female] mutilation </S1>
<NS5> sunna yeah </NS5>
<S2> yeah in a [sense yeah] </S2>
<S6> [but] i think i see bess not as a feminist but er as a naive girl , she behaves like a girl she goes to her mother and cries i'm a good mother please and she goes there because she thinks it er but she thinks not reasonably but with her feelings <S2> mhm </S2> [not by mind by feelings] </S6>
<S4> [that was my point as well] </S4>
<SS> [yeah] </SS>
<S6> and she <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [she's quite] naive in all these things <S1> mhm </S1> i think so <S1> yeah </S1> <S4> [a-] </S4> [and] even though she sorry <S4> [yeah] </S4> [if] she's doing something if the ending if the result is like a feminist one but all the process is quite (xx) like a child </S6>
<S2> mhm <S1> mhm-hm </S1> yeah the the er one of the er main points in this film is the to i think i- to to the spectators to , consider whether she . whether she's in a sense good or not because i think the emphasis is on that er , even though it is problematic that they are , as they believe in their feelings bess i think lars von trier's t- tries to imply that er that's the way [maybe we should] </S2>
<S1> [mhm-hm] mhm </S1>
<NS5> i don't know i think i agree with them i think i agree with you from the bit i've seen i'd say that she did have feminist elements in her and the fact that she stood up in the church congregation knowing that women couldn't speak in church <S2>  mhm </S2> because i mean she would've been brought up very religious so she'd know all these constraints 'cause you don't speak in church <S2> [mhm] </S2> [and] erm and the fact that when she was on the bike and they were calling her a tart she didn't say anything she turned away and i thought that not naivety she's actually quite brave and she accepted that this is maybe what people see me as but i've got different ideas [behind this] </NS5>
<S2> [mhm] yeah she had had a really , er ho- erm clear idea who she was <NS5> mhm </NS5> and what she knows and what she feels </S2>
<NS5> [i think that's what i was trying] </NS5>
<S2> [and that that's yeah] yeah that's that's what i <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [think too] that's what makes her such a as a it's a great role it's a great <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [character] but it has its fault i know but <S1> mhm </S1> i really like her </S2>
<S4> but i just it's hard for me to understand that you can be at the same time you can be very sure of yourself in a sense that you know what's your mission and you you know what you have to do <S2> [mhm] </S2> [but still] you can be you're so unstable i find it difficult to [understand yeah] </S4>
<S2> [you think she's] unstable yeah yeah but <S4> [mhm] </S4> [yeah] mhm but that's actually first when i saw this film i thought she oh she's a bit she's a bit slow and she's a bit childish but a- when i s- er saw it more i think she wasn't that childish she was just she was just different and that's the i- our idea how to be sensible and what's er what's in a what's adult-like and what's <S1>  mhm-hm </S1> considered to be adult-like behaviour </S2>
<S1> and reason all [the time] </S1>
<S2> [yeah reason] and logic <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] that sort of thing <S1> yeah [@@] </S1> [and it in in a sense] it questions [that too] </S2>
<S1> [not that it's] [@it's okay@] </S1>
<S6> [@yeah@] </S6>
<S2> no yes <SS> [@@] </SS> [it's okay but it is it's s- somewhat] refreshing to see for ex- </S2>
<S1> [yeah what could] </S1>
<S2> [some sort of a manifest] on feeling <S1> yeah </S1> too but i i have to say i i am a bit er pessimistic about the this film being feminist i think yeah it is it's </S2>
<S4> i would rather t- i would rather see it as maybe a religious film or a film <S2> [mhm] </S2> [about] religion that <S6> [or (xx)] </S6> [this person is] like a martyr that has a greater cause for which she dies <S2> yeah </S2> and afterw- after her death only sort of only her death can make things change <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] er i have a film like you have @this one@ that i sort of not love but respect <S2> [mhm] </S2> [a lot] which is er colour purple <S2> mhm </S2> based on a book by alice walker </S4>
<SS> [yeah mhm] </SS>
<S1> [so you have read this] </S1>
<S2> [oh alright yeah] have you read [(xx) yeah] </S2>
<S1> [because this is on colour purp- purple] all book </S1>
<S2> this is all about <NS5> okay </NS5> <SS> [@@] </SS> [well this is about culture] studies </S2>
<S1> [so you should see the yeah] </S1>
<S2> [and this is the case study is colour purple in all] these articles almost </S2>
<NS5> i've read the book with the </NS5>
<SS> mhm yeah </SS>
<S2> alright i should read [this one 'cause it beats me] </S2>
<S4> [and yeah] and that er the reason i liked that and the reason why i make comparisons with this <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [one is] that there the protagonist the woman does not die but in fact she sort of survives her ordeals <S2> yes </S2> and and <S2> good </S2> becomes stronger and very independent and <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [both in] the book and in in the film although they are <S1> [yeah] </S1> [very] different the one is </S4>
<S6> it's always that never watch film if you've read the book </S6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS5> [i can't do that] </NS5>
<S4> but yeah but it's interesting to <NS5> so </NS5> read them and analyse the two because the one is made by spielberg <SS> @@ </SS> <S6> uh </S6> <S1> [but but] </S1> [and the other] one is made by alice [walker] </S4>
<S1> [but we] should stop </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [yeah okay but i want to say a thing] that actually in the part on the film theory here it is these quite interesting points made about colour purple and po- and from the point of view of the adap- adaptation of the film from this very book and it's quite interesting and laura mulvey's theories is quite is , fit <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [into the] the er [the er the here is it's yeah well there is] </S2>
<S4> [(i don't know oh god @no@)] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> there's the question of in the film how how the i don't know i haven't seen colour purple i think i but it's a long time ago for example the the punishment of the er what's the er er i don't know girlfriend of the er protagonist called <S4> er  </S4> sl- s- sh- anyway she's </S2>
<S4> [shug] </S4>
<NS5> [in the] book </NS5>
<S4> [yes yeah] </S4>
<S2> [in a way made] to beg forgiveness from this certain male person <S4> [mhm-hm] </S4> [for example] which doesn't happen for example [in the book] </S2>
<S4> [her father] the reverend [doctor] </S4>
<S2> [yeah] so that's one of the one of the ways to fe- sort of er undress her from her sexuality that sort of powerful sexuality by by making her repent </S2>
