<TITLE: Suffrage, Gender and Citizenship. The Reception of the Parliamentary Reforms on Women's Suffrage in Hungary
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: political history
EVENT TYPE: presentation
FILE ID: CPRE09D
NOTES: continuation of and continued in CDIS090, session also includes presentations CPRE09A-C

RECORDING DURATION: 28 min 2 sec

RECORDING DATE: 16.10.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: circa 20

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 2

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish (Finland); ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Hungarian; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S13> thank you this time i would like to speak about movements themselves because as i just referred to one of our colleagues in the break many research have been done and papers presented on this subject earlier even though the research er field of social history in hungary has just recently focused on women's movement unfortunately before it wasn't much on the agenda this time would i would like to show y- er i would like to present you how er women's suffrage was debated in the hungarian parliament and unfortunately i cannot tell you that this was a success story in between the period 1908 and 1918 there was several attempts to introduce bills on suffrage but these failed and in my presentation i will try to find the reasons why first we will follow the process of the bills and try to see the (xx) (in that) and try to understand why these fails and had been rejected by by the national assembly before i get to the debates themselves and reconstruct in detail two days of debate very exciting ones at the national assembly i will tell you a few words about the hungarian political system at that time and also i will just refer to you women's social status at the time and about er the suffrage as such in general and why it badly needed er er changes and reforms so that is the house where women wanted to get in in hungary <SS> [@@] </SS> [i'm sorry about the presentation but the] that was not i mean proper shape that's a house of er parliament at the er banks of er the danube again the (inner side) of quite heavy political fights and debates as you might know about the recent event erm i wonder i do- i cannot use er chalks but i just want to put down two dates if you don't mind to understand the political system in hungary at that time in the 19th century we must remember the <POOR SOUND QUALITY> (and it might be very mystical) for er outsiders to see why (it) was so important but for hungarians this is really a matter of the heart <SS> @@ </SS> so that was er the time of the freedom fight and revolution in hungary against the habsburgs that failed in 1949 yet that was not only an independence war but also aimed (at) democratic reform in the hungarian social system with changes in erm er in the rights and in in er the understanding of citizenship so that was also a democratic revolution and they introduced a new bill on electi- electoral laws in 1848 er then when er erm the freedom fight er ended that was defeated by the habsburgs er then there came erm two decades of very strong restrictions on hungary <OPENING THE DOOR> and in 1876 a quite a kind of peace was made with the habsburg rulers that is called the compromise that er settled the basis of the so-called dualist system between hungary and er er the habsburgs so as hun- hungary as the part of the habsburgs' monarchy be- was in er so-called personal union with austria they had the common ruler who was er at the same time crown crowned as the hungarian <FOREIGN> (xx) </FOREIGN> the habsburgs' monarchy had a special social and political structure the politic was defined by the structure of the c- so-called dualist system both hungary and austria had their parliament independently the hungarian national assembly had its sessions in budapest yet in matters of foreign policy home affairs and defence these are the so-called common cases er they couldn't decide independently but and hungarian national interests could not be expressed directly in the monarchy's foreign policy for example , the society at that time was characterised by a multi-national population of 35 million i mean here the whole er population of the monarchy er with modernist and feudal values in great variety the development of capitalism fused the monarchy into a u- economic unit even though the population belonged to different nations and nationalities after the period of decades as i told you after 89 of political retorsions the compromise was signed in 80 sorry what am i writing 76 was signed by the habsburg emperor regulating the connection of the two countries the hungarian political life this agreement was judged differently <COUGH> the different point of views were the following , this compromise had a special significance in formatting political (lines) and forces er and was the main dividing line between those who accepted it as a base of the con- connection of the two countries and between those who refused it as such and wanted wanted hungarian national independence fully erm before i get to the (discussion) i would like to run back another century to the end of the 18th century i tell you why that was the very first petition from hungarian women's side to the national assembly at that time to have the right just to sit in parliament that was a petition of noble women in hungary in 1790 and they just wanted to be observers on the national assembly and they argued in the following way that er they want to be part of public life and they also want to take er erm the responsibility as educating their sons so they want to know about the current political events and they want to know what is the nation's interest let me remind you f- of one more thing the end of er the 18th century and the beginning of the 19th century was in hungary the so-called reform age which was a very fruitful period for er the de- development of (natural) culture and politics and different social institutions and also fruitful time for women's movements for er for example education that was the most er active er period , erm as i told you the electoral law was accepted in 1848 but by the end of the 19th century which is our subject now and the turn of the te- 20th century thi- this became rather outdated as it was very distl- er restrictive only one tenth one one tenth of the population of the entire population as ju- it was just mentioned in the former er presentation in finland that was the very same rate of the adult population only one tenth had the right to vote let me see what as i have it's just a process very simply i will not go into debate how in the discussion how a bill is er presented in in er in hungary at th- the parliament i guess it's very similar to other countries that er there's a general debate on a bill and then there's a (detailed) debate about amon- amendments these if i- if a a bill is not found to be to have the proper form then it's given back to a committee to pre- to prepare it and work er on it longer and then it goes back to the assembly then they discuss it again and they might accept or refuse the amendments i think this er process is very similar this is the national assembly but the recent photo there women wanted to get er as erm as members so let me quickly er go back to political parties at that time and about the content of their policies sitting at the parliament that time let me show you a very old picture of the opposition in 1908 erm similarly to other european countries at that time er hungarian political parties bore the slogans of the era conservatives liberals democrats nationalists radicals and socialists yet their content in hungary was often different from what could have been expected after their names the strongest party in parliament was the so-called liberal party that was strongly attached to the camp- compromise with the habsburgs so it was not for the independence of hungary but that was with the strong connection with the habsburgs it was loyal to the emperor <COUGH> and insisted on er hungary's but insisted on hungary's status within the monarchy but never questioned the frames erm yet it insisted for full independence in home affairs but accepted common and foreign er policy er common with the er austria er the name of the prime minister for a quite long period was er kálmán tisza but he lost er he he mu- h- he had to resign because losing of his popularity in fact personally he was very loyal to franz joseph and there was a very interesting event with erm with the mem- memory of kossuth who was the leader 1848 revolution that i just that was a case in which his popularity crashed because he didn't take the side of er of the respect of the hungarian historical memories or he all of a sudden the prime minister lost his popularity then i just list you the other parties and er tell you just er i will refer them there was a catholic people's party strong in the parliament that was formed in 1895 erm the national party was again formed er in 1892 so this er the the syndicate by a nobleman call- called er (<NAME>) there is the independence kossuth party referring to er kossuth er the leader of the revolution back in 1848 we had a democratic party a radical party and a social democratic party which is very interesting had a quite strong social support but didn't get (xx) there was a very content er <POOR SOUND QUALITY> (socialists) social democrats in it was er visioned as er as a wicked political strength so they they tried to commit everything just to erm let them out of the erm parliament the main feature of the hungarian parties in opposition at that time erm these are the oppositional er members that was er not the loyalty but the opposition to the compromise with er the habsburgs as we see the parties they're very close in er their attachment to classical liberal values so behind this di- dividing line whether it is for habsburgs or against them the content was often very similar as they shared the ideas about classical liberal values but what meant basically for them is economic and political mercantilism and nosses- not necessarily the respect of individual freedom and er and these values at this time as we see hungarian political life was mostly pre- preoccupied with constitutional question 84 or 76 democratic values and the respect of individual rights as i just said were not among the main issues and could not er had a great significance , yet erm there was a pressure to reform the electoral rights because the restrictions the earlier restrictions greatly limited the parliamentary activity and er some democrats really stressed and again the european practice of reforming electoral rights and extending it pressure the hungarian erm hungarian assembly as well , <COUGH> . let me tell you a few words about women's legal si- s- er situation and about suffrage in general as such according to the law in 1848 law er give electoral law to men only above the age 20 so th- that law was er based on census that is er electors were qualified by property age education so only people in special social strata were given the right to vote <COUGH> so for example men above the age who were hungarian inhabitants and had property and education the property requirements for example er either in ton- town the person had a family house of at least three rooms or in the countryside he had a land of equivalent of eight to ten er er hold estate or the other <OPENING THE DOOR> th- er the other criteria come in (xx) <S12> (xx) </S12> i don't know of the (question) according to the tax paid yearly so there was a limit of the tax that was 30 (crown) 32 crown a year and above that they had the right but that was the yearly income for let's say traders craftmens erm who paid enough tax they were given the right to vote also education was a base of qualification erm intellectuals had again the right member of academy artists scientists professors lawyers engineers surgeons pharmacists and also those having diplomas s- er diploma in agriculture mining or priests and educators in nursery schools and noblemen as such they always inherited in the family the right to vote erm as far as women are concerned they were excluded fully from er the rights to vote but yet they had certain chance to property er and own property and er inherit land and er house and estates that was quite er a special state of citizenship but it didn't lead to automatically to erm to vote er also as i told you the end of the 19th century was quite significant in women's movement for education that was the first period when women's schools were founded and er also child care centres er schools er for them er from the turn of the century the 20th century vocational schools and curs- courses were established for women for example in the fields of sewing teacher training teacher training and trade accountancy booking clerical work and official correspondence and in these fields women (are) women were also employed they were given work allowances and in 1895 that was a date from when women were given the right to attend university in hungary so after all these that was really expected that er the suffrage would follow but unfortunately it it er didn't in 1903 exactly in the same year as it was mentioned in finland the social democrats in hungary adopted the programme for general suffrage erm on women's side the strongest oh i </S13>
<S12> well we well we [started late yes yes] </S12>
<S13> [yes a little bit time (will exceed)] </S13>
<S12> yes we were [late] </S12>
<S13> [erm] i don't go into details the strongest er association in hungary erm to pres- to represent erm the right the er fight for political rights for women was the feminist association here is the name of the association in hungarian and this is their petition in 1908 to the hungarian parliament it was first issued in 1905 but 1908 was the date when they actually handed it they gave it to the hands of representatives erm if there will be questions about er the activity of this er association i can go into detail whoever is interested or e- i can refer to very good material and literature about the association if you are interested let me quickly go to the day o- wh- of their er of their action that is er a- another strict action because i want to illustrate for you that there were intraparliamentary efforts for the reforming of the rights and there were extraparliamentary efforts as well erm so the petition that i have just er showed you before erm started saying <READING ALOUD> dear house of representatives we believe the only just form of electoral rights are the ones that are general therefore we apply to the house for the introducing of the same right for the hungarian women and men </READING ALOUD> that was written in 1905 but handed in in may 1907 sorry and the debate was in 1908 erm the process was very long in fact erm , the argument in this erm petition said that if women had the legal responsibilities as paying taxes and taking part in education and employment then it follows that they have the responsibilities in decision-making as well yet they are excluded from it erm , let me tell you wha- h- what happens at the parliament erm a m- a member of the er the parliament announces that the parliament received this erm er this petition but that was a very unusual way because as i told you the committees normally they prepared the bills so er po- a proposition from the outside was rather out of order they didn't know what to do with it so the suggestion was that they copy they give it to the committee that will prepare it and bring it back to discussion a year passed someone asked what happens to the bill about women's suffrage why don't we why don't we discuss it and that was the first time in fact when th- er the author of the initiative was mentioned because first they just referred to it as a figure this and this proposal number this and this and a year after they said the proposal of the feminist association (for women's) er erm suffrage rights is about to be discussed and then again they proposed it to postpone the debate and give the whole proposal to the ministry of inner affairs called <FOREIGN> (yula argasy) </FOREIGN> in fact a large boulevard is named after him in budapest they give it to to him to prepare a proper bill about suffrage again a year passes november 1908 when his proposal his bill on suffrage reforms in general is about to be debated his starts his speech in the following er <POOR SOUND QUALITY> and it seems that there are very strong interests in the hungarian political forces not to debate electoral laws as such not only women's electoral laws but the extension of er electoral rights just to leave it as it is leave the 1848 programme and do not change it but when it comes to the discussion some ma- make loud and (xx) remarks on the ministry of inner affa- affairs who says hereby a- pre- i present my principles concerning electoral rights and they say wonderful principles because they already know that he will not go for general electoral rights and he explains it in the following way the individual rights he opposes it with the nation's rights and he says er the nation's right is not to give each individual the freedom to vote and it's very f- er very interesting er argument he defends his argument in the way that hungary as a economically poor and backward country because of the wars and because of not being independent er and education level is very low he doesn't think that people could er have responsibility to decide about the nation's nation's er nation's rights the nation's er affairs so he (completely) says that i don't think er general utopi- er general erm rights are er to be given to each adult individual these are not natural born rights very interesting and very conservative argument in fact and erm and also he states that er general er voting right okay are just a utopia and erm er again a discussion comes and all the ame- erm women's point is not even touched at the er at this time of the debate it is just er followed from the refusal of the extension of er of er the ge- of the right to vote that just as the ones who were excluded so far women stay excluded again erm another another seven another te- eight years past when it comes again to discussion of the er er of the erm electoral rights in parliament again let me show quickly the illustrations of street demonstrations just one thing that i want to point out the different social classes are represented here erm this is erm schwimmer rózsa er rosika schwimmer the best known hungarian suffragette of the time later on very well known as a peace activist who moved to the states and who was even entitled to nobel peace prize this is er the action when er they actually give to members of parliament the petition but let me jump to this debate in 1918 when it was really expected that the reform on electoral rights will (won) er but unfortunately even at that time <COUGH> the arguments were the following er members er stand up and said er and expressed a very strong anti-feminist point of view it was very interesting they didn't go in general about women's capacity to fulfil their erm fulfil their role in the public life they didn't go into it but er they were referring to the feminist position as an unacceptable position and erm at the general debate of er the reform at that time of the bill in 1918 they said yes some women who merit who are a- who have er quite s- high social status can be given vote but er all of them didn't don't merit it and in fact behind the lines you could very well read that both political parties as i told you in the content there wasn't real much difference in between them tried to to get calculate how many lose how many voters they will gain er by giving by extending er the right and they were calculating whose political force will be strengthened if they extend the right to masses of people and erm it was expressed again electoral rights are not natural born rights of individuals legislation can give it to only those who merit these rights and practice their rights and responsibilities and in the end er in 1918 the assembly have rejected all proposals concerning women's rights to vote so that was the end of er the struggle as you as you see even that er extraparliamentary forces that i couldn't er picture you in er in er details but with socialist radicals democrats very strongly supporting the feminist movement even from there they couldn't get their proposal get succeeded in the hungarian parliament it came er another two decades in hungarian society's story to get the full extended er general rights for voting thank you for your attention </S13>
<APPLAUSE>
