<TITLE: Crossroads in Cultural Studies Conference 1: Childhood Representations, Postmodernity and Cultural Pedagogy
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: cultural studies
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS01A
NOTES: presentations deleted, (CDIS01B-D and CPRE01A-C are part of the same conference)

RECORDING DURATION: 24 min 24 sec

RECORDING DATE: 1.7.2002

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 11

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 7

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Portuguese; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Portuguese; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Portuguese; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>



<PRESENTATIONS DELETED>

<S1> i wonder whether there are any questions you'd like to ask or comments you'd like to make , on the paper we've just heard . nobody . do you want to discuss er concerning this session of childhood representations in cultural pedagogy postmodernity are there any questions you would think important to discuss besides those that were represented in the papers here </S1>
<S2> i would have one question <S1> yeah </S1> <NAME S2> from (xx) university just lost my badge <SS> @@ </SS> erm , what what shocked me yesterday also with the keynotes and and the discussions we had in the evening was that people , seem to desperately avoid the term postmodernism but all the keywords they come with it still stand so i was wondering beca- i was quite happy to see that you have postmodernity postmodernity in the title how you stand to- towards that term and how you find people trying to desperately avoid it </S2>
<S1> uh-huh that's that's an interesting question because the first thing i said when i came here is that it is not my responsibility the name for the session <SS> [@@] </SS> [i explained it] the reason behind it which is in fact i can explain it again that this was a session organised by two spanish colleagues and er they organised it like that and all i said at the beginning was that i would address the last part of their description because <S3> @@ </S3> in fact i did not apply this session myself i was asked midway to do it so i don't take responsibility for the postmodern </S1>
<S2> okay so <SS> [@@] </SS> [you actually] distance yourself as well from [postmodernity] </S2>
<S1> [yes it is not] a term i would use in fact er <S2> okay </S2> [but er it's] </S1>
<S2> [why why] is that why tr- i mean i would be interested in other people's views as well <S3> mhm-hm </S3> why this reluctance suddenly to use postmodernity and before it was this kind of fashionable word that everyone used everywhere </S2>
<S1> yeah yeah because i when i er analyse erm childhood representations er this notion itself of postmodernity you know seems to be very dated i i tend to to to research childhood in local specific context and being postmodern it it always gives me idea that it comes after something <SU> [mhm-hm] </SU> [and] it's that er and i don't want you know i have s- problem of of seeing some no locating things as coming after others or before the others because it's always [a process of change you know] </S1>
<S2> [so er it's a hierarchical mhm] </S2>
<S1> and what you see in in in fact in in childhood representation what we refer to as the postmodern representation of the child is a complete <FOREIGN> décalage  </FOREIGN> well i don't know if you can use that word in english but <SS> @@ </SS> big shift of you know of th- ch- the child to er cultural construction , child- childhood is just discourse , and that's a notion i cannot cope with and and i presented it in my paper at one point which is now if childhood is just discourse cultural construction what do you do with the children that sit in in the benches at school what do you do with children you know in that have emotions that say things that we see that are flesh and bone you know and this is er one of the reasons why i wouldn't use a notion as er in childhood representation research er postmodern postmodern childhood you know because it gives me all these idea always this idea that you have nothing else but discourse okay so it's also poststructuralist which is a word i don't use often <SU> mhm-hm  </SU> also g- this is er tagging it's it's a question of tagging that i think most of the times hinders the development of er , you know ideas the flow of ideas but might be something very personal i don't know about the rest of you yes </S1>
<S4> i would like to suggest not to go on about this term but anyway i would like to defend some philosophers of postmodernism and some philosophers who focus on structure they don't deny reality at all they just say discourse is a very important thing to construct someone but they don't say that reality and childhood doesn't exist but let's stop about it but <SS> [@@] </SS> [there are] there are some intelligent postmodernists who can [(xx)] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> sure now it's just you know it th- my kind of argument is er was along the line that in fact we tend very easily to identify when we're talking about childhood constructions postmodern childhood means discourse er only the child in discourse and you lose track and that's that's what we ne- it's been very much criticised er recently in childhood research that you know some authors that were very important you know sort of made us us made us all lose sight of the concrete child in real life situations because we started discussing at a level where sometimes we tended to forget the child but of course i agree with you it's er if you go down to it it's not it okay i was just trying to account for my reluctance to use this kind of er words but it's you're quite right i quite agree with you (it's) </S1>
<S4> can i ask one question to the speaker er i also agree with sorry i was a bit late but i think i understood that the gist of your discourse and the way you were talking and i'm teaching more or less in the same way but sometimes when i'm confronted with students in south america for example they criticise these ideas and they ask for , erm the discourse of the th- power <SU> [yes] </SU> [because] they they don't want us to romanticise their knowledges that's one thing and when i teach in belgium so western europe , my students also criticise heavily the ideas of sheru because they say we don't read or we don't watch these movies the way sheru describes them he doesn't understand this er but i want to focus on the first question because probably you're from latin america or </S4>
<S5> i'm from portugal </S5>
<S4> from portugal sorry so probably you know very well the situation in brazil i suppose if you talk about , these ideas </S4>
<S5> so this my my colleague is more concerned with <S4> [okay] </S4> [brazil] because she's brazilian </S5>
<S4> are you also <SS> [@@] </SS> [conf-] are you also confronted with , er the things i want to express that i <S3> [er i left br-] </S3> [don't (xx) that you go to] brazil in my case you go to equador you tell these stories and they ask okay that's good and now give us the core knowledge give us the the knowledge that counts don't romanticise our own <S3> okay </S3> do you believe in it </S4>
<S3> er i c- i i so i i went to portugal er i live in portugal er for 13 years so i er my experience with brazilian students is is a long way @@ okay a long time ago but er i think that er from my experience with portuguese students i think that they they want this kind of power too okay and but we ha- or i i what i defend is that er , we can er give them the erm the knowledge this specific knowledge they they want okay they need er the er the kind of er the curriculum knowledge the traditional knowledge they they have to to know with conjugated with some kind of popular culture and the the kind of romantic knowledge you are talking about today , you have to negotiate with them that's what i defend in my paper and i'm going to present in the afternoon so but er sometimes they they need they they they want this kind of power [they don't want to] </S3>
<S4> [in your presentation] you had these dichotomies i mean er students can choose but how can they choose if they don't know what's [what's] </S4>
<S5> [that's the] problem because the curriculum in portugal at least er the curricul- official curriculum is than we we teachers we don't have no word or in that and the even the the the stu- the students even less , so what i contest is the that the curriculum why don't leave the schools to choose their own curricula , for instance <S3> yes according to </S3> according to the <S3> local </S3> local to the <S3> needs and </S3> of course it may i- i- i i my my point of view is that there must be a common core in raymond williams' words <S3> yes </S3> but then we we we can have we can vary according even to the courses because each class is different <S3> [yes] </S3> [each class] is er is er different class and i i teach secondary class so i school er too , so grown-up or or people about entering the university or going to to to to life , and er . they need and they they demand a power , that is negated to th- to them , at least in the secondary school <SU> mhm-hm </SU> and this is it's of course it's er difficult to change from one day to the other because it's so routined er even in er er we finished our dictatorship er to er 30 years ago <SU> mhm-hm </SU> and even people have those ideas in in their heads you know and they it's difficult to change er but , i this is a contribution , my dissertation , i think it's a contribution to to it <S3> [this kind of change] </S3> [it's not in my time] of teacher that these things would change but and when you say that er belg- in belgium they don't accept the films </S5>
<S4> some students </S4>
<S3> [some students] </S3>
<S5> [some students] okay , i myself don't like the the sheru's films but i think it's possible to , to use the the to use strategies with other kind of films </S5>
<S4> yes [i (xx) you could say] </S4>
<S3> [yes] yes </S3>
<S1> okay er there aren't any other comments @or@ </S1>
<S6> o- one comment <S1> [yeah] </S1> [about] this curriculum and and why the schools why can't they decide or or locally h- what to teach and and and so on i'm not a teacher i'm from finland from tampere i'm a psychologist and and nowadays a researcher but but i worked long for a long time as clinical psychologist and done done er , er ah in the field of family counselling for example but here in finland the schools can decide very much on their own what they want or er what they teach and and how they design their curriculums and and so on and , and , now we have had this system , less than ten years so i if i remember right , but er , now we have the discussions or we have had the discussions that we are getting the schools which are the A-class <SU> [yes] </SU> [or] the better schools which have have very attractive er curriculums and and and and get the better , pupils and then we have the the local B-class schools and and and which where where nobody wants to go or where those go who who have to go there or live nearby or s- and so on so it's a tricky question @@ about </S6>
<S5> yes but are are the students heard when they [when] </S5>
<S6> [no] no it's mai- it's still mainly the teachers and and they and then they have the boards where where there are mem- the members of the parents <SU>  yes </SU> but you know er , the in a way the trust or the believe in in the professionalism of the teachers is is still big in this country <SU>  yes </SU> so it's mainly the teachers and the local authorities </S6>
<S7> actually if i may contribute erm i just read a study about finnish teachers who complained about the extra work that comes from planning the local curriculum so they exactly er actually wanted to go back to the older system where the , curriculum comes </S7>
<S5> was </S5>
<S1> was national </S1>
<S7> yeah </S7>
<SU> [was centralised] </SU>
<S7> [yeah] <S3> yes </S3> , so it's very tired er very co- er [(xx)] </S7>
<SU> [difficult work okay] </SU>
<S7> yeah </S7>
<S1> er do think in in terms of these er national curricula and local curricula i do think it's it has less to do with the curriculum itself but more with the kind of interaction you are prepared to take in regard to the curricula <S3> mhm-hm </S3> , and that's why i was putting this stress on agency as a mediation between adult and child <S3> mhm-hm </S3> i think you can always work on a certain even a national curriculum in ways that address the students' needs particular students' classes' needs and particular environments <S3> yes </S3> i do think so and i've i've i i've worked with my students in in those ways <S3>  mhm-hm </S3> er when i had the chance i think it's quite possible so i don't think that this idea that er , this idea that you presented at the beginning you know that you you my students don't want you to teach them about popular music in fact <S3> mhm </S3> they know much more than you do <S3> mhm </S3> and you'll never get to teach them anything or to interest them in it <S3> mhm </S3> because they consider that's not what they do at school <S3> mhm-hm </S3> er it's the places (out) that er are also important there are places to perform and to speak about certain things and they they have because they grow in in a world where they constantly mediate with adult knowledge and adult ways of living and so on they know there are certain places where certain things are done or not so i don't think that you know the change of the curriculum is the key er point to to to tackle i think it's really the way you go about the curriculum [the kind of] </S1>
<S4> [if i may] <S1> yes </S1> if i may add something after so many years of teaching and training teachers i learned that probably you're right but but but there's another thing i think on the other hand we should also talk about the content of the curriculum <S3> yes </S3> if you say the solution is the way you teach it , then you leave (to) the discussion about what you teach to right-wing and conservative people and always will come back and they say that they don't know their history they don't know the classes they don't know the shared knowledge <S3> yes </S3> so i learned from , teaching and from training teachers is that the content should be back in the agenda what you're teaching because if you er don't confront the students with the the , well the latest knowledge <S3> yes </S3> the knowledge that counts <S3> yes </S3> the knowledge that makes a culture then er , they are the victims i was a bit surprised not surprised it is common sense that that a research taught me that the vi- the victims of allowing the students to choose their curriculum are the illiterates , because they stay illiterate , <SU> mhm-hm </SU> er so that was a very remarkable thing and those parents who had the common sense to send the students to better schools they may probably not have the (contribute) er <S3> @@ </S3> good choice but they made a very intelligent choice , and i think that has something to do i completely agree the way you teach is very important but [what you teach is also very very important] </S4>
<SU> [the content] </SU>
<S1> [but if you yes but] if you think of the national curriculum in portugal er it's er it's got lots of spaces for you to fill in </S1>
<S4> [that's true but if you don't] </S4>
<S1> [and most of] the i don't not the national in in in the UK which i know quite well they don't leave you much space to fill in with yo- @@ they don't leave you blank spaces but in fact the portuguese curriculum you know it does you know it just gives you you know broad , er broad ideas of what you should do and in fact , if you do it right you can almost fit in everything you want into it er </S1>
<S4> (pity to leave it) if there is no discussion on narrow <S3> mhm-hm </S3> er disciplines and narrow environments about what should be put in this empty space then teachers er are not happy with that do you see what i mean <SU> yes </SU> so the content the teaching as far as i well i can think , as far i've learned is is it's about pupils teachers and content very often that you have this kind of meanings for you to focus on , er that act- is that about the way you teach and forget about content , that's [very important] </S4>
<S1> [well i don't think you can] </S1>
<S4> but if you don't look at content i know that my teachers and also teachers in portugal er and everywhere feel a bit lost because they they don't have any idea what they should teach them </S4>
<S1> yes but if they have a national curriculum <S3> yes </S3> that's why why if they have a national curriculum they know what they have to teach the only way they can go around it is how am i going to teach this so that it does really meet the needs of my students <S3> yes </S3> <S4> [(xx)] </S4> [which is] the the other way round </S1>
<S4> the what should be problematised and that's the problem <SU> mhm </SU> , what you teach is if you teach an er er a canonical work in in secondary education you should problematise you should teachers from different perspectives you should combine it to high and low culture and that's a very difficult and [complicated things] </S4>
<S3> [yes very difficult] </S3>
<S2> [if i may say s-] </S2>
<S4> [i know it] here but they don't know how to do it that's why they [(are)] </S4>
<S1> [and that's] what you call content </S1>
<S4> that's what i call <S1> ah [okay] </S1> [content] yeah okay [okay i (xx) your question] </S4>
<S2> [i think it's a space between] you know this space in between the content and process pe- people seem to take a part so now i talk about process word in pedagogy and now i talk about the content but for me it's the space in between those , <S1> yes </S1> but because you can't talk about content without talking of a process and the same way around but i think <S4> mhm </S4> the focus is is very important on on the way we teach what kind of students we have what kind of cultures we have <S3> mhm </S3> , because that really impacts on what what we gonna teach <S3> yeah </S3> , so i think the focus should stay on the process work , but not say okay because we we we look at the process of w- what kind of students we have and how going to we tackle these problems or these these content materials , but we can't just say okay now thi- this is the textbooks and you go home and read and <SU> [yeah okay] </SU> [that's what] i take that that's what you can do but it's it's more complicated than that and i i don't er er in the literature i find a lot of people especially in australia are very stressing the content work so we find out that er children or young adults have no idea about democracy or citizenship what do we do is throw 31 million dollars and er give a fa- fantastic programme here we go teachers go and teach and they have they have the content but they don't look at it because they just don't understand it so they don't know what to teach and how to teach and what it all means and they just leave it beside or they do something and they don't know what they do and the students don't know what they do , so here we come again you know full circle with the same problem , so i i i have a problem with people trying to you know when we talk about process or what about the content we talk content what about process i think it's much more complicated than that </S2>
<S4> it's much more complicated otherwise you compare to the mill if you have no grain you just no use talking about </S4>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<S2> no but i think we have to we have to try to , you know go away from this these talks about content here and process there <SU> yes </SU> <S4> mhm </S4> but look at at concrete examples and that's what i'm trying to do in my session is really look at at that problem of of australia throwing 31 million dollars into this fantastic programme and we should use that money much you know differently and and how can can it happen and it happens in a classroom it happens with the teacher addressing these children looking at wh- wh- who do i have in here what is their needs , what does it mean to be a citizen <SU> [yes] </SU> [within] a classroom and things like that which is very much process isn't it </S2>
<S4> well it all depends on the content i mean now you are <SS> [@@] </SS> [talking about] , now you're talking about i can understand why you argue this way and i agree with you but but sometimes and apart from that other it's very it's essential what you say i have to train teachers who have to teach history literature art er content areas and of course you could say (you're) open and teach democracy every day you teach democracy okay you have to do it but at a certain time they start teaching history you start teaching literature you start film , er art history and then there's a different er content of content </S4>
<S2> okay i would i would ask if you say that you know i have to teach history so , what what is history why is history for me important in that that moment in time er it [it it means if you are] </S2>
<S4> [it's one of those general questions] we can talk over and over again [(xx)] </S4>
<S2> [no but i think if you] if you make it again you know a a kind of , erm middle way between process and contents and this (instance) here i am this is content i'll have to do and this is how i do it wh- what is in it for me why do i need to do it what makes my life richer by knowing all this history and then going from from there it makes [a huge difference] </S2>
<S4> [i agree with] you because what what i am saying is really based on practical project for example we taught a classical work like robinson crusoe , and we started this is a canonical work we think everybody should know this work the con- at least the content <S3> yes yes </S3> what is it about then we start collecting material for high and low culture we <S3> yes yes </S3> write (in the) postmodern famous movies and that's the moment teachers , began to understand the process because it was focused on the content you see that's what i was [implying] </S4>
<S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2>
<S1> i have this er wonderful i- i also teach i'm a i work at a teacher training college and i was trying to you know this was a seminar on multiculturalism and the students that would be trained to become mathematic teachers said we were we won't ever be able to teach any kind of multiculturalism you know we're teaching mathematics what do you want to to learn this to and i said but just think where the numbers come from <SS> [@@] </SS> [you know] what you have decided <SS> [@@] </SS> [it is] all all subjects that this is one of the areas that was being that is in the national curriculum and they should teach multiculturalism <S4> mhm </S4> nobody knows how <S4> mhm  </S4> because there is no discipline there's no subject to teach it and so it should be cross-curricular and obviously the mathematics teachers say that's for the language teachers <S3> [yes yes] </S3> [obviously] because we teach mathematics but all these things in fact er can be used that's why i thought <S3> yes </S3> the way you address your your your pupils needs is important because obviously if you research a little bit about mathematics it is about culture also it is about assumptions of culture that most of the times have never be- well we know but we've never really become aware of them <SU> mhm </SU> and and that's a funny example because i have prepared myself so i have research now listen arabs and you know you have all these cultures <S3> [@@] </S3> [here to] look at you know and even when you have children in class that you know that it it does make sense to do the things like we do because we come from different cultures er their mathematical reasoning is different <S3> yes </S3> their basis is different to use even the way they look at the numbers and so on so it's er , even in in a subject area like mathematics but that was just an incident you know just to <S3> mhm-hm </S3> to go back to the argument we were having , okay i think er er , well we have well we still have 25 minutes <SU> @@ </SU> if you if you want to use it to the to discuss any other things but i don't want to force us into being here you know we can move on to <S3> @@ </S3> other sessions or go and have a cup of coffee or something <S3> @@ </S3> . okay thank you thank you for coming </S1>
<S3> it was very interesting okay er </S3>
