<TITLE: Information Society MA Thesis Seminar 1
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: multidisciplinary
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD04A
NOTES: USEMD04B is part of the same course

RECORDING DURATION: 133 min 23 sec

RECORDING DATE: 2.9.2003

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 16

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 13

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Akan (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Chinese; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swahili (Tanzania); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Canada); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S10> <START MISSING> and there will be identification of the impact of role impact or the role of information and communication technologies social security provision however the main em- emphasis will be to find out if the use of new information and communication technology can enhance it may be it may enhance it may not this is a start in the comparative so if it's like i have a hypothesis here so it can be falsified after this study or not so don't mind much about the the title that's that's what i have in mind , well i w- will use qualitative research method- methods and there will be investigation of other arguments that social security has been an integral part of the development of information , information or welfare state finland to ensure their subjects social security or vice versa , because castells and himanen put it clearly that it can be vice versa whether er s- social security led to information society or information society led to erm better use of er better provisions of security , well the two countries are very much erm apart in technology or economic advancement however they can better be analysed together because tanzania is a , developing country and finland is developed country also was er experience a severe economic crisis , er which (meant) both of countries to adapt socioeconomic changes , or rather , change in social services , provision , in the case of finland it will be , looking in the equality principle or and social security er can be regarded as a resource to be distributed erm , sorry , in the in the case of finland it will be it advocate that equality principle in social security can be regarded as a resource to be distributed equally for all in both societies well tanzania , erm , aspire to distribute social services for all during our social socialism and (separate lands) era , (at last now we) i don't think you follow that ideology because i don't see where it can be practiced it can be there in theory but in practice it's not there at all so this study will also attribute the social changes and (xx) to information age to see actually in finland if social security provision is the same as before , er for instance the equality principle and the universality principle if they are still followed in finland , due to these changes the study will describe recent arrangements , by redoing that from government ministries KELA social security institutions and the cost-ec- cost-efficient provisions for scien- science and technology companies . and er . i've decided to go through these social security institu- institutions since they have been seen as the best social security institutions ins- tanzan- in tanzania they all address the (latter) issues that the immediate future needs of the country is (xx) and they have (xx) potential for strengthening by policy review that recognises each individual needs to have sa- some form of benefit well they also have viability and potential for strengthening social security through the use of new ICT (are remarkable) . i will also have to go to tanzania cover issues of science and technology since it's the only place where i can get this information about the development of information technology in tanzania , where my study will also be , (bases) analysis from secondary data also especially here in finland since i don't think if it will be possible to get all the information i need in english since most of the , er communication language is finnish and the (xx) in finnish . well there will be supplement supplement of this statistics in the method to apply the analysis especially in the issues related to the ICT social security provision , as to why i chose the topic i think maybe if you (read well) the significance of the study i think that is the main reason that the social security of the universal human need as you know social security is important for everyone without social security no development we have to develop er economically countries talks about advancement in economy so how can economy advance when the people are not secure so for me that's (xx) important . social security (in) tanzania has been provided to , the less population very few people have this coverage compared to finland or in other countries so this study will enable my country to be able to cover maybe the majority hopefully by the use of new information from information technology among others because the problem here is not only the use of information communication technology there are others problem that maybe is the use of ICT it can enhance well i've been talking about filling the research gap , so i would like to know maybe if the information society and technology is a way to social security provision there have been many studies of er the extent of social security provision in tanzania , and the problem of health coverage maybe in particular or poor coverage or poor benefit in particular so my study will like to combine almost all of them and to see if to the largest extent the use of ICT can help to solve all these other problems and the study will lead to the understanding of circumstances and or ways in which maybe finland has used or adapted (xx) to have a sound social security system social security policy and eventually having a welfare society , hopefully after the use of information communication technology in welfare schemes it will be the responsibility of the government to make sure maybe the computer knowledge is necessary maybe for all , so that will be important for this study as well , (xx) social security education is also covered there so maybe the our policy make us (xx) les us let us invest in education like what finland has done so i think that is all i can say for now [maybe i can (xx)] </S10>
<S1> [mhm-hm okay] and er then it's </S1>
<S15> it's me </S15>
<S1> it's you <NAME S15> </S1>
<S15> okay <S1> yeah </S1> so basically you say it's a comparative study between tanzania and finland but as i , i don't know i just thought you aim to look at the welfare system in finland and the use of ICTs so that it could potentially provide an example for the development of welfare system in tanzania <S10> yeah </S10> is that it yeah so it's not really comparative , well it's sort of comparative but it's more like a well as i see you've aimed to take a model and see if you can [if that can be applied in the case of tanzania] </S15>
<S10> [yeah you may say so because (the method of) compara-] comparing is like it will be finland is very much advanced you cannot compare it [to tanzania (xx)] </S10>
<S15> [yeah okay yeah so it's] yeah it's more like taking a model , erm yeah so well i mean that's basically my first question like , what (xx) like how persistent do you think is the <SIC> analog </SIC> between tanzania and finland because but as you point out already yourself they're really and you mentioned the economic crisis but then again you can't really find a country in this world who hasn't <S10> mhm mhm mhm </S10> experienced an economic crisis so do you think there would be other obvious points of comparison or </S15>
<S10> well i t- i took this economic process because tanzania firstly was (pressured of) economic crisis and finland as well but finland was able to go on with objectives and <S15> [(and and)] </S15> [and] but for the case of tanzania everything stagnated <S15> okay </S15> and we are almost to square one so , er that i just t- wanted to see if maybe these two can be together they were both agricultural countries <S15> mhm-hm </S15> but now finland is advanced country (xx) more of more information (xx) while tanzania still they are , so and i also had to make this because tanzania was a socialist country <S15> yeah </S15> and er it's only in the socialist ideology where you get this idea of equality for all because finland adapts social security or the the principle is every- everything is soci- social services and everything it's all for all and they all get everything equal so with this universality principle also it means it's right for all </S10>
<S15> alright [okay] <S10> [yeah] mhm </S10> but then again you do have countries that don't have socialist background who do apply an universalist welfare system to some extent or another but </S15>
<S10> sorry </S10>
<S15> that but you still like you don't need a socialist foundation for country to apply er universalist wer- welfare system though or do you think that's a prerequisite </S15>
<S10> i think erm , it can be so and can be not but for my case i think here's better that i take it <S15> yeah </S15> that way </S10>
<S15> okay <S10> mhm-hm </S10> er so yeah on on page three then you say that the study will look upon equal (xx) principle if they are followed in finland so do you have like in modern finland so do you have reasons to believe that they are not followed these principles and since you refer to the erm er er mhm <READING ALOUD> the study will refer the attributes (to) the social change with regard to information age to see if information age allows social security </READING ALOUD> so . what makes you believe that information society would shake the foundations of equality and univers- universal- universality more than say for instance the economic crisis of , in the past , or do you like </S15>
<S10> well i've been consulting castells and himanen for , very long time ago for many things and er found that there's a clear indication that there are some changes in social security provision it is not the same as it was before , in education it was free for all even the foreigners it was free even foreigner who had good maybe scholarships at the higher level but now foreigners are not included and it's only maybe finns who get this free education but then they also have to pay through KELA but before it wasn't like that it was totally free it was only in 199- if i'm not mistaken 96 97 which everything started , of course also in the case of health care and we now have to pay everything if you go to buy this medicine at the <FOREIGN> apteekki </FOREIGN> no 10 per cent (per cent) <S15> yeah </S15> for students anymore so this is the change and er , so almost the changes are in and also the this er income equality there's also a big inequality in income and for your another question is that the equality is shaken because of this rise of , er information society however this erm the change is not that much big mhm-hm but there's a slight change is like not as it was before but r- mhm in the health se- sector in education sector that much i i can know </S10>
<S15> okay yeah but as you said yourself a change is not that big and then again changes do ha- i mean even the finnish social security system hasn't been stagnant since its foundations i mean obviously any system adapts to you know on a quite frequent basis to a certain extent i mean i i mean the the the examples that you cite here like what happened in 1997 for instance i mean yeah that , i i agree to that but , do you think that is that sig- big in like , so big of a change <S10> [as i said] </S10> [and there] is clear link between that change and the rise of information society or the the changes in the er the economic foundations of the finnish economy [or (xx)] </S15>
<S10> [well there's a there's a] there's a link for the er information society rise and the welfare (problems) because erm , welfare state is it means if it aspires to give everything equal for all <S15> [mhm-hm] </S15> [and] and then out of of the blue or (xx) suddenly is only maybe the few get the necessary services and others are left out so the the policy is shaken the government may not be in the position to say okay we are having this we are in equal erm , services for all and erm it seems that the rise of information society shakes the foundations of a welfare state even if the crisis is didn't shake the f- foundation of the welfare state i think erm it's because finland is able to or was able to act alone by then but with the rise of information society now finland is among competitive countries <S15> [yes (xx)] </S15> [in the world the world market] and er it has to abide by the rules of especially information econ- information economy it has to be like mhm flexible it doesn't have it it is bounded by maybe treaties of the EU or of the world market (xx) that was not very much like , and when the crisis happened so it was easy for finland to (create its) welfare state while (xx) economy even if it was shaken by the russian's disintegration the rise of information society information welfare state economy and the the principles are have to have the flexibility in financial economic markets and in most cases it's only the economic goal that are favoured and social goals are almost have to be shaken <S15> okay </S15> and finland for that matter wants to copy the volatility of the new economy <S15> yeah </S15> (xx) to face the challenges if you erm consult castells and himanen chapter eight you see these challenges <S15> yeah </S15> may see what it has to do we have to i'm trying here to have this study so the tanzanian can tanzanians can learn and maybe adapt what it but then we have to see it's not that everything is smooth in finland <S15> mhm </S15> it is also these challenges </S10>
<S15> yeah erm okay so er then page four , er you say the study will base its analysis from both secondary data related to the topic and analysis from the respondents so who are these respondents and how you like are you planning to do like er open-ended interviews or one-to-one interviews or and from whom </S15>
<S10> @@ well these respondents er staffs here in finland it will be staff or maybe KELA office that will be will be the most important place to go and er also staff from the social security institutions in tanzania if i'll be able to go hopefully i'll be able to go and do this er er face to face interviews and also there are some members of social security schemes those informal sectors (xx) i'll have to go to the and er informal sector activities to ask what they miss what they aspire to get er what cause do they have living with without being covered social security so those are the respondents </S10>
<S2> er just a comment er i think the the the respondents are , here either in the role role of informant the people peoples who are knowing rather a lot about the matter or e- even in the role of experts as thought to know everything about the matter matter that's not true but it's thought and er you are not doing any general audience [interviews] <S10> [yes] mhm-hm </S10> and asking how it is is there coming some use for IT in your welfare business or not you are not you are not <S1> mhm </S1> making that kind and er i think it's okay it's good this is enough and er but i think the the order of things is that you first made the secondary analysis of existing data documented studies and after that you are more ready to make those interviews with informants or experts </S2>
<S15> mhm okay erm then page five you say the high use of ICT in welfare purposes so what do you mean exactly by high the u- high use of ICT in welfare purposes like what does it include </S15>
<S10> @@ well by high use of ICT i mean to mean that with advancement of information technology finland utilises information communication technology almost in many purposes including welfare ones so when it's comes to welfare purposes it can be health sector education sector and it has been argued that the quality of people's life has been improved through to the use of information and communication technology in welfare purposes so , it's like , when we say s- welfare use here the education (xx) education this is welfare when you go to hospital it's not that it has to be like i go to welfare office so (i'm doing) the internet and stuff so it's like something like that of course the wel- the KELA also have this information in the internet but it's not mhm very widely use , but in many cases here i i can s- i can say it's like mhm health matters and maybe education matters </S10>
<S15> s- so do you mean mainly that it has brought efficiency to the system </S15>
<S10> yes that's what i mean mhm </S10>
<S15> yeah okay so it's it's an efficiency question and yeah okay erm . <HUMMING> @@ sorry <SS> @@ </SS> sorry i'm just erm i mean i just have these questions <P:06> well then there's erm , there's a big like okay you talk about the social security and how that's a basic human right of course but then you say on page ten then ten that <READING ALOUD> information and communication technology access to all being the first priority of the government </READING ALOUD> and by this you mean in tanzania i suppose i mean , and then at the same time in the paper you say that only three per cent of the population in tanzania has actually been covered by social security any kind of social security so how can you argue that IC- having ICT is more important than like yes it is important but in my mind isn't having social security for more important than having ICTs </S15>
<S10> @@ well erm , for the workings and task of (working) institutions i think it's important for the for these schemes to have this new information communication technology and er for for that matter it means er , assists to this er (appliance) or the schemes is important so it's a responsibility of the state maybe to make sure that these people also and the knowledge of IC- computer use and internet is available to these people well it is er responsibility of the state to make sure that erm , all the people are covered that's the number one <S15> [yeah] </S15> [priority] and then when the people are covered then but then another comes another priority they are covered but do they know how to use erm machines and internet and stuff so it's like it is the responsibility of the government and the schemes to make sure that they operate in the administrative matters to the clients and they get this information about benefits about the coverage and everything in the in eas- easiest way to- through the use of the internet and stuff </S10>
<S15> yeah but . i see i understand but do you think it's viable , to in because like here in my mind <S10> mhm-hm </S10> correct me if i'm wrong you talk about two processes you talk about the development of infrastructure social security infrastructure <S10> mhm-hm </S10> which ba- by by this i mean about giving basic social security provision to everybody <S10> mhm-hm </S10> and then on the other hand you talk about the development of people's e-readiness you know the development of ICT all all that like do you think these two developments and i i'm obvious there i mean there can be link between those two but do you think they should be developed at the same time don't you think that the other one should be giv- given priority i mean obvious it doesn't mean that if you give pri- priority to something that you just leave like everything else behind but , do you do you see that there can be a parallel development of these two </S15>
<S10> i think with better policies and er ad- good administrative structure it can be applied <S15> okay </S15> since all the schemes are now erm having are now very much (concerned) of the use of the internet to its services so i think if both can go together it can easily save all other problems of coverage and everything and administrative matters and that case so i think erm attributing them together is better for <S15> [okay] </S15> [my] my study i guess </S10>
<S15> okay erm then erm . on page 17 , i don't know if i read this right but you seem to imply that it's up to the social (protection) institutions to provide the people with access to the internet , it's the one thing that you put <READING ALOUD> (of all) the the institutions has has not made major efforts to make sure there is availability of basic information infrastructure and internet exchange points regionally </READING ALOUD> like do you think it's up to the social security system to provide internet connections to people i mean KELA doesn't provide internet connections either like what what what do you </S15>
<S10> that that's why my study will have to i will have to go also to these COSTECH the commission <S15> yeah </S15> for science and technology to see what institutions like government institutions or i'll go specifical- to see if this how many social security schemes went to apply for <S15> okay </S15> er the use of information communication technology <S15> [(xx)] </S15> [(on it's)] services so it's like both the the government and the commission and s- schemes to act together <S15> okay </S15> for the betterment of the services </S10>
<S15> right okay erm that's yeah yeah i mean that's basically i erm </S15>
<NS13> you sure </NS13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S15> sorry </S15>
<NS13> i'm just teasing </NS13>
<S15> but now i i think i mean it's it's very very interesting i just think it's it's huge it's there there is so much important stuff here and as i- i- it it really interesting but how </S15>
<S10> but there's but okay </S10>
<S15> like how how are you are you going to are you think well i i mean yeah i you i was you i would narrow it down to like i don't know just to try and limit it little more but i mean it's obvious i mean i just read the paper i'm not an expert on this so i'm obviously you have much more knowledge about this but </S15>
<S10> well i agree it's very wide </S10>
<S15> it seems huge </S15>
<S10> it's huge it's very but erm , well i will see as i go <S15> okay </S15> what i [(xx)] </S10>
<S1> [okay] what does paula [say about this] </S1>
<NOT PRESENT, HAS SENT HER COMMENTS THROUGH E-MAIL>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S15> nothing because it was meant to be tomorrow </S15>
<S2> yeah she's here [tomorrow] </S2>
<S1> [that's] right she doesn't say anything <SS> @@ </SS> okay so yeah what about <S2> yeah </S2> professor <NAME S2> </S1>
<S2> i totally agree the final statement of opponent this is er very interesting good work and er i <DISC CHANGE> but er it's also true that this is er really , (xx) big target , which is going here work er i had lot of comments er i hope some of at least some of them are helpful , i come back the real problem of the impact after some other comments er , and comparing , the different countries er i think that they must be discussed as types and er it's even helpful that you are making a some kind of table where there are there are similar and non-similar features of finland and tanzania then it's easy to see how different they are as , types maybe it's possible to say also something general for example , how the things are generally organised or what kind of (xx) system there are or but the in your work may be the meaning that is still in tanzania maybe in that case finland is as a <SIC> contrat </SIC> or mirror for tanzania and it's okay why not but then after that it means that you must know finland still a little bit better er in a way it's so that the , all the matters are or have taken place as good as you believe just now there's also some problems in finnish welfare system and welfare state maybe it's is just a kind of (picture) is helpful to understand here's a <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> if there are from 90s the . deep slowdown of finnish economy and other things er it's , really true that the welfare system was very important how to clear up from the (xx) it means that the costs of welfare state they are making that kind of they are really coming higher very high in that time but it was also the means , with , with coming from the economic recession then the things are during the same decade the things are very different there was a historically the , most rapid economic rise also and it's it's mainly thought that it was related to the , rise of information sector and information industries and technologies and all related matters it was partially true but but not totally because also our our other basic industry paper and pulp it was <SIC> successing </SIC> as well so it's not totally the rise of information society but what happens to , welfare state er during the , during the , recession (xx) in it was in some good level all the time even the cost were high but what happens during the , economic rise it was falling slightly down actually it was not going up wha- what you can expect no no </WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> and er in finnish welfare state literature it's said that this has been , it has been done so slowly and in the way that you can't see actually but the services and the advances were going slowly down it is also measured well in the best studies which are mostly in finland but all the authors authors most important authors has also something in english you have used <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> a little bit of pekka kosonen the , the </WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> maybe the best one there in the s- story is raija julkunen's latest book but she has also i think something in english you must find so it's and then the there is a official knowledge that this so-called nordic yearbook -book of welfare state or something there are examples in our our department library you can find the there is quite a lot of knowledge and then saari what's the first name <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> in every case saari has made a larger english book </WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> about the development what is very useful for you you also but the main thing was that the . when the IT IT development was helpful for finnish economy it's not turning actually so rightly to wealth to increasing wealth er in finland astonishing thing for my mind so i think that in tanzania's case it's sure that i- it's going to be in some time developed information society it helps the economy and through it it's possible to get more money for welfare programmes better welfare programmes but you have thought maybe in your this most important work in your topic is impact that it's something different maybe that there will be better system or whole welfare from health to education and other things or then you have thought also that it gives more voice to possible , possible , users of the system or you have maybe thought even more what comes with this system as with i think the best comparative point in finland is so-called programmes or macropilots macropilots <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD, P:16> what , is was and is the effort to get the system , more systematic by using IT , technology and IT system approach and er for example that you are , finding all the services from the same address everything what has happened to er , to the individual from the same address there are some problems about the , about the use of <COUGH> information there but actually the system macropilots they've been studied , not a lot but er a little bit and you maybe can found , information about it and thus far they haven't been so successful as hoped it has not been so easy , so so easy to make make very systematic nice beautiful system it's not working like that and er we have we have said that the okay I- IT people are not so good they can't do it but there are also practical reasons political reasons for it how it's not so easy to do , so this these are the , er background comments then the main questions is er when you are collecting data and information via earlier studies and documents and then after that via in- interviews er how well you can answer the , impact question , what's the link from those data to this , answering the question what was the impact , i think you must think it a little bit more or i think that you can answer but it's not er it not totally clear after the paper <S10> mhm </S10> <S1> mhm </S1> even you have collected nice material so it's i think for in my mind it it was blind point point @@ </S2>
<SU> [do you] </SU>
<S10> [maybe i should] use anoth- another point or something like that </S10>
<S2> or , try to at least you can try to divide it to more er . or get more analytical questions and notice to which you can answer to which it's impossible to answer maybe something this kind of analytical work you must done think it over er normally there is more other ways to do it than (think it over) </S2>
<S10> mhm , okay </S10>
<S1> maybe this impact is too ambitious a word </S1>
<S10> mhm </S10>
<S2> yeah it's a [(xx) heavy word] </S2>
<S1> [to be used] maybe you could if you use it you put yourself a task of really answering what is the impact and you assume that there is a cause cause er effect relationship which is somehow [problematic] </S1>
<S2> [you have thought that it] you have thought that it is always positive impact </S2>
<S1> yeah and er maybe you can even consider ch- either changing this word and concept or or even deleting it from here just more loosely discuss and examine the relationship between ITCs and er and er social security <S2> yeah </S2> as such the topic of social security is of course very very <S2> [yeah (xx)] </S2> [good is] we are after all [in social sciences] </S1>
<S2> [(xx)] there is a setting in okay (my my mind) <S1> mhm </S1> you can do it </S2>
<S1> so nobody has you didn't challenge er and nobody has put a i mean er questioned er the basic topic which is quite good er problem is only that it's it's tends to be too broad and it's kind kind of hard to get er concrete touch to this very broad <S2> mhm mhm </S2> topic but perhaps you can nail it down to more [manageable] </S1>
<S10> [yeah i think the] the idea of relationship of social security <S1> mhm mhm </S1> and ICTs is good </S10>
<S2> and er maybe you have background and you can this can your work can also be some practical implications actually for improving <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [the system] but , 'cause it can be but those macropilots are the example that that the level of changing the system it's not so easy </S2>
<S1> mhm maybe you can help <NAME S10> to locate some reports of these macropilots [i think er there's a] </S1>
<S2> [i i i am not] an expert on those <S1> yeah </S1> but i have discussed with [(a this this)] </S2>
<S10> [mhm-hm] </S10>
<S1> [yeah i think antti kasvio's] er information society institute has been doing something with at least the west finland <FOREIGN> varsinais-suomen[makropilotti] </FOREIGN> </S1>
<S2> [yeah] i had also <S1> mhm </S1> one student was making hers graduate thesis but , during the work , he got a baby and she's not now back so <SS> @@ </SS> i have still the name but er she or s- she had done lot of basic work <S10> mhm </S10> which maybe also <FOREIGN> varsinais-suomi </FOREIGN> <S1> [maybe yeah] </S1> [it was] also her study but er the main guru in in tampere is jukka ohtonen wh- who can be found from the <FOREIGN> terveystieteen laitos </FOREIGN> even he's mainly working working as consultant [of those (xx)] </S2>
<S1> [at the university] <S2> yeah </S2> in the health sciences department yeah </S1>
<S2> yeah i think it </S2>
<S1> ohtonen </S1>
<S2> ohtonen sorry <S1> mhm </S1> and er he's the best target to get information </S2>
<S1> who knows about these <S2> yeah because </S2> macropilots </S1>
<S2> yes <S1> yeah </S1> he has done relatively many <S1> mhm-hm </S1> evaluation which are telling that there is something wrong with macropilots @@ </S2>
<S1> mhm yeah okay other remarks from er , participants , we've gone through the rather lengthy discussion , with the opponent and er <NAME S2> now , maybe there are some questions you would like to raise , this is not very participatory democracy <SS> @@ </SS> it's rather <S2> [(xx)] </S2> [like a good old socialism] we are just applauding and voting 99.9 per cent to the proposed er slate , right </S1>
<SU> like this secret police there @@ </SU>
<S1> [yeah yeah] </S1>
<S2> [(xx)] food helps the thinking [when (xx)] </S2>
<S1> [maybe yeah] we need energy maybe we'll have the break now thank you <NAME S10> and thank you also er er <NAME S15> for this and then we have three papers we should er shall we begin again er 11.30 <SU> yes </SU> yeah </S1>
<S7> can you please stay for a little while </S7>
<S1> yeah stay for a little while , <NAME S7> wants to to consult you we shall go with the , and come back er , after the break okay , we can leave everything here </S1>
<S7> please stay for a while so i can ask the the transportation stuff , so </S7>
<SU> excuse me for minute </SU>
<COFFEE BREAK>
<S1> okay we have now three papers try to make them in , two er two and half hours so let's go straight to <NAME S8> and who was the , <NAME S10> is the opponent <S10> yeah </S10> right <S10> right </S10> okay </S1>
<S8> okay so as you have read in my master's thesis i would like to study the possibilities of ICTs in sub-saharan africa , and what might be the ways of supporting development in this area , <COUGH> in this former seminar antti-roiko told me about this (xx) project in namibia and i've been e- e-mailing with antti-roiko and he told me to contact juha vartola but i haven't got any answer from him and now i don't know whether i can do this evaluation on this project or not or , where should i go next with that , then i thought about other possibility just to research the discussion on the e-governors in sub-saharan africa or africa because as you have maybe read here i find it very interesting and there are many aspects about these power relations , so maybe i could relate this <COUGH> sociological concept of power to my work . and er , yeah well in those books that i read , it it's obvious that it that there are western world intellectuals who want to implement e-governors in africa and not the african countries have so that much interest toward towards this , and maybe this is because of lack of resources and the countries are just , they don't have money to buy computers or educate people or i don't think so the investments should come from western world which lead , leads to a , weird situation in a way that all the equipment and things come from the western world and , i argue in this paper that would be a new form of cultural imperialism maybe maybe it's a bit strong to say that but that's one point of view , so that's what i find interesting and i haven't decided the actual research problem yet because i don't know if i can do this on this project or or what , so it's very open but i hope that it will be on this area my thesis , okay </S8>
<S1> okay and then </S1>
<S10> and then me <S1> <NAME S10> </S1> well i don't have much questions on this paper i just read it and found out that er your er study is interesting maybe because it's like mine somehow al- also it's ICT that's why i find it i found it interesting and it's clear and easy to comprehend and also your topic is erm it's a good topic that will be analysed in sociological political and economic point of view so you are sociologist i know that you will will analysing it in sociological aspect (isn't it) but it seems that you will have erm so many questions some of them like erm but one only one i want you to answer me is about erm are they all going to be manageable and what what exactly is your dimension that what kind of dimension you follow and then , while you say you may have this opportunity to go in africa or you may not but i think it's better if you have this opportunity to participate in this project for er concrete (studying) , because erm the possibilities of of information communication technology in sub-saharan africa , for a better study is is to be good if you go there physically and know what is the issue what are the problems , and for the matter of er who will benefit in one (xx) you wrote like who will benefit on the e-governors on the (implementation) (xx) in africa who will lose actually this is the quest- question you are you ask why is international community driving the idea of e-governors to africa well when we talk of E it means electronic and that means computer and the internet so my question is that erm don't you see the er significance of e-governors in africa because even if this er countries you say maybe they are not impressed or they are not committed okay you send the materials you send the the knowledge to them let them see if they don't want to use it but you have at least helped them to er to a- to be like civilised or to be developed to help them economical but send them but the idea of not sending this in idea of e-governors to africa that's er my problem and maybe i'll wanted you to just elaborate maybe more or clarify mhm </S10>
<S8> yes er if i can reply <S10> mhm-hm </S10> it's er i see the benefits of course <S10> mhm-hm </S10> there it would reduce corruption and make information go to the people but it just that we take the computers there it's not that but , yeah the country should be interested really show interest towards this and er not just to wait for the computers to come from here to there <S10> mhm-hm </S10> and it's there are so many obstacles in this process like if you read the er challenges <S10> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S10> [which i wrote here] so it's it's what i'm asking is it if it's possible to implement this whole e-governance in africa it's not that simple that just to take the infrastructure there </S8>
<S10> well in my view i think the implementation is only possible if there's a those who take this er they give this african people all the opportunities er really committed to help them they can help them in in (there) and to know that er okay we bring the computers we have to send the experts to help them to do this and er the knowledge help the social sector maybe for this knowledge of this computer and stuff so the implementation and goals is very difficult but at least they can use the opportunity to help these e-governors for because i don't think if there's a possibility of a say you are the part of the developing world of developed world why you are you are (expert in) on anything through this e- e-sector that is i- it can be e-government and e- anything the internet and computer and computers what i mean so okay that's was one and the second is the i wanted to know what is the unit of analysis i mean in this project are you going to (have) respondents and who are the targeted is it the politicians or the media or or just the researchers or <S8> [yeah it's] </S8> [(you know)] or some various authorities in (xx) </S10>
<S8> yeah erm if i can do the evaluation on this project it would be interviews via e-mail <S10> mhm-hm </S10> those who are implementing the project and responsible for that one but i don't know much about this project yet so it's very difficult to say and for the other suggestion to if i do the discourse analysis then it would be articles and , well that's what i haven't thinking haven't been thinking so much but , yeah </S8>
<S10> mhm-hm so that was all it was only that i wanted to know if you have this unit of analysis and could go and ask the possibility and why do this (xx) important to have this idea of e-governors maybe you could get erm better response from there er that's all that's all (xx) i have here </S10>
<S1> okay <COUGH> </S1>
<S15> well @@ <S1> yeah </S1> no i'm just erm or as as <NAME S8> said that , well just now in the paper that you wanna investigate the erm the opportunities of e-governors in africa because i'm just thinking about the development discourse now as it is is based on real needs and on the fact that any development in af- africa or wherever should s- rise from the needs of that country so i'm just asking this just thinking aloud that when you talk about e-government like 'cause it's so flexible and there are so many opportunities so what what you said about the western a- imperialism i agree that we should maybe not just bring there the one model of e-governors that we have here but maybe study the erm like how flex- like what are the limits of its flexibility and how it could be used so that it actually corresponds to the specific needs of a country i mean this case i don't know if you think just looking into one country or several countries because obviously development needs you can't just talk about sub-saharan africa per se i mean well you can but then again there are many realities in there as well so it's just i'm just thinking aloud so </S15>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S1> what did paula say by the way <SS> @@ </SS> who will summarise paula's </S1>
<S4> okay erm <P:05> paula er she expressed her interest @@ in the in the study the topic and said er er <NAME S8> has er the interest and er and an in-depth knowledge she appears to have an in-depth knowledge in the topic and er , better the top- the the the topic itself is not complete . it appears not complete and er is also her view that er it is also good that she takes part in the namibia project and if not then she (encourages) her to do some er armchair analysis that you sit down and then maybe do analysis on those (xx) she has indicated in there in the review <S1> okay </S1> i think [this (xx)] </S4>
<S1> [yeah] </S1>
<S7> [it was me] it was me <S1> mhm </S1> erm well i remember when antti-roiko was telling about this poj- project and i found it interesting as well so i think you should stick into that but erm even though you haven't any information yet but then i don't know what i'm not sure what did you mean but but er as i see it i would say that that the readiness <S15> mhm-hm </S15> of these countries er should be evaluated first , how well if somebody sends computers ho- well , what is the capacity to use them to use this er all machinery all infrastructure as we have seen from erm experiences many of these project projects they just go somewhere because erm the ability is not there <S15> yeah </S15> the readiness is not <SU> mhm yeah </SU> there and that's why some of the projects just go wrong </S7>
<S15> yeah no i i i i absolutely agree and also even if there's there's the risk that because i mean yeah if you talk about e-government for the people basically <S7> mhm </S7> that you know the people yeah i absolutely agree that you know it seems to me that on the hi- higher priorities it's it's really not the @first priority@ because you know they are like you know if people can't read for instance you know <S7> mhm </S7> there we go but and also there's the risk of like i'm sure like every country that you have the elite who , might benefit of certain like ICTs and all that but then again you run the risk that you know it's only the elite that is going to use that as and they actually the people which should be for are never going to see the benefits of those projects as you said i'm sure you know somebody is using the you know the the pilot project or something you know but it might be like well it's a very very small minority of people so yeah and i agree with that </S15>
<S9> i was just wondering yesterday we were talking about those SWOT analysis <S1> mhm-hm </S1> are there any available for sub-saharan africa already just wondering 'cause those might be useful in talking about readiness and such </S9>
<S1> well maybe i would suspect that there are er if but they are er mostly perhaps for certain projects in certain countries not in general <SU> mhm-hm </SU> for the whole sub-saharan [africa] </S1>
<S9> [mhm but perhaps] for this project that you were talking about <S1> mhm </S1> that would help a lot <S1> mhm mhm </S1> if there was something like that </S9>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<S8> yeah there's actually one book in my list here which i got from pekka valtonen this fri- finnish foreign ministry's evaluation guide or something for projects and that i find very <COUGH> useful </S8>
<SU> [do you] </SU>
<S4> [okay] my my comment is that er you know africa is a continent it's not a country and er i think er it would be better you limit yourself to a particular area maybe a country or even within yeah something like or if sub-region i mean with sub-region er it's question of course if you talk of (let's say) west africa which is assumed to be somehow peaceful there are even wars going on like liberia sierra leone and all that so you try to narrow your topic particular (area) </S4>
<S8> mhm </S8>
<S10> but you talk about this project in namibia namibia i think maybe you are going to namibia (is that true) </S10>
<S8> yeah maybe that would could be er good country to do the </S8>
<S10> mhm-hm </S10>
<S1> yeah it's it's a pity that you have not been able to get erm hold of the document the the project documents i assume are public so you should just push even if professor vartola who is formally the in charge of the project at tampere university does not reply you should well anyhow go to his first er res- office hour knock at his door and put him against the wall and er professors are often very erm very passive to respond er to to erm e-mails and so on and er so you should push him and i think also ari-veikko er antti-roiko does have the project documentation but he's just reluctant to to share it with you perhaps because formally speaking it's it's er erm vartola's cup of tea but it's a big project it's it's really erm middle size er development cooperation project in old er money it's ten- ten- tens of millions really big there is a team of dozen people sitting in in er namibia working only for this project there are hundreds of computers and (it has) training erm programmes et cetera tampere university is taking part of that and er there are other sub-contracted agencies who are doing other so this is i think a very good case for you to to take and you should really insist er if you don't get within reasonable time er er contact us and we'll give a <SS> @@ </SS> collegial push to vartola </S1>
<S15> oh so er i'm just thinking well obviously like it's in here like once you actually like decide to focus on or maybe on this project but have you thought about er contacting NGOs that are based there because also when you just mention that er the government or the project has they have sub-contractors so i i don't know if in this case but also again the N- a lot of the NGOs are now quite professional <S8> mhm </S8> so there might well be that there is er well if not not one NGO a part of some NGO that is actually being sub-contracted to to work on this so that might also i mean obviously that <S8> yeah </S8> just research to @find find that one@ but that might also like the people who are doing the education as well like you know when you <NAME S7> mentioned the e-readiness and you know the evaluation of the education systems maybe i don't know if that what you meant but you know the the capacity of people to actually get this inform- or to sort of (okay) assimilate this information so that might also be a one </S15>
<S8> yeah i've been looking for those projects in internet <S15> yeah </S15> and i found few but they've ba- be- been very small like there's two computers in one school <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [and some] NGOs supporting them so </S8>
<S15> yeah </S15>
<S1> but i think this namibia project is ideal for you because it's exactly on governor e-governance most specifically local government they try to apply e-government the local sort of er erm administration of of of namibia in a way to to export the finnish model of municipal er government gov- er governance government <FOREIGN> kunnallis er hallinto </FOREIGN> which is usually absent in in the world including third world <S15> but erm </S15> but yeah </S1>
<S15> are they trying to export exactly the same model here [or something like that] </S15>
<S1> [not exactly] but but [in a way] </S1>
<S15> [how is it going] <S1> yeah </S1> well yeah </S15>
<S1> well there they have a everything is documented like in development projects there is a propos- project proposal something like 200 pages there are er periodic er reports every half a year 100 pages report of what is happening so there is no lack of documentation you simply need to get access to that i can appeal to vartola as as director of I- ISS formally speaking even though the rector command him <SS> @@ </SS> put him to prison if he doesn't give it to you <S8> thank you </S8> yeah or to send police after <SS> [@@] </SS> [him if he is] lazy yeah </S1>
<S7> he's often there because he's in my department and when i go there i think he's always there so it's [easy to get hold of] </S7>
<S8> [mhm-hm okay] </S8>
<S1> yeah right so erm anyhow that's a good case there may be other cases which you come across in literature but erm but you should not miss this one i believe </S1>
<S2> yeah i i agree the [case and the] </S2>
<S1> [now the floor is yours] </S1>
<S2> whe- when and , if you can use the project the i think the next task is to , write the plan what kind of study you will make using those document and maybe even making own interviews with participants of the project and being , namibia , so i think it's , the kind of , (worth er) , if you imagine now what kind of study you will do have you thought it more </S2>
<S8> well i was thinking more like evaluation <S2> [study] </S2> [(xx)] , like but as- now i don't know much about the project so it's very difficult to say <S2> mhm yeah </S2> would help me a lot if i saw the documents and then research it more and <S2> yeah </S2> then decide </S8>
<S2> yeah there are also some goods good books about evaluation studies so there are different possibilities and it's nice if they are not too technical evaluations that you can get sociology or social science in and you had the idea that i liked in in your paper that there is a critical standpoint and if you use the power as one background concept i think it's making it a little bit different , evaluation study er , about the about the , nowadays world with er global companies i think one good book it's not speaking so much about power but it's telling all the time about the how is this sklair's book about transnational capitalist class it's er analysing 500 biggest companies in the world according to fortune journal's ranking and its ranking is based to real ownership not the service or the value or service so it's better than normally an er it's i think er , quite good because there are nicely told the pressures why for example this kind of , this kind of governance may be <S8> [sorry can] </S8> [use-] useful from that point of view because their pressure is set by competition and they have got better manners than ever and better programme than ever because they are means of competition real global companies which have resources to do it normally companies haven't so much resources to do anything like that and quite lot of also advertising and PR work there so </S2>
<S8> what was the name of the writer </S8>
<S2> sklair yeah yeah . yes <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD, P:11> it's based quite a good set of interviews in in th- in those companies mainly and it's also middle of managers so it's their voice but it's nice analysis still that more (xx) i think it's related to the mystical concept of globalisation like everything nowadays </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm , so one concrete hint for literature erm as such the you have here erm some books erm picked up and abstracted i think all of them are relevant <S2> yeah </S2> and useful and you have also these internet sources did you find them all through searches of your own or did you <S8> [yeah] </S8> [get] some hints from [anyone] </S1>
<S8> [just by] surfing </S8>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<S2> oh that's nice <S1> yeah </S1> nicely done </S2>
<S1> i am sure there is a lot more available <S8> [yeah] </S8> [but] both books and internet sources the question is only to continue this snowballing and get get hold of them er i may be able to give you some additional hints but , erm <S2> (anyone) </S2> do you want to continue </S1>
<S2> the- not so much because i think that this is an interface where many things are not so (secure) and er if you get , the project , for your study use it as material and i think the next step is so i said that it's must be written relatively exactly what kind of study you are making 'cause there are different possibilities even after saying that it's evaluative study so i think it's good to that you push vartola very quickly <SS> @@ </SS> and then you write quickly the @@ the real plan [how to do it] </S2>
<S1> [i think] in addition to to this namibia project er for which you have really a unique window sitting in the university of tampere and and and it should be used er you may find a few other er at least books maybe even concrete <S2> [yeah] </S2> [cases] to refer to and then another er source or or perspective for your for your research perhaps is this erm world summit on information society you have not tried to sur- sur- surf in their [pages probably] </S1>
<S8> [well] some of it </S8>
<S1> because you see they have had in as part of this preparatory process they have had regional conferences including at least one or was it two in africa and africans are bringing exactly these kinds of er questions to the WSIS table as you are you are erm researching i was even thinking that if you were one of those who would er pick up this er possibility to to go to this excursion to to er geneva and concentrate er more on this this er WSIS process maybe you could take that as part of kind of use that as raw material which is the harvest of the erm world summit debates especially from african side and er use that discourse as part of your your research material then another concrete national case study is namibia and then in between er sort of literature based er material that would probably give quite a rich , er , er sort of source material for you </S1>
<S2> give some balance </S2>
<S1> yeah but i i would think that erm within this WSIS harvest you will have erm good pieces of gold exactly for you if if you just persistently look for for the materials and at least in geneva where all countries are coming with showcases of er reports of what they have done and so on you would come from there perhaps with ten <SS> [@@] </SS> [kilograms of material] er to to analyse and follow up . well this was just an idea <S8> yeah </S8> to remind perhaps that's worth at least trying </S1>
<S2> <WHISPERING> (xx) </WHISPERING> </S2>
<S1> @yeah@ maybe they are too nice stories says <NAME S2> it is it is possible but <SS> @@ </SS> you you should take it critically of course <S8> yeah </S8> yeah , there are some other finn- finnish foreign ministry paid development assistance projects dealing with ICT and southern africa too not only this namibia there is one i think which is administered by by jyväskylä university mhm but i and er ra- er jarmo viteli the current director of e-tampere er from our university has been doing some er feasibility study for finnish foreign ministry in southern africa also for sort of virtual university project do you know about that yeah yeah but er i don't know exactly what is the status of those projects and plans anyhow if you are very sort of behave like a investigative journalist of detective you would find out er what is happening and who is doing what . any other advice . to our africanist , i remember you were also [supposedly an africanist] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS13> [i knew it was gonna come up (xx)] </NS13>
<S1> [(xx)] elegantly jumped from south to north <NS13> @yeah@ </NS13> right . okay . so yeah </S1>
<S4> maybe maybe er you try to maybe , er , in the course of gathering the information try to add maybe the needs of namibians if actually the ICT is er er relevant you understand and then the likely er effects if it's im- implemented er maybe in the in the next five ten years (xx) basically try to do that and try to come up with certain (xx) that are also very (xx) to them </S4>
<S1> well so that's a that's an idea i've known there has been some debate about the exactly this question around this namibia project because the country's one of the worst erm , worst hit by AIDS every well 40 per cent or was it 30 per cent of the population is AID- er AIDS infected H- HIV and er and it it it's a very se- there are all kinds of mhm poverty and and and so on problems on the other hand it's a country which has a rather rich natural resources erm mining fishery et cetera er mhm and er , er the , the the debate about the feasibility of real needs priority of the needs i- is going on but erm but erm so i- in that respect it's it's a very stimulating intriguing case for for asking what is ICT , worth and achieving in such a case okay so shall we move on to the next one . is it <NAME NS13> <NS13> [yes] </NS13> [<NAME NS13>] yeah , and er , <NAME NS13> 's er opponent was <NAME S11> <NS13> yeah </NS13> mhm-hm </S1>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION by NS13, NOT TRANSCRIBED, 5:26>

<S1> mhm-hm . okay <NAME S11> </S1>
<S11> mhm . er just wondered about geographical (xx) <NAME NS13> said about er finnish er canadian cases and about maybe case of greenland and <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> i just wondered about resources is it possible to find proper resources and is it possible compare so different cases and are you going to speak about other arctical locations maybe about russian </S11>
<NS13> yeah you know you know what's funny the only information i did not find at all was russian <SS> @@ </SS> yeah at all i found a little bit about greenland i found a lot about canada little bit about finland but i did not find anything whatsoever about about russian which is too bad i don't even know what their native people are called like we have inuit here in finland you have samish <S11> mhm </S11> i couldn't even find out what your native population in north is called it's like do you know the answer to that can i hear it . what do you say </NS13>
<S11> i don't know in english @@ </S11>
<NS13> oh you don't know in english okay no i like i said that's that is a big dilemma with me i really don't know if i can compare <S11> [mhm-hm] </S11> [all those] different people like is it really gonna mesh together <S11> mhm-hm </S11> i mean they're going to be obviously so different </NS13>
<S10> ma- maybe she gives you the name in russian and put it in (google) [(xx)] </S10>
<S11> [but this is really very] er erm broad topic for [investigation] </S11>
<NS13> [you think it's too broad] </NS13>
<S11> if to say if to speak about russian and er <NS13> yeah </NS13> it's impossible @@ </S11>
<NS13> yeah i know i [made no] </NS13>
<S11> [and then] this er case you maybe to change little bit of the name of topic </S11>
<NS13> yeah , no you're right it is a very general topic i'm i've been trying like it's different it's more focused in my last title and then slowly go into yeah slowly and i hope to keep it a bit more focused yeah i knew that beforehand you're right </NS13>
<S11> and also i would like to ask you the same question what you asked me yesterday about time limits what what period are you going to investigate </S11>
<NS13> <ANSWER 1:20> </NS13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> sure </S2>
<S11> also i would like to ask about what do you mean about e-governisation can you explain this a bit more </S11>
<NS13> <ANSWER 1:30> </NS13>
<S11> mhm but is it yours </S11>
<NS13> no it's not mine no no no </NS13>
<S11> then er the last question i would like to ask it was the second page and the the last paragraph what do you have some reservations about <NS13> [yeah i mean] </NS13> [would you] specify it </S11>
<NS13> <ANSWER 1:22> </NS13>
<S11> mhm . (xx) . i guess that's all [(xx)] </S11>
<NS13> [yeah i] didn't give you much to work with here (xx) @@ </NS13>
<SU> <NAME NS13> <NS13> yeah </NS13> er by the way is the <NAME> 's MA thesis available online </SU>
<NS13> <ANSWER 0:18> </NS13>
<SU> did he actually er go to greenland when he was [doing his MA] </SU>
<NS13> [he actually] grew up in greenland <SU> oh right </SU> yeah </NS13>
<S1> mhm mhm . and he's currently working at department of eskimology </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS13> <COMMENT 0:07> </NS13>
<S1> yeah . but it's you know this greenland is just a fantastic piece of cake you know the population is something like 30,000 and the piece of land is something like half of canada or maybe [more than that] </S1>
<NS13> [are you talking na-] i'm i'm sorry er </NS13>
<S1> greenland greenland </S1>
<NS13> greenland yeah but </NS13>
<S1> i- it's huge territory and just a handful <NS13> yeah </NS13> it's like one suburb maybe hervanta has more people than all </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<NS13> no no no no </NS13>
<S1> all er greenland yeah </S1>
<NS13> <COMMENT 1:19> </NS13>
<SU-5> are you going to go there </SU-5>
<NS13> also it's the same because i used to live in africa when i was a kid <SU-5> okay </SU-5> so i remember er things about africa , i'm interested [in mi- minorities] </NS13>
<S1> [okay] yes now <NAME S2> </S1>
<S2> yeah . the organising concept identity and culture here i think they are interesting and must be developed <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> quite a lot lot more er , i think that there has been many steps in possible losing your identity because people are , are why not leaving without contents before IT (xx) so there has something happened i remember when , film about finland where there was the phase of colonisation happened where they haven't not so , not so much possibilities to manage in life but they have got very good thinking (xx) with the <SIC> colonisators </SIC> so this is the situation but they had still in the mind their own culture and one part was . of of it was to be the good hunter <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> and get real things with very very long hunting journey it was part of this and er what's finally succeeded with many (that places) and (they were) little bit back in the culture it was nice romantic end </S2>
<NS13> @@ [guess it always (work out) (xx)] </NS13>
<S2> [but er what comes to] this content maybe er what's happening with IT that the there is some kind of turning points people are here and there <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> during the phase and it can be long period er identities even you can (find) them from the source but in real life they maybe are not changing so qui- quickly so they are combination of elements some of them are coming coming via IT more and more more i though the the kind of concept that what happens when (we find) this change transformation period period that they are newly coming from actual subjects but different kind of subjects it's a it was a concept of alan touraine when he was analysing social movements what happens <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> through the people like against the (different) kind of action via (do) social movements and the INT's are s- some </S2>
<DISC CHANGE>
<NS13> <COMMENT 0:18> </NS13>
<S2> when seen this in the page two maybe can can be read as a hypothesis . it said that <READING ALOUD> information and prominent (xx) would help to reinforce the i- identity and increase the visibility of arctic community on the global level by creating (xx) arctic cultural presence on the internet and increasing content in the arctic language </READING ALOUD> <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> is the is the hypothesis for </S2>
<NS13> no er i mean </NS13>
<S2> because er it was very straight </S2>
<NS13> <COMMENT 0:45> </NS13>
<S2> yeah maybe it's just the matter what you are studying </S2>
<NS13> <COMMENT 0:52> </NS13>
<S1> as part of the background big picture in some (xx) at least in introductory chapter <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> i think this is important to keep in mind to remind <S2> mhm mhm </S2> <NS13> mhm </NS13> that this is there as a as an option of course you could also concentrate on on this take exactly the kind of er anti-globalisation <NS13> mhm </NS13> er option of provided by ICT for local becoming more local with indigenous languages and peculiarities and so on [facilitated] </S1>
<NS13> [(xx) but also] difficult to research i think <S1> yeah yeah </S1> 'cause er obviously all these sites are in their own [native languages] </NS13>
<S1> [that's right] yeah yeah but but i mean in in there are , i'm sure there are some er uses <NS13> mhm </NS13> of er , of ICT for this very indigenous cultural revitalisation <NS13> mhm </NS13> <P:05> okay , (thank you) </S1>
<S2> er </S2>
<NS13> i don't suppose anybody has any sources for me do you @@ </NS13>
<S1> mhm yeah yeah i don't suggest necessarily that you do it but just to remind that <NS13> mhm </NS13> this is a option <NS13> mhm </NS13> . shall we <S2> [yeah] </S2> [ask] for <S2> audience </S2> other , comments and suggestions recommendations should he give up his frozen north and go to the [pleasant south] </S1>
<S10> [(west)] , (maybe west now and then) (xx) </S10>
<S1> no , let him er </S1>
<NS13> it's so funny (everyone er really tease 'cause) tease me all the time about this topic and i don't <S1> [no no] </S1> [get it] i mean lapland's great @@ </NS13>
<SS> @@ (i think it's great) </SS>
<S1> it is it's very good i think it's it's excellent </S1>
<NS13> but like er like when i went downstairs er you know over the summer to i asked every i even paid people to do research for me or you give them bit of money and they actually and they did not find anything i was so surprised you know [especially] </NS13>
<S1> [you mean] here [in attila library] </S1>
<NS13> [yeah especially especially yeah] especially in finland i really thought you know there's a <S1> [yeah yeah yeah] </S1> [pretty close connection with the north i thought] and i was very surprised of how little information there was on the samish and </NS13>
<S7> if er if you if you concentrate on sami people then it considers russia finland <NS13> [yeah sure mhm] </NS13> <S1> [yeah] </S1> [norway and sweden as well so you might] find some information in oslo university in norway for example [so you might have (xx)] </S7>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S1> [yeah have you] have you </S1>
<S16> or tromsø </S16>
<SU> tromsø [university] </SU>
<S7> [or tromsø] yeah [as well] </S7>
<S1> [tromsø] university [(xx)] </S1>
<S16> [there is this there's the] sami institute in . sa- sami sami institute is there in in tromsø [sami institute] </S16>
<S1> [er yeah yeah] </S1>
<NS13> i think it's an actual institute </NS13>
<S2> for the and er the </S2>
<S16> tromsø yeah </S16>
<S1> there is [also] </S1>
<S2> [tampere] university has good con- (connections) [(xx) so you can (xx)] </S2>
<S1> [yeah but have you checked er another] institute at lapland university in rovaniemi called erm minority rights institute for minority rights <NS13> no </NS13> <FOREIGN> vähemmistöoikeuksien instituutti </FOREIGN> it's a kind of there are le- lawyers mainly but they are some of them might have something like this you might get at least links to the <NS13> okay </NS13> yeah it's it's a branch of lapland university kind of research institute separately <NS13> okay </NS13> yeah </S1>
<S15> and well i don't know if (xx) any direct relevant (xx) to you but i remember reading this article it was a year back or something it was about these sami people like they have their music groups and stuff and it was just well as you said a lot of people like young people who are born and raised there go go somewhere else for education then go back so this was the case for the girl <NS13> mhm </NS13> that was interviewed and she was just saying that the problem is actually that because there is like they feel that nobody shows any interest for their culture and they have been marginalised to a certain extent to the point that they well not that they are ashamed of themselves but you know they really don't vocalise themselves to the extent that they might deserve it's only very recently that they have like you know as you said they have started developing these websites <NS13> mhm </NS13> realising that if they don't talk about themselves nobody else will </S15>
<NS13> yeah yeah exactly </NS13>
<S15> so <NS13> yeah </NS13> but again i mean it's a question of searching @and searching@ and searching </S15>
<NS13> <COMMENT 0:32> </NS13>
<S1> have you been in touch with the media studies department of lapland university <NS13> no </NS13> they might also have there is one professor write down his name jeff taylor he's a british-american original </S1>
<NS13> and he studies there </NS13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> taylor he's professor of of er media studies lapland university jeff is the first name and taylor the last name speaks broken finnish mainly english </S1>
<NS13> i actually got accepted to the university of lapland at one point and i chose here @@ </NS13>
<S1> uh-huh you you got er like rights to study [for master's degree in which department] </S1>
<NS13> [yeah yeah they offered me yeah (xx)] social sciences sociology </NS13>
<S1> this is not social sciences this is faculty of arts <NS13> yeah </NS13> media studies yeah <NS13> okay </NS13> okay . other . comments recommendations </S1>
<SU-7> we're not teasing you </SU-7>
<S1> huh </S1>
<NS13> a little bit i think more (xx) than anybody @@ </NS13>
<S1> i missed it what do you </S1>
<SU-7> we're not teasing <NAME NS13> we like his (study) </SU-7>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<NS13> i just wanted i did want something a little different [i didn't want to to (xx)] </NS13>
<S1> [yeah yeah i think it's it's a good] good choice </S1>
<NS13> yeah like i said if if it interests me it's so much [easier to write it's so much easier to do 'cause it interests me you know] </NS13>
<S1> [mhm mhm yeah yeah right] sure yeah </S1>
<S2> just er one source maybe that i remember it not so @not so@ well but i think that in sociology there was a dissertation it was mainly about the , main one of the main sources of living , about tourism in lapland this bu- business and er it was er a work that (where is) very critically evaluated what it means for the lappish people this nice tourism which er <NS13> so w- </NS13> with they which they need to get money but that's sure because santa clause is living there you know </S2>
<NS13> mhm @@ i understand so it's a dissertation of of lapland tourism and travel you think i can get </NS13>
<S2> yeah i think just ask from the department of sociology <NS13> okay </NS13> because i always speak with the department of mass communication it's nice to be in balance </S2>
<S1> mhm yeah yeah yeah <NS13> okay </NS13> sure you should check not to miss even if the outcome is zero just to double-check <S2> yeah yeah </S2> that something rele- relevant is not missed <NS13> okay </NS13> mhm , okay so shall we move on then to the last paper of today the fifth one <S3> [okay] </S3> [and] it's <NAME S3> </S1>
<S3> yeah <S1> mhm </S1> so i've changed my master's thesis topic again @@ so now i'm planning to cover the @@ the issue of social exclusion in today's information society and well i've chosen this topic because erm it's a matter which i find interesting and also because it takes place everywhere so it really cannot be ignored erm the problems related to social exclusion are not often portrayed in the media er so many of us don't even know who these people are and what has lead to their social exclusion erm some of the questions at this point what i thought i would erm like to address are well of course defining the issues which commonly leads to social exclusion then erm what are the results of the earlier research done if i can find some erm and how do socially excluded people manage in their everyday lives and are they trying to find ways to be included again erm so socially excluded people are excluded from the information society as well erm so one of my ideas would be to try to link er social exclusion to the issues of right to communicate er that cees hamelink introduced to us last term because everyone should have have a right to communicate and and for express their opinion but there are many people who are left out and their voices are not heard erm it would be also fascinating to find out the ways that people who are working with these or trying to provide services for these excluded people how they feel about the possibilities of the excluded and whether they o- whether the opinions of the of the people who are working trying to help the excluded to (get) make a difference and and or have an impact mhm erm well i must admit that i'm not sure if i can link the right to rights to communicate to this to this one but i was also thinking if i could maybe have a look at some of the ways the the social exclusion i- is portrayed in the media and maybe find , maybe find some some other options from from there erm well i've got some information about organisations involved in the lives of the social socially excluded as well as some people's details who i can ask for some help erm well my reading list is is really short at the moment because i didn't have much time to go through this thing yet er but i'm i'm sure there's lots of sources to cover er but it just like try to find a focus to my to my thesis so there's still a lot of work to do and er and i could re- well i i really need some time to maybe think how i'm gonna link social exclusion to information society because i really wanna write my thesis on social exclusion and er i mean there's many options about the groups of people who i could write about i mean there's homeless people old people erm drug users many examples poor people unemployed erm but if we think about the the media portrayals at the moment i mean you don't see a lot of er issues written on on social excluded so for example i mean if you think about drugs i mean there's lot of things written about it but there's not much really written about the people who are using them and what kind of problems it causing it's causing to them so it would be quite interesting maybe to sort of er link media and , media portrayals with this issue , so that's about it at this point @@ </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm okay and then </S1>
<S9> guess i was the <S1> yeah </S1> mhm-hm yes er well just to start with erm i think this is a really good topic and i don't think you need to think about how you can link information society with <S3> yeah [mhm] </S3> [exclusion] because all the initiatives say that we're building an inclusive information society so of course it's very important part of this so i think it's a really really really interesting erm research topic erm i was just wondering about few things erm like you say that you might compare different countries have you thought about that more or is that </S9>
<S3> er i think it's gonna be a bit too wide then maybe in the like sort of maybe tell how it's er , how how it's . how it's taking place in different countries maybe maybe that sort of thing but not really com- do a comparative study no <S9> mhm </S9> maybe just like show some ex- examples about issue i mean about the situation of er socially excluded in for example england the homeless people and here in finland or or things like that </S3>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S9> and then you mentioned that you so you want to concentrate on young people but are you going to talk about other excluded groups as well <S3> [erm] </S3> [you] weren't sure or </S9>
<S3> i'm i'm not quite sure @@ because it's changing all the time so yeah first i thought okay young people but then again it's quite diffi- difficult to you know okay what's young people so erm in statistics it's usually from age 15 to 24 but then i'm not sure if like er people age 15 are already like excluded from the society so i mean [i mean] </S3>
<S9> [that's a bit yeah] </S9>
<S3> so it's a bit of a problem i think i need to focus [a bit more] </S3>
<S9> [did you] find any case studies on this [or] </S9>
<S3> [yeah] there were few yeah about education and how i mean er er young youngs people's education and er how if they like after second is it secondary school er <FOREIGN> [yläaste] </FOREIGN> </S3>
<S9> <FOREIGN> [lukio] </FOREIGN> </S9>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S3> yeah after secondary school if they don't continue their studies they might be left out and if they can't find a job they sort of it's a bit of a vicious cycle that they can't like find a job they can't they don't have a place where to study so that might like 'cause them some problems and like deepen the possibility to be excluded </S3>
<S9> yeah i think it's quite nice to talk about young people because i always think first that it's older people who are excluded because <S3> mhm </S3> they don't adapt to technology <S1> mhm </S1> as easily so i think <S3> yeah </S3> if you can find case studies on young people and you said that you might want to do interviews yourself <S3> yeah </S3> so that might be yeah </S9>
<S3> interviews and maybe maybe little questionnaires 'cause i'm not sure if people who are who are socially excluded are that willing to speak to me about their problems or their lives so maybe it would be easier to leave a questionnaire and they could fill it in if they feel like it and if not then that's fine <S9> mhm </S9> erm so yeah that's or maybe and then maybe interview people who are who at their work have to deal with these sort of er people who are socially excluded </S3>
<S9> mhm , mhm sounds very good i was just the the one point i thought i could maybe suggest was the er the initiatives on the inclusive information society that might be a good starting point i'm not sure if this is a good idea but just to look at those initiatives and what they say about inclusion and then look at look at those and analyse what types of things they're expecting . [thank you] </S9>
<S2> [there are] (xx) official material in , european union papers there is (a lot of er) it's confusing because it's in a way official , problem and er and i know well that there has been s- research programmes where you can get funds for studying <S1> exclusion (yeah) </S1> exclusion it's has been very typical but and er but there is terrible jargon in those reports maybe you can must (delete) them because they tell how it's officially seen <S3> [mhm] </S3> [seen] the problem er , there are lot of good books about exclusion in sociology and maybe more about the related concept (xx) maybe also useful in that case and there are i think real problems who are those you interview even you a- are setting the age limits because by definition they are peoples or individuals or groups which are not so easy to sample <S3> mhm </S3> because it's easy not easy to find different kinds of excluded people even you mentioned here that via contacts with , social officials or <S3> mhm </S3> special people in the field helping them you can find those er in every case it's not possible to get or it's not even maybe the interest (that) any kind representative sample about excluded people in certain age but er well can be a different plan for sampling is used so-called (stability) groups of excluded different , and different because there are different reasons to socially excluded and after that you (xx) see what is the link between social exclusion and exclusion from rights to communicate and so on so maybe it's one possibility i . as very young i i used this kind of sample when studying the confidence in law i had prisons priests and , police and other good people there </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<P:08>
<S1> yeah so , there seems to be a consensus that this is a good choice of <SU> [ah] </SU> [topic] again what did paula say by the way </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<SU> paula </SU>
<NS13> probably something good </NS13>
<S1> huh </S1>
<NS13> probably something good @@ </NS13>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<S4> er he he was he is not familiar she's not familiar with topic and er <S1> mhm </S1> and there appears to be more to er more to do dimensions on the topic but er she would suggest that er , er she's asking sh- particularly of those (that) people you will concentrate on mhm , maybe this is good </S4>
<S1> mhm mhm yeah , so have you got any thoughts about this . how did you , find this or end [up with this topic] </S1>
<S3> [end up with it @@] well i don't actually know it just came to my mind <S1> [ah mhm] </S1> [i thought okay 'cause] i wanna have a sociological point of view <S1> [yes yeah yes mhm] </S1> [in my thesis 'cause it's my major] so i thought okay i wanna i wanna write something on this <S1> yeah </S1> and also because i find it interesting anyway i mean how how certain people are excluded <S1> mhm [mhm mhm] </S1> [from the soci-] societies and er how we don't even see them or at least that's how i still am i mean i don't well i don't know much about people who <S1> mhm </S1> who are homeless or , or unemployed or something <S1> mhm </S1> and have problems and stuff 'cause we we usually just tend to you know think about alright we're all doing well <S1> mhm </S1> so we just wanna focus on that one so </S3>
<NS13> right are you going to differentiate between non-voluntary exclusion and voluntary exclusion like just some people who are like you said drug (users) or illiterate they can't be involved even if they wanted but other people just absolutely refuse to learn about (xx) don't have anything to do with it i mean distinguish between those two kinds </NS13>
<S3> well i think i have to mention it anyway @@ <NS13> mhm mhm </NS13> yeah i think i said it here somewhere that have to remember that there are people who who do not want to be <NS13> [involved] </NS13> [included] yeah or involved [mhm] </S3>
<S8> [i guess] if you look books from social pedagogy there you will find lots of material </S8>
<S3> okay , thank you @@ </S3>
<S1> i have a faint idea that related research was done as part of a academy , programme , on , information society which er which was , directed by by er what's his name this it's , information studies </S1>
<S16> reijo savolainen </S16>
<S1> reijo savolainen's project but the , the erm researcher who did this was from er education [actually this guy] </S1>
<S16> [mhm no no mhm] </S16>
<S1> well erm , but i'm not sure maybe i'm mistaken <S3> okay </S3> you should know [it i it doesn't remember] </S1>
<S16> [i don't remember the name] </S16>
<S1> yeah yeah , you might check with <S3> mhm-hm </S3> with er savolainen </S1>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S7> i think this <S1> [yeah] </S1> [topic] is especially would be especially interesting doing it only in finland <S3> yeah </S3> doing just evaluating that because we seem to be so well <S3> mhm </S3> and er <S1> mhm </S1> therefore it would be er the reason for studying it because there is social exclusion in finland but as you say nobody sees it nobody really recognise </S7>
<S8> and i guess it's increasing all the time </S8>
<S7> yeah </S7>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S2> yeah the i think that the , one source of material is , to go to STAKES and <S3> mhm yeah </S3> ask give me everything with [(xx) they they have all they have all] </S2>
<S1> [yeah STAKES has yeah yeah] </S1>
<S2> they have a lot i know it <S1> mhm </S1> because they have studied many related phenomena <S3> mhm </S3> from poverty to how it's going with the (drunken) , people's problems and i think that they must be very direct matters about </S2>
<S1> we have in <S2> this </S2> in the ministry of social affairs a research institute called [STAKES which is quite] </S1>
<S2> [we- we-] you will find lot of research maybe it [can be mentio- mentioned] </S2>
<S1> [yeah] yeah there are several professors [and so on] </S1>
<S2> [even it's (content)] (xx) of of us about research money </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD, P:06> there are many sociologists even originally from tampere </S2>
<P:11>
<S1> other aspects recommendations so we'll encourage you to go on your . <S2> [(xx)] </S2> [choice] yeah , so we have </S1>
<S2> and i have tried to find them </S2>
<S3> yeah thanks </S3>
<S1> we have now gone through all the sociology erm sociology cases there were five all of them today yes and yesterday we had the er municipal or local government and er administrative studies and history so three subjects are done we still have two subjects left journalism and mass communication there are three of them tomorrow and then education one so that will make altogether five five subjects er or is it six <SU> four </SU> no five <SU> no it's four </SU> administrative well i mean altogether this whole package of you it's erm it's a very bri- broad broad area so erm tomorrow we have first in the morning paula who is coming live <SS> @@ </SS> and <NAME S5> and then <NAME S9> er and <NAME S4> and then tomorrow we should er take some time to discuss two other things number one how to continue this seminar number two erm , this geneva thing er we we erm have tentatively booked for er accommodation from nine to 14 december i think it's it's about one week the peak of the conference and we have started our budgeting so that er the self-paid er part would be 150 euros per student and the the the amount paid by by the er ISSS would be er much more <SS> [@@] </SS> [250 or whatever] <SU-16> 260 </SU-16> yeah </S1>
<S3> so then that's for erm travel and accommodation <S1> yeah </S1> that's not bad </S3>
<S1> yeah well well travel and hotel the the luxurious erm dinners in the expensive restaurants of geneva are up to everybody yeah </S1>
<SU-16> only expensive </SU-16>
<S1> only expensive yeah </S1>
<SU-7> is it near the conference our accommodation </SU-7>
<S1> i don't know actually exactly but it's it's not so big territory it should it should be (xx) i think it's it's er possible to walk maybe local buses but we'll look at those things er later and er and tomorrow perhaps better to discu- maybe some (xx) heard about the continuation of this seminar now that we have also <NAME S2> here yesterday ari-veikko antti-roiko after the er session er suggested that it might be a good idea that we have another kind of package of seminars another three days or two days where er after maybe one month or six weeks or so and by that time you would er be asked to to write a maybe short paper two or three pages only which would er carefully try to formulate your research problem i mean to to realistically nail down a little bit and focus and limit what exactly how how you would like to articulate it could be just ten pa- lines or maybe maximum half a page er to express the research problem or your topic </S1>
<S2> mhm write in the analytical [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [not the huge] researcher review just [in your own words] </S1>
<S2> [(xx) yeah er] analytical way and also give some arguments why <S1> yeah </S1> and then </S2>
<S1> what i'm studying and why and then secondly a a brief erm er brief er sort of exposure description of your of your framework i mean the theoretical or conceptual framework within which you are studying this i mean the [little bit like] </S1>
<S2> [just just] main elements </S2>
<S1> main elements of the frame frame frame of reference within which frame of reference are you doing this <S2> moving yeah </S2> of course they are related these things but frame of reference here refers to the kind of traditional literature out of which you are er within which you are operating here and then the third point er would be what kind of empirical concrete material are you going to gather or use for this if any maybe you are not going to have any [interviews or anything any data] </S1>
<S2> [yeah mhm-hm] theoretical or secondary analysis also <S1> yeah yeah </S1> like like the <S1> but anyhow </S1> (xx) also materials </S2>
<S1> kind of raw what raw material what sources and so you would plan to have so it's it's more or less the same thing that you have done for this time but nor not er aiming at er literature review and long list of sources just rather on your to explain for yourself and the rest of us what erm realistically speaking after writing all these pages this time and sleeping all those nights er after this you would w- wish to <S2> mhm </S2> to do </S1>
<S2> these have been good papers and er we have seen that there almost in every special case there's something open not so much clear so now you @we@ we expect that you make decisions you make decisions and write them down for us </S2>
<S1> which is not irreversible maybe [in the discussion with us erm] </S1>
<S2> [yeah it's it's now] </S2>
<S1> your supervisors and your your er friends here er you will come to second thoughts about it it can still be er erm sort of changed </S1>
<S2> [it does always when making @literature@] </S2>
<S1> [but try to yeah] try to er to aim at more specific definition of your your your subject er kind of er outlining the frame of reference and the and and the concrete material and er we would agree tomorrow from our calendars er two or three days for this review erm it could be middle of october definitely in october before the end of october before the snow is falling <SS> @@ </SS> we must settle let's say before the last leaves are gone you must have decided and when the new leaves are coming in may then you should have a thesis ready right </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> well said well said </S2>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<SU-7> is it like ready may by may by the end of april or the end of [march] </SU-7>
<S1> [yeah] i think i think it could be that's that's the time we can talk about the timetable but you don't have so much this winter erm classes for your languages and er other things you are pretty much now maybe 90 per cent free to work on your thesis isn't that so <SU> mhm-hm </SU> yeah therefore we must now hurry up to at least decide what is the topic an then you would w- you would do and we we are open and flexible about the ways of of of er methods of er working with this seminar it may not be very practical to to mechanically meet once a week <SU> no </SU> but on the other hand it's not very good to leave you alone for months er it we should we should meet let's say </S1>
<S10> in two months' time </S10>
<S1> yeah yeah one between er intervals of one or two months now we are in the first days of september we should see before the end of october maybe middle of october or something <S2> maybe </S2> we can look at the calendars tomorrow </S1>
<S2> middle maybe we could </S2>
<S1> right and always you are welcome to consult your your supervisors all those five today should go to see <NAME S2> and his colleagues and er and so on <S2> yeah </S2> and you are also welcome to see others erm a- as we have now er agreed </S1>
