<TITLE: Introduction to Occupational Health
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: medicine
DISCIPLINE: public health
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD160
NOTES: 

RECORDING DURATION: 131 min 33 sec

RECORDING DATE: 12.4.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 10

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 10

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish, Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dangme (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Nepali; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

BS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Igbo, English (Nigeria); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown (Tanzania); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Twi (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S2> okay , the aim of this seminar is then to to discuss the visits you you had last friday and and monday and er we start with the the paper mill and then go on to the <COUGH> to the finnish institute of occupational health and er then the last er the work and safety exhibition and er i've got almost all all forms from you just get your and and <SU> yeah </SU> your <NAME S5> [is] </S2>
<S5> [i] sent it </S5>
<S2> yeah i l- <NAME S3> <NAME S3> look for it now but you have your own you have copy of it there </S2>
<S5> yeah not exactly this is a draft <S2> [okay okay yeah] </S2> [i did (xx) i have] it on the computer so i can print it if she doesn't get it </S5>
<S2> okay well i think we start then and er so the aim of this er seminar is is to to get a let's say a l- small hint of a of practical occupational health and er and er the the wa- er you had a s- let's say short walk through the paper mill and had some discussion listen listen to to to persons from the factory and if you can start now to some of you to tell a little bit about what kind of paper mill this was i mean er what kind of what kind of personnel they have and and so on , can we start with you <NAME S10> <S10> mhm </S10> or have you prepared any do we need this <REFERRING TO OVERHEAD PROJECTOR> <S4> [no] </S4> [i] don't think we need it you can <S4> [well] </S4> [because] or have you </S2>
<S4> everyone said that it would be like general discussion <S2> [yes] </S2> [so] we were not preparing [slides] </S4>
<S2> [no no] no that that way you can you can close @that down@ yes but if if you start er to tell about er what you what what kind of paper industry you went to and then we go on to s- have the risk assessment and then the occu- wha- what kind of occupational health service they have so you we go through all of you then <S10> okay </S10> is it better to to be i mean [a little bit] </S2>
<S8> [and turn into] circle </S8>
<S2> @that way you@ you sitting </S2>
<S1> can we turn to [be as a circle] </S1>
<S2> [yeah if you turn] the </S2>
<BEGIN MOVING TABLES AROUND>
<S8> we can turn the table (away) </S8>
<P:08>
<S2> better to talk to each other than to [just to us] </S2>
<SU> [no no don't break it] no no </SU>
<S8> you need to put it there , fine </S8>
<SU> oh that way </SU>
<S8> sorry </S8>
<S2> so this is the mic <SU> [yes] </SU> [this] this is the microphone <SU> yes </SU> okay @yeah it doesn't looks like@ </S2>
<S8> behind it <S2> okay </S2> and then then there (xx) thank you </S8>
<SS> (xx) </SS>
<P:15>
<END MOVING TABLES AROUND>
<S10> okay erm we went to visit to paper mill on the seventh of april two-0-six to assess the situation the work situation of the company how they produce their papers the number of employees they have the work situation of it whether it is hazardous to the labourers over there or if there are some good mechanism put in place in the work place to protect the occupational health safety of workers or personnels in the company er actually we had a nice lecture and then we were taken around the stages of er production in the paper mill well actually the main papers they do is er the hard-cover paper which the some of their clients or customers for those papers are the cigarette or tobacco company </S10>
<S8> they make the boxes </S8>
<S10> yeah they they they use those papers to make the boxes of cigarettes so that is the hard cover of <SU> mhm </SU> cigarette sticks and they get some of their er products or their raw material some of them are not s- manufactured here in finland many of them are imported er something like the clay they use clay to make the paper and the clay portrays the white surface of the paper ha- the erm the hard er substance also in the middle is not er produced here it's imported mostly so there were three stages of production we have the er the first stage the middle stage and then the finishing stage and each of these stages are equipped with technical experts who look at the production stages and they do not s- you know er strain their body too much everything is computerised in the system where they monitor the system from er a control room so the computers serve as the place where they can look at all the processing stages so that if there is something going on wrong they can detect it from the computer and then intervene quickly , well actually er the company has about 448 personnel , and er out of this percentage about 85 per cents of the personnels are male and then 15 per cents are female . and it has er about 50 per cents of the personnel doing blue-collar job er which implies the technical units and the monitoring of the stages of production which does not involve er er the white-collar or the office or the administrative sector and then the 20 per cent are also in the administrative administrative sector and er the company has about 92 per cent permanent employees and er eight per cent are temporary and they have day shifts they have one to five two to seven three to seven type of shift arrangement because it's a 24-hour production company and er at any point in time there should be people in the company monitoring er basically the company has not had any occupational health disease , (xx) occupational or minimal occupational health disease and then they have 27 occupational health accidents . over two-0-four and two-0-five data is not yet available . and then when you come to the , er evaluating the chemical risk factors physical risk factors biological risk factors physical workload mental workload accidents and dangers and when we look at that side too we can see that well it's a chemi- they have chemicals in the company but these are controlled in a a particular way that it is not you know hazardous to the workers so gases and dust and dangers of eczemas are minimal or we cannot see them , well they have some steam water vapour coming out from the chimney of the company which is also controlled upward it it doesn't contaminate the people over there then we have the physical risk factors noise vibration and then temperature radiation well actually when you go to the engine rooms the control monitoring system is near to the machines and there is some level of noise which you need an ear (xx) to fixed into your ears before you can you walk around or be in the premises so i hope those people monitoring the listen to there is some protective glasses over there but er definitely they may experience some bit of noise and then er we have the physical workload strain of arms neck back and legs poor work postures mhm well actually those are the computer sectors that monitor the system in the work place er where they all the time watch or they are supposed to watch at all time to see in a quick in a quick er f- faults so that they can intervene so actually well some strain because is there even though it's not er stereotype that you should strain your (xx) but should be a bit (xx) the system so at least some strain could be you know sustained and er the neck yes you use your neck to look at the computer so that's where where your tension is on neck pains and then then back you sit all the time on the chair and er the chair situation was not so well all that flexible it was something like this one we sit on so the work ergonomic situation of the chair is not s- somehow appreciable but er it can also perhaps cause back , back pains and then the legs well er the legs are at free position or posture well posture it is always sitting all the time they sit upright so there there is no posture deformities but er sitting all the time sometime (xx) and they can also walk around during breaks and there are people who are there to you know relieve some of them and then mental workload yeah mental workload is not all that er intensive because everything is carried by the computer they need not to calculate certain things but just to observe and see any mistakes going on so that you (xx) so mental workload well it's a bit not very much and then accidents and dangers er well er there are some machines you know work moving around in the premises well there are some workers also there something like the fork- the fork-lifts machine not lifts they process items to from one stage to another then there are some people at the finishing point that interact with these machines but er there has not been any serious er conflicts between these machines and , and the manager said well sometimes there may be some small pains but not so serious so their assessment (xx) er a bit you know accidents there so , so this is about the paper er pulp industry </S10>
<S2> yeah thank you thank you (xx) if you want to go and sit beside <NAME S8> @you don't have to be in the middle here you can be there but@ okay so was this the first time for you in a paper mill or have you been in a paper mill like this before <S10> no </S10> nobody has </S2>
<SU> no </SU>
<S5> i've i've been to er this the not a paper mill but a press so i was thinking it might be the same thing <S2> oh yeah </S2> like (xx) press where they produce these er <S2> [yeah] </S2> [publications] and so i was thinking it might be the same but </S5>
<S2> so you agree with <NAME S10> that that er 80 per cent blue-collar workers sitting behind a computer working like in the office is that the picture </S2>
<SS> [no no no] </SS>
<S8> [no not all of them] there were like er er truck drivers what is is it truck drivers i don't know <FOREIGN> trukkikuski </FOREIGN> <S2> uh-huh </S2> <S9> [yeah] </S9> [there] were er cleaners and erm er there were er office workers </S8>
<S2> [yeah] </S2>
<S9> [the] <S1> [but but] </S1> [finish people] in the finishing department there also </S9>
<S2> yeah but if we take now the the paper mill first and then go after a while to the to the institute of occupational health then </S2>
<S1> and how <S9> [yeah] </S9> [about] the maintaining because i i i think that the mo- most of them are working with er with maintaining situations and </S1>
<S8> yes </S8>
<BS7> yeah [80 85 are in the technical] </BS7>
<S1> [so so they are they are not just sitting] there </S1>
<BS7> technical but er 15 are administrators </BS7>
<S2> yeah so the education for for most of the people is something engi- engineering or technical </S2>
<S8> yes most of [them] </S8>
<BS7> [yeah] [(xx)] </BS7>
<S2> [most of them] </S2>
<S10> most of them are engineering </S10>
<S1> i i i think that </S1>
<S8> [well technical personnel (they would be called)] </S8>
<S1> [maybe not maybe] just technicals </S1>
<SU> technical </SU>
<S2> mhm yeah </S2>
<BS7> yeah technicals perhaps yeah </BS7>
<S9> [so this blue-col-] </S9>
<S5> [erm i'm you know] i'm getting @a bit@ confused </S5>
<S9> yeah [there's a] </S9>
<S5> [are] we talking about the paper mill </S5>
<S9> [yeah paper mill] </S9>
<SS> [yes mhm-hm] </SS>
<S2> [pa-] paper mill we are talking about the paper mill now [first] </S2>
<S9> [yeah] this blue-collar job er it involves people like the operators who operate it from the computer and see whether the machines operate in the way they suppose to be and there are also workers in the the paper the finishing part they were also the blue-collar <S2> yeah </S2> workers yeah </S9>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<BS7> and those who drive <S9> [yeah] </S9> [drive] the tractors <S2> [mhm-hm] <S9> [exactly] </S9> </S2> carry the papers </BS7>
<S9> yeah </S9>
<S2> so what if something happened if they see in the screen that something wrong do they what what do they do anything do they still sit there and watch or <S5> no [they] </S5> [do] they s- themself have to do go to the to the to the </S2>
<S9> system yes [they basically] </S9>
<S2> [yeah] </S2>
<S5> [yeah they they] use the machines their computers are good </S5>
<S2> so it's just not er watching the screen it's then when something is wrong with the production then they have to go there to find out what is [wrong yeah] </S2>
<S10> [yeah actually] [(xx)] </S10>
<S2> [how often] oh sorry </S2>
<S10> they're watching the machine <S2> yeah </S2> to detect any fault <S2> yeah </S2> and then at the same time those fault that they detect and they can't do it they will send signals to the maintenance <S2> yeah </S2> units which is also there all the time and it is part of the 80 per cent er blue-collar job people <S2> [yeah] </S2> [working] in the company and they operate on shifts so there's some sort of [coordination] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> those thing that they can't do <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [they] will make the right technical unit people to go and do [it] </S10>
<S2> [yeah] how often does something happen i mean something the line is stopped or something happened that they have to do something have [you any] </S2>
<S8> [they] they didn't say any figure they said it's quite seldom <S2> okay </S2> but the there er they are going to er shut the engines er once in three weeks the whole day <S2> yeah </S2> from morning six AM to to four PM and er then the machine is er not not in function </S8>
<S2> so it's some kind of maintenance [work] </S2>
<SS> [yeah yes] </SS>
<S10> every three weeks <S2> every [three] </S2> [they] use one day to [clean the machines and yeah] </S10>
<S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2>
<S5> and i think i was very much impressed by their maintenance culture because it it it could for some companies once the machines are running no or they have it maybe once in a year or <S2> [yeah] </S2> [something] like that but once in every 30 days i think that is ev- every <BS7> [three weeks yeah] </BS7> [three weeks or once] in every three weeks i think that is very good maintenance [culture] </S5>
<S2> [yeah] yes </S2>
<BS7> it depends also on the kind of machine and the workload and so this one is er something you use 24 hours so it <S2> yeah </S2> it requires such kind of maintenance but if something for instance you use three hours a day <S2> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S2> it may not need er erm maintenance often </BS7>
<S2> yeah . so so you ha- did you expected this kind of work i mean it was no surprise for you seeing people behind the screen yeah </S2>
<S8> i was really surprised i thought that they are working more with machines and they are [standing between them and] </S8>
<S2> [yeah that that's my] [impression first time] </S2>
<S1> [but but i think] that we have to remember because they were eating <S8> [yes] </S8> [it] was their lunch break </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [but but but i think whenever] i have been in that that kind of company saw mills the same thing you don't see so much <S5> [yeah] </S5> [people] @and that that's@ i i was surprised <S5> yes </S5> i'm always a little bit surprised that the you'd think that paper mill it's all time people going and doing something you see it the the physical work but you don't see so much [nowadays] </S2>
<S8> [they have developed] all kind of er helping [machines to do the lifting and] <S2> [yes yes yes] yes </S2> moving and <S2> yes </S2> so we saw some er groups of men discussing each other and er they were shouting each other and ha- and er using hands and they are like <S9> @mhm@ </S9> <S2> [yeah] </S2> [because] the noi- er er that <S2> [yeah] </S2> [was] quite noisy place <S2> yes </S2> and they were shouting each other <S2> yeah </S2> @@ </S8>
<S5> er o- one think that i after this which i i realised that i failed to ask was how reliable the computers were the monitoring system <S2> [yeah] </S2> [what] (xx) that there there was a problem but it was unable to detect it i regrettably didn't ask @i don't know@ </S5>
<S2> yeah but it should be quite reliable yes because er stops in the production they're very very it's very costful and it costs very much so i mean they have to if if something went wrong they have to to do the service very very fast i don't know the exact figures but but i know that it's it's very it's costs very much </S2>
<BS7> and for me i think that is the the best way to monitor it because it is a huge place <S2> yeah </S2> and the machines are so big i i even asked them who produces er those machines <S2> mhm-hm </S2> so if you don't have such monitoring system that <S2> mhm </S2> looks at everything at the same time <S2> mhm-hm </S2> it will be difficult to really know <S2> [yes] </S2> [where] the problem is <S2> yes [yeah yeah] </S2> [so i think that] using computer is is the best option </BS7>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S8> so he only saw huge machines <S2> yeah @@ </S2> water and steam and heatness and some paper came out or carton came <S2> [yeah] </S2> [out] @that was the only@ only what we saw actually <S2> yeah [and] </S2> [and] we saw those big rolls rolling [and er] </S8>
<S2> [yeah] yeah </S2>
<S4> yeah the rolls were impressive @@ </S4>
<S2> if i remember right it's the one of the world's most er best paper it's the they are one of the leading paper mills producing best quality high-quality paper th- for for different uses but er it's it's very high-quality of that but then the risk assessment i i saw if we take first the chemical risk factors <NAME S10> said none i i look at the other one you you have put something a little bit or very much do you agree with the there's no no gases or sawdusts there i think you said something else </S2>
<S8> yes i i put a little bit <S2> [yeah] </S2> [because] i think that er there is a possibil- possibility for risk <S2> mhm-hm </S2> er when you need to go to to check those chemicals or add or or do tho- those person who are working with <S2> [yeah] </S2> [chemicals] and this er process er and er there is a risk available but they they have minimised those risks they try to minimise it all the time and they have er good plans and er <S2> yeah </S2> and er what to do to avoid those risks </S8>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S9> concerning the chemical i asked a question about whether like er how do they manage the waste product <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [what kind] of the production and the chemicals they use they said their system is a closed system so there's er no way would the people people could be er get i mean con- contact contacted with these chemicals so they have a closed [system] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> and the mainly their chemicals is this marble calcium carbonate which is <S2> mhm </S2> nothing it's not that much harmful yeah it's one of the chemical <S2> [yeah] </S2> [they] use in the production of paper <S2> yeah </S2> mhm so that i don't think there's so much exposure <S2> [no] </S2> [to] chemicals </S9>
<S2> but <NAME S8> sees a little [a small risk] </S2>
<S8> [(xx) different] yeah because there is a [possibility] <S2> [mhm] yeah </S2> every time </S8>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<BS7> yeah i [think that the] </BS7>
<S8> [i understand] these questions <S2> [yes] </S2> [like] is there a risk [available around] </S8>
<BS7> [risk yeah] [the risk is the the only thing that they have] </BS7>
<S2> [that that's what i yeah yeah that's right yeah] yeah yeah </S2>
<S6> and er i was thinking about the every company (big industries) they produces waste gases which contains really harmful chemical substance like <S2> mhm </S2> sulphur dioxide gas <S2> mhm </S2> er and others harmful chemicals and dust particles but they have the good system all these er harmful chemicals they produce inside the er let's say er they have such type of system so that these these er harmful chemicals er at least not escape out and i have seen and er i am seeing every day in that mills er like gases comes out from the chimney <S2> mhm </S2> but and i asked but it was it is not gases <S2> mhm </S2> and it is just steam so steam steam is not <S2> [yeah] </S2> [harmful] so if it is er gases they should contain <S2> mhm </S2> several harmful particles and other gases er so i don't think there is so much er harmful things or chem- let's say chemicals and other dust particle which make harm to (xx) the peoples workers of the company to the other <S2> yeah </S2> other peoples er who live around <S2> yeah </S2> that company </S6>
<S2> have you been on the market square <FOREIGN> keskustori </FOREIGN> sometimes when the steam comes from <S6> [yeah] </S6> [the] @from that chimney@ you you you ha- [then you have to believe that it's only] </S2>
<S6> [(xx) not carbon monoxide yeah yes] </S6>
<S2> water [@and@ yeah yeah] </S2>
<S9> [yeah it's a steam based (xx)] that is what i thought maybe that this will be a smog <S2> @mhm@ </S2> which is harmful as he said [but it's just a steam] <S2> [yeah yeah] yeah </S2> so their system as they have s- explained they said <S2> [yeah] </S2> [it is] a closed system <S2> yeah </S2> whereby all this s- er smoke or the gases as you've said sulphur dioxide er poisonous gases they are confined in the system <S2> yeah yeah </S2> yeah so i think it is safe <S2> yeah [good] </S2> [the] chemical risks are very minimal <S2> yeah </S2> yeah </S9>
<S2> and of course it has to be because it's just in downtown i mean so of course it has to be very protected and safe but but it sometimes it's hard to believe @@ </S2>
<S4> it's also quite interesting that such kind of factory it's in a very city centre <S2> yeah </S2> so it's just [in the main street] </S4>
<S6> [yeah that was a strange] <S2> yeah </S2> @strange thing@ </S6>
<S2> yeah you don't see i think you don't see them so often in finland anymore just in the small villages yes but not this er as big city as as tampere is so it's it's quite unique but then [so] </S2>
<BS7> [when] when sorry when we were inside inside the er machine room er at some point we passed there some toxic er <S2> [yes] </S2> [er] kind of smell <S2> [oh] </S2> [that] i i perceived i [don't know if] </BS7>
<S6> [yeah it's the] i think it's due to more heat [and also (xx)] </S6>
<BS7> [so (xx)] <S2> okay [yeah] </S2> [the] risk there </BS7>
<S2> yeah okay so we a risk it's a little ri- er risk but not so <SS> [mhm] </SS> [much] i think we agree on that yeah then the physical physical risk factors you mentioned at least noise , [is] </S2>
<S4> [and] temperature of course </S4>
<S2> yeah yeah how how high was it it was warm there </S2>
<S8> it [was heatness] </S8>
<S4> [it was hot] </S4>
<S8> like [a sauna] </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [like a sauna yeah] </SU>
<S2> [heat @okay okay@] li- like in like home @or@ no </S2>
<S6> yeah i saw all of these physical factors which are mentioned here noise vibration temperature radiation all of them are quite much there because er i was thinking people they were around in the machine they are directly operating the machines <S2> yeah </S2> but i saw er all of the most of the people they operate er from the computer <S2> mhm-hm mhm </S2> and the computer er (xx) it is not risky but it is risky because it does produce some radiation like say <S2> yeah </S2> gamma rays er and alpha particles beta particles and these are really harmful because they can easily pass through the flesh er of human bodies and er that can cause cancers like blood cancer and other similar types of chronic disease and s- i saw most er one of the great problem over there is noise problem because if er er a noise er let's say 20 hertz less than 20 hertz and greater than 20,000 er hertz kilohertz <S2> mhm </S2> these two type of sounds cannot er listen let's say one is ultrasound <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] the other is infrasound and these two types of sound cannot be heard but the sound of er sound of frequency between 20 hertz to 20,000 kilohertz that can be listened but er i think the noise produced by that machine is er quite near about the 20,000 kilohertz <S2> yeah </S2> and er sometimes when a machine it does not work or it sometimes when machine er produces more sound <S2> mhm </S2> er due to some defects then it will be it easily cross 20,000 kilohertz <S2> yeah </S2> er frequency of sound then if it cross that much sound then nobody listen because their ear er drum will [damage] <S2> [@@] did did </S2> so it is a er i think it is a risk factor <S2> [yes] </S2> [i think] it it doesn't er it er it has not happened at there but is well a kind of risk maybe it can happen <S2> yeah </S2> not only that factory maybe in other factories also er like a (xx) <S2> [yes] </S2> [and] @other@ other type of factories i think noise er is the greatest problem among the physical <S2> yeah </S2> risk factors </S6>
<S2> how how <S6> [(xx)] </S6> [high in decibel] was it you know we have some erm some restrictions that it shouldn't er extend 85 decibel you said in <S6> [yeah] </S6> [kilohertz] and so but i think decibel is more [known] </S2>
<S6> [yeah] that's yeah unit of sound <S2> yeah </S2> 85 decibel sound and that's er er quite good <S2> mhm </S2> it can easily heard <S2> yeah </S2> it can easily listen and er normally when we speak er we can speak almost around sou- we can produce the sound of <S2> mhm </S2> er er greater than 75 <S2> yeah </S2> decibel <S2> yeah </S2> because audible and er most er er very low sound that can listen is 65 decibel <S2> mhm </S2> and 85 is good </S6>
<S2> yeah [but it's it's a limit also i- in at least in finland] </S2>
<S6> [er the er yeah there is a limit] </S6>
<S2> it shouldn't er if it's more than that you should be protected </S2>
<S6> yes and er i think greater than 120 decibel that's very harmful </S6>
<S2> yeah , d- d- did they have any ear what do you what do you call these muff [muffs or] </S2>
<S8> [earmuffs] </S8>
<S2> yeah [did they use them] </S2>
<S6> [yeah yeah they] have they use <S2> yeah </S2> they are using and er they have such type of systems they are er avoiding , themself </S6>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<BS7> but the the vibration the vibration also er is high </BS7>
<S2> wh- what kind of vibration did you </S2>
<BS7> due to the machine </BS7>
<SU-9> the [machine] </SU-9>
<S2> [okay] yeah yeah but did er just the yeah so it it gives them the noise or <BS7> [yes er] </BS7> [or wh- wh-] why d- why does it is it harmful for for the workers then the vibration they don't touch the machines or </S2>
<S6> is it really vibration produce that sound <S2> yeah </S2> when machine vibrate then it vibrate the ear particles <S2> yeah </S2> and ear particle when they vibrate then it produce loud sound </S6>
<S2> yes yes yes good </S2>
<S10> but the vibration doesn't affect them </S10>
<S2> the doesn't affect [the people no it (doesn't) mhm mhm yeah] </S2>
<S10> [yeah yeah well the vibration will case in the machine] and er these people are far from they don't <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [come to] the machine </S10>
<S1> how about er those truck drivers </S1>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S8> they have and they didn't didn't have so good driving position either [because they were driving all like this all the time] </S8>
<SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS>
<S2> [yeah yeah] </S2>
<S10> and i think there there's vibration they are driving and their their machine is electrically connected <S2> yes </S2> sometimes and the noise is not <S2> yeah </S2> all that great but the real noise is from the heavy [machines] </S10>
<S2> [yeah] yeah and it's all over then </S2>
<S10> all over [the work place] </S10>
<S2> [yeah mhm] that's that sounds yeah i i think this is a right that's a a problem of course yes </S2>
<S10> mhm yes as for vibration </S10>
<S9> then how how will we account for this radiation <S2> yeah the </S2> this [radiation] </S9>
<S8> [(from the)] computer </S8>
<S9> may be the only source i mean the alpha radiation may be i don't know whether it's harmful or not but i think it was there ex- they're using <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [computer these operators] maybe some would er they have a little exposure to radiation <S2> yeah </S2> well it's not so much i think </S9>
<S2> no </S2>
<S1> er but mhm there was radiation because quite near with those machines <S9> [mhm] </S9> [there] were some warnings radiation <S9> okay </S9> so <S2> yeah </S2> there is radiation </S1>
<S8> yeah <S9> mhm </S9> <FOREIGN> säteilyvaara </FOREIGN> <S2> yeah </S2> yes </S8>
<S2> yeah but that's good i think er </S2>
<S8> they didn't recognise it [because it it was in finnish @@] </S8>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S2> [yeah] yeah </S2>
<BSU-7> it's very hot </BSU-7>
<S6> every electronic er equipment that produce the electric and magnetic fields also they produce the er radiating particles er most harmful is gamma rays er even we t- we take our mobile every every day maybe <S2> mhm [mhm] </S2> [er] er with us that's also harmful because it also produce er magnetic (hazardous) electric lines of force which is very harmful er to our [(xx)] </S6>
<S8> [but it] but is it not proof <S10> <S6> [and it's] </S6> [yeah] </S10> [(that it could)] be a harmful </S8>
<S6> it is harmful i think i read one article before two years and er (xx) when you put it er in in front of the pocket like these here this pocket <S2> mhm </S2> then it straightly it directly effect to our heart because er blood is circulating <S2> [mhm] </S2> [more] er and blood (xx) by heart that's why it effect directly to the <S2> yeah </S2> heart so they mentioned there the proper position where to put the mobile phone but i don't remember exactly because i read that article before two years <S2> @mhm@ </S2> er and er i didn't er er try to know @<S2> [@yeah@] </S2> [more] about it@ </S6>
<S2> okay good so we agree that erm the physical risk factors are quite high still in in that paper mill and but then biological risk factors <NAME S10> said a little bit what what do you m- mean by that what kind of </S2>
<S10> i think er that one i shouldn't have put little bit i should have put none <S2> yeah okay </S2> yeah i think that is a mistake <S2> yeah so </S2> because i don't [see anything] </S10>
<S8> [but h-] [how the] </S8>
<S1> [but] how about the birds because there were warnings about the birds </S1>
<S8> yes </S8>
<BS7> the what </BS7>
<S10> oh [the birds] </S10>
<S1> [birds] </S1>
<S2> bi- birds <S1> [yes] </S1> [th-] inside <S1> yes </S1> okay yeah </S2>
<S10> there were warnings </S10>
<SS> yes @@ </SS>
<S2> but er [without flu or @@] </S2>
<S1> [and now i guess when] we have <S2> [yeah] </S2> [that] that influenza so [how long for that] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> er well i i i s- said a little bit because you know it's it's er scientifically deb- debatable to say that er there is none absolutely no b- biological risk factors in that er industry [there might there might not be] </S5>
<S8> [but how about that er] that er that part we were what was that steaming part we were did you see the [the floors] </S8>
<BS7> [the moulds] the moulds [yeah moulds] </BS7>
<S8> [yeah there were] [and we were wondering and we right there were something in the floor and we didn't know what it was what it was we were discussing about it] </S8>
<S5> [yeah so yeah so you can't you can't say that there is none <S2> okay yeah </S2> and then bacteria also you can't say it you can't unless we] [we we assess] </S5>
<S1> [maybe that was mould] </S1>
<BS7> yeah [he said moulds] </BS7>
<S5> [yeah exactly] </S5>
<S2> [but] but but if you if you compare it to other risk factors is it is it a is it a a potential risk factor [also oh yeah do you think so] </S2>
<SS> [yes (xx)] </SS>
<S8> if you need to go between the machines <S2> yeah </S2> you are passing those mould <BS7> [yeah] </BS7> [er] <S2> okay good </S2> parts </S8>
<BS7> and you er you take this on your shoe to somewhere and somebody new </BS7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S10> [so you can even say that eventually there is some (xx) risk factor] </S10>
<S8> [that man who was having a lunch his shoes were there were some mould] </S8>
<S2> @okay@ </S2>
<BS7> yeah but we this those ones we could see there with our eyes there we may not see but <S8> [yeah] </S8> [there] we saw the moulds on [because mould is here] <S2> [mhm mhm] mhm okay </S2> so we saw the moulds on the floor </BS7>
<S10> we saw [mould] </S10>
<BS7> [yes] yes </BS7>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<SU> er good </SU>
<S6> but the <S9> [there is] </S9> [paper] paper industry er they use the biological materials <S2> yeah </S2> as the raw materials <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and er that's why there can er there can be bacteria and virus but the er viru- virus and bacteria that cannot exist er in very low temperature and er at a very high temperature <S2> mhm </S2> so at the at the mild temperature they can exist but er i think there is high temperature er during processing [of] <S2> [mhm] mhm </S2> er machines i think there are not there exist so much er bacteria and virus <S2> mhm </S2> maybe in the inlet <S2> yeah </S2> that kind of <S2> [yeah yes] </S2> [that kind of effect] can be seen </S6>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S10> but (perhaps) the moulds they are same <S2> yeah </S2> as for the moulds i didn't see @@ </S10>
<S2> @no@ [okay] </S2>
<S9> [but this] this really this incidence of biological i mean biological risk factors could be seen everywhere maybe </S9>
<S2> mhm </S2>
<S10> even <S9> [yeah] </S9> [in the] classroom here </S10>
<S2> @yes@ </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> [yeah because that is why] that is why it is it is it is not right to say that there is none [or probably none] </S5>
<S2> [no okay but] [maybe maybe we er maybe] </S2>
<S10> [yeah if for that level then we agree] </S10>
<S2> this none is n- i mean (xx) said none or just a little bit or <S9> [@okay@] </S9> [so i mean] @because@ you are right if i say none [@yeah i know@ that that's not true yeah] </S2>
<S4> [@yeah@ but (compared to other) exposure so] it it might be none </S4>
<S2> still but if you if you <S8> [mhm] </S8> [compare] it to other risk factors but it could i i think (xx) you said er it's reasonable it could be but it is a small small </S2>
<S4> [yeah because (xx)] </S4>
<S2> [thing it's it's not a big] risk factor [yes] </S2>
<S9> [it's] small </S9>
<S2> but good i think that good that you find these er possibilities at least i think it's very good so i think it's between @none and a little bit in this scale@ okay then if we go further on the physical workload and erm if i remember right <NAME S10> said that most strain come from the sitting by the computer , of course those who are sitting there but <S10> yes </S10> there are other people also but you put here that that's a a little bit a reasonable strain </S2>
<S10> yeah at least <S2> yeah </S2> the computer is like this they are like this so they they check (like this) <SS> @@ </SS> so there is some strain <S2> yeah </S2> they i suppose have corrected <S2> [mhm] </S2> [the] technical manager </S10>
<S2> mhm-hm </S2>
<S8> they didn't have ergonomic er si- er sitting situation [and position at all] </S8>
<S10> [no they didn't have any] [ergonomics] </S10>
<S2> [not at all] </S2>
<BS7> the mouse [the keyboard] </BS7>
<S8> [not at all] </S8>
<SS> @@ (xx) </SS>
<S2> so you could correct them @yeah@ </S2>
<S9> yeah it was really [bad] </S9>
<BS7> [(xx)] information </BS7>
<S10> really we could [@correct@] </S10>
<S8> [they really were like @@] </S8>
<S9> [maybe they will visit the @occupational@] at <S2> [okay] </S2> [least] you then you have knowledge @you know@ </S9>
<S2> we go back to that later on @this in this session (xx) yeah@ but good but but any other than sitting behind a computer <NAME S8> was mentioned something about the truck drivers <S8> yes </S8> or the fork-lift [drivers yeah] </S2>
<S8> [yes fork-lift yeah] because er they were sitting er in in in a twist er situation <S2> yeah </S2> and their neck were like their their their head were </S8>
<S1> rotated </S1>
<S8> forehead yes all the time and er and then there were those person who were carrying those er what are those i don't know what is it in english er </S8>
<S10> [the the (pulp)] </S10>
<S8> [yes those (boxes)] </S8>
<BS7> [i think everybody everybody in that] in that er (building) you have a kind of strain <S2> uh-huh </S2> because er they are always concentrated in their work <S2> mhm-hm </S2> the computer er operator is always watching so there may be some strain </BS7>
<S2> phy- physical [also yeah] </S2>
<S10> [yes straining] </S10>
<BS7> and and the and the driver is always <S2> [yeah yeah yes yes yes] </S2> [moving until he retires from work] (that day) so i think each of them will have a kind of strain </BS7>
<S2> but it's reasonable it's not very high [then or] </S2>
<S9> [no it's] a yeah little bit i think is <S2> [mhm] </S2> [the] good rating [er scale] </S9>
<S10> [an average] strain <S2> yeah yeah </S2> yeah </S10>
<BS7> but er for me i put er very much <S2> yeah </S2> <S9> [yeah] </S9> [er] when i consider the the computer operators <S2> okay </S2> because they're always there for for for seven hours <S2> yeah </S2> and they they are watching </BS7>
<S2> so so you think it's more er phy- it's a physical physical workload then mostly </S2>
<S10> no but i [think that] </S10>
<S2> [we have] also a mental workload here how how did you find it's [more physical or mental] </S2>
<S10> [oh okay okay okay] </S10>
<S6> [yeah it's mental] </S6>
<S2> then if you if you watch the screen or or or </S2>
<S8> i think [they're equal] </S8>
<BS7> [you see] </BS7>
<S2> [doing comput-] they they are not computing they are not writing [anything so] </S2>
<S8> [no] </S8>
<S10> [no] they are not writing anything </S10>
<BS7> like he said er the neck you know [you have to] <S2> [okay] @yes@ </S2> watch </BS7>
<S10> everything is programmed <S2> okay </S2> so <S4> [yeah but the] </S4> [you see] the arrows on it depending upon the <S2> yeah </S2> process that the work is going <S2> yeah </S2> so you have to (monitor) these arrows <S2> [yeah] </S2> [or] this mouse <S2> yeah </S2> er so that er you can detect quick and <S2> [uh-huh] </S2> [er] call in the maintenance team <S2> [yeah] </S2> [or] if you yourself you can do it you go there fast so the strain is there </S10>
<S2> okay <S10> [yeah] </S10> [so your] is it more erm w- w- if you compare it to phy- physiological physi- physical workload then or mental workload well how do you if you if you compare them </S2>
<S10> yeah i think their work is both mental and physical </S10>
<S2> yeah and the physical is coming from most from the sitting posture or then er <S10> yeah yeah yeah </S10> doing er the mouse work or </S2>
<S8> i think <S10> [yeah yeah] </S10> [poor work] posture </S8>
<S10> i think er the physical may be rationed to go and <S2> [yeah] </S2> [say] something or to <S2> yeah </S2> inform the maintenance unit to come [and] </S10>
<S2> [yeah] then then it's <S10> yeah </S10> could be a quite [much physical workload then] </S2>
<S10> [yeah yeah] [but not s-] </S10>
<S8> [and the <SIC> lightning </SIC> wasn't so good] either sorry i'm interrupting <SS> @@ </SS> go on </S8>
<S10> yeah so actually you know the strain is there as for the strain <S2> yeah </S2> the work strain is there because if in at any stage especially the finishing point <S2> yeah </S2> the one who er takes the papers you know there are some things he needs to [press] <S2> [mhm] mhm </S2> to s- ensure the flow of the papers [being cut to accurate size] <S2> [mhm mhm] mhm </S2> so i think his monitor are lit like this <S2> mhm </S2> so it it can change <S2> yes yes </S2> so if it's about to change he has to <S2> yeah yeah </S2> intervene quick <S2> yeah </S2> before they can get the right sizes so i see a lot of er <S2> yeah </S2> er problems there [that he] </S10>
<S2> [but but] that's isn't isn't that more then a er mental [workload and i mean because they] </S2>
<S10> [yeah mental work is involved yes] </S10>
<S2> i i think they have quite high responsibility <S10> [yes] </S10> [also] and they have to watch the screen and see <S10> yes </S10> carefully that if if something happened they have to to do something very <S10> yes </S10> very fast </S2>
<S4> yeah the <BS7> [i think] </BS7> [point that] they don't know when something will [happen so] </S4>
<S2> [no that's] true </S2>
<BS7> i think both of them mental and physical are <S2> [yeah] </S2> [on] the same level <S2> yeah </S2> because </BS7>
<S2> i- if you compare what what what do you think should could be higher then physical or mental in that case or it's just a </S2>
<S5> i i think that it's more mental than physical <S2> yeah </S2> because mo- most of the i don't know physical is not so there's not so much apart from the <S2> mhm-hm </S2> the postures <S2> yes [yeah yes] </S2> [poor postures and] things like that and the machine is doing a lot of things and <S2> yeah </S2> you know so </S5>
<BS7> [because their pos-] </BS7>
<S2> [yeah i think if you compare] to other other professions other tasks and so on so i think i think you you're right there then </S2>
<S5> but if you compare this to construction or <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [something like that] there is absolutely [nothing] </S5>
<S10> @[i think] construction is the highest <SS> @@ </SS> physical work@ but er <S2> yeah </S2> i can say that it takes balance <S2> [okay yeah yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [when you see the fork-lift driver] he has to turn [before he drive back] <S2> [yeah yeah] yeah yeah </S2> you see [and] </S10>
<S5> [that's] why the design of dimension is no good at all <SS> @@ </SS> i don't <S10> [@so actually@] </S10> [know why] you know it's it's not a good design because [er they do drive like this] </S5>
<S10> [but i hope even they lift something] <S2> yes </S2> er did the man say something that the the pulp when it's finished about the whole company have they have to stop and come and lift it </S10>
<S5> yeah [yeah yeah] </S5>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S8> but they have those machines </S8>
<S10> and they can even get them back <SS> @@ </SS> but that thing is (huge) <S2> mhm-hm </S2> a very (huge) mountain like that and the whole people [have to gather around before they can] <S2> [mhm mhm mhm] mhm </S2> move it out </S10>
<BS7> maybe that is not the design of the machine that is h- the way the driver chooses to to do it </BS7>
<S5> no they designed the finish line the sideway like this the [the the the lift is on the other side] </S5>
<S6> [i think that that was not (xx)] i think this that guy is [@so (xx)@] </S6>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S5> i was i was it was strange to me </S5>
<S10> but i <S5> [why] </S5> [think] er they should l- really look about that place <S2> yeah </S2> where they have to gather <S2> [yes yes yes] </S2> [and lift that] (huge) thing <S2> yeah yeah </S2> i think the technical manager said that all of them <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [have to come around] before they can lift that thing <S2> [@mhm@ mhm mhm-hm] </S2> [i don't know how heavy it is but er] gathering around all like that you can break your (waist) </S10>
<S2> yeah okay good but i think er it's a good discussion because it's it's er sometimes difficult to to see what kind of workload they have of course if they're sitting there behind the screen and watch the the screen it seems to be quite low physical workload but it could be because of the working postures <S10> yeah </S10> reasonable and then then also if they have to go to the machine and do something it could be big loads there which could be quite high then also but as i see it i think it's mental workload if you have this is not a good scale i mean three categories so if you have a li- er a better scale i i think it it could be more mental workload then at least er if you if you if you compare to the physical workload </S2>
<BS7> that is if if physical work is is er classified as lifting or <S2> yeah yeah </S2> but er when you when you sit at a place <S2> yeah </S2> it's also workload on the body </BS7>
<S2> yes that's true that's er [very good that how how you define the physical workload yeah] </S2>
<S10> [yes it is not easy to define that yes] it's not easy [when you sit for some time at one point] </S10>
<S2> [yeah that's er yeah] that that's that's [right] </S2>
<S8> [and] some someone of them were standing all the time w- beside the [machines] </S8>
<S10> [yes] <S2> yeah </S2> they can get strain on their <S2> yeah </S2> thighs legs </S10>
<S2> yes okay good so i think we agree that there's some both the physical and mental workload but not not so very high then but <S10> [yes] </S10> [there are] you you can see it and feel it @yes@ then about the accidents </S2>
<BS7> sorry <S2> yeah </S2> the human relationships <S2> mhm </S2> the human relationships for mental workload the the human relationships <S2> yeah </S2> i think it's er it's poor </BS7>
<S2> uh-huh why </S2>
<BS7> because everybody's on his own <S2> yes [yes] </S2> [and] then because of the noise you may not have er <S2> yeah </S2> the concentration to speak or listen to someone </BS7>
<S2> yeah that's [that's] </S2>
<BS7> [and] you have things in your your ear so i think er human relationship there is [it is poor] </BS7>
<S2> [so you] they have to work quite much alone then </S2>
<S8> only those er they were w- working as a couple <S2> yeah </S2> as a pair so that er those pai- two men who were sitting in the one control room they were always working in pairs </S8>
<BS7> yeah but [still er] </BS7>
<S8> [but but the others] were working alone </S8>
<BS7> you you when they are in that control room <S2> mhm-hm </S2> it's also difficult to sit and discuss because <S2> [yeah] </S2> [you're] always er </BS7>
<S8> yeah [they concentrate] </S8>
<BS7> [concentrating] so you speak while you concentrate [and that may not really be] <S2> [yes yes] yes </S2> a very good communication system </BS7>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S4> yeah that's yeah </S4>
<S10> but i do not understand why the human relationship should be there </S10>
<S2> er you don't understand </S2>
<S10> yeah or are you talking about coordination how they <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [coordinate in the] workplace , [well definitely they coordi-] </S10>
<S2> [did the] </S2>
<BS7> [(xx) (fully)] functioning work community <S2> [yeah] </S2> [there] should be er kind of a coordination (xx) <S2> yeah </S2> (xx) interaction </BS7>
<S2> yes </S2>
<S10> but i think there is </S10>
<BS7> that [depends] </BS7>
<S2> [ho-] </S2>
<S8> [(xx)] </S8>
<S9> this <S2> [ho-] </S2> [is] hard to assess because we are referring to these operators only but <S2> [yeah] </S2> [we] don't know the situation the communication between these operators and the outside workers <S2> mhm </S2> yeah </S9>
<S10> because i know <S9> [so] </S9> [definitely] there is a link between let's say the B and B one and then the finishing point you know there may be a li- there should be a link <S2> [yeah] </S2> [in such] a big industry </S10>
<BS7> no they are talking about human relationships of the workers how they [in-] </BS7>
<S10> [just] go there and have fun or what i don't [@understand@] </S10>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<BS7> [no no no no] </BS7>
<S2> you shouldn't have fun on [@on your job@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S10> er yeah </S10>
<S8> (xx) should enjoy work </S8>
<S10> yeah but well it's serious unless there is a problem that there should be a link this is what i see </S10>
<S2> yeah but but i think i understand what you mean that they are working quite alone and can't discuss with their colleagues and that's that's another thing then if you have to tell let's say somebody that it's something wrong in the beginning of the machine <S10> yes </S10> or in the end of the machine and have contact with the other people then and that may be they don't er they don't shout or <S10> [no no no] </S10> [i think they do] another they i don't know how they do it </S2>
<S10> they have [(telephones) yeah] </S10>
<S2> [telephones or] </S2>
<S8> [they call with a phone] </S8>
<S10> they should have telephones there </S10>
<S9> exactly but in [(xx)] </S9>
<BS7> [well i think] er the work environment is not only that you go to work [and you're working] </BS7>
<S2> [no no there there should] </S2>
<S10> [i think that is (xx)] </S10>
<BS7> you should have some social er aspect they eat on the they eat while they are watching too <S2> yes [yes] </S2> [so] there should be </BS7>
<S8> they didn't [have any breaks] </S8>
<BS7> [there should be] a well functioning community where you [also] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> not only talk of er your the your work but also you ask <S2> [yeah] </S2> [your] friends how they do and the whatever </BS7>
<S8> so they didn't have a typical coffee break as as most of er <S2> [yeah] </S2> [working] places [have] </S8>
<BS7> [no] they are eating on the machine </BS7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S10> [yeah yeah] you see in such big companies and er factories you know the break is regulated by the workload <S2> mhm </S2> sometimes the supervisor will leave the time <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [for you] to decide when to go to break <S2> yes </S2> depending upon the [production] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> processes [and the progress] <S2> [yeah yeah] yeah </S2> so you may have less work <S2> yeah </S2> and then you can go to break and even <S2> [yeah] </S2> [sit] for less than an hour <S2> yeah </S2> and you may have busy day and you are supposed to bring your food stand there while [you take your coffee you go through it] <S2> [mhm mhm mhm] mhm </S2> you take coffee you go around you go through it so it depend upon the layout of the [factory] <S2> [yes] yes </S2> s- system </S10>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<BS7> we we [also asked them if you can have a] </BS7>
<S10> [inside busy days you can't really ta-] </S10>
<BS7> er sauna breaks for workers <S2> [@yeah@] </S2> [you know because] we know that in some finnish companies they have er workers' sauna <S2> yeah </S2> a k- kind of country home <S2> yes but [but] </S2> [they] said they said they don't have [sauna] </BS7>
<S10> [no] they have sauna </S10>
<S8> yeah they have yeah [they are using sauna e- after every (xx)] </S8>
<BS7> [i mean sauna sauna break days] </BS7>
<S4> [they are working in sauna] </S4>
<SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS>
<S10> a sauna break but they said during the day you can go for sauna and (xx) </S10>
<S2> i don't think [@so many@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> [no no no] </S3>
<S8> [no when you're finishing] when <S3> [yeah] </S3> [you're] finishing your your working shift <S3> [yeah yeah] </S3> [you can go to sauna] and and and i i asked about that and and he said that no it's not including <S3> [yeah] </S3> [to] to your working time <S10> yeah </S10> but in practice <S2> mhm [mhm] </S2> [you] can go during er working hours because there need to be a continue -nuity <S10> yeah </S10> between those <S2> [yeah] </S2> [shifts] and er if somebody comes earlier or later so you can use it [flexible] </S8>
<S10> [yeah] he said in principles they are not allowed to <S2> [no no] </S2> [go to] sauna but <S2> mhm </S2> they [they themself they can do it] </S10>
<S8> [but they do it anyway] </S8>
<S2> [@okay@ good] </S2>
<S3> [maybe @@] </S3>
<S10> yeah so </S10>
<S8> @he told@ </S8>
<S2> okay but then again acci- er or are there any let's say dangers for accidents there i i think they are a little bit at least because of the you just er said that it could be quite slippery for example and big machines and so on so <S10> yes </S10> is it's really i'll er just i don't know maybe not so high anymore than for 20 30 years ago but [there's still risks] </S2>
<S9> [yeah but this this] has been reported for the two years 2004 <S2> yeah </S2> and [2005] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> the incidents er rates of <S2> [yeah] </S2> [death] since have been reported by the [manager the occupational health manager] <S2> [yes yes yes] yeah </S2> in 2004 there were 38 accidents <S2> yes yes </S2> and 2005 there were 27 accidents </S9>
<S2> yes so there's [still there mhm-hm yeah] </S2>
<S9> [(xx) some of these yeah yeah] </S9>
<S8> but they didn't have no severe accidents in five years <S2> no </S2> <S9> mhm </S9> but there is the risk available all [the time] <S2> [yeah] yes yes </S2> and they are trying to avoid them </S8>
<S2> but this </S2>
<S1> somebody can for example lose er his hand or something like that so it's <S2> [but] </S2> [quite] typical in in paper industry </S1>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S2> but it seems to be er under quite good control so there are a risk but it's it's they they cope with that okay good i think this was a good discussion can we go on then er discuss a little bit what kind of occupational health service , do they have at the paper mill there d- co- could anybody of you tell w- what <NAME S9> what what kind of <S9> [yeah] </S9> [service] do they have </S2>
<S9> ac- er according to this according to the manager the occupational health manager erm er he said that in fact they are being very much successful er in giving the on work er on the new job training especially the safety er wo- worker safety when they come i mean they have been very successful in doing that there they offer training for their workers and <S2> yeah </S2> regarding the that training they offer and and er and at least they say that that is why the reason there have been a decrease in the er the number of accidents as for instance when you compare 2004 and 2007 i meant five there's a reduction in the number of er accidents and this is their their objective is is to have have in fact zero accident <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [in the future so that is] their target <S2> yeah </S2> so in terms of training i hope they are really doing their [best] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> mhm </S9>
<S2> did you meet any any personnel from the occupational health service there </S2>
<S9> [mhm] </S9>
<S8> [no there] were only the hannu pursio who was a manager <S9> [(mhm)] </S9> [of] workplace health promotion <SS> yeah yeah </SS> and then there were er er the other one was technical service manager matti viitala </S8>
<S2> yeah where do they go if they have want to visit the </S2>
<S8> they buy it from outside <S2> okay </S2> no it was in the occupational health er <S9> mhm </S9> i don't remember <BS7> [yeah yeah yeah] </BS7> [we didn't ask] that </S8>
<S10> we [didn't ask the] </S10>
<S3> [she didn't] [she didn't mention] </S3>
<S8> [she didn't mention] didn't mention </S8>
<S2> okay </S2>
<BS7> yeah but erm erm he said the the work ability model they have is not the the medical he said the medical is old-fashioned <S2> yes </S2> so they have integrated <S2> yeah </S2> system <S2> yeah </S2> whereby they try as much as possible to prevent <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [accidents] so they offer the preventive er <S2> [yeah] </S2> [more] preventive measures so that each year they organise er er </BS7>
<S9> interventions yeah </S9>
<BS7> yeah intervention <S2> yeah </S2> a kind of , to to to highlight to the workers what's needs to be done <S2> mhm yeah [here] </S2> [so] they have ev- evaluation process to really know <S2> [yeah] </S2> [what] is a risk factor <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] try to remove it </BS7>
<S2> yeah they have been very successful during er 10 15 years at that that company yeah in all i i know that but then but er so they buy the occupational health service from outside then the i think you they have at least earlier they had their own company doctor and and nurses also but it may have changed now i i'm not sure sure </S2>
<S8> he didn't [mention anything] </S8>
<S1> [he didn't mention] </S1>
<S2> okay no yeah it's a [but it's] </S2>
<S8> [he told] a lot about those work ability <S1> [yeah] </S1> [models] and [those er (xx) @so yeah@ because they] </S8>
<S2> [yeah i know because they are yeah i know @i know why@ yes yes yes but that's good that] that's a modern it's very modern way to to do it so it's it's very good that you that he [discussed that with you] </S2>
<S8> [their system might might u-] er universal as as the pursio said @@ </S8>
<S2> yeah but the it's er it it's an u- global company also so they have the same model they use it in many parts of the world so it's it's it's yes it's at least a little bit tru- @true@ </S2>
<S8> yes (i can see that) </S8>
<S2> yeah but er yeah , so so you didn't er learn anything about what kind of er diseases or occupational work-related diseases they may have there or what kind of disorders [you didn't mention] </S2>
<BS7> [they didn't have they don't have (xx)] </BS7>
<S9> [we yeah they (xx)] </S9>
<S10> [they said they have zero no they have zero] </S10>
<S8> yeah zero but they have some burns <S4> [@so@] </S4> [and] heats accidents and er [that's all] </S8>
<S2> [sorry] @now it's your turn yeah <NAME S4> @ </S2>
<S4> well they don't have any occupational diseases now but <S2> no </S2> they said that er before that they had problems with b- because of noise </S4>
<S2> yeah , but not anything er [special then] </S2>
<S4> [yeah nothing] [special] </S4>
<S9> [yeah] </S9>
<S2> muscular skeletal disorders [or] </S2>
<S9> [mhm] <S1> no </S1> they [said] </S9>
<S2> [okay] so it's just the normal <S9> yeah </S9> ones [okay] </S2>
<S9> [they] said there are no occupational disease <S1> mhm </S1> this occupational <S2> [no] </S2> [health] manager </S9>
<S2> but of course they have occupational related [disorders and so on] <S10> [dis- mhm] yeah </S10> i mean a occupational diseases in finland er you have to prove it very <S5> [mhm] </S5> [carefully] so it's it's not so easy to get (xx) as one <S10> yeah </S10> [but that's very good that they don't have] </S2>
<BS7> [well i asked the managers] <S10> mhm </S10> what they have is mainly injuries </BS7>
<S2> injuries [yeah] </S2>
<S10> [which] is accident (xx) <S2> yeah </S2> accident but from the manager <S2> yeah </S2> he said no occupational health disease <S2> no </S2> but for occupational health accidents <S2> yeah </S2> they have [some] </S10>
<S2> [yeah] okay good so yeah </S2>
<S5> o- one thing that i the intervention er accident and maybe i didn't get make quite clear but i was actually as you mean erm we graduate here and you you become the consultant of a company you are supposed to organise occupational health for them on what basis do you organise the intervention in their case for instance they said they organise it every one year <S2> mhm </S2> so do you i- is is is the the duration or the the the time span dependent on the risk factors at the place or [(xx)] </S5>
<S2> [no er] no er er as you if you you listened to jukka uitti he was telling about the occupational health service in finland and we have a strict law also how you what's er what you have to do also but then of course it's er it's quite big competition in the occupational health service nowadays so they can change the service if if they like <S5> mhm </S5> compete er competition between the and er i don't know how often they do this at er that company but er but er but er they follow very carefully statistics and so on what happened so and and to to do some preventional work there so but er , but er in the law we have that you should provide at least a minimum of occupational health service but then something also could be above that so some companies have more than other but there's a level what you have to do according to the law </S2>
<S5> now i know what er <COUGH> i- if if you are you you want to advise erm a company like er er er commerce industry on oc- occupational health how do you convince them that it's it's good for them </S5>
<S2> er o- one thing of course in finland you can say you have to do @it@ according to the law <S5> [the law yeah yeah] </S5> [but that's not of course] but then the other thing i think many people count er everything in money and if you say then that you loss lose er according to the accident you lost two weeks of work or one month of work and so on due to sickness absence and so on you can calculate it very carefully into money and that that's then then people understand it much more of course it's it's not it's er it's not so much it's er it's more er business-like but i think i- they do it nowadays and you you can you can you can say that that if you are away from work one or two or three weeks it cost the company this and that money and that's if you then say that if you do that we know that according to studies it's it's a good way to intervene and do the preventional things many time they believe it then so it's it's er i think in that way you have to do it in in the on the way of business way then i think that's the </S2>
<S10> and i think er the [manager] </S10>
<S2> [best] thing @nowadays at least@ </S2>
<S10> er the manager said they have five year term plan to </S10>
<S8> five to 10 [years] </S8>
<S2> [yeah] [yeah] </S2>
<S10> [five] to 10 years <S2> [yeah] </S2> [term] plan to combat accidents <S2> yeah </S2> so er (xx) wait till that five years before <S2> mhm-hm [mhm <COUGH> yeah] </S2> [they will review or see the progress] of it <S2> yeah </S2> and then they say yeah every year for within the five years every year <S2> [mhm-hm mhm] </S2> [they try to] assess how they are going <S2> [yeah] </S2> [in that] case accidents in the workplace so that is what we talked about about [accidents] </S10>
<S2> [yeah] okay good i think er i think this was a good discussion and i hope you learned something also from the visit there it was not so long but er [i think it] </S2>
<S8> [it was really] interesting </S8>
<S2> it it's good and interesting to go if but it's not so easy to go just if you're walking on the street i want to go to that mill at their workplace and see er it's so you can't do that so but but you should do at least [sometimes] </S2>
<SS> [yeah] yeah </SS>
<BS7> do that do they allow you </BS7>
<S2> @no@ </S2>
<S8> [no it's not] </S8>
<S2> [you can] try but it's not <SS> [@@] </SS> [@that easy@] you you can try yeah say </S2>
<BS7> @yeah@ [maybe it's not very easy to get (xx)] </BS7>
<S2> [but but that that's why mhm] people don't know about other workplaces so much because it's not allowed to go there of course you can see the people who are working er doing maintenance maintenance work on the street and so on building something you see <BS7> [yeah yeah] </BS7> [what they are] doing but not inside so </S2>
<S6> you can go in the in [the @library@] </S6>
<S2> [o- @@] </S2>
<S9> we always we had the misconception that what we saw from these er chimneys the smoke <S2> [yes] </S2> [and we] thought that perhaps it's a harmful thing but <S2> [@yeah@] </S2> [it was just] it was just the mere [@@ mere steam we we so this goes to it's really going to be air] </S9>
<S2> [@@ yeah yeah yeah i think it] it's very har- hard to believe for many citizens in @tampere <S9> [yeah] </S9> [that]@ it's just steam but you had to believe it [yes] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<BS7> from outside the company doesn't look attractive but when you go inside this <S2> no no </S2> [there is a big company] </BS7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> no no okay , w- shall we have a short break or shall we go on with the institute of occupational health wha- do you you want to have a break i don't know how we may not be here until 12 o'clock but but er shall we go take the institute of occupational health and then see if you have a small break and </S2>
<S4> yeah we can [(xx)] </S4>
<S9> [that's] [okay] </S9>
<S8> [we also] we need some lunch break [be- before] </S8>
<S2> [mhm wha- bu-] </S2>
<S8> ba- before seminars we should have a break </S8>
<S2> yeah yeah [what w- yes yes] </S2>
<S3> [of course @@] </S3>
<S2> yes yes @of course@ , do you mean that we should work ergonomically @<SS> [@@] </SS> [yeah i i don't think so that's] that's for other people not for us@ no okay i- i- if we take the finnish institute of occupational health i think it we can take it a little bit er , more briefly but er could er for example <NAME S5> could you tell us a little bit what kind of institute it it is what what did you learn about the institute , [just briefly] </S2>
<S5> [yeah] , yeah we went there and er , about er nine 47 we started our tour , a little delay er we had to wait for er some few of our friends . maybe one interesting thing which i didn't write here was the erm </S5>
<S2> do you want to have this or is [it the same] </S2>
<S5> [okay] was erm this er video that we watched on on the (xx) , erm work (safety) or some occupational health and safety and it was quite interesting er watching that and see how people perceive occupational health and safety you know er we we were briefed that about 600 permanent workers are there and we have about 200 er am i saying the right thing </S5>
<S9> yeah <S8> yeah </S8> yeah [600] </S9>
<S5> [yeah about] 200 er project workers <S2> yeah </S2> and then we have the sex distribution is about 50-50 </S5>
<S4> yeah but er this who who was saying he wasn't sure he couldn't found the exact [data] </S4>
<S5> [yeah] it's about that's why i said </S5>
<S8> [he tried to s- er] </S8>
<S5> [i said about] 50-50 and the </S5>
<S8> watch those figures but he couldn't find them from that book </S8>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<BS7> the 600 and 200 is also i- in the whole finland not <S6> yeah </S6> therefore not truly here </BS7>
<S5> is it </S5>
<BS7> there's 600 and 200 (xx) in finland </BS7>
<S6> i think (xx) [60 (per cent)] </S6>
<S5> [okay yeah] yeah okay </S5>
<S10> [(160 160) <BS7> 60 yeah </BS7> oh] </S10>
<S8> [and and that rauno hanhela he was working er only three] months </S8>
<S2> [yeah i know i know that] </S2>
<S8> [in this position] so he <SU-10> [(xx)] </SU-10> [was quite] (uncertain) </S8>
<S2> okay </S2>
<S5> yeah but there it was interesting the range of professionals that professions that they have over there ranging from nurses physicians er safety engineers environmentalists psychologists economists and er ph- ph- physiotherapists it it was very interesting to know that all this range of erm professions are are found over there and then working hours er he mentioned that they have about erm seven hours 15 minutes for each working day and this is er a little bit strictly adhered to 'cause you can't just come to work and and just have your (xx) and things like that and erm . basically these are the things that </S5>
<S2> the if you if you just tell a little bit </S2>
<S5> he he never i mean he said there was no er occupational disease and (xx) </S5>
<S2> but to just to generally say then w- wh- what is the institute what's the aim f- wh- what are they doing there is it a institute for research or ed- education or what </S2>
<S10> it's a research institute </S10>
<S5> erm i think they they do research and then they promote occupational safety and well-being <S2> mhm </S2> and then they he mentioned that they are about the mhm promoting occupational safety and [well-being] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> and then they have some projects sometimes they have projects they have to carry out and they also do er occu- er workplace survey <S2> mhm [mhm] </S2> [and] assess and research <S2> [yeah] </S2> [things] like that and that was clearly evident when we went to the laboratory because we saw <S2> yeah </S2> some of those things that they've <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [assessed and things] like that </S5>
<S8> those basic functions were research expert services training and dissemination of information </S8>
<S2> yeah yeah yeah so it's the [biggest] </S2>
<S8> [(xx)] those peop- people are doing there </S8>
<S2> institute in occupational health er er biggest and onl- @one and only yes@ because the other parts who are doing with er occupational health and safety are small groups for example like here at the our department or or other universities was this is the big institute yeah yes and there are similar institutes in in the other nordic countries also and and in many other part of the western world , this kind of institute yes </S2>
<S10> and then er their source of fund how they get money to run <S2> [yeah] </S2> [the institute] er they say 60 per cent of their fund is from government <S2> yeah </S2> and 40 per cent is from their activities with [firms and companies] <S2> [mhm mhm mhm] yeah </S2> and they are not all that er some sort of er a profit making organisation even though they get profits <S2> yes [yes] </S2> [from the] activities the profit is not their priority <S2> yeah no </S2> they engage in service at lower costs <S2> yeah </S2> because if they charge high perhaps the government may <S2> mhm-hm </S2> not be happy with them <S2> mhm </S2> because they get some fund from the government so when they give service to companies they don't charge as high as they ought to do <S2> yeah yeah </S2> but companies give them 40 per cent of their source of <S2> yeah </S2> money </S10>
<S2> yeah that's that's [good] </S2>
<S5> [i i] was i i i think somebody asked the question and that i was a little bit erm worried about that issue and i asked where then then how do they advertise i asked a question about advertisement because i was i was thinking that it was wholly f- founded by funded by the the government <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [and] the government provide <S2> [mhm] </S2> [everything] but they had to erm do other things to er meet part of their budget then i was looking at how they could er perform their statutory functions as as er a government and for for the government and at the same time trying to balance their <S2> yeah </S2> budget and er he he explained that they are they they they don't really they are not so much interested in like business-oriented <S2> no </S2> but they they have certain basic requirement that they want to meet and and then he mentioned their values as effectiveness and reliability and partnership <S2> mhm </S2> erm i think it is a good thing but er i was thinking such such a very important organisation should be wholly funded by the government </S5>
<S2> yeah but the do you know that this in finland it's more and more so that it's just partly bu- paid by the government for example this university now or for example this er school of public health we have an for the moment we have a an external money which cover more than 60 per cent now so it's more than half of the budget so it's a minority coming from the from from the from from the government and that it has it has went so during the last 10 15 years and that's very typical from finland nowadays and i i i can't say if it's @good or bad@ but but that's that's very typi- typical so you have to earn money from outside for example our money for research is com- coming to 80 90 per cent from outside </S2>
<S9> mhm not from the government </S9>
<S2> no <S9> yeah </S9> so we have 130 people working at the school of public health about 130 34 35 are not working here they are working in other part of the of finland but but erm just 40 45 between 40 and 45 people are is paid by the government so that that's that's the that's your life nowaday in @finland@ </S2>
<S5> yeah and their and their action programmes was talking about youth and work <S2> yeah </S2> they're looking at youth and work and and the some specific erm er work occupational <S2> yeah </S2> er concern like the wood indust- <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [industry] and and the work environment (xx) and then there are collaboration with other international <S2> [yeah] </S2> [organisations] like the EU and erm the WHO and then the ILO <S2> yeah </S2> and some other collaborations now and they they have and erm the international activities they also have he mentioned that they also have some international activities with s- some nor- nordic collaboration for ins- for example and then bilateral collaboration with italy japan and china and poland finland er france and other erm international or n- or neighbouring countries and then he mentioned about the international symposium and foreign visits <S2> yeah </S2> and they have this collaboration with (other people) then he went er to talk about the rule of the regions they have regions and the tampere region <S2> [yeah] </S2> [is] t- their rule and they've been working (xx) and some special field of er fields of specialisation safety management er they do safety management occupational health care and and er cooperation with er occupational health (self-administrative) bodies and training of safety personnel and i th- er i think that that is quite interesting to know about how comprehensive <S2> mhm </S2> this institute is <S2> yeah </S2> and it's very interesting and i was initially thinking it's just within finland and so they (xx) other things then how they say w- talking about er the work environment the occupational health and then work safety and then the work communities and organisation <S2> mhm </S2> all these things are reported to them . basically i think @these were@ the issues that we <S2> yeah </S2> er </S5>
<S2> did did he tell you anything about the new organisation they have a very new modern organisation now since the beginning of january <BS7> yeah </BS7> it's a little bit special </S2>
<S8> [yes] </S8>
<S5> [i think] he he did mention of of which he just became the director or [something] </S5>
<S2> [yes] yes yeah so it's it's just it's not earlier it was physically er six places and they are working together on the six places but now it's just one institute and er they ha- the t- there it's built they have teams working with different teams and er the member in the teams could be here in tampere helsinki oulu or in different part of of finland </S2>
<S9> in finland yeah [he mentioned those places different parts of finland] </S9>
<S2> [and that that's new yeah yeah mhm] and they just just started with that </S2>
<S9> mhm </S9>
<BS7> er he said they are independent from the ministry of health <SS> mhm </SS> er we're thinking that is er a kind of implication of of function <S2> mhm </S2> because if you if you look at research there are public health institutes in finland like <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] and they they (compete) of the o- er occupational health and they can also function as research institutes <S2> yeah </S2> and the , training also this institute of public health do that and dissemination of information <S2> yeah </S2> expert services are mostly offered by the ministry of health <S2> mhm </S2> so for this institute to be independent and (xx) carry out these functions that are found in other institutes and in the ministry of health is it not an implication of function and also er enlargement of projects from from the government if the government sponsors the ministry of health and takes care of the institute of public health </BS7>
<DISC CHANGE>
<S2> training and so on so [yes] </S2>
<S9> [i don't] i don't remember very well but someone someone mentioned about this that there's an <COUGH> there's a interlink they they like for instance in most of their research they er (they pay er they pay) the universities er the universities and then <S2> mhm </S2> like when it comes to now to the testing to the fieldwork they are more less involved i mean they are more involved then <S2> yeah </S2> yeah <S2> [yes] </S2> [so] i hope there's a maybe there is there is a interlink between these institution maybe some [of] </S9>
<S2> [they] there there it there there are <S9> [mhm] </S9> [of course] there have to be but </S2>
<S9> yeah like [for instance] </S9>
<S2> [but it] it's a discussion now er <S9> mhm </S9> should it be bigger institute and not so small institutes also yes </S2>
<S9> mhm </S9>
<S10> well what i think is sometimes the government will see the level of work at one <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [institute] like the finnish institute of er public health <S2> mhm </S2> the (xx) or something like that and you know there are a lot of activities <S2> mhm </S2> you know they have big responsibilities <S2> mhm </S2> and big research <S2> mhm </S2> on diseases on the trend of er hospital care and those type of things and those minor minor like occupational advisers and they s- sometimes when they see the workload <S2> yeah </S2> er increasing then they begin to you know <S2> mhm </S2> break themself to some <S2> mhm </S2> group for the specialisation <S2> mhm </S2> so that they can deal with the minor er details of health activities <S2> yes [yes] </S2> [so] they they give accident and <S2> [yeah yeah yeah yeah yes yes yeah yeah yeah yeah yes that's right] </S2> [occupational health activities to some special group you know to bring efficiency on the political level (xx) like that but there is] er maybe </S10>
<S2> yeah <BSU-7> mhm </BSU-7> that's good yeah okay sh- shall we shortly go through you di- did also the risk assessment for for this kind of work that er occu- the occupational institute of occupational health has , chemical risk factors you feel any <S9> yeah </S9> did you [saw any] </S2>
<S4> [there is] yeah it's [i wonder well] </S4>
<S9> [yeah i think] </S9>
<S4> it's possible in the laboratory </S4>
<S2> yeah so do you saw some laboratories there also </S2>
<SS> [yeah (xx)] </SS>
<S9> [yes yes they have a very nice lab yeah] </S9>
<S2> [okay yeah yeah] yeah so you find some there [@@] </S2>
<SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS>
<S4> [(xx) that it's really possible] </S4>
<S9> [exactly in fact i was i was excited to go and see] that is my previous @work@ [yeah so] </S9>
<S2> [@yeah@] okay so ju- er but but not the big ri- big risk factors i think yeah </S2>
<S9> yeah [that is really] </S9>
<S2> [it's not like] you know industrial so <BSU-7> no </BSU-7> <S9> mhm </S9> okay phy- phy- physical risk factors office laboratories </S2>
<S8> occasionally i think so none or a bit it's between [that] </S8>
<S2> [yeah] </S2>
<BS7> yeah and [(xx)] </BS7>
<S2> [but if if] you compare it then to the paper mill </S2>
<S8> well </S8>
<BS7> no [(xx)] </BS7>
<S10> [but] there is [each time] </S10>
<S2> [not too much] @i think@ </S2>
<S10> physical risk [there] </S10>
<S2> [no] [okay] </S2>
<S9> [yeah] but the [radiation] </S9>
<S6> [radiation] from the computer </S6>
<S9> yeah [(xx)] </S9>
<S2> [radiation] again <S10> mhm </S10> so you believe on that radiation from from the VDU units or </S2>
<S10> well it's [hard (xx)] </S10>
<BS7> [yes] </BS7>
<S5> [and in the] laboratory in <S2> [mhm laboratories okay] </S2> [laboratories (xx)] so much </S5>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S8> [and there were] </S8>
<S1> [and you have] to remember that they are visiting in other workplaces <SS> mhm-hm [yes] </SS> [also] and there there may be physical [or chemical] </S1>
<S5> [exposure] </S5>
<S9> [yeah] yeah </S9>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S1> exposure </S1>
<S2> but it's oc- occasionally then now and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [then] so it's </S2>
<S10> yes it's [occasionally] </S10>
<S2> [okay] good biological risk factors we don't n- n- now we don't take into account the the bird flu @no or something [like that]@ </S2>
<S4> [the bird flu] yeah </S4>
<BS7> when they bring this risk from outside <SS> @@ </SS> they it's a risk factor yeah i know that from outside <S2> uh-huh </S2> like er he mentioned the asbestos <SS> okay mhm-hm yeah </SS> when they analyse <S2> [yes yes that's true] </S2> [these er (xx)] then yeah i mean there's some <S2> [yeah] </S2> [there's] some risks [there] </BS7>
<S2> [there] could be a little bit yeah </S2>
<S9> yeah like [when] </S9>
<S8> [so it] depend how you inspect this issue there might be a bit or maybe [a lot] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> it depends what [what you're] </S8>
<BS7> [at least] <S8> yeah </S8> at least a [bit] </BS7>
<S8> [what] you're doing </S8>
<S2> yeah i think the main thing with this kind of checklist is more that if you feel that it it's a risk and it's er it you have to notice it you have to so tha- then you say it's yeah there are something but if it seems to be a just a small risk that you you can forget that but but in this kind of three i mean none or just a little very much it's just to make it visible so you have to compare of course to other other things also other other workplaces but the the erm they have in the lab labs and and of course when they do the (workplace) which it's it it could be yes <S9> [mhm] </S9> [so] small risk physical workload you saw m- people working on the in the offices or </S2>
<S4> yeah <S2> [mostly] </S2> [i don't] think that it's very important there because they have very good like this ergonomic [condition] </S4>
<S2> [did] they have </S2>
<S4> yeah well i had mentioned that all of them they have very comfortable chairs <S9> [@mhm@] </S9> [and] <S2> okay </S2> people you know are also well like you can like </S4>
<S8> lift [that] </S8>
<S4> [change] the this [(xx)] </S4>
<BS7> [yeah but they they don't have it here] </BS7>
<S8> [the lifting lifting system] </S8>
<S6> the er </S6>
<BS7> they don't have it in this in this place </BS7>
<S6> (xx) have them too </S6>
<BS7> no they don't </BS7>
<S5> it was just for exhibition </S5>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S4> [no no no it was also in that institute yeah in the small offices yeah] </S4>
<S3> [you in the office you mean in that office where they work yeah] you you looked <S4> [yeah] </S4> [in the] offices okay @@ </S3>
<S2> okay but <S5> [but] </S5> [that's] that's good if if they er if that was </S2>
<S4> i think it's not [like] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> a serious problem [there] </S4>
<S2> [no no] </S2>
<S9> but even this video show us and the exhibition [it was not in the yeah] </S9>
<BS7> [yeah] </BS7>
<S5> [yeah yeah it's] true <S9> yeah </S9> it's true </S5>
<S9> so if you expect radiation from the office then you'll @you'll be (xx)@ </S9>
<S10> but wasn't he talking about the the laboratory <SS> mhm </SS> radiation in the laboratory </S10>
<S9> yeah okay [if if] </S9>
<BS7> [from the] computers </BS7>
<S10> in the laboratory </S10>
<BS7> yes yeah they had computers in the laboratory </BS7>
<S10> yeah okay </S10>
<S2> okay so i think some normal physical <S4> mhm </S4> small workload sitting behind the computers or doing maybe in the laboratory some work but it shouldn't be too [high risk] </S2>
<S9> [yeah but] i expect because these people have been in the consul- consultation work which they have to [go to workplaces and] <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] yeah </S2> well definitely these like la- laboratory technicians <S2> [yes yes] </S2> [when they are] taking their measurements hopefully they encounter some physical i mean <S2> [yes] </S2> [yeah] yeah physical strain [yeah] </S9>
<S2> [yeah] i mean that's that's possible </S2>
<S3> sometimes they have er poor postures <S9> mhm yeah </S9> in the workplaces <S9> exactly </S9> where they visit when they are doing measurements <SS> mhm yeah </SS> yeah </S3>
<S2> okay then the mental workload it's sometimes difficult to asses that of course but er what kind of feeling did you get from that or you can maybe <SIC> imanage </SIC> imagine how what it is then in [that kind of place so] </S2>
<S9> [yeah er the i hope] there is because like in the lab these people they are working in the on the machines <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] they have to interpret some <S2> yeah </S2> er s- i mean things like they take slides like samples in the slides and they have to check these samples on the microscope <S2> mhm </S2> er other samples are to be checked in the very sophisticated machines <S2> mhm-hm mhm </S2> like mass spectrometer <S2> mhm mhm </S2> so i hope they are it's too demanding er it's er there there is i think they usually <S2> yeah </S2> work [(xx)] </S9>
<BS7> [for me i think] also there is a (xx) because er because like er the paper mill which requires a very high level of concentration <S2> yes </S2> to be able to give <S2> [yeah] </S2> [the] exact er interpretation of what you have taken <S2> yeah </S2> so when you look at the microscope <S2> [yeah] </S2> [you] try to make sure it is exact <S2> yes </S2> so you try to avoid every disruption <S9> mhm </S9> [from outside] </BS7>
<S2> [yeah that] that's true </S2>
<S9> mhm </S9>
<S4> also other thing erm they're making researches there so they also have to <S2> yeah </S2> to get to to have very good knowledge <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [and also to] to work with their brains </S4>
<S2> yeah but er i can m- i think it's it's like here or anybody else in the or who do office work and research work and so on it shouldn't be any special but in the lab it could be yes <S9> [yeah yeah] </S9> [i mean] it could be </S2>
<S5> i don't know but i indicated that very high because </S5>
<S4> yeah [me too] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [okay why] tell me </S2>
<S5> because because of the the lab work <S2> [okay] </S2> [which is] yeah <S2> [yes] </S2> [because it's] sometimes you you you measure something and you you have some expected result <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] it is not available and you want to <S2> [yeah] </S2> [check] and you want to <S2> [yeah] </S2> [cross-check] and you are not sure whether it's the machine or whatever because some- sometimes you have er li- like you're saying maybe have an equation <S9> mhm </S9> you put this value there you put that value there and you're [expecting a product] <SS> [mhm] yes </SS> from from one machine and (xx) a product <S2> yeah </S2> so you ha- all the time have to check the line whether <S9> mhm </S9> <S2> [yeah yes yes] </S2> [it is this from this machine or] from this measurement or whatever [so i believe there's going to be so much mental workload yeah because of the lab work] </S5>
<S9> [yeah then i you can (xx) yeah from the lab lab (xx) the same (xx)] it needs a very [careful attention yeah mhm mhm you have to yes] </S9>
<S5> [mhm you must get it er caref- yeah yeah (if you have) that] <S2> yeah </S2> confirms your result <S2> [yes] </S2> [and] things everything must match </S5>
<S2> that's good </S2>
<BS7> but er to that extent to i think er there's so many so much technology that has been brought to make business [easier] <S2> [mhm] mhm </S2> so even if you are calculating an equation you don't use much of your brain you just put the numbers on the computer and it gives you (xx) but where where i think er the the workload may be is er when you use things like a microscope <S2> [mhm] <S9> [yeah] </S9> </S2> or you use the computer to [read how (xx)] </BS7>
<S2> [mhm mhm] </S2>
<S9> [yeah you might yeah yeah there's this mass spectrometer] </S9>
<S2> yeah yeah </S2>
<BS7> i mean using those equipment that are more manual [than] </BS7>
<S9> [yeah] </S9>
<S2> [yeah] yeah yeah but that's that's [true] </S2>
<BS7> [(xx)] very (xx) i <S2> [good] </S2> [think] yeah </BS7>
<S10> well human re- because of that because of the concentrations they put in their work er the human relationships may also be like er </S10>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [@that's true@] </S8>
<S2> [@okay@] </S2>
<S10> in the paper mill but er i think the the human relationship may be better than the paper mill because there is no noise </S10>
<S2> @yeah@ [@yeah@ yeah you can talk with people] </S2>
<S10> [that make you] [to be stressful] </S10>
<BS7> [yeah but the con-] the concentration i was looking at the two ladies there (xx) we left they didn't [(xx)] </BS7>
<S5> [they didn't even (xx)] </S5>
<SS> [(xx) @@] </SS>
<BS7> so <S2> okay </S2> so i think so </BS7>
<S2> okay then just do they have any danger for accidents at this kind of place or d- do </S2>
<S9> [yeah if i if] </S9>
<S8> [only when they are] visiting those er different places <S2> yeah </S2> enterprises <S2> yeah </S2> they might have [car accidents or or] </S8>
<S2> [(xx) yeah i know it's true] </S2>
<S8> things like that <SS> yeah </SS> or accident in the factories or <S2> [mhm] </S2> [something] might happen there </S8>
<S2> but not so much in the their office <SS> no </SS> i i [suppose] <S9> [yeah] yeah </S9> good </S2>
<S5> h- here again i indicated very high because </S5>
<S2> oh very high </S2>
<S5> yes because the workplaces you are going to visit you don't know the situation there <S2> yeah </S2> so the risk is is very high <S2> yeah yeah </S2> because it's it's your first visit and so you get there then you <S2> [yeah] </S2> [know] oh this is </S5>
<S2> but they have [trained for that they are trained for that] </S2>
<S5> [how i'm going to do this] yeah so that is at least the risk is there you only have to <S2> [yeah alright yeah] </S2> [take precaution the risk] if you are exposed to that <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [risk so] i think it's very high </S5>
<S2> yeah but er but i think it's not as high if if you go you're not haven't been to different kind of workplaces [you're not trained for that then it's then it's] </S2>
<S5> [(xx) yeah then it's going to be] </S5>
<S2> very high but <BSU-7> mhm </BSU-7> i think it is a bit lower now because they they know where they are going <S5> okay </S5> but good good just shortly then about w- where do they buy their occupational health service service i mean this kind of @place@ institute of occupational health </S2>
<S10> [outside] </S10>
<BS7> [they said] from outside <S2> yeah </S2> they said they buy from [outside] </BS7>
<S2> [yeah yeah] </S2>
<S10> [outside] yeah </S10>
<S2> that's true so they don't of course they don't take care of themself </S2>
<S5> i was thinking they would take care of themselves but </S5>
<S2> @@ yeah that's good but [no no] </S2>
<S5> [disappointed when he said] they don't </S5>
<S6> we don't really believe @that@ </S6>
<S2> okay i i suggest that we sh- if we have a short break five or ten minutes and then go through the the last i- is it okay </S2>
<S10> yeah </S10>
<S2> is it five minutes or </S2>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S8> five minutes </S8>
<S2> f- five past 11 just to stretch your led- legs yes a little bit ergonomics but not too much </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<FIVE MINUTE BREAK, TRACK CHANGE>
<S8> it's honour to be a a s- er finnish swedish (xx) say no i'm just finnish [i think so yeah] </S8>
<S2> [@oh@ i think it's no i don't] think it's a </S2>
<S8> i think it's good </S8>
<S9> but you are are you part- er the finnish people patrilineal or matrilineal do you follow the father's mhm father's side in especially naming or mother's side we have patrilineal society and matrilineal <S2> er </S2> but if it is matrilineal the mother's side is powerful we we (xx) they they have authority of of (things) like giving names and </S9>
<SU-6> having [(xx)] </SU-6>
<S9> [what] what is what is the finnish position in that </S9>
<S2> a position </S2>
<S9> [are you g-] </S9>
<S2> [not so] easy to ask in finland to to to to to <S9> yeah okay </S9> to answer that i i i'm it i i think it depends <S8> it did [e-] </S8> [on] on </S2>
<S8> it was [earlier] </S8>
<S2> [on families] and so i'd nowadays <S9> [okay] </S9> [it's] it's </S2>
<S8> nowadays it's changed <S2> yeah </S2> <S9> @mhm@ </S9> it depends on well you which one you choose </S8>
<S9> okay [@@] </S9>
<S2> [yeah] yeah mu- much more than earlier @mhm@ i'm a [little bit t-] </S2>
<S8> [it used to be] patriarchic </S8>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S9> yeah (xx) in my country there's a big difference some other tribes are patrilineal <S2> [uh-huh yeah] </S2> [the father's] side is very dominant in [everything] <S2> [yeah] yeah </S2> like my own tribe <S2> yeah [yeah] </S2> [but] in others it's <S2> yeah </S2> mother's side it's powerful <S2> yeah yeah </S2> they give the @names and everything@ </S9>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<P:07>
<S2> okay if we go on with the , to the last visit to the occupational safety and health exhibition , if just to take a short the gen- in general what kind of place it was er could you <NAME S4> tell us a little bit just briefly what was the exhibition and then we go on more to the to the ergonomic workplace check-ups and but just to repeat what what you saw i have been there @earlier@ </S2>
<S4> well there was exhibition about like ergonomic like things <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] the it's the only one exhibition in all the finland <S2> yes yes </S2> and well i was quite surprised because it looks like er firms are supporting this exhibition like for example the tables are are like bought or given from firms <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and of course well then they're just showing what firm er er well gave this <S2> yeah </S2> and well but it was very interesting because er all these things were very modern and it was very interesting to see what could be like very very modern like er very good ergonom- ergonomic things like wi- with these chairs and with tables also with that er security guard's this how this </S4>
<S8> vest </S8>
<S4> yeah and well i was actually a bit surprised that it was like only without any m- metal there to to protect from bullets <S2> yeah </S2> and also like there there are most dangerous these professions like er in traffic in because in hotels restaurants and also in medicine a- and for these er occupational diseases and well it was very interesting to see how like in medicine <S2> mhm </S2> a- and taking care of er the patients it could be supported from with this er kind of modern equipment <S2> yeah </S2> , erm well i don't know what to say [this was] </S4>
<S2> [who who's] paying for that er exhibition and or who </S2>
<S4> well i think er these private firms are supporting them and then it's paid by like institute or no </S4>
<S2> i think er [the] </S2>
<S10> [by] government </S10>
<S4> by government </S4>
<S2> social </S2>
<S8> social and <S2> [yeah] </S2> [health] ministry </S8>
<S4> yeah </S4>
<S2> which is in the same building <SS> [mhm yeah] </SS> [there yes] yeah but it it's an u- unique exhibition yes so it's er (xx) it's the only one in finland yes </S2>
<S4> also i think that at the same time when the all the things are so modern so yeah of course it would be very good if the private er companies could could <S2> mhm </S2> allow allow for themselves to to make such kind of working conditions but also it's very expensive like these tables which were just </S4>
<S8> [1800 euros] </S8>
<S4> [very adaptable] <S2> mhm </S2> automatically so it was [1700] </S4>
<S8> [eight] 800 </S8>
<S4> 800 <S2> yeah okay </S2> yeah or something so it was thought like very very expensive </S4>
<S2> yes yes yes yes . okay yeah . okay then er </S2>
<S8> that was quite interesting to hear that the first law was 19 er 1889 <S4> mhm-hm </S4> you know that er that gentleman unto kärkkäinen told us or show show us some slides <S2> uh-huh </S2> powerpoint slides </S8>
<S2> wh- what kind of law was it then </S2>
<S8> that was like er to to i didn'tknow the name it for . he was telling telling about this exhibition [and] </S8>
<BS7> [occupational] safety </BS7>
<S9> safety [law yeah] </S9>
<S8> [the safety] the safety occupational he- er safety <S9> [law] </S9> [health] and safety <S9> [yeah yeah] </S9> [law was] it that yes <S2> yeah [okay] </S2> [the first] one <S2> yeah </S2> <P:05> and the exhibition is 100 years old <S2> yeah yeah </S2> and they ha- have er exhibition (xx) </S8>
<S2> not not the in the same place i suppose [@no@] </S2>
<S8> [no not er] first in helsinki <S2> [@yeah i know@] </S2> [and then] then in tampere </S8>
<S2> yeah , yeah okay , then er something about er what is a good good er workplace for doing doing computer work for example did you did you have possibility to also to sit and feel and and er do something there </S2>
<S5> in the chair </S5>
<S8> [yeah yeah] </S8>
<S2> [cha- chair yeah yeah] yeah </S2>
<BS7> we had the mouse some of them are too big for our hands </BS7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> [okay but] </S2>
<S10> [i think they] were too they were (too enormous) </S10>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S8> there were one chair where were eight different positions <SS> yes </SS> and they <NAME S3> told you know most of that chair that gentleman couldn't remember that much <S3> [mhm mhm] </S3> [@that you told@] that was really comfortable one <S2> yeah yeah </S2> and er we we sit on many of those [chairs] </S8>
<S5> [yeah] we sat before we we started the they were sitting @were enjoying them@ </S5>
<S2> okay w- w- what is then er if you briefly say wha- what is a good er working place for doing doing VDU work or sitting by a computer <NAME S8> do you want to continue just briefly ho- ho- what is a good working place for for computing work computer work </S2>
<S8> i think that the the table and the chair should be fixed in personal situ- positions <S2> mhm </S2> and you should have a good light <S2> mhm </S2> and er the environment should be peaceful and er the noise level should be mini- er maximum at 85 hertz and er when you it depends er which kind of work you are using or which kind of er mouses or <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [keyboards you are] using you can choose a different ones <S2> yeah </S2> and er and then the it depends how long you have to stay in the stable situation position <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and it depends which kind of chair you can choose <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and er] and if you have a er that that unto kärkkäinen told that er it's so it's a pe- personal question what is good for your health <S2> yeah </S2> er when you are using those tables and chairs there is no standard <S2> mhm </S2> for everyone </S8>
<S3> but he didn't er mention anything about the what is the right height </S3>
<S8> no [no] </S8>
<S3> [@and@] so on she didn't i think he didn't know anything about this </S3>
<S4> yeah but i think it's very personal </S4>
<S3> yes but there are some standards and so </S3>
<S8> how you can measure <S3> [mhm] </S3> [like er] if you have the saddle-chair it's like er you just have to keep your feet on on the floor and the height it it the chair should be quite high and er that's a good position for your for your legs and er and er for your back </S8>
<S3> and if you use saddle-chair you have to have er a table with er quite high <S8> yes </S8> er i- if if you use saddle-chair you can't choo- er </S3>
<S8> [choose this (xx) table] </S8>
<S3> [you can't use] a usual table </S3>
<S2> yeah </S2>
<S5> o- one big problem that i i had with the very nice erm t- tables and chairs over there is is their their suitability for the individual person <S2> yeah </S2> because which of them is suitable for whom and if it's a matter of try and test if it is okay for you <S2> mhm-hm </S2> for how long what of if <S2> [yeah] </S2> [it's] it turn out to be to have an adverse effect <S2> mhm mhm </S2> so i i yes i liked them they are nice they are adjustable and <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [(xx)] but i wish there is more research on as to er maybe some age you look at some age erm (when you're) buying some specific , what if i i i wish there's more research about which is good for which category of people and all that and things like that because if if you that that er round stool for instance that you fix it (xx) and when you stand and all that and things like that er so some of these things can have their their adverse effects <S2> yeah </S2> and i don't believe in trying it and see if it's okay for you then you use it what of if (xx) okay the harm might now been caused already so that is one thing i was not i didn't appreciate about especially the the chairs [over there that was er] </S5>
<S2> [t- that's why i think] that was <NAME S3> said we have guidelines and <S5> [mhm] </S5> [and] er so you can you can have at least this this almost the optimal <S5> [mhm mhm] </S5> [in general but then] after that you have of course to try a little bit that is is it good for you also yes </S2>
<BS7> yes for me it was really fascinating to to see those chairs and tables and (xx) there and er it also gives er acknowledgement to er for (designs) <S2> mhm-hm mhm </S2> to really try to see how comfortable <S2> mhm </S2> not just how comfortable it can be but how we can stay in development <S2> yeah </S2> in a healthy form <S2> yes </S2> and i think that is the really intention of trying to make different forms <S2> yeah </S2> er and i see that er they don't just make a form and put it there and produce it <S2> mhm </S2> they also go into (the effect) this may have on the health and er try to make some calculations <S2> yes </S2> to see how fitting and the the frictions and the effect they may if you sit on any chair what it may have on on you if you have any kind of mouse <S2> [yeah yes yes yeah] </S2> [the effect it has on your] on your body so one is that d- one of the chairs is very very adjustable <S2> yeah </S2> the adjustable on the neck <S2> mhm </S2> the hand <S2> mhm </S2> the side <S2> mhm </S2> so anybody can use it <S2> mhm </S2> you know no matter the age and the the condition you (xx) <S2> mhm </S2> it has about 360 degrees sitting positions <S2> mhm </S2> where you can see all around <S2> yeah yeah </S2> so i think er it is very very nice to see those kind of things and the tables are also adjustable <S2> yeah </S2> you can adjust it to how you feel is also comfortable <S2> yeah yeah </S2> all of their mouses is er is wireless <S2> yeah </S2> to prevent radiations from the computer so that you can sit about er 10 metres away from your computer and er still operate it and some of their mouses are also er wireless too these efforts are put in order to see how we can at least avoid some of this risk that may come from how you sit in the chair you use the computer you use and all that so for me er it's a very good effort (xx) but i still wonder how how many schools or companies can afford <S2> [yeah yeah this is true] </S2> [these because they are] too expensive so is mhm it shows that the effort is coming up but you cannot get them because if you if you get all the chairs to put here and then <S2> yeah </S2> (xx) we we'll finish [(xx)] </BS7>
<S2> [yeah] so i think the one key word you mentioned is that it should be some kind of adjustability in the in the in the equipment er or the the furniture that's the main thing but of course er that's not in general that's not true because er mostly it's like this that you have although you're big or small you have to use this kind of <BS7> mhm </BS7> chairs and er er and tables but but yeah </S2>
<S5> i i want to play the devil's er advocate er i i'll i share the same er view with <NAME S5> that these things are really they are marvellous innovations in the in the in the health sector and kudos to those companies that came out with these those things er but however i i think that the- there is something more that they have to do with the er er in terms of usability <S2> mhm </S2> because these erm er furniture are are not labelled in the first place <S2> mhm </S2> now if if you went for this exhibition and you want to erm make arrangement how do you how do you tell the the manufacturer what to produce and the next thing is that sometimes erm the the the some of some of the things we saw were not w- we couldn't tell exactly what what what the (xx) do for instance we ha- we had this er this meter board that reads the illumination level of the room <S2> yeah </S2> but then so what is the maximum illumination we should have <S2> mhm </S2> at what time at at what and so i think that there should be some levels and some like we've seen some standards <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [those standards should be written that] this is good for health when we went to the place where we we had the sound at least i was happy because we were told that w- with this sound if you have er more than 85 <S2> mhm </S2> er decibels <S2> mhm </S2> it is not healthy for you <S2> yeah [yes] </S2> [but] then when we come to the that meter how how bright should a room be that it's okay for or what is not okay for you if you want this type of furniture in fact when we were there @@ my colleagues who bear me out sometime we were just trying to see what did you write at the name of for this chair and all that they don't have any specific labels for these chair these are adjustable so far these are adjustable arm and back and whatever i think deep down (over there) i think there is still room for mhm improvement so that <S2> [yes yes] </S2> [these things can be] effectively used </S5>
<S9> [yeah] </S9>
<S2> [but er] yeah </S2>
<S9> i had the same point of course and i wanted to pose that question @but@ at least they said some things but i hope really these equipments are very useful especially for the education purpose <S2> [mhm mhm mhm] </S2> [for giving education and knowledge] to er the novice people like we i've been there but <COUGH> really we had some problems there i think in my opinion they should at least er if it is a sitting style i mean th- those chairs they should do some sort of er er classification they classify that maybe they can even er draw some in the in the manilla card that like this style only is maybe a particular this style is useful <S2> mhm-hm </S2> in reducing the pain of the back or the neck <S2> mhm </S2> so for the beginners those <S2> [yeah yeah yeah] </S2> [people who don't have any idea about] the use of these things it would be much more easier <S2> yeah </S2> for them so to improve maybe the situation one would learn they'd train they have to classify these things and their <S2> [yeah] </S2> [uses] and this is useful this equipment is <S2> yeah </S2> this is how it can be used and it is useful in this in maybe reducing <S2> [yeah] </S2> [the] er pain in this part of the body so at least there has to be a little bit details so so that it it is easier [for us in so in future maybe] </S9>
<S2> [yeah i think you] think you that's a very important thing now it's er if you have good furniture most of us want also to have some ti- kind of training or guidance how to use it because it doesn't , i- if you if you can't use it <S9> [mhm mhm] </S9> [then it's er the] adjustability is is not @good@ <S9> yeah </S9> [i mean] </S2>
<S9> [so that was] the shortcoming of the visit we had <S2> [yeah] </S2> [today] yeah with that especially with that er i mean the the display of the <S2> yeah </S2> the equipments there <S2> yeah </S2> not all not all the places but like <NAME S10> said also in the er in the (xx) and also <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [the they cla-] they clarified even in the lifting part of course it was very good but you had the problem really in the equipment like er <S2> mhm-hm </S2> mouse and the use of <S2> [yeah yeah yes] </S2> [mouse and the chairs yeah] mhm </S9>
<BS7> i <S2> [alright] </S2> [think] this this change may come with the manuals of those equipment <S2> [yeah yeah yes] <S9> [mhm] </S9> [yeah] </S2> [the the manuals that come when you buy] i think there they will explain <S2> yeah </S2> what and what is this and that but the the problem i think was with the the exhibitor himself the one who was taking us around he he found it he had difficulty in er </BS7>
<S2> [mhm yes yes] </S2>
<S9> [explaining things] </S9>
<BS7> explaining it in english <S2> yes </S2> er though there was no display of what this this should be done but i believe it may be in the manual and they <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [can't display] the manuals every [everywhere] <S2> [no no] no </S2> so he knew what it was the man knew what it was but he he had difficulty [in] <S2> [mhm] mhm mhm </S2> giving the overview in [english] </BS7>
<S2> [yeah] [@yeah@] </S2>
<S9> [@yeah@] in many places of course not only in that place even in tako [we had the same thing] </S9>
<S2> [oh @yeah i i@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S9> @there was a communication barrier somewhere@ </S9>
<BS7> yeah </BS7>
<S8> but that was that was pity because the all the information in in this exhibition it were in finnish </S8>
<S2> er not not at [all in english yeah] </S2>
<S8> [they only got] these booklets <S2> okay yeah </S2> or these [brochures they were] </S8>
<S2> [yeah yeah that's why] </S2>
<S8> in english <S2> yes </S2> but everything was only in finnish </S8>
<S2> okay </S2>
<SU-5> interesting </SU-5>
<S8> too bad </S8>
<S5> and interesting i saw one er leaflet with the english caption facts and then when you just everything is in eng- er finnish <S2> [finnish @yeah@] </S2> [but the] the the caption alone was was was in english it was interesting </S5>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> @okay@ yeah </S2>
<S10> they just want to tell you the facts are there </S10>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> yeah facts it it was er numbers <SS> @@ </SS> okay but did you <NAME S3> want to add something about this er i mean this er ergonomics er [office erg- yeah yeah] </S2>
<S3> [no i i'm in the same opinion] that there are there lacks some things that he didn't tell [you] </S3>
<S2> [yeah] yeah but er i think it's er most important that that you can have some feeling about and and that you when you go back home or so you think a little bit of w- w- w where do i @sit@ and wh- where do i w- how do i do my work and so and i think that's the most important there try to start to think about that because you sit quite many hours </S2>
<SS> [yes] </SS>
<S3> [and af-] after some years you can you can er read my articles [more about this] </S3>
<SS> [oh (xx)] </SS>
<S2> [yeah her doctoral thesis so after after so so yeah] </S2>
<S10> is it in english </S10>
<S3> yeah [yeah] </S3>
<S2> [yes] yes yes </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> er it's about school ergonomics i i think i showed you some pictures in my lectures <S9> [yes] </S9> [about] [the] <S10> [okay] good </S10> yes so that's <NAME S3> is doing that so </S2>
<SU-10> okay yeah yeah </SU-10>
<S9> a part of your PhD <S3> [yeah mhm] </S3> [study yeah] okay </S9>
<S3> the whole PhD study <S9> [oh] </S9> [is] is concerning ergonomics <S2> yeah </S2> and tables and chairs and so on </S3>
<S9> yeah hopefully you'll bring us some pictures that we can read @@ <S3> @@ </S3> @we can see@ </S9>
<S2> yeah yeah so er [in gen-] </S2>
<S9> [different] sitting styles </S9>
<S2> in general it's er it's er i mean the office ergonomics it's it's quite good good and good developed but but the school ergonomics that's quite bad in finland it's it doesn't nothing happened you have the old furniture a- although they buy new but er it's not too much adjustability in them so it's it's er and er and if you know that and you surely know that children are between 10 and 15 years of age they grow quite much and er you can see in the let's say a 13-year-old b- boy and girl in the s- in the same class they could have a half a metre difference in height and they are sitting in the same furniture , so that's one thing <NAME S3> want to solve now <SS> @@ </SS> yeah good i think we then take the re- the the last part and that was er the exhibition about er er the different er lift- lifting aids and so for for for hospital or not only for hospital use but how to how to to lift er patients from the from the bed or or or help patients to the bathroom and so on could you could you tell us something about that what did you saw and w- what's the let's say general good practice <SS> [@@] </SS> [oh you you are (xx) that or what] </S2>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S3> [you can you can tell your experiences] </S3>
<S2> [okay tell me also i something] </S2>
<S10> er okay [er] </S10>
<S3> [where] is the picture @photo@ </S3>
<S9> @oh yeah yeah@ </S9>
<SS> [(xx) @@] </SS>
<BS7> [you were lifted] </BS7>
<S10> [er i was used] as an example </S10>
<S2> okay so you were you he was the subject or patient <S10> [@yeah@] </S10> [then] yeah good </S2>
<S10> well actually there were different er er you know materials that they can use to make things comfortable <S2> [yeah] </S2> [to] patients <S2> yeah </S2> er then we have the bed how you can sit on the bed <S2> mhm </S2> so that there is er a linen covering the bed which is very slippery <S2> mhm-hm </S2> what like er if you turn like this it will <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [turn you that] way i don't need to <S2> [yeah i know yeah] </S2> [push your body] like that <S2> yeah </S2> er then er in front of the bed is some turning wheel <S2> mhm-hm </S2> when you just step on this and you wake up it can turn you to <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [whatever level] you want to face that's for the stroke people er so if you do this it will make you to face this way so that somebody can also come and then er take you and then there is something you have the belt <S2> yes yeah </S2> that they can put on your waist so that the nurse can take you with the belt up from the bed <S2> mhm-hm </S2> er and then there is one too that when you are lying on the bed they can er move you from the bed to a chair <S2> mhm-hm </S2> for you to let's say go to toilet or to go to bathroom <S2> mhm </S2> something like that <S2> yeah </S2> and then they will lift you back also as the one i took a <SS> [@@] </SS> [photograph and so] if you are very if you are like a stroke patient you can't do anything <S2> no </S2> yeah they will fix the belt on you <S2> [yeah] </S2> [and] then they will start adjusting the the system <S2> [mhm-hm mhm] </S2> [(xx) to lift you] place you into the chair nicely <S2> mhm </S2> and then they will take you to do whatever you want to do later bring you back and help you to lift you then put you onto the bed comfortably </S10>
<S2> yeah [@i see@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> but there was some risk factors @around your head@ </S3>
<S5> yeah (and er) </S5>
<S10> oh yeah risk factor yeah yeah </S10>
<S5> the metal </S5>
<S3> met- [metal yeah yeah @@] </S3>
<S9> [that's what they told hanging metals (xx)] </S9>
<S10> [oh yeah there was some metal yeah] </S10>
<S8> [(xx) can raise you up from the bed] </S8>
<S2> [er okay yeah i know and] </S2>
<S10> [yes er] and it can hit your head </S10>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> risk factors yes did you find them easy to use or how did you find them er were they [difficult] </S2>
<S10> [well] well they are easy to use </S10>
<S2> [you think yeah there's no] </S2>
<S10> [but at least they'll] show you how to use it and <S2> yeah yeah </S2> but yeah </S10>
<S8> [kind of (xx)] </S8>
<S2> [do you think er people at the] hospital use them </S2>
<S10> i don't think they use them <S2> mhm yeah </S2> perhap they don't have it </S10>
<S5> no they are not available </S5>
<S9> [yeah] </S9>
<S8> [they er] well they use those douche er those shower shower er chairs or beds <S2> mhm </S2> bath beds and they use these rolling <S10> [yeah] </S10> [carpets] <S2> yeah </S2> and they use those er er (xx) belts or how will you say these er these belts <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and er but not so much those er what is <FOREIGN> valjaat </FOREIGN> in english [er] </S8>
<S10> [lifts] </S10>
<S8> those lifting system er they don't use such [(xx)] </S8>
<BS7> [i think they are very] (xx) and very expensive </BS7>
<S2> mhm mhm </S2>
<S3> maybe in the in hospitals where are stroke patients [where are all stroke patients] </S3>
<S8> [then of course but in in] </S8>
<S3> maybe there <BS7> mhm </BS7> [they use them] </S3>
<S8> [yeah but in] typical wards </S8>
<S3> yeah because it's very loading your back that work </S3>
<S2> mhm-hm . so yeah so what's in in general what's important when you want to , to let's say handle patients manually or help patients manually wha- what's what's important then the lifting different kind of aids or or then then the technique or both </S2>
<S10> i think both both help the the nurse and then the patient <S2> yeah </S2> because where the patient is very weak <S2> yeah </S2> and cannot control himself or herself those systems are very useful <S2> mhm </S2> er at least can help to speed up things <S2> [yeah] </S2> [in] the hospital <S2> [yeah] </S2> [taking] you to the theatre or where or to the toilet you can do them quick than two people coming to carry <S2> yeah </S2> a patient who is a stroke patient <S2> yeah </S2> they can even fall down and the problem will be <S2> [yeah] </S2> [increased] so these things are very helpful </S10>
<S2> yeah , but it's er also quite a much of a of that <COUGH> also the to teach the the patient to do something i mean not only the worker him or herself i think it's quite much a- also to if it's not a patient who who is can't do anything but but otherwise it's it's i think it's quite much a combination also you have lifting aids you have to the worker has to know how to lift and handle but also to teach the patient and that's could be more used i think because er it's a good exercise also for those who of course not those who are who can't use their their body but but otherwise it's it's so it's at least three three different things you have to think about </S2>
<BS7> yes there are some of the books we used that are very critical about er , er medicine <S2> yeah </S2> that to an extent it's becoming too mechanical <S2> mhm mhm </S2> so i don't know how we we put these and they make reference to some of these equipment that are for (xx) <S2> yeah </S2> that er the patient <S2> mhm </S2> deals more with machines <S2> mhm </S2> than er more with persons <S2> mhm </S2> you are put in the lift the lift takes you and er so the human contact and relationship is getting away and er <S2> i know </S2> so i don't know so there is an ad- advancement <S2> mhm </S2> but the other side of it also we have to put it to consideration </BS7>
<S2> yes yes yeah that's true yeah okay but er it was just i think i hope you get some also from the exhibition some practical at least some hints to maybe you can teach other or use them yourselves sitting by the computer or or or otherwise </S2>
<S9> there is one thing i didn't <S2> yes </S2> i maybe you tell us more about what was the purpose for that er er the rendition for the video we watched because i saw like that person who was demonstrating some he was quite busy and like seems to be someone who is su- very much stressed and er doesn't he looks like he doesn't enjoy his work very much and and i think there's something of burnout was mentioned but the maybe in that kind of work he was just too busy and and his boss is calling him and want the report for the articles and whatever [i] </S9>
<S8> [(the one)] about mental well-being </S8>
<S9> yeah i think </S9>
<S2> w- was it in finnish or [no] </S2>
<S10> [well] it was in english </S10>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S9> [it was in english yeah] </S9>
<S8> in english but </S8>
<S2> @okay@ yeah </S2>
<BS7> it was talking about er er health services <S2> mhm yeah </S2> er this was a worker who the boss asked to he he was a journalist <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [to write] to write an article about heal- er occupational health services <S2> mhm mhm </S2> so he didn't know anything about that <S2> [mhm mhm] <S9> [@yeah@] </S9> </S2> so he started er to make contacts to see how he can write the article he was able to visit this market this K this K-market and er </BS7>
<S10> R R-kiosk </S10>
<BS7> to ask his friend and his friend his friend said he can use his his er his company <S2> mhm </S2> for like setting of that <S2> yes </S2> he was able to have a break through from there <S2> mhm </S2> and er started noting iss- things that can be risk to the working environment and er how the working environment should be the human relationship how <S2> mhm </S2> health issues are dealt with <S2> yeah </S2> so he looked at the psychological aspect of er er the working environment the physical and health so he visited (some) departments in the company and also n- er brought it back home to himself how his own working environment <S2> [yeah] </S2> [should] be like because he was stressed when he was <S2> yeah </S2> [given that er assignment] </BS7>
<S9> [yeah it was @@] the boss would always call him and and he c- couldn't accomplish <S2> yeah </S2> he didn't accomplish <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [his routine] the boss need needs the @report@ it was really very stressful <S2> yeah </S2> that kind of @@ </S9>
<S2> yeah i think this kind of <S9> yeah </S9> situation of discussing quite a lot now in finland this psychosocial <S9> yeah </S9> stress and problems [that's] </S2>
<S9> [mhm] so at last what they said it is er burno- burn- burnout </S9>
<S2> burnout [yeah mhm yeah] </S2>
<S9> [yeah it was recog-] diagnosed as a problem for that guy [@@ mhm] </S9>
<S2> [yes @@] okay good anything more any comments or about those three visits in general </S2>
<S9> there was a also a very interesting er in this exhibition there was a machine which killed a lot of people <SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS> [@in the past@ 40 peop- 40 people] (xx) <S2> really </S2> yeah </S9>
<SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS>
<S2> [okay yeah yeah yeah yes yeah] </S2>
<S6> [nowadays only two people are working (xx)] </S6>
<BS7> [the machine is arrested] </BS7>
<S9> @yeah@ it should be prosecuted @@ </S9>
<S2> okay </S2>
<S10> the machine is a criminal </S10>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S2> okay so i hope you learned something from this erm this er introduction to occupational health of the theoretical part and then also the practical part and integrated er them and and we see then 26th of fourth 26th of april no <S3> yeah <SS> [yeah (xx)] </SS> [yeah] </S3> [yeah yeah] you have @okay@ you have the examination then and it's er it's both questions couple of questions which you have to write er try to apply it apply the theory in practice and so on and then of course also some er normal er [questions sma- smaller question about the facts] </S2>
<S3> [smaller smaller questions don't] don't tell @more@ </S3>
<S2> no no about facts er so you have to of course to read the books also but but it's both both kind of questions then </S2>
<S9> so will you you said the first i mean the first book in the list will <S2> [yeah yeah] </S2> [it will be will be] important to read isn't it </S9>
<S2> fi- fi- fi- first er yeah yes of <S9> [the first book] </S9> [course that's] the main book but there's all all of them are included but er as i said the main book and the other one at least er ilmarinen the the the [last part] </S2>
<S9> [yeah] uh-huh [and] </S9>
<S2> [but] but all books are er included of course </S2>
<S9> okay [what] </S9>
<S6> [but first] two books er the first one i couldn't find it in the library </S6>
<S2> you couldn't [find] </S2>
<S6> [or] in the (xx) <S2> [but] </S2> [or] in the [book store] </S6>
<S2> [but you find] it in the internet i gave you the the </S2>
<BSU-7> but we don't [have (xx)] </BSU-7>
<S6> [there's nothing you @can do@] </S6>
<S9> [we don't have access] we don't [have access] </S9>
<S2> [you don't have a] you don't have [acce- access] </S2>
<S6> [no no i] i ca- i can do but it's not easy to @read@ </S6>
<S2> if yeah from the from the screen yeah yeah you yes yeah </S2>
<S9> one idea is to print it but then it's it'll be a lot [we'll finish our quota @@ if] </S9>
<S2> [yeah at lea- er] </S2>
<BS7> [maybe if they] if er c- they can copy it </BS7>
<S2> i i have no i don't think it's good to copy the whole book but </S2>
<BS7> that section </BS7>
<S2> mhm i have a er you mean the good occupational health <BS7> [yes] </BS7> [practice] <S9> yeah </S9> [er i ha-] </S2>
<S9> [there are] no i mean copies anymore in the you know [library] </S9>
<S2> [okay i have one] one at least one but er of course that's a book w- which would be good for you also to have later on just to to have a as a book in the @l-@ in in in your office for <S9> [okay yeah] </S9> [example so] i don't know h- how many pages there are in that </S2>
<S5> 194 or something <S2> [mhm] </S2> [one] about 194 </S5>
<S2> yeah and er if you </S2>
<S5> almost 200 </S5>
<S2> yeah i'm not so eager to @copy books@ because it's strictly <S9> [yeah okay] </S9> [@forbidden and that's why@] but but er but of course we do it yes </S2>
<S3> how many there is in in library </S3>
<S2> this is recorded now so you have to @skip that one@ <SS> @@ </SS> @no i think it's@ <S9> @yeah@ </S9> but erm yeah </S2>
<S3> how about you or others </S3>
<S2> nobody i know </S2>
<S3> nobody </S3>
<S5> i i have one </S5>
<BS7> i have </BS7>
<S5> i have that one but i don't have this one @(xx)@ </S5>
<S2> uh-huh i have a couple of these er one or two of these also so of course when you we can we can give you them and you can circulate the that that would be possible but i think if if i- made copies about the good occupational health practice because it's a good book to have already so it er it could be possible yeah <COUGH> and er yeah i may have er i may have printed out them from the internet also so it's shouldn't be any problem then to <S9> mhm </S9> put it in the machine i i will i'll see you after one o'clock </S2>
<S9> for master's </S9>
<S2> yeah so i i i'll tell you then i i try to do [something] </S2>
<S3> [what about] next </S3>
<S9> and the lecture material the lecture [notes is it also going to be there] </S9>
<S2> [the lecture yeah yeah yeah yes] </S2>
<S3> [of course of course] </S3>
<S2> everything [everything] </S2>
<S9> [okay] we have to read all </S9>
<S2> okay any more questions then we'll i'll see you quarter past one then <S5> okay </S5> i think it's the same room yes </S2>
