<TITLE: Competence, Qualification and Skills
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: behavioural sciences
DISCIPLINE: education
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD180
NOTES: seminar includes presentation USEMP090

RECORDING DURATION: 93 min 58 sec

RECORDING DATE: 20.10.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 15

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 8

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Latvian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Switzerland); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> our today's er er lecture is that i at first er w- we had er discussed er the erm erm the er concept of er competence which er weinert has described in the last session and i would suggest to to <SIC> presentate </SIC> to present <SIC> presentate </SIC> you you now what his er advices is how to handle with this er concept to can identify er key competences that's only a few minutes er then i would suggest that perhaps our er er students from belgium er <SIC> presentate </SIC> present their erm their er entrepreneur competence or </S1>
<S4> yeah , it's it's little bit general than than [speci- specified] </S4>
<S1> [okay that's mhm-hm] okay and then i can i don't know how much time we will have but then i can er show you er the discussion in germany , i also have got something with me about the discussion about key competences in , european and OECD countries but i don't think that we will have er time enough to discuss this but er that doesn't matter because therefore i have got er english texts wi- which i can er send you by er e-mail i would also do here er today at the end of the session that we will have around half an hour when you can ask all the questions regarding the learning portfolio regarding the er international (course of) lecture regarding the grades regarding erm everything er which will come after that so that we will have enough time to to clarify these questions , it's a little bit like in a tennis hall here @but it doesn't matter@ so at first er you you are all er you all er still remember yes the the eight er the no the seven er concepts of of competence okay so we don't have to repeat them so erm i will just show you , we we have discussed a- a- about er how you can tell me what the er concept or what you can make with this er concept , or what you can do with this concept , <SU> (xx) </SU> yeah i hope that you will get (xx) <P:10> er yes <SOMEONE BLOWS THEIR NOSE> @you are all ill or@ <SU-2> yep </SU-2> @@ . it was too cold since wednesday , okay er w- er why not just er at the end of this er i'll give you some advices how we can now er handle with this er concept and how we can yes what we can do with er concept of er competence you also have this already er i have sent you the erm er the presentation already i think everybody of you has reached the e-mail no er didn't you get er yesterday an e-mail from me </S1>
<NS7> no </NS7>
<SU> yeah </SU>
<NS7> i didn't i didn't [get it either] </NS7>
<S1> [then] no </S1>
<NS7> no </NS7>
<S1> then please er just write me an e-mail er . so that i will have to write , e-mail address <WRITING ON WHITEBOARD, P:19> <NAME S1> dot <NAME S1> with many many Es at uni minus DUE dot D-E . so then i ha- had the wrong e-mails okay , okay and then we just start , he says erm that for the concept wh- wh- wh- which you can er define key competences that this concept should refer to the necessary pr- prerequisites that er are av- available to an i- individual or a group of individuals to successful meeting complex demand that it is er complex enough , then the concept should er <SIC> compromise </SIC> cognitive as well as motivational ethical <SIC> politional </SIC> a- and or social component we have discussed this that not only er cognitive er competences will be enough to to (meet) their erm com- er comparison , then he s- said that the concept should imply er to a sufficient degree of complexity to re- er to require to meet demands and tasks we er we have spoken about this mo- er model of er er action competence which is such a mix er erm and and and to to to fix to this request their competence is something erm which you can sow er show in er complex situation er erm he said that erm this concept must also or should also er im- im- imply this er regard <P:07> and then he said that er learning processes are necessary conditions for the acquisition of prerequisites for successful me- er (<SIC> measury </SIC>) of complex demand , he also er sticks to the a- aspect of er erm of er leading or doing a successful life also individual as well as er society . whatever that means successful life what is successful for society and for individual , that are er normative er aspect which we can't er solve er by technical questions , so okay that's that's all , any remarks on that <P:05> you see that's all in all er very er similar to this er thing that we have er discussed already on last thursday so i always er i'm very happy if i'm in er courses and we are discussing about a problem and we find very similar aspects that are also @also (xx)@ but there are more inside the text i- i- i- if er if you will read the text until the end you will find erm er additionally remarks , okay . so , i would suggest that we are going now to the er yes to the competence model in er belgium , yeah (<NAME>) </S1>
<P:05>
<S4> er i'm not well prepared @@ </S4>
<S1> do you need any erm technique [or (xx)] </S1>
<S4> [i] don't have any technique </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [okay so good] but you will have the board if you would like to write down something [yourself maybe] </S1>
<S4> [erm] yeah maybe i i'll see </S4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> erm yeah so er </S4>

<PRESENTATION USEMP090 by S4>

<S1> thank you very much we are we like this in germany but i somebody told me that's only in germany that we are always doing this <EVERYBODY KNOCKING ON THE TABLES FOR APPLAUSE> @i don't know if you ever@ [@@] </S1>
<S4> [(i know in germany) (xx)] </S4>
<S1> but i was in an er interna- national er conference and everybody looked at me what are you doing there @@ but that's like [(xx)] </S1>
<S4> [er in belgium] we clap </S4>
<S1> @yes@ okay thank you very much that's i think that was very er interesting presentation about the belgian view , and i'm sure that you have got er some remarks and questions on it , or i co- you have to talk please don't just of- microphone er if you don't er talk then later we have got only the v- voices of <NAME S4> and me on on the microphone and i don't think that this w- will give many results of the research just that there is a german docent who has got some er @@ @some problems@ with her english so i just invite you to speak er , what do you er ha- have you got some questions some remarks on this er on this er presentation </S1>
<NS7> if nobody else wants to say anything so i'll say er [@@] </NS7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<NS7> [(xx)] erm yeah that was pretty good i i enjoyed it , erm i was i was just gonna ask you about er i guess that is from that book is that from the <S4> no </S4> just your research </NS7>
<S4> erm it's a dutch research and the one is the first one is erm from the university of i think erm utrecht and the other one is a is a wider erm investigation from erm holland yeah </S4>
<NS7> yeah i i guess i was just wondering if er from your feeling if er competences are are being too narrowly defined in other words , you are saying that a competency is an ability to let's , i'm trying to use an example that you used erm , to make an economic decision is that too narrowly defined or is it [is there a bigger is there a broader thing than that] </NS7>
<S4> [erm erm it's it's] it's bigger than that i think it's because we erm the the investigation and and the research i use is quite er directed on entrepreneurship and because of it's er actually from the european union and the EU-C-D or how <S1> [O-E-C-D] </S1> [is it] oh OECD erm they are the ones that erm asked for the for the research because erm entrepreneurship is at this time erm one of the most important things to get an economic drive and i think like in every political field economics are the thing that is successful in life so <NS7> mhm </NS7> i think that's why erm the first the first things i i talked about are more broader that entrepreneurship is really near economical way of of view and in the undertaking you have to undertake something to to succeed in life er but the first one are more er more general about what what competences can mean and i think the b- that the er first element that i that i summed up are not so erm directed on economics they are just just describing the term competences </S4>
<NS7> yeah , i guess one of the point i have was er in the first part of your discussion before you got into the entrepreneur part erm you made two (ticks) two comments that i wan- (xx) ask you to expound on and that's er concepts of er the competences being integrated supporting each other and comp- and the other one was that they are changing rapidly and i i'm not sure i agree with that but i just want to hear it </NS7>
<S4> erm my own my own point of view erm i think er they take in account that everybody has to develop their own competences and erm that they change rapidly it's just that the people nowadays take more and more erm initiatives to to get their knowledge higher and and it's you have to have a really high standard of education <NS7> mhm </NS7> and i think because of the the lifelong learning and all those things that the competences nowadays change more than i think before , erm it depends on on the on the context where in whe- where you achieved the the competences but if you come in- into contact with more different contexts and more different erm domains of knowledge your your er competences will change also more rapidly , <NS7 KNOCKS ON THE TABLE> erm for the interrelat- <SS> @@ </SS> for the interrelationship erm , erm i think it's they they wanna they wanna show that competences are , you can see it as one whole of your competence and erm some competences are not really erm clar- clearly erm erm defined no erm , separated from other er competences so i think that's that's quite er the the thing i want to say that er every competence you achieve has somewhere a connection to another competence it's just er it's the focus you lay upon the competence you wanna achieve that if you go go to finland and like for example creativity <NS7> mhm-hm </NS7> it has to do something with with the daring because if you're you don't dare you're you're not able to to challenge your own your own kind of thinking so you are not going to be creative , in that way i think you have to look upon it </S4>
<NS7> but but but the the i guess i'm thinking the the creative competence if you want to call that already has the daring built into it [because] </NS7>
<S4> [that] that is the point i want to <NS7> [okay] </NS7> [make] it just it's just where you wanna put the focus on <NS7> okay </NS7> that the in in in the sci- in the scientific research they separate the things but if you are going to look in a in a context then you have to ma- i think if you just make like a case study or something it's really hard to and that's the point i want to make it's hard to measure it because it has something of daring it has something of creativity but if you then then you couldn't say anything if you don't separate them so <NS7> [okay] </NS7> [that's] that's the (xx) </S4>
<NS7> yeah , so just for clarity you are talking about competences in an individual versus in a group of individuals then </NS7>
<S4> no no no it's it's both individual i think er but it's it's er </S4>
<P:05>
<NS7> is you are saying because i'm i'm just in terms of the competence being interwoven and supportive i'm wondering if your competences anybody else in this [room thinks with mine or yours are are (xx)] </NS7>
<S4> [if you , that depends on the context if y- you] are working together then your competences can be in a group i think can be supportive to each other and you can learn from other competences <NS7> [okay] </NS7> [to] to to er reinforce your own competences i didn't i didn't think even about it i always saw in an individual <NS7> [in the individual] </NS7> [perspective] but it's i think i think you have to you can use it like that as well </S4>
<P:08>
<S1> perhaps @@ now we are doing that <REFERS TO KNOCKING ON THE TABLE> just at the end if somebody is doing a presentation erm then afterward we are doing that @@ it's not like erm i agree with it @@ it's just er at the end of of of a pr- of a presentation we are @doing that@ yes that's very er interesting , er perhaps <SS> [@@] </SS> [oh my god @now (xx) german@] erm perhaps it makes sense to erm i erm i have got erm a sheet there where er where i have noticed the key competences which this er (<NAME>) identified perhaps it makes sense if i show you that so that er we can er contrast it or or or see where are the er similarities and the differences because i think there are er similarities much many similarities because it's also OECD study , er what what what's OECD what's the name for where or what because i know what does it mean <SS> <EXPLAINING OECD> </SS> please @@ </S1>
<SS> (xx) </SS>
<S8> organisation for economic and mhm mhm mhm @development@ </S8>
<S1> organisation @@ for economic </S1>
<S4> economic [and] </S4>
<S1> [and] who knows </S1>
<SU> cooperation </SU>
<S1> cultural work </S1>
<S4> cultural development </S4>
<S8> okay </S8>
<S1> so you because i er because you said oh i didn't know @@ okay </S1>
<S4> erm sorry , a- about an OECD actually erm who are the . erm what kind of political or or economical or or powers do they have or i mean who are the people that are erm responsible for or (xx) this organisation has a place in the global political world or </S4>
<S1> er yes erm er yes per- perhaps we can collect i i i i can say a few things but i think there are you are also know something about OECD what do you know about OECD <P:05> there are many strange organisations in <S4> [and and i know there are] </S4> [the world and it's really] an important question to ask what are they doing </S1>
<S4> yeah </S4>
<S1> @so@ </S1>
<S4> i i know it's a kind of thinking tank but </S4>
<S1> uh-huh yes [(xx)] </S1>
<S4> [and] and there are quite a lot of i think thir- 33 countries involved in it or <S1> [mhm] </S1> [something] 33 countries that that are [(in it)] </S4>
<S1> [i] don't know exactly but many many countries many <SU> western </SU> western countries sadly only western count- what do you know more </S1>
<NS7> about </NS7>
<S1> about OECD just tell me i know that you know , perhaps , do you know something </S1>
<S6> oh me @@ </S6>
<S1> yeah <SS> @@ </SS> you are looking @like@ like you know something about [OECD] </S1>
<S6> [i was looking] like that <SS> @@ </SS> i know that for example latvia is not in it but but it's it's actually erm countries who are not (in OECD) participate in studies like pisa as well <S1> yes </S1> at least what i know and i know that it's got like kind of very huge political power in europe and there's also deals with educational policy in the world <S1> uh-huh </S1> and so it's very important in (xx) <S1> uh-huh </S1> i'm not too strong in describing it </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm , what do you know more <NAME NS7> </S1>
<NS7> nothing <S1> er </S1> i just learned something </NS7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> @@ they they they are what is erm perhaps i think it's always much more easy to adopt to something you already know and that you are all almost all starting something that has to do anything with educational sciences and they are the the the organisation which are doing this erm educational comparisons not only PISA you know TIMMS and this er PIAC er for adult education they are they are doing this er this er comparisons and they are erm er education has got a very strong emphasis i think so , they they are erm achieving the the not only the cultural erm (xx) they are achieving the economic development and they are achieving the educational development for the economic development so it's er firstly an er organisation who is working on er economical er development of its of its partner countries and also of the whole world and they are thinking er that the that erm education is a yes is a very strong factor in this er development and it's also erm i think it's also interesting to know they have printed out an an report about er lifelong learning it's called the report on or title of the report is recurrent education , [so] </S1>
<S6> [may i] may i (xx) did you just say that OECD is er running TIMMS that the research <S1> [it it] </S1> [you just say] that OECD is doing TIMMS , and [you are talking about OECD] </S6>
<S1> [i i can un-] understand you yes </S1>
<S6> because you say that they do the TIMMS international research , did you say that </S6>
<S1> that they [are] </S1>
<S4> [yeah] </S4>
<S1> doing research [in] </S1>
<S4> [TIMMS] </S4>
<S6> [TIMMS] </S6>
<S1> [teams teams] </S1>
<S4> no no [TIMMS] </S4>
<SU> [no] </SU>
<S1> ah TIMMS yes [no] </S1>
<S6> [did you] say that <S1> yeah no </S1> because they don't it's a completely different organisation this is I-A and it's <S1> [really] </S1> [a] yes and it's a <S1> oh [sorry] </S1> [international] for no it's er I-A [international] </S6>
<S1> [TIMMS] T-I im- M-S-S </S1>
<S6> yeah it's different <S1> [a- about] </S1> [this is I-A] study <S1> yes okay </S1> and I-A is completely different @organisation@ </S6>
<S1> oh okay [sorry then i] </S1>
<S6> [and er yeah] </S6>
<S1> the- the- then [then that's my (fault)] </S1>
<S6> [and they actually] are not so very huge friends with OECD @@ so if you say [that they] </S6>
<S1> [sorry sorry] then it's my fault i thought but they are doing here the er no- no not here the but they are doing er this er comparisons er in in in erm i think it's in the seventh or eighth class <S6> [it's PISA] </S6> [er also] [that's PISA] </S1>
<S6> [and it's not] not not about classes it's about 15 year olds </S6>
<S1> yes yes yes so it's [around (these classes)] </S1>
<S6> [and the TIMMS study] is made by I-A and I-A is international association for education for evaluation of educational achievement [and so it's different] </S6>
<S1> [er okay so sorry] it's my fault but but they are er at the moment they are also erm developing this er PIAC <S6> [yeah] </S6> [study] and i know this because a colleague of mine is is is doing the work for for for germany or yes okay so sorry it's my fault [thank you very much] </S1>
<S6> [yeah @but@] @i just know they wouldn't like it if you say like that because@ </S6>
<S1> @thank you thank you@ @@ er so here this is erm this erm OECD put out this er erm recurrent education strategy for for lifelong learning but this is a er organisation which is doing primarily or focusing er in economic development and it's in contrast if you are reading this report from perhaps from UNESCO it's a more the report of UNESCO is more like er the development of the whole world and to get more fairness and also to develop education not , educational activities , not only e- er educational er systems all over the world , so and this report may be i don't know if you ever heard about this report erm recurrent education strategy for lifelong learning this is also very for- important er report i think so about lifelong learning , okay <P:06> so i'm really @@ then there i had a @@ er very false er erm category in my head , so i would li- like to show you now the categories of competence of key competences of this DC com- er , er research group (it's also) about OECD er they are saying also they are very deep in linked together yes they they are in er in a very very strong relation to each other and they are thing there are three er categories with er subcategories and erm the one is mhm the first is using tools interactively not only using tools but using it er interactively the erm the second is erm interacting in social heterogeneous groups and the third is acting <SIC> automously </SIC> that seems i think at first when i firstly read to this key competences they are perhaps seem like er opposites but they but er i think that's is a this special characteristics of this key competences and they said erm regarding using tools interactively they are focused er language language er symbols and text and er knowledge and information and technology regarding interacting in social he- heterogeneous groups they are saying er we relate to both to others to cooperate work in teams and to manage and resort conflicts and acting autonomously is er act with the big picture forming contact (xx) and personal (approaches) and defending (xx) drives interests (limited means) . so i think there are many many similarities to which y- y- you er you have told us from from er your belgium-dutch view benelux view er on things , also the relationship . also , i think also the , you can find the organising competence you said in many insight not ex- explicit told but in many insight , i also think that you find this er management competences perhaps in this active autonomous view <S4> mhm </S4> but what i really what m- what is my question also to you is er this opportunity competence @@ that that is really [@@] </S1>
<S4> [it's it's] not really clearly erm specified but er i think it's it's erm , it's it's again erm meant upon the the the daring with the taking taking initiative to start something new or to to just to see where you can get more elements to to reinforce your own competences i think that's what they mean with the opportunity to see where you have opportunities to do more <S1> [okay] </S1> [also] in in the direction of of lifelong learning like that you have to know yourself you have to have a competence and know yourself actually to know when you have to try to re- to reinforce your knowledge your skills your and that's why it's very important es- especially in the entrepreneurship [erm] </S4>
<S1> [yes] that's right so that's in this er yes that's the thing to this <S4> [mhm] </S4> [intrapreneurship] which you have [told about] <S4> [erm it's] it's not and </S4> <S4> [it's] </S4> [and] also to to this other </S1>
<S4> mhm , er i think it's mostly in that in that the way that you see it </S4>
<S1> do you have this in your countries do you have also er discussions maybe with some other terms er about this er intrapreneurship which has er <NAME S4> er told us </S1>
<S4> it's <NAME S4> </S4>
<S1> ah <NAME S4> sorry @@ , <NAME S4> , do you have such kinds of discussions , ah the germans we have , don't say no , we have someone but we have very but with er de- different term , do you know </S1>
<NS7> i think er yeah w- we have those discussions er i don't recall <COUGH> all the details , but er i think one of the things that came out of that discussion was you know entrepreneurial behaviour seems to , er just looking at the history of it erm come from , er kind of handed down in families if your father was an entrepreneur y- you that's one of the trades that you could have <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [picked up] not to say that's the only way you can learn that behaviour <S1> mhm </S1> but there was a strong trend <S1> mhm-hm </S1> where if your father was a a business owner and managed and created and ran his own business er the children tended to be more entrepreneurialship in that way they would instead of going and getting a what we call a nine to five job <S1> mhm-hm </S1> they would create their own business and run their own business which is a very gutsy thing to do it's very you need a lot of er strength of commitment and er you know courage to do something like that because your pay-check is not , there you have to create that pay-check so there was a we saw a lot of that trend and i think that the discussion showed that <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er but that's as far as i remember <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [from that discussion] so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but it wasn't something that they that i think they went out and tried to develop and sell it was just something they kind of because of their heritage or something , it , they felt that way or </NS7>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S4> it's the same in in the in in the dutch er investigation they also say that the contexts where where you live in erm if it's erm if it's er if the the the elements you can grasp very li- like you say it's something an attitude you get <NS7> [mhm] </NS7> [you] by by just yea- ge- growing up in such a situation <NS7> mhm-hm </NS7> that that is the the most important thing to to specify and also the they give some some advices for for er government er to to <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [imply] and to to reinforce the entrepreneurship and that's also one of the biggest erm advices like the the , how do you call it , the the not erm grasp the things you can grasp the conditions you can't really grasp and can't really define so do it because it's it's something that that has to do with education and that are the things that has to be erm simulated <S1> mhm-hm </S1> to to reinforce those competences <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i think it's so a- almost the same </S4>
<S1> i think we in germany have got both discussions but we don't have linked , yet we have discussion which you say y- about intrapreneurship i think er it's quite it's a little bit similar li- like ten years ago we have like self-management now we are discussing about self-competency or personal competency i i think that goes in that direction it maybe isn't exactly the same but i think it's goes goes in this direction and the other discussion we have about entrepreneurship isn't on this basis of competences it's it's on the it's on the basis of how to get our whole society to to get more a er more entrepreneur view we we have got in germany this situation that we develop much that we have research in er engineering sciences like the mp3 players this this were developed in germany but nobody er has got this er this erm engagement to put money in it to make money <NS7> [yeah] </NS7> [@@] er so and and er this is just one e- e- example and we have this discussion on er on the society view how to get the our whole society more and its members to investigate more in entrepreneur not all not just to develop clever things also to make money about it </S1>
<S4> but then then the entrepreneurship erm view is is quite quite <S1> mhm </S1> economically <S1> [yes] </S1> [erm] directed <S1> mhm-hm [yes] </S1> [er and] the other one that's more more <S1> [yes] </S1> [individually] er built in in the area </S4>
<S1> but we don't have linked these <S4> [yeah but it it's all] </S4> [discussions and and so] that's an interesting view for me that that that the perspective of self-management and er entrepreneur competence should be linked more together which we don't do in germany or </S1>
<NS7> what is is it because of the where germany's culture is because i again i keep comparing <S1> mhm </S1> (xx) use and economics , comparing a truly capitalist society like america where <S1> mhm </S1> you know er the individual is <S1> mhm-hm </S1> ranked or rated ba- based on economic envi- success <S1> mhm-hm </S1> which is wrong i don't approve of that but but the drive is to produce and to create as much money as possible <S1> mhm </S1> whereas in a communist society wh- traditionally communist let's say and it's not communist i know but erm </NS7>
<SU-4> it's socialist </SU-4>
<S1> @(is yeah)@ </S1>
<NS7> well i'm just saying that <COUGH> in that environment it's not about the individual it's about serving the so in that environment you wouldn't take a concept to market to make money <S1> [yeah] </S1> [you] would take a concept to serve you know the people but but the ability to take a concept to market is a capitalist training <S1> mhm-hm </S1> whatever , competency </NS7>
<S1> and i also think in our it's also er little bit in our culture that for us it is very nice to to be competent and to know much things and so on but not to have much money to have much money is interesting and everybody would like to have it but it's not really moral er okay yeah @@ so from the moral perspective or it's it's a little bit who has got much who has i- i- isn- isn't this our our view on if a person er is good he has to be <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> he has to have <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> <NS7> mhm </NS7> but er i don't think that that if a person has only got much money and no <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> that he is high ranked in in our society or </S1>
<NS7> [@that's interesting@ @@] </NS7>
<S4> [well i think i think that] what is in <S1> [i don't know] </S1> [in the US] <FOREIGN> bildung bildung </FOREIGN> as you define it <NS7> yeah yeah </NS7> can be seen and is always linked with the <S1> [yes] </S1> [economical] because we have a a wider and broader er social <NS7> [yeah yeah] </NS7> [security] erm system and in the US you don't have so to succeed in life <S1> yes </S1> in the US you have to be <S1> [yes] </S1> [economical] successful as well <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and here we don't have to be economical <S1> [yes] </S1> [successful] but only erm erm we have to develop <S1> [mhm] </S1> [ou-] our own personality [and (xx)] </S4>
<S1> [@@ yes] yes yes i also think that's maybe the reason because <S4> mhm </S4> but maybe that would be a good time that i present you the erm the erm the gap in the german discussion between <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and competence development so i have erm therefore a presentation for you <P:06> <FOREIGN> oh ja </FOREIGN> </S1>
<SU-5> @(xx)@ </SU-5>
<S1> so maybe erm i maybe ha- has to say something before i present this , you know i hate it if i <MOVING A TABLE> between here , so i put it here erm , yes in er germany there was erm until the german re-unification erm the the german government er thought about okay how can we reach an economic development in the east part of germany and they thought okay the solution the big solution would be further education , everybody from the east side of germany has to do er further education education and so on , what they have done is they give much money in an research project about competence development erm , after i think that that project started in 1990 or 91 erm after about five years erm they saw okay this er situation about er education further education er is in fact relevant for the east part of germany but also for the west part and they give more and more money in this research project and they finance it until the end of this year that means in germany that they ar- they are running much money into er research project about competence development and the great problem for our side for educational science is that this researches were just only er researches from er business sides economic sides which has the view on education and not the other side educational sciences which has the view on business yeah and er this is a strong problem and this author erm was honoured he is an author from educational sciences and he reflects the discussion about competence development which is (xx) much about this persons from erm educational or vocational sciences , so erm so yes that you have to know for the background and you know always when there is money we have got much (xx) , okay he says <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and competence development he says <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is a very traditional german term which is very difficult to connect to any international discussion what would you (if you are looking) do you also think @@ erm the german one it is erm i think the er <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is discussed i think also er at (xx) now in our sense erm in this sense of nowadays the discussion began to the beginning of the 90s with wilhelm humboldt erm and he said erm when there was also in germany the beginning of educational sciences in er university and he said a person who who is <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> you don't have <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> in german you are <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> that's yes that's @@ er you <FOREIGN> man hat nicht bildung sondern man ist gebildet </FOREIGN> yeah that's the difference erm so @@ erm so and this er humboldt <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] you-u you don't acquire <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> you are <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> or you are not [@@] </S1>
<NS7> [what] is the translation </NS7>
<S2> [there is no translation that's the problem @@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] [@@] </SS>
<S1> [there is no] <NS7> [okay] </NS7> [but but] <SU> [that's true] </SU> [but i will] show you [the erm] </S1>
<S2> [so the nearest word is education] </S2>
<SS> [<HEATED DISCUSSION IN THE BACKGROUND>] </SS>
<S1> <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is er term <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is er you can't but i will show you afterwards a little bit what you can mean about it what you can think about it and i will show you in the whole presentation but the problem is i don't think that you have in belgium the term <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> or </S1>
<S4> we use <S1> [do you have] </S1> [the] <SU> [yeah] </SU> [german] term <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S4>
<S1> <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S1>
<S4> we can't translate it <S1> yes </S1> [and] </S4>
<S1> [but] you don't have so long the er the <S4> [no] </S4> [erm] [(xx) about discussion] </S1>
<SS> [<OVERLAPPING SPEECH IN THE BACKGROUND>] </SS>
<S4> [but we] use it erm we we we are in between france an- and and germany and for germany the education is directed on <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and in france erm they are directed on mhm how is it called , it has more to do with er with the republican view maybe it's something different it's more society directed and <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is personally [developed] <S1> [and] philosophical </S1> yeah yeah that's why i know the term [because it's (xx) so] </S4>
<S1> [okay oh okay] that's interesting i we we er we er translate <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> into english with the word education but it's quite something different i i will show you just one second yeah er wha- but i will show you now what er humboldt , the er first discussion about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> where in at the beginning of the nineties -teens and there were the discussion that a person who has <FOREIGN> bild- </FOREIGN> w- who <FOREIGN> ist gebildet </FOREIGN> er is somebody who is all around er competent not competent but <FOREIGN> bil- gebildet </FOREIGN> <SS> @@ </SS> that means that that he knows all you you know that i- in the er mid age there was this situation that th- there was a canon of of knowledge which which they thought that is the knowledge of the world and there isn't more knowledge available yes that that was our european thinking of the mid age and a person [w-] </S1>
<NS7> [that] has changed right </NS7>
<S1> yes it has </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [that was good] </SU>
<S1> but that was really the the thinking in the mid age a- and for me that that was very interesting that that there that there was time when really the person the people are thinking that that is the knowledge of the world and and if you know that if you know all wh- what is available in the world on knowledge and the person who is <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> just has to know this knowledge and just has to speak erm erm greek and latin and old lang- the old european languages <NSU-7> mhm </NSU-7> mhm so that's person who is <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> and that's very very traditional and a very very long discussion in germany erm so erm so even if you ask people on the street i think it would be for everybody very difficult to describe what <FOREIGN> ist gebildet bildung </FOREIGN> and when i have talked to horst siebert a very very famous adult educator er in germany then he he he he said i couldn't teach in english , an adult education researcher , then he he has said i couldn't teach in english be- because i couldn't describe <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> in english because you can't describe it in english so that was for for me very interesting for me as a ge- as a young researcher i just think just try @@ let's say nothing if possible @@ just try so and one moment (xx) the competence development this this term seems like an orienta- an orientation er according to the real demand of the society and is demanded individual ability in problem solving so competence development seems like an an a present term the orientation is on the actual situation and that it- that we need problem solving , and <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> seems like an an very old-fashioned term that said arnold and he is an educational scientist now i will just show you what you can how you can define <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> i just use the definition of horst siebert who who w- who said you can't translate it and and and it was really difficult to to translate this term erm you can think about that <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is an interaction and self-reflection of a person with himself herself and his and her environment and the goal of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is the ability to interact competent and responsible , and <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is more than teaching and learning of knowledge and qualification er self-enlightenment is also part of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> do you know what i mean with er enlightenment <FOREIGN> aufklärung </FOREIGN> kant e- enlightenment that's <FOREIGN> aufklärung </FOREIGN> . yes this is one way of er one definition of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> but i think you can write books about it about there was a very famous book a a a very famous popular book in in germany around five or s- six years ago the book of schwanitz <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> <SU> yeah </SU> and it it's called <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> or what you should know to be <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> @@ that was a very very er very high discussed book because his he makes himself a a little bit funny about the german situation he he he he is a professor in history yes it's right it's professor i think it's history or in er philosophy or <SU> social sciences </SU> or social science <SU> yeah </SU> but he's a professor in this er in this er are- er in in in in yes social science or philosophy or things like that and he writes a book in which he all notes what a person should know to be <FOREIGN> ge- </FOREIGN> to be <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> and so a per- a person just has to read this book and then he is <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> and in this book he writes almost all from the beginning to the end the history of the of the of of the old europe the the the the history of the greeks of the latins @@ and only a little bit about math because in in in the common view of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> er history and and erm societies are much more important than know something about math and it's a little bit fashion in germany to just to say i don't know anything about math then th- yes it's true then you <SU> [yeah] </SU> [are] <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> @@ it was at that time very strong and now it's change a- a little bit so you will can perhaps think about have get an idea what we we are thinking what is <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S1>
<NS7> er yeah it's as clear as day to me i was er <S1> @@ </S1> no go ahead though </NS7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [very strong] and the problem is you will not find an english book about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> because it's i don't think if there is any book available because you can't reflect it because you do don't have the words for it </S1>
<S6> can <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> be translated in any other language or is it just impossible to translate <S1> [yes] </S1> [the term] or perhaps there is a word in the russian <S1> sorry </S1> perhaps there is a word in russian if there is no in english i don't know you know @@ can it be translated at all </S6>
<S4> no </S4>
<SU-2> [no] </SU-2>
<S6> [no] </S6>
<SU-2> [@@] </SU-2>
<S1> [er ye- yea- yes <NAME S6>] but we have this term in in danish the danish colleagues told me that <S6> [okay] </S6> [they] have this and yes and they told me @@ yes so and he says what arnold says that er german also don't connect their discussion about competence development with the long discussions about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> he says they just come in here in 1990s and said yeah er we are developing a new term it's called competence and this is de-connected to to the actual demands erm of the present and we are doing it just and they don't look in about the discussion about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> i said you the the the reason is perhaps that these persons aren't erm erm educational scientists , and the german discussion about competence development he says ignore that competence couldn't be produced rather than just be facilitated through didactical arrangement in all the discussions i have also read many many books about this erm research group and erm often you get a little bit the er feeling that they think that competence can quickly produce and at the educational er as as an educator you i think that's not possible you can't produce competence you can't you can just arrange didactical situation in which the person get a possibility to develop their competences (xx) or , so if i stand here and told you something you don't get it one to one into your head you can just use this situation here to think about this erm discussion and to (dock) it to the knowledge and the competence you have already but then it's your competence and it's not something i pro- produce but there is er i think there is an interesting discussion between er <NAME S5> and and <SU> (xx) </SU> no not <NAME S5> but between them you have got an in- interesting di- [discussion] </S1>
<S5> [@@] </S5>
<S6> we were just discussing what you were saying because er you are german </S6>
<S5> yes </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [so i was kind of] having private consultation about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S6>
<S1> okay just bring i- y- you i know that this er research that in one to one erm discussions in an er seminar there are almost very interesting (xx) and that you have to ask them not because i say i don't like to have this more discussion but because there are normally very er interesting discussions in we <S5> [yeah] </S5> [have] so so so i would invite you to to bring it into the whole [group] </S1>
<S5> [erm] the thing i guess er <NAME S6> just mentioned an interesting point that maybe it is <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> the ratio or whatever is something about <COUGH> the german problem the germans want to have such such words <SS> [@@] </SS> [i'm not actually it's not] not that far away from from the point because you can i think that's quite my my my own opinion that you can translate it like well-educated for example , but it's it's not <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's always like oh no we have another meaning but if you can read through a book and get <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> so what so it's just you have to know something because knowledge maybe it's it's not not really that one but if you i think you can translate it </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S2> a- and i'm also just wondering how many germans are really <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> [so @@] </S2>
<S5> [that's the other point that's the other point] </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [@that's that's a very interesting@] [@question@] </S1>
<NS7> [i don't] i don't mean to undermine it but from an american stand point and i'll speak for all americans now , who cares </NS7>
<S5> [yeah yeah yeah yeah that's that's true] </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS7> [wh- why] get bugged down with a word move on to the competence </NS7>
<S4> er that's because you are american and they are german </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<SU> [yeah but i can i just] [wanted] </SU>
<S1> @[that's really] but that's [good]@ </S1>
<NS7> [you know] we could and i- i'm saying from a you know for an american looking at the german perspective would be why you sitting with your your greatest minds debating a word you know if it's going in a cyclical discussion it's going nowhere <S1> [but then] </S1> [do what] do what the chinese do boil it down to a simple statement [you know] </NS7>
<S5> [yeah yeah that's what i mean] </S5>
<NS7> and [then (xx)] </NS7>
<S1> [but] but but therefore i can give you a very american answer @@ </S1>
<NS7> okay i'd love to hear it </NS7>
<S5> yeah [yeah] </S5>
<S1> [this] this discussion is because of money @@ <NS7> oh </NS7> it's because there [@very very often@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS7> [i don't care @@ i'd love to hear it though] </NS7>
<S1> it's it's because er research a very very big research group spent 15 years money very very much money to do research in competence development and this research group is from er from erm business sciences <NS7> [mhm] </NS7> [yeah] and the educational sciences are say- are just standing here outside and are are saying what are you doing here you are developing here things and you have got results we have already since years over years @@ <NS7> mhm </NS7> and so that's the that's the real background because of this erm erm discussion it is because of money be- because a research group gets money and has and only gets results which we had in in educational sciences already since years that's i don't would like to say that i agree in in this statement one to one here but i but tha- that is the erm the view of this author so maybe now you can understand a @little bit@ the idea that is the reason and erm and i think it's also the and the question is if if you can perhaps if you could er trans- no if if perhaps competence development if it would be more and better researched erm would be perhaps erm modern variety of (thinking) , i think that's also the question </S1>
<S5> alright maybe a question er <S1> mhm-hm </S1> we are both german i was i was er just whether it's just er er <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> just includes knowledge or whether it includes skills too for example put in simple way if you have to play an instrument are you <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> <S1> yes </S1> <S1> [yes] </S1> [or something] yeah that's just that </S5>
<S1> yes er perhaps we have also to say that <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> isn't just erm <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> is a learning outcome is a re- is a result of a learning process but it but we also call the process of learning also <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> @@ yes <SU> oh </SU> <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> yes erm and i think <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> includes all not only knowledge (and) skills also [(xx) values] </S1>
<S6> [so so i just] yeah i got another question so er can person be very smart but i don't know bad person or does it also count as this <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> <SU-5> mhm-hm </SU-5> or i don't know a killer for example very smart one is it is he <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> <SU> [yeah] </SU> [@@] no so is there also semantics and morals in the <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> or no </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm erm <S6> yeah </S6> before i will get an answer there is a comment too or </S1>
<S4> erm yeah [it was more it was more] </S4>
<S1> [would you like to say to this] </S1>
<S4> about the whole the whole [session than this] </S4>
<S1> [okay then i i] will tell , we don't have an answer about it yes </S1>
<S6> oh so it's not a condition </S6>
<S1> no <S6> [okay so you you will (xx) the discussion] </S6> [we er we don't have] th- this this er book as erm schwanitz er wrote five years ag- ago it was just a little bit a a joke to show what we are er implicit think what is <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S1>
<S6> so i have another question if you don't have definition so how are you going to translate it @@ </S6>
<S1> yes </S1>
<SU-5> [that's a good point] </SU-5>
<S6> <S1> [we are just] </S1> [even the germans] don't know what it means </S6>
<S1> yes no er yes <SU-5> [okay] </SU-5> [@@] that's yes but but but er that's our typical erm philosophical way of thinking what that we don't create answers but many many questions @@ </S1>
<S6> (so you are german) </S6>
<S1> yes yes @@ but that are , we (leave) exact right questions to to show you what i think this (xx) </S1>
<S5> but you said in the beginning oh sorry (xx) <SS> @@ </SS> that that that is erm that the (xx) source or whatever of the word is of the word is in the mediaeval times [like] </S5>
<S1> [er no] er no it's er after </S1>
<S4> goethe </S4>
<S1> it's it [it was] </S1>
<S5> [goethe] </S5>
<S1> no <S4> goethe </S4> yeah <S2> <FOREIGN> aufklärung </FOREIGN> </S2> yes but <SS> [@@] </SS> [er yes but but but it's but but yes but] just in an er common er thinking but in er educational sciences as in educational one it's er humboldt </S1>
<S4> yeah i know b- but er if we learn about it they always refer er , we we learn it from the educational point of view from humboldt but humboldt uses goethe <S1> [okay] </S1> [as] as the the description <S1> [yeah] </S1> [of] <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> th- that's what i wanted to say like the the words it doesn't it's not about translating it and about defining it , the word isn't meant to be defined in one specific way because you can't say what is <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> you can't say you can't say in in one way like this is the outcome of a learning process it's the whole process and the process never ends and like erm like the discussion about what is success succeeding in life what is successful living you can't say it because it i- it changes all the time it's it's </S4>
<NS7> it's er de- it's dependent on the [person] </NS7>
<S1> [that's] [that's very a good (point)] </S1>
<S4> [it's dependent on the person] on the context on the society on on everything actually that that's the point why why the discussion is ongoing and hasn't one straight strictly definition because you you it's it's about more about arguments than about this is the right thing that's the point of why why it's so difficult to talk about it because nobody is right and nobody is wrong in this discussion an- and that's that like you say if you want to have a practical point of view then just forget about the <SS> <S5> [yeah yeah yeah] </S5> [@@] </SS> [whole discussion] but if you want to have the the the foundation of education an- and the whole system of of a a personally development (xx) more then you can refer to <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and that's the difference between i think the the the american view like like you say like just forget about the <NS7> [mhm] </NS7> [discussion] just go practical and the more philo- philosophy it's a philosophical tradition i think about from more the the german part </S4>
<NS7> i i'll put it another way because maybe i didn't say it very well is you know erm i i know that i know the , the flashlight works i don't have to know how electricity works to use the flashlight </NS7>
<S4> yeah yeah but that's that's if you wanna be practical <NS7> [yeah] </NS7> [and] forget about the whole discussion it's it's [(that's the essence of)] </S4>
<NS7> [so i i gain] nothing by learning how electricity works , if you get this what i what i from an american <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [standpoint] i don't need to [redevelop or re-establish electricity @@] </NS7>
<S1> [yeah that is] </S1>
<S4> [yeah yeah but i think in the real life] if if you don't know how electricity works and the guy that knows how electricity works does then you have nothing anymore and you [don't have a flashlight anymore] </S4>
<S1> [yes but] this is er er european answer to [@@] </S1>
<S4> [yeah yeah of course] <S1> yes </S1> but for me for me the foundations are the most important and then the practical point <S1> yeah </S1> and for you i think it's [more] </S4>
<NS7> [er] let me use another one because electricity is one you can learn <SS> [@@] </SS> [i i don't] know how the brain works i just need to know that you can train a mind to do something </NS7>
<S4> then why are there's so much money for psychological research [and] </S4>
<NS7> [but] <S1> [@i don't know either@] </S1> [they still don't know] any more [than you and i know] </NS7>
<S4> [yeah it's true it's true] but that that's science i [think] </S4>
<NS7> [that's] true and i think i think we should spend money trying to find things out but trying to figure out what this word means i disagree [@@] </NS7>
<SU-5> [this is the difference] [why i] </SU-5>
<S4> [and] it's not about the word it's <NS7> [okay] </NS7> [about] the the thinking after the words <NS7> yeah </NS7> the <S1> [perhaps er] </S1> [dynamic] behind the word </S4>
<NS7> [okay] </NS7>
<S1> [perhaps] i can show you again er little bit more to to get also erm , yes erm , i will jus- three minutes erm to show you where are what we are doing with this <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> for i think for our german view th- th- this is (xx) little bit pr- er practical @@ i accept that for your your view that won't per- perhaps it isn't so practical but i think it it's er interesting to have a look on it what we are doing there are many erm there are available discussions about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and erm <NAME> shows in this article er from the second part of the last er century in edu- cation and he says that in the 1970s there was a <FOREIGN> realistische wende </FOREIGN> it's like realistic change er and he says that in that discussion we already had that erm that the focus of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> should also be on vocational education that's erm i think that's an er parallel we have got in competence in th- i- in the discussion about competence also but we also have this this discussion in the discussion about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> how should <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> be or what should <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> focus on , in the 1980s we have got er reflect the er <FOREIGN> reflektive wende </FOREIGN> reflective change that erm we said that er the development of the personal identity is also a task and a challenge of adult education not only the vocational , then in the mid-1980s we have got the <FOREIGN> ganzheitswende </FOREIGN> the holistic change the ability to act act competent is is is the goal of vocational education that's this view of that you have to put put all abilities and skills and so on to to be an erm to have the ability to act you can act competent , and in the 1990s we have got <FOREIGN> utilitaristische<SU> <SS> [@@] </SS> [what's that] </SU> [wende] </FOREIGN> you see that we are like this er philosophical er @@ terms the utilitarian change that means that learning for a purpose isn't or mustn't or isn't an opposite to personal development , and that are the discussions we or that are our practical things @we are doing with this term <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> @ @@ so . i just . yes , erm arnold further said that the terms often don't reflect er critically the different traditions about this term competence that with this er remark he means the erm the er concept we have discussed on our webpage you you don't find in any publication and they have metres and metres publications pro- produced in this er 15 years any remark on on this er concept on on on chomsky as well , and they produce a dichotomy between qualification and competence they are saying qualification is the old-fashioned word now w- we must call it competence . and erm competence is discussed oh sorry there was er er (fault) in a contrast to further education they say competence development is something different than further education so erm we are we educ- we are from educational sciences we stand up and say no that couldn't be right what you are doing there so . yes and arnold said we should more reflect about which competences which key competences could be the prerequisites for the ability to act competent , and in by- which didactical arrangements can these key competences support , so he he said competence development isn't really erm he no no er he he says that the discussion about competence development is very he analyses very critically and he said that we are much much further in the discussion about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> and about er education er and so er that we should link on this discussion but i also think may- maybe one argument why this they don't do this this is be- because it is so difficult to link this discussion and results of the research about <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> to the international confer- erm discussions , so this is just one thing er about <FOREIGN> bi- bi- bildung </FOREIGN> perhaps i just show you again this about er <P:08> do you also think that these results are a part of the of the of competence competence development <P:07> that you should er educate people also vocationally regarding their personal identity that we had @@ just (xx) to- to- today that you should have this ability to act competent that you can what your er spanish er students told us to put together several knowledge and skills to can can cause a problem and with erm erm that learning pr- purpose might <FOREIGN> ja </FOREIGN> is- isn't opposite to personal de- de- development i also think your discussion about in- er entrepreneurship and intrapre- pre- -preneurship shows this very , er (detail) <S4> mhm-hm </S4> , but i just don't would li- er like to stop these discussions i had done and (xx) , have you got any remarks on it anymore i think you will have more questions (about) [yes] </S1>
<S2> [where] do we get er <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> now in germany is it in school <FOREIGN> also </FOREIGN> de- depending on myself or i i don't know <S1> [that's a good question] </S1> [because of the] because of the discussion about schools and education in in germany so ho- how can you measure <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> @you know@ @@ </S2>
<S1> yes it's @@ but i don't yes let's [@@] </S1>
<S4> [i-] isn't that the the same discussion as you have about erm the non-formal learning is also like <S1> [but you] </S1> [how] can you how can you put non-formal learning into qualifications actually or or how can you describe it as competences that you achieve and now i think we are with competence and <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> like in the in the last the <FOREIGN> utilitaristische wende </FOREIGN> erm but , is there a difference between the the goal-directed learning or to or to personal development and how to to bring it about i think that's the discussion that's now everywhere especially with the with the focus on non-formal learning <S1> mhm </S1> and yeah i don't know (result) </S4>
<S2> what do you think w- where do we get <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> </S2>
<S1> i don't think that it's a discussion where we erm that that we would like to measure <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> <S2> [mhm] </S2> [we] we perhaps would like to measure not even measure but erm <S4> but we </S4> some learning outcomes maybe not even com- competence </S1>
<S4> yeah in in in belgium and the dutch it's quite hard they want to measure <S1> [mhm] </S1> [competences] they they are trying to find all kinds of ways they know that it's not <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [easy] but they wanna measure it <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and that that's the discussion in belgium that's going on quite hard </S4>
<S1> we have we have the dis- discussion about the validation of informal learning that means to make viewable erm what you have learned but not to measure it , yes <S2> mhm </S2> that's quite er that's something er different if you just reflect on how that you afterwards have a list on what what learning outcomes you have <S2> yeah </S2> or if you can measure it and say okay it's one two three , [by] </S1>
<S4> [but] isn't that a little bit in contrast to what they are doing on on more global level <S1> [yes] </S1> [because] on global level they wanna just they they wanna make it viewable but they also wanna make it comparable so and and to make it comparable yeah they say like okay we have to measure it because otherwise there's no way we can compare it because otherwise it's too context-bound and too subjective too </S4>
<S1> mhm-hm i also think er as you said in in your second er sentence that i- isn't the th- er this isn't the er opposite to global but that is only one part of what we are er globally are doing erm i think we er we also erm we discuss it more in this OECD context <S2> yeah </S2> er with this with the terms er er key competences but not erm yes in this part i never heard someone who said that he would measure <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> @@ because <S2> [it's a kind of defining] </S2> [th- th- the- phil- philosophical] <S2> [oh] </S2> [view] we would just discuss about how do people get <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> or how we can make situations available in which persons can erm can <FOREIGN> sich bilden </FOREIGN> <S2> [mhm] </S2> [to] <FOREIGN> bilden </FOREIGN> itself <S2> mhm </S2> erm but not in measurement but not in regard measure <S2> mhm </S2> but i i think if you can understand this or not understand i think you can't understand @@ maybe we e- even don't understand but i- if if you get this if you have this discussion of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> you have this typical german thinking about this philosophical way of of handling with the things so i also think we are very happy if we can develop erm erm er machine like an mp3 player but we don't think how how to get money from it and i think that that's a great problem we have at the moment so in our [society] </S1>
<S6> [i think] if you finally find out how to get a good <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> you will germans will be much better than all the other people around the world <SS> [@@] </SS> [because] (xx) will be <FOREIGN> gebildet </FOREIGN> all the nation , yeah so you have to find how </S6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [b- yeah but but ,] but it's very interesting in my research where i i have i have er interviewed erm er people in erm in a company i i did erm interviews with managers in a in a company in germany in spain and in great britain and there erm i compare informal learning in a work environment and if you ask the persons what they have learned informally in germany it's very very much like oh yes oh i i be more self-aware and i have developed myself personally and so on and so on er whereas in other countries like in great britain they are they are er bringing education together in with o- okay i have got a goal i would like to reach it and for that i have to acquire this and that thing , whereas in spain it was more like erm how to say how to , yes i have got a situation and somebody is telling me i have to handle with this situation and it's important to handle good with this situation and and that's my goal and then i'm satisfied and and and that's what really i get to know oh that was @really@ in the bottom of the heart of of each of this er group so erm this ha- has an very very strong er influence er on our thinking even if we don't have er recognised (until now or) until you know , so i hope that you get a small @@ introductory into our world of <FOREIGN> bildung </FOREIGN> i will send you all this er material to so you can research more on it if you know i- i- if you can read er german maybe you can also erm read this article which is available on the internet or in the internet and yes sorry if i ever fi- will find an english written @article@ i will send it to you , but you can erm summarise i think the discussion which is 2000 years old in one article er not 2000 200 in educational sciences @@ a- two er 200 years old okay , so i would just like to to erm end now our er conference <TURNS PROJECTOR OFF> for me this er session was very very interesting and the discussion was very in- interesting i hope for you too er @@ <SS> @@ </SS> and i al- i also i hope that you aren't very er unsatisfied because you have got more questions than answers but when you have this now then you know this is our typical german style of <SU> [@@] </SU> [teaching] that you afterwards have more questions than before so maybe in belgium is it's a little bit like this or @@ <SS> [@@] </SS> [@yes@] so erm this is er the way , so i would just like to to to erm to use this time an- again for erm for your questions regarding your erm yes regarding learning portfolio regarding the international course of lecture er regarding everything erm about the technical of this yes of this erm study (field) , have you got therefore any questions . you have on the erm on this page of the mhm on the mhm plan of this er course y- you have my contact data it's normally i i i answer emails very very quickly it's just erm if i'm on er travelling or er in any conference then i can't answer emails but normally you get an a- answer within few hours or in in a few days , so erm have you already so have you questions <P:15> who would like , yes who would like to yes <NAME S10> </S1>
<S10> i got a question i don't understand erm this learning portfolio and its third question <S1> mhm-hm </S1> is there any link between the (national education) and the vocational system of </S10>
<S1> yes erm that's yes w- w- we have to er discuss it but perhaps you see any , erm , i will give you an e- an example for er germany yes erm in in our german syste- in in er germany it's very it was very hard to to erm , to get the term or the thinking about competence discussed be- because we have got a very very strong vocational system of education our dual system where where erm pupils when they have finished school normally go into , they have got a two-way education that means they are going to an er to an erm to a firm on the one side and they are er going to school once or twice a weekly or erm every six weeks for two weeks or things like that and so we have got this very very strong lobby of erm the dual vocational e- erm education system and so they for example don't want to measure competences because then , competence would get near to the certificate you get through this dual system , you don't understand <SS> [@@] </SS> [okay] erm that's good @@ er er it's erm in our system in er germany qualification are very very highly discussed because you get a qualification through the visiting of this system , yes then you are qualified and you are able to work and to earn money much money and so the- there are many many people who are working in this system and who are thinking that this system is very very good yeah and competence in their thinking is just something additionally what you maybe acquire or maybe isn't so important but important is the qualification and so erm we had got this erm this discussion erm on competence was very very long an- and (xx) or discussion or er discussion which had managers for example , they have to be competent and so on now now now it's different but they're researching but if you it's not so necessary that you answer each question there erm one for one if you don't see it could be that you don't see an er link to the er switzerland er system that doesn't matter then just write that down but perhaps you see er i- it's it's more important to have all in all a- a- about erm seven or eight questions and when you think one question would be more interesting for you and your background erm of your country then erm answering erm this question more longer er than the others , because when you are in an international setting it's always the discussions are always very er different and and and so you can't erm get for each question one to one er answer (xx) , okay </S1>
<S8> do you do you need the whole weinert text or only the classification that we all read <S1> erm </S1> er yeah [just (thinking)] </S8>
<S1> [regarding the] that er refers to the er classification </S1>
<S8> okay you don't need the end of that [okay] </S8>
<S1> [no] would you like er who would like to write a learning portfolio , o- one two three four five six seven eight nine , okay and the and who would like to erm take part in the er international course of lecture <SS> @@ </SS> that would be very important for me to know because then you get er er invitation er or and and yes online er please can yes <NAME S4> , i can also learn something okay who more who more <NAME NS7> </S1>
<NS7> i'll be the troublemaker </NS7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> and <NAME S6> <S6> yeah </S6> <NAME S6> and <NAME S5> <S5> <NAME S5> </S5> <NAME S5> and who more do you are not sure then er just er write me an email until er 27th of october if you would like to take part in a international course of lecture so that you can get the invit- so that you can get the invitation so er yes then i will erm invite you therefore and the er others i would like to ask you to send me this learning er diary until the beginning of the er of december and then you will get very shortly the feedback and the grades and erm you told me that you need a signature from me <SU> yes </SU> erm a- are you sure that you will need this er signature from me and not from <NAME> </S1>
<SU> no [from you] </SU>
<S1> [from me] erm then we can then we can either you can send me the paper and i will fastly send it back to <SU> [okay] </SU> [you] you can be sure that you will get it back and it will don't be lost erm otherwise if you need one paper where every docent has er undersigned then perhaps you can at first let undersign it here and i will undersign it and then i i will se- send it back to you either in helsinki or in spain wh- where you are it doesn't ma- matter for us , so , okay </S1>
<S4> we we need actually a grade from one to 20 </S4>
<S1> from one to 20 </S1>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S1> oh </S1>
<S4> our grading system is like that </S4>
<S1> okay er what's one what's 20 </S1>
<S4> one is really bad </S4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> yeah [you don't get one] </S8>
<S4> [and ten is] and and what's this ten and </S4>
<S8> if you're </S8>
<S4> ten is er just [enough] <S8> [then you have] yeah </S8> erm 12 is </S4>
<S8> okay </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [have you got er] er of this [system in english] </S1>
<S4> [i will i will find i will] translate from our [i will send it to you] </S4>
<S8> [yeah it's like] yeah [so] </S8>
<S4> [from our web page] </S4>
<S8> so (xx) didn't know , i don't know [if they] </S8>
<S4> [mhm yes] and [i will i will send it to you] </S4>
<S1> [that that's a really interesting] learning project for me ca- can you realise the the the grade system we in germany now have very , with the B-A we in duisburg i don't know if you have it all we have a grade system that means that you get er er grade that you get two grades one from one to five one is the best five you have failed and one is <FOREIGN> duisburg-essen(xx) </FOREIGN> <SU> mhm </SU> that er the first that the best 15 per cent get A the next 25 get B and so on er for my thinking this is very crazy but @@ for you it's also <NAME NS7> </S1>
<NS7> (xx) the bell curve [use a bell curve] </NS7>
<S1> [yes] it's very for my my way of thinking of giving grades it's very crazy but erm we have to do it , because i don't like to make a ranking er but so i'm h- i i hope in your system it's no ranking or </S1>
<S4> no no <S1> [no no] </S1> [it's not] like that it's just we need a <S1> [okay] (xx) </S1> [grade because er] but er but i i think i can find in our website of our university [(xx)] </S4>
<S1> [yes] yes that is very help- helpful for me okay , any questions furthermore oh you are looking so (off) <SU> yeah </SU> you are you are too (off) <SU> what </SU> you are too er i often get on wednesday evening i i was home er i i i i i fell in my bed and yesterday it was the same but i thought i'm now in helsinki i would like to see something from this city @i just go out and (xx)@ , so i so erm i say er thank you very much for for your er participation , for me it was very er interesting and this this especially the the discussion today was very very er interesting for me i hope you also get erm an hm- little v- an view in- into our different perspectives on thinking so thank you very much and perhaps we will see anywhere but anyhow okay bye <KNOCKING ON THE TABLES> [@@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
