<TITLE: European Information Society
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: journalism and mass communication
EVENT TYPE: lecture discussion
FILE ID: ULECD010
NOTES: continuation of ULEC01A and ULEC01B

RECORDING DURATION: 22 min 19 sec

RECORDING DATE: 4.10.2002

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 3

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<LECTURE ULEC01A by S1>
<LECTURE ULEC01B by S2>
<S1> maybe we can now er discu- well [have a] </S1>
<S2> [have a dialogue @@] </S2>
<S1> have a dialogue yeah first of all substantive er remarks or comments on on on <NAME S2> to <NAME S2> and then er we have to agree also how to do the homework because i would really like er all of you to participate give some feedback on this we could take it as one little slice of the two ECTS or one finnish credit unit performance that you are doing with this . with this er er course er some some er i don't mean a big essay analysing the the whole er er subject but some erm even relatively instant erm er [feedback] </S1>
<S2> [yeah great great] </S2>
<S1> er we should set the date when by which time you should er erm you should er do this er i was kind of before you came in the beginning erm er foreseeing that perhaps towards the end of this erm friday lecture series when we come to a kind of two seminars where we are erm winding up er this part and er and discussing the the the next stage of of the er common erm work leading ultimately to the master's thesis er of each one er we we we should perhaps take this matter up as well but is it is it okay to leave it until december or should we do it now as it is fresh in a more instant way let's say in a couple of weeks , what would you say . erm </S1>
<S2> w- while they are thinking about it <S1> yeah </S1> could i say that if there's anything that that people would be . wanted to have some feedback from those involved in drafting that would be stupid to say of course as one is always <S1> mhm mhm </S1> having problems with time <S1> mhm </S1> er but still you know thinks this is such an important exercise er if people would find it useful also to get comments on whatever they may propose from the group that is working on the draft declaration i'm quite willing to to organise that </S2>
<S1> yeah to pass to them <S2> yeah </S2> yeah so ah . er we haven't er decided exactly what we would ask you but i i would erm i would er suggest that you do something a little homework reading this carefully considering in your mind with whatever knowledge and er competence you have as a er beginner at the er master's er programme on information society how this sounds to you how do you what sounds what what what looks or reads odd what in your erm modest opinion er you think is missing and and so on kind of critique from the reader's side er that might be er general er recipe for the homework and then you could also give some more elaborating if you want to send some specific remar- regards to the er to the er drafters erm by all means but we don't need to i can er process this first your feedback and then pass er your remarks further to <NAME S2> in case there is something which which you would like to bring to him and through him to the drafter when do you expect this this is still a so-called non-paper namely not officially distributed not even in the CRIS <S2> no </S2> network because CRIS has now how many NGOs involved </S1>
<S2> 21 </S2>
<S1> 21 now and some of them are really wide like the women's er et cetera so erm er this is not yet going around it's still in the kind of preparatory er </S1>
<S2> this is the first group that sees it , how about that </S2>
<S1> oh <SS> @@ </SS> outside your in- inner circle </S1>
<S2> [yeah yeah (xx) quite small team of drafters] </S2>
<S1> [but you are going to] yeah and you are going to er give it to other classes but not too many ah yeah okay so but what's the </S1>
<S2> only to the intelligent ones </S2>
<S1> okay <SS> @@ </SS> yes of course you can't have more intelligent than here </S1>
<S2> oh yeah you have to be selected </S2>
<S1> so erm , er when do you think in in terms of your time </S1>
<S2> w- we want to have a better draft by the second prepcom so we can begin to lobby particularly with ambassadors <S1> right </S1> in a formal way so that they also have a feeling they can still make a contribution </S2>
<S1> and the second prepcom is probably in february </S1>
<S2> yeah . and then the last one , and that's the real decisive one that will be towards the summer or maybe in september then of course we want to have er final draft </S2>
<S1> yeah but you you really will have a kind of more publicized distributed draft by er , [maybe january] </S1>
<S2> [january] january </S2>
<S1> yeah so december would be the last moment to have a input er but could you do it earlier maybe we could easy your this end of the term erm work load by agreeing that you do this let's say , by the end of october , would that be okay <SU> yeah </SU> in in in tr- three weeks time or <S2>  yeah , great </S2> maybe you would erm well is that clear enough erm erm instruction for your homework er you could read this carefully with critical thinking and er consider it as er because this is actually not meant for the high courts of the countries the <S2> mhm-hm </S2> super lawyers this is not meant for the diplomats , only , this is meant for , er basically , all erm . seriously consider- er seriously involved </S1>
<S2> the children's version <S1> uh-huh [yeah] </S1> [that] is most interest- you always get the best comments from those children who are not yet spoilt by education </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> so this PCC people's communication charter is as <NAME S2> told another document which was sponsored by by er or which was <S2> [at the same (xx)] </S2> [prepared] before the more or less the same group but it's it was finished before the CRIS was formally established for the sake of the summit but er PCC er was erm ready about five years ago or something </S1>
<S2> yeah <S1> yeah </S1> and its (xx) minutes (sees now) i don't know in ten , 12 different languages being used <S1> [yeah] </S1> [by] groups around the world </S2>
<S1> yeah but you will find it from the <S2> yeah </S2> website of the CRIS <S2> yeah </S2> which you have there , okay now erm er the , the instruction would be to read this carefully with the eyes of , your own eyes namely er graduate or post-graduate students er and er if if you don't understand something then don't be ashamed er put it , er openly and if you think something is overexposed or something is missing , make it clear and make a kind of criti- er , critical review of this document and erm </S1>
<S2> yeah as and if someone would for example look particularly at the last part and say , i take a very critical look and say all sounds nice and well at ombud's office (xx) so amnesty international (xx) for this but is it going to work </S2>
<S3> er do you see this bucharest meeting in november have some special importance in promoting the ideas of this , this er declaration </S3>
<S2> i- i could agree (to it) some of the er some of the ambassadors (have to know) this swiss and the er , er but i don't where it , what role they precisely would play since they're non-EU , but also in austria and the dutch ambassador will to to begin to explore whether there is also a constituency in the european union to talk about the right to communicate , er but i think i hear the bucharest meeting will probably still to a large extend be focusing on the issues of the structure , of the er of the meeting er and and the question i think for the bucharest meeting will be among others will the european union be be willing to make a very strong plea for an open and democratic structure of the eventual summit er this is quite possible because of the romanian government for example has made it quite clear that they have also been fighting for the very large scale NGOs to bucharest they want to make it clear that it is their position that this meeting should be open , i think th- this apart from whatever will be said about the content of the meeting the part that will also , have to focus on procedures because the procedures still haven't been resolved , and of course need to be resolved by the second prepcom because otherwise it gets too late for the , in the process because also the NGO community has said if by february we don't know what our role is and some of us will just go ahead and have an alternative conference <S3> mhm </S3> and then th- and the question then will be also for some governments as where do they stand (xx) </S2>
<S1> but anyhow this won't be yet distributed in in bucharest </S1>
<S2> no </S2>
<S1> it's still being prepared [within the NGO community] </S1>
<S2> [no but we we] we've talked to some people in (xx) and also because of the effect that of course within the union , there is strong tendency to also narrow the focus of it all , information society debate somewhat technology issues and internet issues er and i think what we try to do also through the IT community is to say whatever the information society precisely certainly has to deal with very broad (sense) of social issues it's much more than just technology or the infrastructure , so if if that would come out for example bucharest vaguely stated there is vaguely notion that the meeting has to be , much more complex and just focusing on the limited (set of issues) that would be er very beneficial to the conference </S2>
<S1> yeah it would help give some impetus to <S2> [yeah] </S2> [this] er dimension but regardless of what even if they would give a more limited signal <S2> mhm </S2> from bucharest this will go on </S1>
<S2> yeah , yeah yeah yeah </S2>
<S1> as a NGO initiative , and er , so </S1>
<S2> and also <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] it's one human agency is (faring with) s- support with this (xx) UNESCO </S2>
<S1> mhm yeah , now </S1>
<S3> may i first say er i was asking basically for this because er it's possible that in the finnish delegation the finnish civil society will be well represented by me so i would be also be grateful for any feedback [(xx)] </S3>
<S2> [good nice yeah good yeah] </S2>
<S1> <NAME S3> is sitting in a in a sort of advisory board which the foreign ministry political department has set up for the preparation of the finnish side of the summit , then er i'm involved in the UNESCO commission , er preparations , er as a kind of expert but but er and there are others so fin- finland is really taking seriously this sort of non-state participation but it is largely true isn't it <NAME S3> that neither foreign ministry nor UNESCO have really , determined and clear opinion what is the remit and the mandate and the limits and so and so it's it's it's still very vague as you started we have a summit w- we don't know what is the animal that we are er playing with </S1>
<S2> you see what i what i think my reasoning with some of the governments in geneva was when they said that it has it has to be intergovernmental because we have to take decisions and that's just responsibility of governments , my argument against that is no this meeting doesn't have to be , about taking legal decisions , this meeting doesn't have to be about taking decisions about the allocation of resources , yes if you go to allocate resources from public funds then that is the responsibility of governments , i can see that but this summit should have a different purpose this to a large extent will also have educational purpose , mind you most people in the world don't know what the information society is or what its significance is or what a role is for information communication technologies or how their society is developing towards maybe an information or a knowledge society or whatever there's very important , i mean even if you have some controversy with the notion of the information society you can't deny that they are to the world extremely important informational developments , developments in which information communication technologies play an important role that have social soc- consequences , so that something is happening around the world which is extremely complex , very difficult to understand , i see this meeting also as a major chance to educate the broad audience in the world about what is what is happening and that you know er and how we need to mobilise forces to think about how we want to save the future of our individual societies and the world society that's what this is all about and if you take that angle the- there is no need to be nervous about sitting together around the table , because then there is no need to be very worried about but w- w- what responsibilities do i have or do you have no we have all the same responsibility to make this a major success the worst thing that could happen is , if on such a complex theme the UN just messes it all up , and ends up with the total non-committal document you know with a long list of all kinds of things that may have to be done which no-one will understand with no signature from civil society so that citizen in the world you know will feel why would they take this seriously because this has got nothing to do with them i think then we do a real step backwards then we have to do all the work all over again , missed opportunity , so looking at it from an educational point of view i think it's created different <S1> mhm-hm  </S1> different angles the meeting at 2003 doesn't have to take it a decision about my 80 billion dollars i can see tha- that wouldn't work because then you need to raise all these issues who are you really representing and how legitimate are you and what are you speaking on behalf of but those should not be the issues of this world summit , we have to do other things which are far more important at this point in time and they can be done by sitting around the table <S1> yeah </S1> and have a final declaration or a declaration i mean , mind you a declaration in the international law has no has no binding significance i'm not talking about a l- l- legal document that will bind nations states to do certain things , i'm talking about a declaration as a moral commitment like the universal declaration of human rights , no binding law it's a moral commitment of the world community to say this is important now th- as far as i'm concerned i mean i i wouldn't fight the rest of my life if this wasn't accepted in this way but i'd like , to concrete outcome of the conference a joint document that tells the world community these are really important issues , and we meaning states and business corporations if they are willing to come along and citizens from all these organisations have signed this together and now say let's work on these basis </S2>
<S1> so , you would er like this ultimately to lead into the approval of the summit of course <S2> yeah </S2> but in in thi- <S2> [and and but yeah] </S2> [this case] but it would not be the only declaration <S2> [no no no no] </S2> [or er] there would a number maybe a dozen others , like it was in 1948 when u- united nations had this er conference on freedom of information in this package of appendices you have after the UNESCO mass media declaration two resolutions of the 48 er conference er (final act of the) er er UN conference of freedom of information in this thing that you got , er resolution number one it's not called declaration but it's almost like a declaration sets the parameters of definition of freedom of information in the way which is still repeated today in <S2> that's true </S2> many national er constitutions and so on and their resolution number two so a conference of th- or a summit of this kind probably will pass a number of resolutions and declarations and and so on <S2> yeah </S2> but you hope that this would be among them <S2> yeah </S2> and er now we have this unique opportunity of influencing this drafting process be- before it's even er tabled for for for the erm preparatory er pipeline and let's agree that you will make such a , it you choose your own style you can do it in a more essayistic or in or in a telegraphic but let's say minimum er well two pages with the er 1.5 er space , er how many words i don't know but but er you could write longer if you want but and basically if you if you could comment each part preamble part one part two er maybe no comments but and you have more more on something like the implementation the last one which you you called er er for attention , but anyhow this is a unique opportunity for us to imp- er influence to an one eventual outcome of the er world summit you never will have any other possibility of this calibre er before the er </S1>
<S2> to make a difference in world history how about that </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> yes and er now the last word er i would say that er it was very fortunate that we have we got er erm er <NAME S2> here today to introduce us this topic but even without him i would have introduced it and and er distributed to you this this prepcom one erm er resolut- er er sort of report which you got in the materials er given already in advance and er , keep file these carefully these er these er er er summit documents because we are we are going to give you and now you means the INSO erm er the master's erm programme group er i think the this summit will be a kind of , godfather of the world to your programme because it so happens that now the prep- preparatory steps are p- taken while while you are you are having the first academic year during the second the middle of the second academic year in december 03 the summit itself first part of the summit takes place in geneva , then 04 the du- tu- it's divided between geneva and tunis , tunisia is scheduled er </S1>
<S2> 2005 </S2>
<S1> er two- s- 2005 then you are hopefully already over but but the the <SS> @@ </SS> crucial part will be certainly in this er in this er geneva er part and i'm er i will er promise to you that as a sort of special extension of this module INSO one you will get briefing stage by stage with , er even physical paper copy of the essential er reports of these preparatory steps and maybe we'll even improvise next spring one little sort of , lecture course or seminar by few hours whereby we'll we'll follow up and if we are lucky we may even have <NAME S2> here again to give some er further evident and and er <NAME S3> and myself and a few others from finland can also contribute and keeping you updated this is such a unique possibility we have a master's programme on information society and for the first time in human history the uni- the the leading international intergovernmental organisation where the civil society participation is is is organising a summit we should really pay attention to that that should be one of the sort of pedagogical and scientific targets of our programme to be informed and to even be involved and hopefully even some of you would choose your master's thesis topic so that it would deal with these issues maybe even the whole process it would be er good good topic , okay we are beyond 12 already , thank you <NAME S2> for coming it was </S1>
<S2> [thank you good to be here] </S2>
<S1> [really nice to have a] special guest here <APPLAUSE> and everybody has fi- marked their presence here </S1>
