<TITLE: Suffrage, Gender and Citizenship: International Perspectives on Parliamentary Reforms
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: political history
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS090
NOTES: session includes presentations CPRE09A-D

RECORDING DURATION: 38 min 28 sec

RECORDING DATE: 16.10.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: circa 45

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 14

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Croatian; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Ireland); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Persian/Farsi; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

NS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Australia); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Persian/Farsi; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Hebrew; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish (Finland); ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Hungarian; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Hebrew; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> and there ha- there is a little bit difference in the a different kind of programme as you got but er anyway we have three speakers today and er these er papers are very interesting ways connected together in my opinion we hear er first erm , you could please introduce a little bit more yourself and about your academic work can you come over here to introduce i have not got your (xx) information please but anyway first we we listen i introduce all of them er the papers here so erm <NAME NS7> women world and empire the internationalisms in australian national councils of women from 1899 to 1919 school of historical studies monash university and the second one we have erm is mhm sorry if i don't know how to pronounce this n- your name <NAME S2> european citizenship from g- gender perspective jean monnet chair for european public law faculty faculty of law university of zagreb and third paper is erm erm . (xx) <NAME S4> faculty of law university of helsinki catholic family values instead of equality contemporary polish politics envisioning the role of women analysis in the light of polish law and international obligations for poland and perspectives of all er all dimensions of citizenship local national and international er are presented in these papers it is very good because they are in dialogue with each other and er in interesting and multidimensional ways so please welcome </S1>
<NS7> thank you </NS7>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION by NS7, NOT TRANSCRIBED>


<PRESENTATION CPRE09A by S2>

<APPLAUSE>
<S1> thank you very much for very interesting presentation i think we might you have made might have many questions about it this was very important question about this european citizenship and how it's (xx) in especially on gender perspective how to (xx) (toward from sex in politics toward) gender and also this context of croatia although you say it's a little bit depressing <S2> [@yeah@] </S2> [now but you never know about the future] as a historian i might say so </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [okay let's be optimistic @@] </S2>
<S1> so please </S1>
<S4> erm i have a question concerning these er rules which are b- @bound to be ignored@ as you say is it because of some conservative models in the society does this influence [the judgements] </S4>
<S2> [yes definitely] mhm yeah definitely conservative models and er as i said erm communist heritage left er er big consequences and big influence of on creation of the policy on human rights and er gender equality so </S2>
<S4> mhm-hm is it related to religion anymore </S4>
<S2> er i well @@ i'm not religious <S4> mhm </S4> so i don't want to be i don't know </S2>
<S3> just [(xx)] </S3>
<S2> [er i wanna be] neutral @but@ i think that er er yes it has a very big impact <S4> mhm </S4> on public opinion as well and personal private opinion </S2>
<NS5> er could i just state maybe in a more slightly optimistic front erm looking at the irish example because when ireland joined the E- the EEC as it was in those days in 1973 it was in a situation where it had to do a lot of catching up in terms of equality legislation and feminist lawyers in ireland used the european apparatus and the european er legal structures to challenge a huge amount of the laws in ireland which were then forced to change <S2> mhm-hm </S2> so i think in that way although coming into the EEC er ireland was was very very different from the ideal model what a european country should be but it caught up very very quickly through feminist lawyers particularly mary robinson who <S2> [mhm] </S2> [went on] 20 years later to become the president of ireland <S2> [i know] </S2> [the first] female president she was instrumental in using those er EU processes to challenge and to force the irish legislation to change and i don't think it would have changed so quickly otherwise so perhaps there is a an optimistic scenario there as well </NS5>
<S2> so you think that there there could be another mary robinson in [@croatia@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS5> [maybe this (xx) is worldwide] </NS5>
<S2> yeah well er there is er one thing i forgot to mention , there is a difference in the conditions er for the membership in the european union er after the 1991 er after the meeting in copenhagen er the european union set up the new set of conditions for the countries for applying for the membership such as er human rights er er political issues et cetera so erm i think that the countries before the nine- who joined the european union er before the nine- 1991 er well that is my impression er they shouldn't er they're not they were not obliged to follow these er conditions on er er equality policy and human rights i don't know er but er after 1991 european union er put a strong pressure on er new european countries so er that's why i think that er without these er preconditions w- er w- we wouldn't create gender equality act because erm in 2003 er the leading party was the social democratic party in croatia and only because of their will we brought that act otherwise </S2>
<P:07>
<S3> i have a question about how you relate to (CIDO convention) will you make a shadow reform to <S2> [yes mhm-hm yes] </S2> [to go to new york and] er is it er widely distributed can you distribute it in to other european women </S3>
<S2> er i think it is published on the erm UNIFEM website united nation development fund [for women] </S2>
<S3> [because] networking in these questions is dynamite you <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [if you] see the problems [er er you can get to the] </S3>
<S2> [mhm yes and er] our women is also er sitting in the com- (CIDO) committee </S2>
<S3> oh you have a [representative in (CIDO) yeah] </S3>
<S2> [yes we have a representative] </S2>
<S3> so you have all possibilities of [influencing] </S3>
<S2> [yes yes] yes yes </S2>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S6> <COUGH> you very much focused er on the awareness side through a legal perspective of the lack of desire among for example women to know more about this equality issue er what about the political structure how much you see the political institution in croatia is an impediment or vice versa is it force of s- because this procedure requires other than legal acts and programmes <S2> [of course] </S2> [it requires] civil institutions that needs to establish and it takes of course of time how you see the political instit- er institution now in croatia as an impediment or as a force behind this this movement </S6>
<S2> er i see it as a force and er there is yes thank you for this question another problem is there is a lack of cooperation between the government and the NGOs so civil sector is pretty ignored in the process of er monitoring and evaluation so that is one of the problem and there is a really strong political will against erm erm promotion of equality er rights at the highest level so er because i don't know maybe we are still not ready for that or i can't explain that it's really difficult to understand for me i'm young @but@ i don't really understand why it's so er difficult </S2>
<NS7> can i ask about the relationship between human rights and women's rights erm , erm first of all do you does your university teach a programme of human rights law [now no-] </NS7>
<S2> [unfortunately] not </S2>
<NS7> not that either <S2> [@@] </S2> [@@ so] be- be- because sometimes th- the human rights can be a proxy for the others you know i [mean y- yes] <S2> [of course] yes yes </S2> but but is it also possible that the human rights situation is so muddled by the ethnicities issue that that's even worse than @women's rights@ er i don't know is er er is is there is there a legal attempt to separate erm human rights and women's rights i mean that is is there an attempt to do that legally or </NS7>
<S2> well in terms of legislation er we don't have er like a unique piece of legis- antidiscrimination <NS7> [okay okay] </NS7> [legislation] so we have constitutional law on protection of ethnic minorities <NS7> yes  </NS7> and the gender equality [law so] </S2>
<NS7> [okay okay] so there is [no place yeah] </NS7>
<S2> [and they're not in] accordance which o- in accordance with [each other] </S2>
<NS7> [yeah] thank you @@ </NS7>
<S2> that is also one of the problem @@ </S2>
<S1> thank you <NAME S2> <S2> okay </S2> yeah yeah </S1>
<APPLAUSE>
<CHANGE OF VENUE>
<S8> and we are starting now the session or or workshop of women in politics , p- politics my name is <NAME S8> and i'm an i am a professor here in university of tampere and my special fields are wo- women's organisations and child welfare organisations and er we have here this afternoon three speakers as miss <NAME> has not entered she has not regist- registered in the , at at all we don't know where she is , and er then we have a little another change because er <NAME S9> and <NAME S6> have asked that they would er rather speak in the order that <NAME S9> speaks first because she has a different kind of er approach and then <NAME S6> and after that <NAME S11> from finland and as we are so few here could it be possible that we all say our names in the beginning and where we come from , yeah please </S8>
<PARTICIPANTS INTRODUCING THEMSELVES ERASED>
<S8> okay so i would like to welcome you all here i- for this afternoon session and as we have er two hours er no ac- excuse [me] <S6> [one] hour </S6> an hour hour and a half i was just thinking each of you would have about 20 minutes' talk and then we will have a discussion l- later and i give a three minutes before three minutes @i give a sign@ sign so and then first i would like to introduce <NAME S9> who speaks on women and politics in iran and she's from the centre for women's studies in the university of tehran so [please] </S8>
<S9> [thank] you </S9>

<PRESENTATION CPRE09B by S9>

<APPLAUSE>
<S8> thank you very much and now we go straight to mr . mr </S8>
<S6> <NAME S6> </S6>
<S8> <NAME S6> @sorry@ </S8>
<S6> er should we have questions and answer later yeah </S6>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S9> okay thank you (xx) </S9>

<PRESENTATION CPRE09C by S6>

<APPLAUSE>
<S8> i think we should now take about 12 minutes to discuss these two papers because they are so interconnected and then the ca- the case that mrs <NAME S11> is is is going to give us is so di- is so different so erm </S8>
<S4> is the constitutional opposition (xx) </S4>
<S6> sorry </S6>
<S4> (does the) constitutional opposition (xx) </S4>
<S6> in in constitution it argues that the official religion is islam but three other religion judaism christianity and zoroastrian are respected with secured seats in the parliament </S6>
<S8> erm as your women have such a high er percentage of illiteracy how is the s- situation with men can they all read and </S8>
<S9> it's er er well erm compared to men i can look at the figures and tell you exactly what's the situation for men <COUGH> . for example in 1976 when 55 per cent women er were literate mhm it doesn't it doesn't say for mhm er in 1986 while 65 per cent of urban women were literate <S8> yeah </S8> 80 per cent were er 80 per cent of urban men were literate and er in er rural areas er while in 1986 only 36 per cent of rural women were literate 60 per cent of rural men were literate er well er the important point is that it shows that 110 per cent increase in the literacy rate of rural women in 1976 to 1986 can be compared with the 37.5 per cent gain for men then erm it's very noticeable mhm for women who have succeeded to er i- improve their <S8> [yes] </S8> [education] abilities </S9>
<S10> what is what is the effect of lowering the marriage age for women what is the women NGOs and er two questions is can women choose their partner or the family choose for them who to marry and what is the effect of lowering the age of er marriage for women </S10>
<S9> in urban areas er it is mostly girls who decide for themselves and it's a free choice in iran and mhm er you know mhm er after culture is changing erm everything er affects is affected by the culture and one of them has been the choice of er selecting a husband er which is very popular in er urban areas in which girls decide to whom they gonna be married but in rural areas as you know the traditions still exist and er partly they leave it with the girls but in reality most of the families and the father and mother they decide for the girls the effect of lowering the marriage age er well erm it actually the government encouraged people to marry earl- in early age and it mhm er resulted to have a high population growth rate after ten years but then erm what in reality happens in iran is that when they notice something is wrong or they have to change their policy they change it er no matter what for example er after lowering the age of marriage er for girls from 15 to 13 then they raised the marriage age to 15 after a while er </S9>
<S10> so the marriage age now is 15 </S10>
<S9> is 15 yes and erm under the age of 15 it's illegal to have er to have marriage </S9>
<S8> (xx) </S8>
<S11> what is the marital status of er female politicians are they married unmarried or widows </S11>
<S6> er the the what i have i believe </S6>
<S10> the PhD ones [and the doctors] </S10>
<S6> [yeah the @doctor@] @okay@ </S6>
<S10> are they married </S10>
<S6> yeah the doctoral ones in the latest parliaments which i have it's er it's interesting that still they're less in technical fields PhD in philosophy PhD in theology PhD in international law PhD in political science BA in visual communication MA in psychology er one (xx) PhD in planning and managing PhD in sociology PhD in philosophy two of them er single and the rest married , but i think overall in post-revolutionary it's almost er overwhelming married er erm females </S6>
<S8> (questions) </S8>
<S4> er can women (be a member to the) council of guardians </S4>
<S6> sorry </S6>
<S4> can women be members of the council of guardians </S4>
<S6> can [women] </S6>
<S4> [can women] be </S4>
<S6> okay er the there is no restriction in the constitution under religious (xx) be- because the the the religious leader appoints the religious members of the council of guardians in the constitution there is no restriction on this it says it should be (xx) and by religion a woman can be (xx) but up to now we haven't had a case to to have on the legal side it is a kind of semi-election within the judiciary the the the association of lawyers involved there is no restriction but until now we haven't had any legal member of the council of guardians yes </S6>
<S9> erm i would like to add something because on presidency for women unfortunately however in the constitution in article 115 of the constitution it refers to mhm <FOREIGN> (rajul) </FOREIGN> mhm er er mhm a word which means er which can be er attributed to men and women unfortunately they interpret it in a way that no female can be er president and there have been lots of arguments in the erm majlis and also in the newspapers and in public but they haven't solved the problem yet and no women er can be candidate for presidency </S9>
<S6> in majlis six there was in majlis there was an effort by female (xx) to clarify this that this word arabic word <FOREIGN> (rajul) </FOREIGN> means a well-known not because it has both interpretation not male er nominee but the council of guardians rejected it </S6>
<S4> mhm </S4>
<S8> do you have women in in in the foreign service <S6> [yes] </S6> [like] di- diplomats yeah </S8>
<S6> yeah yeah we do have er women in foreign service but er not to the ambassadorial level yet but we have general directors within the foreign service we have a few deputy ministers in in it's almost a growing trend but there was a backlash in the new government which we should wait and see what happens </S6>
<S8> mhm <NAME S3> did you want to ask [(xx)] </S8>
<S3> [yes this] er (xx) er we are going to have visit in november of er <NAME> from morocco who is in the university of marrakech i understand she is one er the f- one of the first women to interpret islamic law er it's a really pity that the moroccan participant is not here but i understand she would have this type of status then in morocco in islamic system </S3>
<S6> i- i- it does actually in iran the first council of ec- expertise which drafted the constitution and later because leader religious leader are being chosen by council of expertise which are directly being elected by public the characteristic of a member of council of exper- expertise er er after drafting the constitution has been (xx) because they want to choose the religious leader (they should be) the first er council of expertise we have er (xx) in iran's (parliament) </S6>
<S10> what about the dress code at the university how do do women have to follow a dre- how to dress or it's free i mean the the shah took the veil out <S9> yeah  </S9> and then khomeini put the veil in what's the situation today can you dress anyway you want <S9> er well er </S9> if you're a muslim it's not allowed </S10>
<S9> i know mhm well er it was a forceful veiling but at the in the first decade of the revolution it was a bit hard and er it was a very a s- strict dr- dress coding but nowadays it's erm it depends on you how you gonna er choose your dress er as long as er it covers your body and partly covers your hair and even with having makeup it doesn't make any difficulty still it it does exist but it's not er strict (one) </S9>
<S10> so you cannot dress the way you want <S9> er </S9> that (should) do not get do you get punished if you take your headscarf out </S10>
<S9> er it's it's illegal </S9>
<S10> [it's illegal it's still illegal] </S10>
<S9> [if you if if if] you go out without the scarf but er mhm er for example erm you can erm call it a kind of mhm maybe in a joking way a napkin for some women because er </S9>
<S10> [it's so small] </S10>
<S9> [it's it's] it's very er small and er it's not very difficult even for the f- foreigners when they visit iran they can show they can see it's very loose </S9>
<S6> but still the dress code is on </S6>
<S10> [it is on it's illegal to dress the way you want] </S10>
<S9> [is is i- it is it is] it is it is </S9>
<S10> and university students women [women the- they follow] </S10>
<S9> [it's it's it's the same] it's the same </S9>
<S10> and they don't challenge it like in the parliament or in the majlis (xx) </S10>
<S6> in the sixth parliament there were some argument i actually this is an issue which has been going on even within the religious circles because this this sixth parliament one of the important issue during khatami era was that even within the religious circles a reformist religious body was established (itself) then there is an argument even within religious circle that er dress code should not be imposed on public it's a matter of choice but there should be a minimal er social values that everyone should respect er which exist everywhere you cannot go out naked in in western world as well there is there is a minimal social (form) but they were but they were unsuccessful partially not because of the religious issue itself because of the political affiliation during president khatami the main thing becomes a er erm er a er what i c- what what i can call it a mhm political struggle in gaining power conservatives understood if khatami will succeed that's end of their era then they did all their best to confront his reform policies political reform policies and within the reformist religious body their reform policies and they succeeded actually in failing president khatami's effort then this was raised and had been raised prior to ahmadinejad government but even ahmadinejad government they have shown some signs of reform as well because within conservatives or conservativism in iran there are different interpretation some are very ideologist ahmadinejad seems more of a politician rather than an ideologist he uses different ideological notion to push his populacy or popularity within the public then four months ago he raised er an issue of women's presence in stadiums er because officially it is prohibited that especially in soccer this is mainly about soccer because soccer is a very er common sport in iran and almost most of sofe- so- soccer games er are being presented by over 50,000 people in any stadium (it's very popular) er and the the soccer fans are sometime very nasty people </S6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [@in all countries@] </S8>
<S6> [and @@] and then always the religious body had argued that this is not good on the social order for female to participate that they're facing these fans president ahmadinejad a few months ago suddenly declared no it should be open why females should be (barred of) and this became a very hot issue that at the end religious figures involved succeeded to to stop but it seems that within conservativism as well er some er are politically er conservatives and some ideologically conservatives but this issue always have been a hot issue the dress code </S6>
<S9> [yeah] </S9>
<S8> [okay] thank you now now i think we have to mo- mo- move on move on and er i have to remind you that even when when i went to school we were not allowed to go in trousers and my first day in the university of helsinki as a student in 68 in the in the fall of 68 er er i was er told that i i should not er come come dressed in trousers </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [thank you] </S6>
<S8> so the this is the social (cause) because there is no l- no law that <S6> yeah </S6> i was really (xx) and i was so proud (xx) . okay now i would like to introduce to you mrs er <NAME S11> who is from the university of turku and she's doing there in in other subjects and er she has done her , working life in in the library , field and as you know the public libraries are the flagship of our educational system system system system here here we have in all communities a good public library and erm she also has written a book about the madam gebhard who she is going to talk about now , okay please the floor is yours </S8>

<PRESENTATION by S11 DELETED>

<APPLAUSE>
<S8> thank you very much and no- now we have some minutes for questions please </S8>
<S10> what do you mean when th- you say why do women emphasise home and family <S11> [yeah] </S11> [in the] 20s and 30s what do you mean by <S11> yeah </S11> emphasising </S10>
<S11> erm er there were s- many erm the main female activities in finland those days were er to organise or s- some organisations that were onl- only for women and they were erm counselling in household matters or helping in defence it was called <FOREIGN> lotta svärd </FOREIGN> was the defence organisation there were marttas and mhm mhm some other organisations for household matters and er er schooling in the household matters was emphasised and er yeah i maybe was not very clear saying that i think it is a kind of a similar phenomenon like erm that er the american black took in use that black is beautiful , that what was traditional for woman we must er rise its er [significance] </S11>
<S8> [mhm] in a way i mhm can i <S11> yeah </S11> c- can i answer to your questions the the the finnish women's organisations focused very much on domestic i- issues in the 1920s and 30s 30s and even in the 19- 1940s and i think it it was our poverty it was something that you know could done people were dying children were dying and th- and so their mo- mother mo- mo- moth- mothers and and we had these er public health pro- problems with tuberculosis and so on and everything that was done in the home was seen so soon what happens we are very practical people we are you know mhm our o- our ideology o- often kind of pushes us to do practical things and not to discuss and about these er voting res- results in the 1930s it was the (xx) er low pr- pressure of economics and it was a a <S10> depression </S10> yeah and it was a fear of right wing coup in the in in in in finland and i understand that the voters thought in their minds that now we need real men in this country in er economy and the country and and and and to save to save the de- demo- democracy and even if this lady there who says that er er that there's a revo- revolution or or a n- new thing n- new ideology and men take women with them in the in the revolution then then push them back but in none of those revolutions there is a real going back these mhm crises are always turning points and there is no return both of them were or s- women were er drawn to the public life and after the war there was a tendency to put them back in the (home) but the but but the </S8>
<S11> [yeah if if] </S11>
<S8> [it was different] different they nev- ne- er they [(xx) yeah yeah] </S8>
<S10> [all the way back (xx)] </S10>
<S8> the the world was never the same again </S8>
<S11> and that's always it's like this </S11>
<S8> yeah no we think it's it's like this fire <SS> @@ </SS> so because it er every ti- every every time you l- you you learn something from big </S8>
<S11> (and reuse it) </S11>
<S8> yeah , other questions i'm sorry i <S11> @@ </S11> . but i think that this gebhard er marriage is very er also very finnish in that way in that way that we think that our male companions and husbands are you know companions for life and er so so that there , in in the home the- the- there is a s- s- some kind of equality or agreement about life </S8>
<S11> the reality was not as good as they thought in their youth <S8> yeah yeah </S8> but [there was a i- idea] </S11>
<S8> [but but which] which one our marriages has been so rosy <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] okay any other questions if not i would like to thank you all all three of you we have learned a lot this afternoon okay <APPLAUSE> and thank you for all a- all all of you who participated here </S8>
<CHANGE OF VENUE>
<S12> welcome <COUGH> welcome everybody to this workshop now we will have it in this way that er the three paper giver presenters are presenting the papers in 20 minutes and then we have some minutes for discussions and then we continue and now we are some minutes late so we ha- we will sta- start to t- to keep up time but but we'll maybe continue continue after half past 12 for couple of minutes the first paper presenter is <NAME> <NAME> from </S12>
<S13> <NAME S13> [you say] </S13>
<S12> [<NAME S13>] yeah okay and <NAME S13> is a sociologist but she has been working very much on the history of hungarian feminism </S12>

<PRESENTATION CPRE09D by S13>

<APPLAUSE>
<S12> thank you very much for rich [pa-] </S12>
<S13> [oh] these are sorry these are meant for voting rights [but okay] </S13>
<S12> [yeah yeah] yeah we are a little bit late but that watch is too early but still i get three minutes for questions two and a half please @use it@ yeah and present yourself please </S12>
<S14> i am <NAME S14> from israel , can you say something about identities of these feminists what were their feminist identity did they just have a replica of men's thoughts of women's identity or can you actually erm point to their feminist ideology and identity </S14>
<S13> yes it's a very very interesting question because as i learned from earlier presentations about this association particularly they have a very rich material of publications and erm monthly that they published from 1907 until the 20 30s but not regularly during the war and in the when the period of the the two world wars and er i tried to interpret their as you say their discourse and identity and it turned fr- for me it turned out that it wasn't a simple suffrage movement for electoral rights but er they envisioned social reforms social reforms for which suffrage rights are just means and in this er social reform they really er followed let's say the u- utopian socialist vision of er people's participating strong civil movement education and health care system strongly supported by the state and so on these these kind of visions and as far as the criticism of sexism is concerned it's very interesting they had a very early and very fine er ana- analysis of patriarchal er patriarchal values patriarchal system patriarchal attitudes and whenever they were discussing economy political life they somehow er somehow backed it with this very fine argument of er the criticism of er patriarchy again they criticise patriarchal personal contact they said men and women had to be erm mhm in equal companionship and not one above the other so it's a very fine and very interesting er rich material that they they have er one more thing about their political identity that would er it's er important maybe concerning the the presentation as well that erm they didn't belong they didn't express er any unity with any political party because politically they were independent and within the circle of feminists you could find socialist conservatives urban intellectuals village women they had local groups all over the country and as you see they had er employed women from different social classes within their ranks so i could say it's a really unique thing to to go deeper into it and er they had beautiful writings ru- rosika schwimmer who was a journalist has wonderful er wonderful essays about women's identity they are new in fact they are very much er now one more reference to understand their identity in the british culture they refer to the new woman in the 19th century who is educated who takes part in er public affairs but er there was a hunga- hungarianised version of er the new woman who takes this public role but stays woman so it's a very interesting mixture of er of these ideas </S13>
<S12> thank you as you switch <S13> [yes] </S13> [chairs] or change chairs i will introduce the next speaker </S12>

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