<TITLE: Torus/Ester Conference: On the Scenes of Science 2
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: history of science & technology
EVENT TYPE: conference discussion
FILE ID: CDIS03B
NOTES: session includes presentation CPRE03E (CDIS03A and CPRE03A-D are part of the same conference)

RECORDING DURATION: 41 min 27 sec

RECORDING DATE: 15.11.2003

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 12

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

NS13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Czech; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S19: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S4> (xx) most er students from ESTER course and and we have on also other , other people here in the past from and i i think i have to welcome professor <NAME S7> once again to to tampere university and <NAME S7> is professor of history of technology in research department in technical university darmstadt germany he holds er a PhD from gothenburg university sweden and an MA from princeton university USA and professor <NAME S7>'s most recent publications include for example as a grammar of technology german and french diesel engineering 1920 1940 and erm , the intellectual appropriation of technology discourses of modernity 1900 1939 and this was published the by M-I-T press 1998 er with er with er co-editor andrew jameson and he has written several monographs for example ten years ago he he published a book about machines are frozen spirit the scientification of refrigeration and <SU> [<WHISPERING> we are microphoned </WHISPERING>] </SU> [brewing in the] 19th century , and it came er this book came out er with campus er verlag 1994 , so that's that i i i have found and you have sa- many other projects forthcoming projects projects maybe you you are willing to tell about those you are most welcome </S4>

<PRESENTATION CPRE03E by S7>

<APPLAUSE>
<S4> thank you very much <COUGH> <NAME S7> for this presentation excellent i think many of us has er some some links with the people who are working there but but not just in the same er framework so i think now many of us know some of the books from your lists but but i think it's very good to really to er look at and and really this was a good good paper presentation er which gave us many challenges and and new questions to ask erm i think we have few couple of minutes er time for some questions or comments er <NAME S14> from oulu </S4>
<S14> thank you <COUGH> er there is missing some comp- comparison with the idea of the a- er antique idea of city er the in in the greek and roman world the good life was possible only in city and that is why er the city was er the centre point of the that culture and er when the the city culture disappeared our change was quite a quite a great and that that is why er i think it is , would be convenient to to have some one paper one one writing er article about antique idea of city it is , yes thank you </S14>
<S4> yes thank you , do you like to <S7> yeah well  </S7> are you including all periods @@ </S4>
<S7> no not really er it's <COUGH> it's a the tensions from europe has been explicitly set up to study the 20th century so er we dared now to go back till till about eight and the mid-19th because so many urban structures were set in the late 19th century in most european countries but , i mean there's a usually the german mediaeval town er of course you're right that it's that i i i have a feeling er that would we would have work enough work to do with the last (xx) </S7>
<S4> but this concept of a city is very <S7> [yeah] </S7> [important] (for us all for) for all periods and , maybe EU is interested in the future also to (xx) little bit to this er area . but there are lot of research done on on also ancient city and and and still big int- mhm huge interest in mediaeval towns and and and er ancient towns any other questions or comments <NAME NS13> [(xx)] </S4>
<NS13> [yes] i in terms of our tensions group , there are a couple of things in in some sense the whole tensions project was an attempt to recreate the common to create a common european history with the nation state left out erm , i'm not sure exactly how feasible that is although i'm sure (we) have tried er the other thing , that is striking about our group and several of the others that i've worked at is that , in general britain which has a huge scholarly establishment yet i don't see very many british scholars participating so i guess that it's not surprising that they should be insular , are these your impressions also er </NS13>
<S7> well <COUGH> yeah no no i mean there's a lot of france is is is also even more striking only frenchmen there are in this group is (naille) , i've no re- really good explanation on the frenchmen there's sometimes the lang- the language problem which </S7>
<NS13> oh you need not have problems with french scholars i mean that's we have several participating </NS13>
<S7> well , i don't know </S7>
<NS13> well they may be more interested in mobility </NS13>
<S7> yeah </S7>
<S4> mhm mhm yes first <NAME S11> and then pro- professor <NAME> </S4>
<S11> yeah i was also <SIC> striked </SIC> by the names (xx) <COUGH> which er appeared here er (xx) approached er your copy from er er swedish (xx) probably it's the same situation in other countries (xx) what we from our point of view <COUGH> which is er (xx) urban historian's , [(xx)] </S11>
<S7> [peter schott] peter schott was there </S7>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<S4> [(and that other part) i have heard that you you were there yes] </S4>
<S7> and ar- and aaron batte was also he had he won't be contributing to this book but i think that </S7>
<NS13> (xx) <S7> [uh-huh] </S7> [(xx)] association (xx) </NS13>
<S4> mhm [mhm mhm] </S4>
<S11> [good point] on the eccentric england </S11>
<S7> no no no but i mean it's it's quite no no it's it's it's true and i know that it's a a a drawback that that er that the way that we have been conceiving it is in a way to , (xx) it's a way to ref- reform history of technology try to make the history of technology address to new topics there has been (new quite direct ) (xx) this have been done in a in a , more top-down because it should have been should have been more more of the sort of established urban historians i have quite quite , er quite intentionally used the kind of bottom-up process only trying to involve people who whom i know or people whom i have gotten to know at conferences or people who others has have suggested because i think that the goal is to to to write the book really need people who are devo- devoted and it would only erm figure heads and i i was for example in the european the the conference of the european association of urban history in berlin 2000 when this idea first first started and er to to be honest i maybe it was just bad luck but i found that there were very few people who who addressed the kinds of topics that er i wanted to be that included , i did a i made a certain effort and also had a couple of couple of meetings or informal speak talks with people at the conference which and er did at that point in time it really seemed difficult , but i hope now after these this work it can be for a second phase easier </S7>
<S11> (xx) the topics on these conferences did you have (xx) <S7> [yeah] </S7> [proposals] <S7> [yeah yeah] </S7> <S4> [mhm] </S4> [have come come] @into@ into a (xx) to do </S11>
<S4> isn't i mean there really there were so many sessions that re- real it was impossible to follow all these new ideas and we we all were there as or we have been in each each i have been since the first conference with <NAME> in participating in these european conferences urban history conferences so at last in singapore so now i think it's just but (awkward) that we can @join@ and i my question concerns how we can join to this network and what what other what what is there in budapest which is worth for coming </S4>
<S7> well the the programme hasn't been in set set yet but the central con- concern now is how to continue in the next <S4> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S4> [phase because] the the first phase is of the whole project not only the this group is sort of coming to an end with this conference the money that we received from the european science foundation er has by that time been been used up and there are now se- several o- one effort is to to write a an application for the <S4> [mhm-hm] </S4> [sixth] framework pro- programme <S4> mhm </S4> another is to to try to to make mhm an application for the european science foundation er in their so-called programme <S4> mhm-hm </S4> programme and that er tha- that that's for primarily ne- networking but so er i think that after budapest we will see <S4> mhm-hm </S4> or in budapest we we will see that (xx) are possible but i mean definitely sort of an invitation from the historians of technology to , in this case urban historians to try to associate close (locally) in the large (xx) correct that it has has been two dif- about two different i think two different <S4> mhm </S4> scholarly communities and and erm i haven't i wasn't able look to very many from the other side i i don't i i hope it would [continue] </S7>
<S4> [mhm] mhm-hm [but] </S4>
<NS13> [i mean] yeah but in areas where , australian networks and (xx) was established , this works a whole lot better for example there's no internas- or wasn't until last week an international association for mobility and transport studies but we are now setting one up the net that's a great a direct outgrowth , of the tensions project and , we're also working on a collection of essays to be published which will try to move the field beyond the very traditional railway studies that dominated now and it looks like we've succeeded in altering the erm publication policies of , i have it here , the journal of transport history which is the top journal in the field now er mobility history or transport history which ever you prefer is a much less well developed field than urban history with with many fewer linkages so that uh i think the tensions project has probably been much richer for us in terms of intellectual development (primarily) probably that it's been for er urban historians just because there are fewer of us and we haven't been linked very well </NS13>
<S4> and then <NAME S15> </S4>
<S15> (xx) how did you react on (xx) because a few , few more months ago erm er the national history of science when the- there are several projects i know exactly about two of them which are er on the new right in national histories above all er from thinking about how national histories are constructed <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [they're] going further these days and i think they're going er (xx) and it's the diplomatic approach and er the national aspect er is er not necessarily well at least other projects er are in er problematic and er supernational that that (it's regarded as) a national divide with national (profits) and then on problem of absence of big large countries i we have prese- er participated in er lecture or a cour- of history departments of european universities it was er socrates erasmus network which er unite 52 universities and urban historians are (xx) er which i know i'm meeting on urban conferences some of them and what's the problem here also <SIGH> united kingdom and france is very absent or non-active er er germany also large countries somehow (which create) problems what well i don't want to go @into it i i@ there's no activity on mediterranean countries and er middle sized (xx) is very active and scandinavian countries and central european some central european </S15>
<NS13> an an outsider's perspective of this is that first of all the british are very insular which is hardly surprising by definition they're insular but er , also there is much more flexibility in places where the university structures are relatively new so that in in britain and germany are very old universities that've been very well established it's the modern universities for a century or more it's very hard to break out of those institutional structures but it is much easier at universities that are relatively recently established erm the spanish university establishment for example was dreadful 50 or 60 years ago and they now (have) a first rate modern university system but ideas and patterns aren't very well established in that system yet so they are likely to be much more open to something like this than people who work in traditional institutions of science does that make sense </NS13>
<S15> yeah <NS13> (xx) </NS13> one explanation possible [@@] </S15>
<S4> [thank you] once more and we all come to budapest @@ okay er er , i hope all the best for your project i er now we have a next speaker er but before that take please take coffee , and then we have time yes one hour one hour </S4>
<TRACK CHANGE>
<S4> everyone is now satisfied with coffee so let's continue i have er i have a great honour and pleasure introduce , professor <NAME NS13> er who already yesterday gave us excellent lecture as as <NAME> so we have used efficiently @@ erm their expertise during these days er professor <NAME NS13> comes from north eastern university boston boston and er originally he has been studying er mhm he has done his PhD at the city college of new york professor <NAME NS13> is really specialist in in united states urban and social history and he has written extensively about automobiles 1997 the automobile chronology and then now the asphalt path american cities and the automobile 1994 which is really a very very known and appreciated book , er his current research deals with the horse as those who were in yesterday er in paavo koli's erm auditorium heard er course in the 19th century american cities , he's also editor er of the internet based discussion group H-urban and er he ha- he has been i think key erm erm erm are you even made [er er er er] </S4>
<NS13> [i have an article on this] </NS13>
<S4> [yes] okay so er he's active in this journal journal of transport history maybe we if you can leave it possibly [in here] </S4>
<NS13> [yes of course] </NS13>
<S4> [yes yes] , so and today we are going to hear er presentation on urban history in the united states </S4>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION by NS13, NOT TRANSCRIBED>

<S16> yeah i mean how do you see it yourself that it's is urban history a methodology or is it just a viewpoint or approach or because what is lacking from your survey is a <NS13> mhm </NS13> is a study on on urban history [methods] </S16>
<NS13> [well] it it seems to me that there are two kinds of urban historians and they tend to talk , past each other uh one set writes about the container , that is to say about the physical structure of cities about the infrastructure about the buildings , geographical stu- studies of how the city spreads and so on and the others write about what is contained they write about particular ethnic and racial groups within cities , and their conflicts and the attempts of the political system to resolve them , so that er , but there's no one inherent method , the both groups use and both of them are quite likely , to borrow their methodology , in other places er , for example the pennies that <NAME> was showing earlier this morning some of the background in women studies use feminist methodology , when analysing very differently than i would because when i looked at them because i've spent most of my time writing about transportation's infrastructure the physical nature of the streets , the first thing i looked up was the shape of the streets and the curb stones the fact that (woman) was standing on on a traffic island alright now the problem , i think with urban history is that , and and here what's (xx) what we say as practised in in north america (xx) i hope you guys do it better , alright , is , that there is , there's really no common methodology i mean urban history as it is practised and i think as these lists show , is little more than a description of something that has happened in the city , alright , which hardly is a rigorous analytic approach yes </NS13>
<S17> that isn't logical when you look at that whether has been founded this urban history as science so in this is a new science (possible) and second of all when you look at at the british in the field of history the <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [(xx)] history that have happened after the 80s i mean it's quite logical that these new er branches like urban history try this still er be looking for methodology or for maybe er leading figure since there has never been such in the since it's so young practise so young analysis don't you think so i mean it's </S17>
<NS13> it's always nice to hear from an optimist <SS> @@ </SS> , alright but er , new fields should should change quite rapidly and the fact that the books that we are most likely to use are respectively 40 years old and 25 years old </NS13>
<S17> yeah [i do] </S17>
<NS13> [su- suggest] that that we're not advancing at at least in terms of of methodology and theory the way a new discipline should be now some of this . some of this may be because american historians historically have been sceptical about theory and for that matter about methodology so this may well be an american thing yes </NS13>
<S18> er excellent but isn't it also a strength for urban history that it isn't so tied to a certain methodology and also at least in europe i think it's very truly er interdisciplinary <SU> yeah </SU> , field and and and not many academic fields are are so interdisciplinary as the urban history </S18>
<NS13> so multi-disciplinary is a discipline okay i i'm i'm willing to go along with that , do you think this is a fair reading of europe also <NAME S7> </NS13>
<S7> yes (part of it) <SS> @@ </SS> <NAME> <S4> mhm-hm </S4> i mean </S7>
<S11> i think it's er er specially (xx) 64 er as long as as history has existed but but er er i mean in the (northern) european countries er er it's not a special er discipline it's a part of of a history in general and er er there's a lot of theories and methods within urban history but er to some extent (at least) they are the same as er the theories and methods of history (xx) so er of course you can perhaps point out some areas er there they talk about specific urban theories er (qvist anders) er thinking about er urban , (european) developments er in the how how the systems are in general (xx) roots but we all of course know the important book @(xx)@ which is a (xx) also these american the chicago school the er theories about the structure of of the the urban space or <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [(xx)] configuration of of the the er and theories about this er tha- that topic and er we talked yesterday about (xx) as a way of life on the suburb and it's not the way of life and the confirmation that er er type of of of a false so er , i think we can talk about s- s- some areas of study , the urban dimension is er very important <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [or or] er , content of of the (xx) in many (xx) have the same field as in history of of (xx) in the i i made er some brochure for conference in in norway er er an investigation regarding what was important most about the continent of the the european (geography) urban history and i divided it in topics (xx) and er as i expected one of the most er striking result was that er development of topics it followed the general trend within history i had a time perspective of so er in around the 1970s 80s (they had a) switch from social labour history <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> to general history and (xx) history cultural history and (xx) and that is also a trend in in history in general </S11>
<NS13> well i- it's my impression also one of the big differences in in , european ur- urban history is of course the time span studied is much longer <S11> yes </S11> and that that's not just because the time span is is in fact longer , because er , boston is for practical purposes an older city , than helsinki yet correct me if i'm wrong i will bet that there are more books written about helsinki in the 18th century than boston in the 18th century </NS13>
<S4> because er because helsinki was capital and capitals alwe- always been important </S4>
<NS13> not washington DC </NS13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S4> [no not] not washington because yeah it was created yes i think [not] </S4>
<NS13> [okay] ah yeah alright [washington's an exception] </NS13>
<S4> [i think it it's again] it's que- question of scale er helsinki is in finland er important but of course there are so many competing towns and and er cities in the ue- US and the the state structure is also va- very important </S4>
<NS13> well the- there are other examples of this kind of thing in in italy for example other than for political reasons mil- milan is a more important place than rome is that that a fair statement </NS13>
<SU> yeah , it's it milan is more </SU>
<NS13> so that er , but probably since 1850s since they began industrialisation in italy perhaps even earlier </NS13>
<S4> oh during 18th century it was n- nep- napoli neapoli er most people [(xx)] </S4>
<NS13> [naples was an important city in the world in the 18th century] </NS13>
<S4> [yes yes yes yes yes] </S4>
<NS13> yeah </NS13>
<S4> so it (calls) a hierarchy of of towns @@ </S4>
<NS13> well the- there's an interesting book to be written about how naples blew it <S4> mhm-hm </S4> , from being yeah the biggest and wealthiest city in the world , to one that it is today which is not the biggest and wealthiest city in the world <SS> @@ </SS> i'm tempted to do many studies of growth and that's a story of declension </NS13>
<S4> mhm-hm , but i would like to add one small point er that what is now general i think that can be found in in in all in the whole history field is that more and more research are done er or methods are how to say erm are followed er erm li- er it's coming from anthropology ethnology and and literary literary sciences then <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [then from] those hard sciences we used to use me- er statisctic statistics and and and and sociology okay sociology is still how to say much used for empirical frameworks but but more on or more and more are people people are mo- mm- er more interested in narratives today than than really facts <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [and they] don't think on <NS13> [representations] </NS13> [reliability] they re- don't think on reliability they don't think on validity they just take one example and then write stories so this is i think very new <SIC> phenoment </SIC> </S4>
<NS13> alright the the the new cultural history <S4> yes </S4> has been very important (xx) but in in in terms of the traditional <S4> [mhm mhm mhm] </S4> [kinds of er narrative history] , er and and this may be another limitation of american urban history er a lot of the recent work it i- is on new topics using traditional methodology er , i would say the best urban ethnography of the last 20 years is a book by george chauncey gay new york which is a study of the gay community in new york from roughly 1890 to 1940 now , what is striking about this book is that you can find anything out about that community , because it's an underground community that no-one thought everyone told him that he was crazy when he started the project because there are no records , well it turns out that there are records if you're clever enough about how to find them and use them <S4> mhm-hm </S4> , and so there are that's what i use with my students just because it's it's real good on [how you] <S4> [mhm mhm] mhm-hm </S4> you dig information out of out of archives ah environmental history you know things like martin melosi's book tend to pers- ah that's an entirely new field that is increasingly used by urbanists is working at the environment but there they are (xx) concerned with representation at all </NS13>
<P:08>
<S4> but then if you historians are trying to make their own theories that's i think very very well thing because that's that's a way into go forward just just you create something <NS13> oh </NS13> which is wa- widely used </S4>
<NS13> history as a profession and i think especially in north america is sceptical of theory </NS13>
<S4> @@ </S4>
<SU> @@ </SU>
<NS13> well i think that's because we we've seen too many sociologist (xx) too many fa- false paths , perhaps i'm being cynical i have been accused of that </NS13>
<S11> but but the question you used about is there an urban history at all a discipline where (xx) many years ago castells started the discussion about is there an urban sociology because er i began being (xx) article it was first published (xx) and this er and that was a rather complicated article to to read and understand er but er it (benefited) the discussion er thinking about history or urban history th- i (xx) i am also because er most urban history research you mention things that have happened in what we call cities <NS13> mhm-hm </NS13> that er er one aspect could could perhaps take up the er field of urban history is there a relationship between a man and the (about) how er me- er how men (probably) use their (guilt) <NS13> [mhm-hm] </NS13> [in cities] and are there er spaces left and the rela- relationships how places have affected er man er something (xx) @saw one yesterday@ </S11>
<NS13> eric lempard who taught me in wisconsin used to define it as the the study of very dense places , and their relationships over time now that was derived from economic history <S11> mhm </S11> but what much of this literature happens is what happens , when you put a whole lot of people very close together so they wind up rubbing against each other er they try to design for example environments and behaviours that limit the the rubbing effect alright er american families love to do there are books by sociologists about the cocoon effect in the united states where the americans like to retreat to their homes put on their their televisions and ignore the rest of the world and there there's very little history of public life of public meeting er (town) visiting cafe visiting much less common in the US than anywhere else although that's another re- good comparative study will be useful why aren't there really any american cafes , er you find american pubs but only , you can find american cafes you can find american pubs but only in a very limited number of communities , er , that's an example probably of american exceptionalism although we need to find out if that exception really exists because there there is an image of pubs and cafes and the a number of people who use them but may not conform to the reality at all but er , that's something that is clearly driven by (xx) and environmental issues , are also urban in (xx) car ownership is widely spread in northern america but the environmental problems in the form of air pollution , are most severely felt in mexico city and los angeles because both turn out to be horrible places to locate cities , er , both because they trap air and both of them are earth quake prone but that that's a different er issue as well but still that's that's one consequence of urbanisation you inevitably wind up pollution because (xx) heavy disposal of of waste , is an obvious one uh pure water , and so on er any anything else , all these (hang-uppers) </NS13>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> students don't you have any questions everyone seems very happy so i think this was excellent lecture to finish this day and this whole <NS13> [thank you] </NS13> [seminar so] i think we give applauses to (xx) <APPLAUSE> (xx) to have a discussion so if thank you very much <SU> [er is it possible to get] </SU> [for your contribution] on all levels , <SU> [is it mhm mhm] </SU> [so ladies and] ladies and gentlemen you have something </S4>
<SU> er yeah i was just wondering if it's possible to get the list of literature copied [because] </SU>
<S10> [yeah] </S10>
<S4> [yes yes] </S4>
<S10> [yeah] </S10>
<SU> [okay] </SU>
<S4> [now] i have one and you have [one] </S4>
<SU> [alright] </SU>
<S4> okay and i i would like to inform you about this er questionnaires for ESTER students did you fill these because i'm going to gather these today if you didn't fill we can maybe meet , meet after after walk then i can gather those and then i send this all to (xx) because they wanted to fill these (these) (xx) practises so basically it's n- necessary for me to have these and and and you otherwise you forget those so it's better that i collect these and i send these for evaluation so they can develop the programme in the future so i i would like to conclude this session and really er welcome you all to have a lunch downstairs in minerva and then we are going to to have a walk at erm at one o'clock <SU>  yes </SU> for those who are willing to er to come with er sari er and his hus- her husband they are going to to ha- er to lead you a wa- mhm the walking tour and then er you are er we all meet in at at restaurant plevna and have some er er some meal there and then our our italian , students are going to leave but all others are going to stay until tomorrow and our teachers i will come to participate to this programme as well so i thank all of you and and and hope that that er that er we we can have a dinner er lunch first here and then we meet in plevna er it it will be approximately i think four o'clock in plevna but sari is going to inform me i i join then (of course) but who of you are going to have this er tour erm sari is coming here after the lunch <SU> [the walking tour alright] </SU> [and then later] <S10> [walking tour yeah] </S10> [are you coming] <SU> yeah </SU> so who is coming to the walking tour so ESTER students all ESTER st- mhm you don't come oh are you leaving now </S4>
<S19> no i'm [(xx)] </S19>
<SS> [(xx) @@] </SS>
<SU> [he's walking already] </SU>
<S4> (xx) so you don't [(come)] </S4>
<S10> [but you're] going to plevna </S10>
<S4> yes but you <S19> [(xx)] </S19> [you then yes] , yes we have to discuss i we all gather and we have precise time for for for meeting in plevna it should be i think approximately four o'clock i don't know wha- what is programme of professor <NAME S7> can you [stay] </S4>
<S7> [no] no i'll [(xx)] </S7>
<S4> [okay] okay so er but professor <NAME> and <NAME> are coming and and and you too so there there are three missing of our students <SU> mhm </SU> <SU> [mhm] </SU> [and] one of them </S4>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<SU> [i'm not] i'm not coming [i've walked enough in the this city] </SU>
<S4> [you are not you are not coming] <SS> [@@] </SS> [but what about others] all others are coming matti and and jussi and okay great marvellous and then from teachers <NAME> and <NAME> and what about professor <NAME NS13> after our lunch are you leaving with [<NAME> or] </S4>
<NS13> [are we ready to go] </NS13>
<S4> are are you coming with us or </S4>
<S3> it depends on you if you want to go around the (xx) area i will follow you but if you want to go to helsinki i- i we will leave straight after the lunch </S3>
<NS13> ah okay that's fine i i checked out of the hotel and we just have to stop by and pick up my suitcase </NS13>
<S4> mhm-hm </S4>
<S3> okay </S3>
<S4> okay </S4>
<S7> are you are you driving to helsinki <S3> yeah </S3> can i also join you </S7>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S4> yes so we all go now first to lunch </S4>
<S16> was there copies (xx) because everyone didn't get the [(copy)] </S16>
<S10> [i will] make the copies er and and is there anyone missing lunch tickets everyone has who okay one , two , three four five okay </S10>
