<TITLE: Perspectives on Citizenship and Education
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: behavioural sciences
DISCIPLINE: education
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD280
NOTES: seminar includes presentations USEMP13A-B (ULEC210 and ULECD140 are part of the same course)

RECORDING DURATION: 81 min 5 sec

RECORDING DATE: 25.4.2007

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 11

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 9

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Switzerland); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> contact me afterwards after the deadline which is i think 18th er of may if i remember correctly it's friday 18th of may so maybe er within er one week or within two weeks er from that if you would like to have some kind of personal discussion concerning your essay you you can contact me and otherwise erm you'll just get a mark for the course and you can you can l- er find it then in this er online er register , so er if some of you are are here still at the end of may er we could also meet up informally , and i also i haven't prepared any kind of erm evaluation paper but if you remember i sent you an e-mail some weeks ago which had an address of the international school of social sciences er where is this kind of online evaluation sheet so er i- it would be quite good if you could er fill in this evaluation online and then this information would go directly to the ISSS office but then they they would also erm er distribute these erm papers to me so kind of both the department of education and ISSS would know then your er opinion about the course and how it could be changed or improved erm next year for example , okay so first erm yesterday's topic , education and citizenship in ukraine and russia er you got a lot of information on two very new countries maybe for many of you i don't know how much you have studied russia or ukraine before but er if you have now some comments or questions we could start with those <P:08> if something was erm . i don't know particularly interesting or , surprising maybe or something that you would like to know more about or something that you disagree with any kind of comments or questions , if you find some similarities or differences between for example ukraine russia and the developing countries that we have talked about before or erm also er cases of er western countries how would you evaluate the development in ukraine and russia in comparison to some western countries your own country . does anything come to your mind </S1>
<P:16>
<S2> do you know of your say of of recent trends in your own country regarding citizenship education which might er coincide with the trends that we have been talking about or which conflict very much with the trends we've been talking about [perhaps] </S2>
<S5> [i] have some <S2> yes </S2> similarities but it's already in my presentation </S5>
<S2> yes <S1> mhm-hm okay </S1> perhaps we should wait with that [yes @@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yes yes] but what we mentioned al- also in the beginning that this kind of tension between erm citizenship education as active and critical thinking and citizenship education as this obedient soldier this kind of dilemma was er you know it's present in this western er s- thinking about citizenship and it is also something that we could really find in any kind of state so it is always a balance between the two , but how does it occur what kind of erm , final shape it takes in different contexts this is quite interesting and and how we could explain the this er final result how it also reflects maybe the balance of power and erm this er historical context but also er contemporary context </S1>
<P:13>
<S2> well let me er if you don't have questions to ask then i have a question to one particular er er participant here you are from switzerland right </S2>
<S6> yes i am </S6>
<S2> so , how does switzerland deal with things like er national er cohesion and er this is i- is is education fully delegated to the canton level to the substate level or are there any kind of federal programmes er er </S2>
<S6> erm well actually that's also part of my presentation so i </S6>
<S2> ah [@@] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> @you're also presenting okay@ perhaps <S1> [right] </S1> [we should er] leave it then [yeah] </S2>
<S1> [but] but maybe some kind of general er question also er because i don't know er or we don't know how much you have y- how well you are familiar with russia and and er and ukraine so er did you find the the information c- comprehensive or did it really feel like well you couldn't understand it maybe you couldn't grasp it because you are not that familiar with the context or could you really relate also to the things that we were saying yesterday </S1>
<S6> well i could <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [quite well] actually my parents are from east germany when er the the wall was still up [so] <SS> [mhm] mhm </SS> i know a little bit about education at that time <SS> mhm </SS> in eastern germany which is probably not that different from russia at least in the citizenship education <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [area or] soviet union <S1> mhm </S1> one should say [so] </S6>
<S2> [oh yes] i see yes so a very (xx) curriculum <S6> [yeah (xx)] </S6> [and (xx) erm d-] have er have your parents talked about their education have they had their full education in er eastern germany also up to say university level </S2>
<S6> erm my father had and <S2> ah [okay] </S2> [he] actually erm he chose a a subject that had least influence from the state which was theology [(because)] </S6>
<S2> [least] influence from the state oh <S6> [yeah] </S6> [theology] okay [mhm-hm] </S2>
<S6> [i think] the church was quite free to do whatever they wanted to do <S2> [mhm] </S2> [although] erm when the action it depends a little bit when the actions er from priests or people from the church became too erm much directed against the state then still they were , these were suppressed </S6>
<S2> mhm but as i found in in in erm ukraine when i checked the er the er wha- what do you call that the the the list of marks or degrees of the the father of an interpreter of mine er who had been an engineer i mean trained as an engineer so he he had followed some kind of technical kind of studies but still er there were mandatory er subjects that all students had to do also in higher education er and several er i i i i couldn't couldn't help laughing when i saw these subjects you know it's athei- was it a- atheist communism or atheist sci- science er something like leninist mar- m- marxist philosophy and he ha- they had some other fantastic [fantastic names] </S2>
<S1> [soviet law] and [so on] </S1>
<S2> [soviet] law history of the communist party so have ha- has your father also had these kind of subjects or has he has he been talking about them </S2>
<S6> er i don't know about those <S2> [mhm] </S2> [though i] presume subjects like that would be present also <S2> [mhm] </S2> [in] at university level also [in theology] </S6>
<S2> [mhm] yes <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] like common subje- subjects for everybody er that all people have to kind of er have er just mandatory across all studies right even if you studied physics and didn't have anything to do with er , with with things like history of the communist party <S1> mhm </S1> and interestingly in ukraine i saw that these , all these teachers who had been giving these who ha- who ha- who had er taught these subjects they were retained but instead they had to all of a sudden teach er history of ukraine and er ukrainian language and culture and er ukrainian politics or the the the state system in ukraine law for instance <S1> mhm </S1> so that er that over night they had to switch from becoming teachers of er history of the communist party to history of ukraine teachers <S1> [mhm] </S1> [@@] @so that is quite a@ extraordinary change erm but i guess that they didn't really mind because otherwise they would have been they would have been fired or they would have lost their jobs so er an an an interesting kind of er er switch so this th- by and large this block of erm mandatory subjects , which is called i think the <FOREIGN> gumanitarni blok </FOREIGN> <S1> mhm </S1> er in russian erm was was basically retained but then just that the the the er well the content of the the subjects changed <S1> [yes] </S1> [of] the disciplines which is er and that was really new for me to find this because in in the dutch context we don't have any kind of mandatory subjects which are er sort of similar for all students across all studies you just start with you start out with say physics and you only get subjects related to physics and er this was actually quite new for me , yes </S2>
<NS8> what about in finland is there er like a general education minimum say the first first years in university or . or is there <S1> mhm </S1> <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [what] about in er in say high school or <FOREIGN> lukio </FOREIGN> . is there a mandatory group of courses say history math or certain level science that sort of thing </NS8>
<S5> in er spain it is </S5>
<NS8> yeah <S2> [mhm] </S2> [we have] the same like the first two years in university are considered to be [in the US] </NS8>
<S7> [but not] in the university <S2> mhm </S2> i mean high school </S7>
<NS8> okay [yeah] </NS8>
<S1> [mhm] yes </S1>
<S2> mhm [high school] </S2>
<S7> [i think there are more] like basic level of science stuff in in university that everybody has to go through <NS8> yeah </NS8> but i don't know i mean like so much about the other departments </S7>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S2> mhm </S2>
<NS8> yeah we had er english erm usually literature would be part of it history erm math you had to be in a certain level which depended on <S2> [mhm] </S2> [what you studied] (literally) easy math while other students were done with it by high school <S2> uh-huh </S2> <S1> mhm </S1> so there is a certain basic (xx) </NS8>
<S5> you have also philosophy and latin </S5>
<NS8> yeah </NS8>
<S1> mhm <S2> oh yes okay [yes] </S2> [as] compulsory subject for different disciplines </S1>
<S5> yeah <S2> latin </S2> yeah <S2> er u- er </S2> it's the basis of our language </S5>
<S2> er [yes but] </S2>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<S5> and also it's good for the science <SS> mhm-hm </SS> they said that </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [but @@] </S2>
<S5> [@they did it's horrible believe me@] </S5>
<S2> ac- across all all [er studies of higher education or] </S2>
<S5> [no no no only one course] </S5>
<S2> mhm only one course [yes] </S2>
<S5> [but] you have to pass some subjects that are obligatory for everyone </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S2> okay so even if you're studying [physics] </S2>
<S5> [yeah i] was studying science <S2> [okay] </S2> [physic] <SIC> chemics </SIC> <S2> [yeah] </S2> [er] chemistry and everything <S2> uh-huh </S2> also er lineal drawing and er <S2> mhm </S2> <FOREIGN> dibujo lineal </FOREIGN> </S5>
<S9> yeah yes </S9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S5> [okay] </S5>
<S1> [mhm some kind] of technical drawing <S5> [yeah] </S5> [maybe] yes </S1>
<S5> and i had to study latin history history of spain is the first year and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [then] history of the world </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S2> s- so er in higher education <S5> [yeah] </S5> [or] in school in higher education <S1> mhm </S1> history of spain as well <S5> yeah </S5> <S1> mhm </S1> and how would you think about this er oh well well this is your presentation again perhaps i shouldn't <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] but but i was just er g- about to ask er well if if d- if it doesn't surface in your presentation perhaps you can answer it but ho- ho- how do they go about with this idea of teaching history of of spain in catalonia and the basque country is it also [obligatory there] </S2>
<S5> [that's also] in my in my presentation [but] </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [oh right okay] </S2>
<S5> this [is the problem] </S5>
<S1> [@okay@] </S1>
<S2> okay <S1> [okay] </S1> [well okay] i'll leave it there </S2>
<S1> but maybe we can go then to the questions that we have prepared </S1>
<S2> yes and j- just o- one more question because i i'm intrigued by the united states you said erm there are these kind of core subjects which you find everywhere in in in colleges right <NS8> [yeah] </NS8> [for for] a bachelor degree but as i understand from the united states it's a very f- it's an extremely er liberal and federal country and decentralised country er are there some kind of federal minimal kind of federal regulations which all colleges have to </S2>
<NS8> i don't know where the legislation comes from <S2> [ah] </S2> [i would] assume it is federal because i've never heard of anybody not taking these <SS> [mhm okay] </SS> [and you] kind of the first two years are sort of considered to be unless you accelerate and you can do that <S2> mhm </S2> and some students do do that they take college level courses in high school <SS> mhm </SS> beyond them but er yeah er that's pretty much everybody takes these first first required courses so it must [i assume it's federal] <SS> [mhm-hm] mhm </SS> but that's an assumption </NS8>
<S2> [okay @@] </S2>
<S1> [so is it also that] universities are somehow distrustful of higher high schools so they want to ensure that er students reach some kind of a common level in these basic subjects so </S1>
<NS8> i don't know i don't know whe- i i'd love to read the history of that i don't know if it's a more of er er you know because of the relationship between them <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and it's a] it's a m- a measure to try ensure that people who are coming they're educated there actually is (xx) people that do make it to college who got no <S1> mhm </S1> you know who can't read well <S2> mhm [mhm] </S2> [so the] system isn't isn't airtight by any means <SS> mhm </SS> so </NS8>
<S2> but also history is is is is part of that is that just american history [or general history] </S2>
<NS8> [i believe] i don't remember what what they they give you a certain you do have like a packet of courses you can choose from <S2> [okay] </S2> [so social] sciences will include [(xx)] <S2> [oh] yes </S2> but erm i don't remember for history exactly was it that that er <S2> mhm </S2> i should have done this for my presentation </NS8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> it's over now @so@ [@@] </S1>
<S2> [yes] but that's i think oh that's tha- that's er that's quite surprising actually i thought that america was so liberalised that you wouldn't have any er federal er well interference i mean <NS8> [yeah] </NS8> [it's because] often it's seen by parents as federal interference <NS8> [yeah] </NS8> [in a sense] er at the er higher education level </S2>
<NS8> well (xx) it wouldn't surprise me if it's not even legislated if it's more of just the system <S2> [yeah just] </S2> [that has been] produced and and sort of what they've come to <SS> mhm </SS> to agree on and think the best way to do it <SS> mhm mhm-hm </SS> (so anyway) </NS8>
<S2> mhm yeah . okay yes shall we turn to the <S1> [yes] </S1> [points] yes erm , let's go to the first one erm , so what about this one the the very pro- provocative er statement that we have here the promotion of critical thinking destroys national cohesion , do you think this is true . yes </S2>
<NS8> i think it would depend on on erm , sort of what you are being taught or or what you have the opportunity to learn but i wouldn't say that knowing something would necessarily make you er er er , like isolate yourself or or make you lose the feeling of community [(or something)] </NS8>
<S2> [mhm mhm-hm] mhm-hm and why not </S2>
<NS8> well like (xx) , i think that to know to learn it doesn't necessarily mean to er because of the fact that you might question more and you might not be as quickly willing to trust <S2> mhm-hm </S2> that can make it a longer process or make it more difficult for a state to gain your trust <S2> mhm-hm </S2> but i think that's also what we require a state to be more honest <S2> [mhm] </S2> [(xx)] er <SS> [mhm] </SS> [what (xx) and] what it does and i think that that probably er that would be a a utopian idea that everybody would be educated and through that the state would be regulated but i think that that ultimately that it'd be better to have people know than to have masses of people that are willing to follow <S2> mhm </S2> blindly <S2> [yeah] </S2> [(xx)] it's it's not (xx) </NS8>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S2> yes there's a i th- er i think i'll prob- y- yes go ahead </S2>
<S6> i think it depends also very much on what counts as critical thinking if you teach people to be critical and question everything they see in front of them then er i think social or national cohesion cannot be maintained but if it comes for example with respect and respect for discussion and respect for other people for for diversity for er the things that you don't know then i think it's very much possible <SS> mhm-hm mhm </SS> <NS8> yeah </NS8> that that national cohesion is maintained </S6>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<S2> [mhm-hm] , yes </S2>
<S9> i think er the critical thinking may may lead to wh- lead to break the national cohesion and also drive more to er other kind of values rather than national national feeling sometimes like wh- what is related to national cohesion and er fo- i i'm thinking for example the case of spain now <S2> mhm-hm </S2> erm well i see that no- now in spain lots of er questioning of the the nation and like er different er provinces and er the languages and everything and er and i try and i and i s- and i see m- i don't know how how close i'm from the reality (of it) but i see like they're looking for other kind of er er link that well @yeah@ link that links them @@ and erm er makes them as a nation or as a as a group of <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [people] rather than a than a nation they built as as an historical (build) process but now other kind of values i could say on on the like if the critical critical that that the critical thinking drives for for other kind of values than questioning every every every every kind of issue that is is in front of you it might lead to other kind of er deeper deeper let's say value (than) cohesion </S9>
<S2> mhm but but so you think it is i- it is a threat to social cohesion the the [er yeah yes] </S2>
<S9> [mhm yes i would say yes] yes i i would believe so yes </S9>
<S2> and and er i- in what way again and and why would it lead <S9> [what] </S9> [to] wh- why would it undermine social cohesion in [society] </S2>
<S9> [erm] well well because it's like er it's a socially constructed the the national <S2> [mhm] </S2> [the] the national feeling so it could erm if you tried to it probably it won't like it de- it depends also like which er which variables or which er which has been the process of building the nation <S2> mhm-hm mhm </S2> but er i think it could threat for example er if i think er comparing countries and stuff for example comparing the states and comparing mexico and erm comparing like this er for example i i sometimes i think about (myself) like er like just part of this world and not anymore like part of er a country or part of a certain government that has been built over me or or which i've been raised or in the states sometimes i see this this control mind control and i say like no way it's just it has been just er a construction not so much as er as er so if critical thinking drives to this to this kind of thinking that i'm having i think it could break national cohesion yes <S1> mhm </S1> [but] </S9>
<S1> [but] you also like in a way you don't think that national cohesion is needed after all that maybe we need some kind like different kinds of solidarity </S1>
<S9> mhm [yes solidarity] </S9>
<S1> [that i think this is] what you said also that kind of it goes beyond national borders </S1>
<S9> yes yes that's exactly <S1> [mhm] </S1> [what i] what i mean yes </S9>
<S2> or a- are are you because er er if i understand you well er do you a- also want make the point that erm er it depends on the history of of a national identity formation that in those countries which have used more a kind of cultural way of creating kind of er a national community or a nation that in those countries it might be so who are relying on language and history and culture that in those countries it might be especially say er it might be quite harmful this critical thinking because it it undermines historical myths that are seen as underpinning the nation whereas in other countries that are that er have a more p- perhaps more constitutional tradition or a more kind of a tradition of erm er well civic tradition <S9> mhm </S9> er that in those countries this idea of critical thinking is actually part and parcel of this whole idea of of of the nation because the the nation is er based on the idea of public debate of of of er of that everybody is involved in in in in the public debate and it is the the public debate makes the nation , is is that what you're kind of er kind of driving at </S2>
<S9> yes [(obviously) (xx)] </S9>
<S2> [is that it @@ am i er] </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> well er i'm referring here to kind of a discussion that you see in the study of nationalism this er there are some people who are saying who c- claim that some nations are f- b- founded more on ethnocultural principles whereas others are founded more on civic principles er and er well actually i don't quite agree with this er er this kind of theory i have my strong doubts about it <S1> [mhm] </S1> [certainly] about the intranjudi- intransu- w- what is it unchangeability forget it <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] the unchangeability of these er categories <S1> mhm </S1> erm so i think that nations that used to be conceived of in a quite ethnocultural way they can they can er that may be true this is for instance often said of of the german of of the german nation which is con- often people you see that it's argued er for instance by brubaker a well-known scholar erm who argues that er ger- he he he contrasts germany to france and he he thinks that german nationhood relies on things like n- er german national identity er relies on things like er er culture language history <S1> mhm </S1> whereas french nationhood relies on more the kind of the ideas of the french revolution <FOREIGN> liberté égalité fraternité </FOREIGN> and erm , erm so he sees this kind of er well contrast as still influencing today's policies and er well i i have my doubts about this theory but it's often said it's it's often according to this kind of theory you have these so-called typical civic nations which would then be france britain the US er canada holland to some extent as well switzerland as well er those are the original five or six er assumed to be civic nations by er hans kohn who is er the inventor who invented this kind of dichotomy and er a- and then he contrasts those with er germany and germany's also supposed to have influenced the er nationalisms of all the east european nations so they have all they've modelled on this kind of german romanticist idea of er the <FOREIGN> kulturnation </FOREIGN> [and er and] </S2>
<S1> [mhm but in a] way then er still if we come back to this critical thinking idea then in a way it would be quite difficult to argue that er for example a country like france would encourage a much more critical attitude towards its institutions <S2> mhm-hm </S2> than would for example er a country like germany <S2> mhm [yes] </S2> [so in a] way i think er also er well i don't know maybe <NAME S3> could say something about france like would w- do you think that in france the government somehow encourages critical attitude towards the state institutions towards its history or is it still something that has to be taken for granted <S3> [mhm] </S3> [because] this is basically the argument that you are making <S2> [yes] </S2> [that] civic nations would be more open to criticism <S2> mhm </S2> than these kind of ethnocultural nations and i i <S2> [yes] </S2> [wouldn't] really i don't have any @er@ any proof here but i- in a way i wouldn't really i wouldn't agree [maybe] </S1>
<S2> [mhm] </S2>
<S3> yeah i i don't know so much about that but i think that for example like erm well i remember like some discussions in the class about the the the position of france as a colonial state and now having these populations from the former colonised countries it's very very sensitive issue and still can't be very much open for example in the in the universities like this er it's like this fear of conflict in a way because then er these people who are came from who came from algeria or morocco and they are not supposed to be french and of course they would have the the the different vision of the erm of history for example than what is in the national <S1> mhm </S1> e- what is held like in the national education <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] i i think it's er the- these kind of things are a bit of sensitive topics <S1> mhm </S1> and that's why the religion for example is such a <S1> mhm </S1> such erm yeah an issue but i don't know about the basic education or <SS> mhm </SS> (xx) </S3>
<S1> like to what extent you're also allowed to question these ideas of <FOREIGN> fraternité liberté </FOREIGN> <S2> yeah </S2> and and to what extent you can er i don't know like really er also ask whether these ideals are really guiding also er the political life in france because in a way i i wouldn't think that er these ideals have really been put into practice they're more this kind of myth <S2> mhm </S2> of of france this is a but to what extent they are really there in in everyday life <S2> mhm [yeah] </S2> [and to] what extent you can question these kind of things </S1>
<S2> well er i think erm what just er going back to what you just sa- said <S1> [mhm] </S1> [before] indeed it would be nice er it would be a nice er way of a nice kind of research would be to to see whether actually these so-called civic nations are much er more relaxed in in teaching about their own histories also in the in the say the the more embarrassing parts in their own histories than than er the so-called ethnic nations <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [so] are the french much more erm willing or don't they mind to to to teach their children about er the the the not so say er glorious role of the french nation in the second world war for instance you know in in this occupied er or in in this in this er what is it the vichy regime for instance er er are they more willing to do so to come to terms with the dark spots in their own history than the ethnic nations and i think there you would find probably no difference at all <S1> mhm </S1> erm i mean in in america i think that there there there's probably not much you probably don't have lot of teachers or or or pupils who are that much interested in teaching about the vietnam war for instance or and er or is there [i- it depends] </S2>
<NS8> [well at university] level you can <S2> [yes] </S2> [basically] find whatever <SS> mhm yeah </SS> whatever you [(are looking for)] </NS8>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<S2> yes that's true of course but let's let's say in schools or in in in at college level <NS8> [yeah] </NS8> [perhaps] it's a it's a bit well er that y- you would really have to have a special interest in it and it's maybe not part of a kind of the central syllabus that a school uses or </S2>
<NS8> yeah and some people are er fired for things that they say <S2> [fired oh @@] </S2> [it it just depends oh yes] especially the last in the last two years <S2> ah [@@] </S2> [you know] there's been some cases where it's generally only if children will go home and tell their parents something that their teacher might have said and the parent finds it offensive <S2> [ah] </S2> [and if] the the school's administration is in league or in line sort of er ideologically one way or another and find it offensive and sometimes there's you know the whole town is enough of the same mind to where they can get away with it <SS> mhm-hm </SS> that's the weird thing in the US that it just depends on who it goes through and er <S2> [mhm] </S2> [you know] how the result is some of the time it can be thrown out that the administrator could s- tell the parent well i'm sorry but you know this is , this happens but sometimes (it goes the other way) </NS8>
<S1> okay </S1>
<S2> mhm so it w- well there's some proof then that er that er it it seems that history is equally sensitive in civ- in so-called civic nations so <S1> mhm </S1> in that sense may not be much difference there [er] </S2>
<S1> [yes] but it <S2> [yes] </S2> [seem] i- it still seems to be some kind of like this erm thinking is reflected i think in for the new states that er we can't really er like as you saw for example in the case of ukraine that you can't really promote any kind of erm er critical attitude towards er like you weren't i'm sure that you weren't supposed to question the very essence of <S2> [mhm mhm] </S2> [ukrainian history] or the very essence of er ukrainian language or its status as a language <S2> [mhm] </S2> [you] are supposed to take this kind of things for granted <S2> mhm </S2> because er the nation the construction of the nation was the the first priority <S2> [yes] </S2> [and] you see the same thing now also happening in russia that this kind of patriotic education is er it's really y- you really won't find any kind of mention of things like critical thinking so instead it just really in op- in er opposite to that you find emphasis on loyalty on er obedience on sacrifice also that you should also be ready to make sacrifice if the state er requests sacrifice from you [so] </S1>
<S2> [mhm] </S2>
<S3> [but i think that] it must be a little bit the same case for example in israel where for example if you <S2> [mhm] </S2> [question] the state policy it's quite hard to live there and most of the people who are opposing the government they move abroad which means that the politics never change <SS> mhm </SS> (i think) </S3>
<S2> yes that is often <S1> [yeah] </S1> [that] is often the case indeed in er regimes that are growing slightly more authoritarian [you see a flight of the cultural intelligentsia] </S2>
<S1> [mhm mhm] mhm but what about if we move now <S2> [yes] </S2> [from] this question just to if we take one more question and i think maybe the last one if we want to continue with this dilemma between critical thinking and and this national unity so how does globalisation relate to this tension er i- i don't know what what do you think about it , so this effect of globalisation and especially like how er i introduced yesterday shortly the the work of these international (agents) who really have their own specific agenda of citizenship education and they try to implement it via different channels in in member states </S1>
<NS8> i think it shines light all over the infrastructural weaknesses of of countries that have these sorts of educations and that's kind of er to me that's what kind of erm is the beacon for education that that teaches critical thinking because of the fact that it's gonna come out anyway and it's either gonna be an uncomfortable transition <S1> mhm </S1> erm that has a lot of er probably conflict er or it's gonna be one that's still probably painful but maybe a a little more er anticipated </NS8>
<S2> so in your view globalisation would definitely er er lead to a further emphasis on critical thinking at the expense of <NS8> yeah </NS8> [loyalty] </S2>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<NS8> 'cause it it <S1> mhm </S1> it shoves in the face of everybody the fact that there's so many different lifestyles and different kinds of people and that this agenda the nationalist agenda of most countries if it's going to glorify one nation ins- create that sort of imaginary order that and it doesn't hold it's not real <SS> mhm-hm </SS> it's a farce </NS8>
<SS> mhm-hm </SS>
<S6> for tho- for those people who think that it's it's a farce yeah but for those who who were taught loyalty for them it's not because they think it's it's really true that they are a nation in that sense <SS> mhm [mhm-hm] </SS> [i think that's] because al- at least in europe i i can speak of europe these many nations are constructed on er i can't say loyalty but nation states are in minds of people and they think they are part of a nation and now through globalisation through migration many foreign people come into the country and erm it started to get so diverse and so difficult to come together every- everyone to get some er a balance between all their values and and er and opinions and ways of life that it's erm , the tension between being loyal to the state and critical thinking towards more diversity for example <S1> [mhm] </S1> [are] towards erm bringing all those people together in trying to live together in that sense becomes greater and greater and that's i think also er quite er the reason why in recent times erm many states have come back a little bit more into this nationalistic erm [direction politically speaking (in a frightening) erm yeah] </S6>
<SS> [mhm mhm-hm mhm] </SS>
<NS8> i think maybe that's also the question of the motive of globalisation and because of in a sense globalisation has been fuelled mostly by , in a sense financial and corporate interests er <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [and] inter- intergovernmental interests on er er on a on a more functional scale i think that that has that makes it also an important issue because why <S2> [yeah] </S2> [is] what is globalisation for <S1> [mhm] </S1> [are we] globalising because people are seeing a country next door and they're they wanna become friends <SS> [mhm @@ mhm-hm] </SS> [you know or it is] because they're fascinated by other people's culture <SS> [@@] </SS> [or is it more] that the process is kind of being forced on them </NS8>
<S2> yeah yeah this yeah so you might this er what might happen is that you get a kind of unintended side-effect of globalisation in in terms of a popular kind of er feelings of well uncomfortable er people feel increasingly uncomfortable with globalisation and therefore they they start re-emphasising national identities and so on and these and again translate through i mean if if that affects their foti- vo- voting behaviour then in the end it will also affect i guess er the the composition of parliaments and also the policies again yes in that sense er yeah indeed so in a sen- yeah in a sense globalisation being the kind of the kind of instrument of the happy few forced upon the rest of the population who is reacting strongly towards it yes that's just but is there for instance er , can we can we well think of say a country in which or countries in which this process is is happening and and which have already er resulted in kind of policies which might be said to strengthen loyalty rather than er rather than er decrease loyalty i'm just having one particular country here in mind but maybe that's not such a where there's a clear case of this but er there's more as as well . (is there) </S2>
<S1> i think you mean holland </S1>
<S2> holland yes er but yes partly because the- indeed indeed we now have a slightly more well it's it's funny we have a kind of social-conservative government <SS> @@ </SS> sounds like a contradiction in terms but it's a it's a kind of er socially speaking socio-economically speaking a rather left-wing government but er at the same time it's quite christian in outlook so a kind of er er social-conservative government i er er that's the only kind of term i can find for it and they are they seem er they are endorsing now a kind of new (things) erm er d- d- er they're endorsing something like a national canon in history erm and this clearly has to with things like who are we and and er what are we as a dutch nation and so on so this is actually going to be implemented a a national canon to my er er er well to my horror @@ <S1> mhm </S1> but er so yes you might see this you do see this in er in holland wh- th- remember also the the the the huge popular no vote against the er against the european er consti- constitution there was a referendum in holland and together with france er it was vo- the the the dutch er elected voted it down by even larger margi- than in er margin than in france and you can also this could perhaps also be seen as a kind of protest against further integration or further globalisation <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm but the country i actually had in mind was er japan and er i'm not sure if you've read anything about this recent issue er in the the japanese er press er well it's been been all over in the western media that the japanese prime minister is now denying that there have been these er atrocities committed by the japanese soldiers in in the second world war on i think it related to the issue of er comfort women er these women that had been taken hostage by the japanese army and that were forced into prostitution and this issue is now er although it was first admitted by by by previous governments and acknowledged and previous governments have have even made excuses the new government is now coming back on this issue and saying no no er wait er it has not happened @so that's quite amazing@ so er it seems that er there's a recons- yes kind of a er the the the a k- kind of a well a swing back to kind of things like state patriotism and loyalty and so on national myths , <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i've taken up] all the space @again@ erm but any other remarks as to this point , it's already five o'clock [isn't it] </S2>
<S1> [yeah] but i think this is also maybe now when er <NAME S5> and <NAME S6> have their presentations maybe they could also in a way think quickly also in terms of this dilemma and how they think how you think this er dilemma is dealt with in the case of your countries </S1>
<S5> i think that loyalty it's er being or put in question or something <S1> [mhm] </S1> [like that] because for example with military force now you don't know why you are fighting <S1> [mhm] </S1> [or] mhm because for example we went with united states and in the last conflict and we made a referendum and the referendum said no and <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [we went so] it's we said in spain that we try to dance with the strongest one <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] it's always like that we always do what united states says or what er european union says and it's so yeah there is a lot of people that doesn't n- don't want that <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] they are like disappointed or something and they don't believe that the state is doing the best for the (xx) state so <S1> mhm </S1> the loyalty is something that you say loyalty to who <S1> mhm </S1> to the state or to the states that control our state <S1> mhm </S1> so it's something like that you <SS> [mhm] </SS> [don't believe] in spain as a nation that er fight , for getting <S2> [mhm] </S2> [something] good for her er for the nation <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's like yeah we have to throw away the oil because italy and greece have has to er sell more oil or you know these kind of economic pacts and we can't sell these or we have to buy these even if we have and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [it's] something [(that you)] </S5>
<S1> [but is it] possible now than that we are also er well you dealt sh- like shortly with this question of er national cohesion and maybe now we're really kind of er facing this problem that within nations we are encountering people who are becoming more nationalistic in their attitude and more maybe er feeling the need for this kind of strong myth and strong symbols of state and er and there are other people who are maybe much more erm pro erm post-nationa- nationalism maybe so more welcoming this and and in that sense still then the the the the nation itself is crumbling even though <S2> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S2> [within the nation there are] there might be groups of people who feel very strongly er the need for this kind of return to the old good times , you know </S1>
<S2> yes so yeah well th- that that could be very well be happening like the the cosmopolitan elite is walking away from the nation <S1> [mhm mhm] </S1> [basically is is is] er yes </S2>
<NS8> i was wondering if there's ever been any extensive studies trying to (group) and look at nationalism and education (mixed together) erm to try to come up with any sort of ultimate er types of nationalism far more common among a certain level of educated in the US i would say that erm , maybe er lack of education seems to get a higher and more kind of frantic nationalism <SS> mhm [mhm] </SS> [but] then , yeah (it's hard to say) </NS8>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S2> yes you mean er yes it's that er whether education level is related to to nationalism and [feelings or national pride] </S2>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<NS8> [have you you guys seen any] studies because i've i have <S1> [mhm] </S1> [(really started)] looking for this kind of thing </NS8>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<S2> [oh er] er there is from what i know is that there's always a strong relation strong negative relation between education level and and <S1> [mhm] </S1> [nationalism] so that <S1> mhm </S1> the the the higher educated people are the the less nationalistic and less er <S1> [mhm] </S1> [prou-] proud they are of their nation less patriotic that that is a that is a clear er kind of <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] there is there's clear correlation very significant that you see everywhere that's kind of a [(trend)] </S2>
<S1> [but] at the same time in history er nations were developed by these highly educated <S2> mhm </S2> intellectuals so those were actually representing the you know the , the highest level of their society and they were the ones who came up with this nationalistic agenda and then were spreading it <S2> mhm </S2> among the lower masses so <S2> yes </S2> in a way </S1>
<S2> mhm-hm </S2>
<NS8> i wondered about that too <SS> [mhm] </SS> [so when people] were creating these idea- create- nation-building <SS> mhm yes </SS> if they at the end of the day sometimes wondered what they were doing <SS> [@@] </SS> [or kind of knew] but they didn't really believe in it but that this was <S2> [mhm] </S2> [something] they felt they had to do in order to protect <S2> mhm </S2> a certain interest <S1> mhm </S1> and in the US i feel like the constitution i mean if you really look at it it was geared towards personal protection with as little (xx) as possible so they really just wanted to protect their personal interest while trying to keep the populations happy which they're oftentimes quoted as saying we're the common masters or for masses there's a ton of quotes <S1> [mhm] </S1> [from] from the declaration writers <S2> mhm </S2> talking about their low opinion of the common people [so] </NS8>
<S2> [mhm] mhm yes and er well yeah and er i think it it it it quite differs from place to place and perhaps i must say er hans kohn was right in some way @@ i carefully er i'm being being very careful here but er the united states has has a rather different of course er history of of of building the nation and if if you look at many c- er nations in eastern europe they have been ruled by others by feudal er autocratic regimes and then often the cultural int- intelligentsia used this er kind of this this new kind of way of th- this new kind of thinking about the nation coming from german romanticism as a way to er solidify a kind of group and er erm use it also as a as a means to fight themselves free from this kind of er larger er empire <NS8> mhm </NS8> er the poles the ukrainians everybody so there's it was a [there's a] </S2>
<S1> [the finns] </S1>
<S2> the finns so the k- the the idea of er so emancipation notions of emancipation were also part and parcel of this kind of cultural nationalism that swept all across eastern europe in the second half of the 19th century and er in that sense it was er so that was also part of it a- and er and erm , yeah so the idea that as a nation you were suppressed by er a fo- foreign nation and er so interestingly in oh yes i talked about this in the last in the first lecture that er there is a whole y- you can see that in middle in eastern europe in poland czechoslovakia oh former czechoslovakia erm romania and so on so all those nations that have known a a period of of foreign domination for them er nationalism has a positive connotation it also means liberation it also means emancipation <S1> mhm </S1> and democracy so they associate act- they associate it actually with democracy <S1> mhm </S1> that's interesting er [back @yes yes@] </S2>
<S1> [okay maybe] we move now to er the presentations because er it would be nice if we have enough time that you say what you have to say and then we <S2> [mhm] </S2> [still] can have some discussion also on that so i switch do you need <S6> i don't </S6> yeah okay and <S2> [mhm] </S2> [you] just use the blackboard <S5> [yeah] </S5> [yeah] so i switch this off , and er who would like to start </S1>
<S6> i can start if that's fine </S6>
<S1> you want to start <S6> yeah </S6> okay so maybe i go to sit would you like sit in front maybe that would be [yeah] </S1>
<S2> [okay] or </S2>
<S6> do i have to come to the front or </S6>
<S1> yeah it's better if you come here i think <S2> mhm </S2> yes </S1>
<S6> mhm </S6>

<PRESENTATION USEMP13A by S6>

<S2> thank you yes interesting that you said er so it's all arranged what i more or less expected at the canton level right at the sta- substate level <S6> mhm-hm </S6> but then they formulate some kind of guidelines on having respect for all the languages inside the canton and so on but erm have they also formulated any kind of guidelines on nurturing some kind of a loyalty to switzerland as a whole or is is that [er it's interesting] </S2>
<S6> [er it's not] it's not really in here if also if i look back at erm at my education in in primary school <S2> mhm </S2> this was basically just er history about the canton there <S2> [oh] </S2> [was] no no higher education er no no education about erm about er history of switzerland itself </S6>
<S2> nothing </S2>
<S6> no it would it came then in secondary school </S6>
<S2> oh it came in se- <S6> [yeah] </S6> [okay] it was in secondary school <S6> yeah </S6> yes and okay but er have you also looked at the- er these apply to primary education or also to [secondary] </S2>
<S6> [only] only to primary education </S6>
<S2> only to primary [okay yes] </S2>
<S6> [only to primary] education because i think that was the <S2> mhm-hm </S2> yeah that was the the assignment [but] </S6>
<S2> [oh] yes the so there's a ma- may- perhaps kind of pedagogical kind of philosophy behind it that you start out by teaching children just er er history of the locality and then you move on to ever higher levels <S6> [yeah i think so] </S6> [perhaps as as] as they grow older </S2>
<S6> mhm-hm <S2> [mhm] </S2> [also to] first that these people know about their own environment and then they <S2> [mhm] </S2> [can] learn about the environment of other people or around them <S2> [mhm] </S2> [which] they are not connected to directly <S2> mhm-hm </S2> in a sense of locality </S6>
<S2> mhm , still i think it's quite revealing that so a- at primary school er there's no attention at all to the national level that that is quite i think er striking and quite er </S2>
<S6> at least i can't remember <SS> yeah </SS> maybe maybe i'm wrong there but </S6>
<S2> er would you would you know anything about er you haven't really looked at these er the same objectives and the same er curricular guidelines (in) for the secondary level </S2>
<S6> no i haven't for <S2> mhm </S2> for the guidelines i haven't looked at the guidelines but they are more well in the after the old system they were quite traditional also <S2> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S2> [at least] from what i can gather what i when i was in school in secondary school erm . <S2> mhm-hm </S2> yeah it's it's a little hard to say i talked to some people and they're mostly er it was quite loyalty-based or la- loyalty-driven <S2> [mhm] </S2> [also] and er not so much questioning the authority and critical thinking <S2> mhm-hm </S2> at least in in er in the area of er history for example <S2> mhm-hm </S2> where you could have a different opinion much more easier than in science for example <S2> [yes] </S2> [but] , erm . it depends very much on the teacher i think and that's because these guidelines are so general that you really can t- teachers are quite open to do their thing what how they want people to be educated and and i haven't heard of any problems with that <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [teachers] being so open that er parents would come to the school or that they will be fired or had really big problems with er with the school council for example </S6>
<S2> mhm-hm mhm-hm , i see so there's the in a way the guidelines are so vague and you wouldn't know of any other kind of er other kind of guidelines that would oblige the teacher to er or for instance you have there's not some kind of very detailed syllabus underlying these guidelines which er er kind of map out lesson by lesson what has to be taught [so these are] </S2>
<S6> [erm i] think there are erm it wasn't until now but i think slowly this is coming becoming more true <S2> mhm </S2> erm i have a friend of mine he's becoming a teacher right now and he has some really thick folders of er syllabus curricular guidelines <S2> [mhm] </S2> [what] has to be taught and </S6>
<S2> when and [(xx)] </S2>
<S6> [yeah] i don't know exactly when well when is in there <S2> mhm </S2> and what is in there but i don't know exactly erm about how i th- <S2> [mhm] </S2> [i think] that the methods are quite open but <S2> mhm </S2> erm , these things have to be in there <S2> mhm </S2> that are in those papers </S6>
<S1> but is it then <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [possible] i don't know maybe erm mhm er <NAME S10> has studied really teachers so maybe you you can say something about it but i was just thinking that in the earlier times like erm teachers also teacher students were also very strictly controlled who they are you know how they were er chosen also <S10> yes </S10> erm screened into this teacher training and is it possible that now the state is also somehow er sure that people who become teachers they have been so deeply nationally socialised that in the way they don't have to be prescribed how to foster these feelings of national cohesion or something but they would more or less do it automatically i don't @know@ </S1>
<S2> you're talking <S1> [@is it@] </S1> [here] from the finnish experience right up to [the 30s and the] </S2>
<S1> [yeah maybe] i don't know but er i don't know mhm is it illi- i- is it absolutely absurd @@ what i say </S1>
<S10> i don't know but then again there there are sort of new new more more subtle ways of of controlling schools er i mean <FOREIGN> arviointi </FOREIGN> <S1> [evaluation] </S1> [what is it] evaluation more more subtle ways of instead of sort of like like this <S1> mhm </S1> yes </S10>
<S1> yeah so instead of prescribing in advance what has to be taught this kind of <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [evaluation] determines what is taught because er schools know what i- what are the criteria that they are evaluated <S10> mhm </S10> against is that what you mean </S1>
<S10> yeah that's what i mean </S10>
<S1> so in a way they still er function in accordance to some kind of framework though the framework comes not from guidelines but from this state evaluation procedure </S1>
<S10> we each have this <S1> mhm </S1> suprana- what is it like interna- suprana- na- nation level [which (xx)] </S10>
<S1> [mhm supranational level] </S1>
<S10> supranational level <S1> mhm </S1> in- influenced from by supranational (budget) </S10>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S6> i think that might be even the case for switzerland at least in primary education i know erm that before a few years ago they had just a reform about how the teachers were ought to be educated <S1> mhm </S1> and before it was erm very there were extra schools for er people that wanted to be teachers and i don't i don't know exactly how open they were or how they were taught or what they were <S1> [mhm] </S1> [taught] but , erm every canton had those schools <S1> mhm </S1> and er nowadays it's more er a general education become much more general education although erm on er , i don't know if there's still special schools i think there might be some but erm the the the guidelines have become much more general also in eva- er more in the direction of ev- evaluation </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm , did you find anything erm because well er it's it's understandable that switzerland is not talking about something like european identity or something like that but could you see something er linking this er identity to world human rights or world global identity or something like that or was it more about cantons and , [in switzerland] </S1>
<S6> [well in the] primary it's only about cantons <S1> mhm </S1> and very much <S1> yes </S1> in a monocultural way i think but , in secondary i ca- education i can if i look at history what i what i was taught in different things there was quite a lot about for example erm human rights and stuff in there <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] , i think most people know about it although i don't know if they embrace it that's <S1> [mhm] </S1> [a] , different question </S6>
<S1> mhm . okay so maybe then we move to the spanish education </S1>

<PRESENTATION USEMP13B by S5>

<S2> @@ thanks yes i think it's it's a m- it shows marvellously how er citizenship education is affected by who is in power you know by the <S5> [@@] </S5> [regime in power] it's just a wonderful illustration of that <S5> [@@] </S5> [it's just this] such huge changes <S1> [mhm] </S1> [it's really] amazing </S2>
<S5> and also it is clear that the weight of the dictatorship is still , er higher and deeper than the democratic period if you put everything together because now it's almost 30 no yeah almost 30 years or 30 years now 30 <S1> mhm </S1> (xx) and in the beginning was yeah ten years so still now franco has @more power@ if you speak in time terms so </S5>
<S2> mhm mhm [mhm] </S2>
<S1> [mhm] and i think this what you said this kind of suspicion about citizenship education that it could become just a kind of indoctrination subject in disguise it's the same fear that we can see also in post-communist countries like in in in russia for example in the beginning of the 1990s they were really there was also a group of people who was arguing that we shouldn't have any kind of er political subjects in school at all because er instead of that we should really ensure that school is only about giving some kind of er objective <S2> [mhm] </S2> [set of] skills and knowledge and have nothing to do with political values or political socialisation so i think it's <S2> [mhm] </S2> [definitely] a kind of reaction er , ma- inflicted by <S2> mhm </S2> by the very indoctrinative nature of er education in er during the dictatorship or during the dictatorship of the communist party or or whatever country we're talking about </S1>
<S5> i i <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [(xx)] er very related these with the construction of ukraine and russia because we rebuilt the nation <S1> mhm </S1> so it's more or less the same but we decided to use the criticism and the freedom and the in spain , you don't want to look back and it's [like start again] </S5>
<S1> [mhm yes] yeah so in a way what is interesting is that spain doesn't find any kind of glory in its past whereas russia in a way the soviet union for russia for for for the russian regime it really has some kind of positive charge some kind of glory of the soviet union or and what i talked yesterday about this superpower status for example that is associated precisely with the status of the soviet union and which should be re-established now through erm whatever strengthening the military power er energy and er these kind of things so in that sense it's also quite interesting that if a country finds glory gr- glo- glo- glori- gloriful things in its past then it's really er relating in its future differently than for example spain which really try- and maybe the same thing is for germany also in a way really trying to make an entire break from the past and establish the nation from from scratch you know try to find something <S2> mhm </S2> er very new [so] </S1>
<S5> [yeah] but the difference i think that we weren't a powerful nation with franco <S1> mhm </S1> because we were completely closed to the rest of the world <S1> mhm </S1> so we couldn't travel er we couldn't travel well we couldn't do anything and europe forgot completely spain even they were fighting in the world war because i don't know there's mhm communism and everything but franco was also against the erm , mhm er against everything more or less @er@ and nobody came here and said anything only united states were helping during the post civil war but because they were asking for mhm naval bases that they also have there <S1> mhm </S1> and er they gave us some kind of er power powder milk or something like that <S1> mhm </S1> so <S1> mhm </S1> but nobody said anything </S5>
<S1> yes <S2> mhm </S2> you had some comments or </S1>
<NS8> oh i was wondering about with russia er what do you imagine the future would be </NS8>
<S1> <SIGH> [well this is very yeah] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS8> 'cause er [i mean i read some] </NS8>
<S1> [i i don't know] </S1>
<NS8> it seems like there's from the time of the czars there's this sort of this kind of the same vision of power or the same kind of <S1> mhm </S1> i don't know i mean i know that like peter and some of them were who had this desperate notion of fairness and they were trying to make something (xx) er you know f- free the serfs and that sort of stuff [they] </NS8>
<S1> [well] peter the great didn't have any kind of er er like the one who freed the serfs was alexander the second [so] </S1>
<NS8> [oh] but weren't they all sort of they're looking towards the the german mode of government and this sort of what was in some of the the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [baltic] and the swe- some of the swedish system too and they wanted to <S1> yeah </S1> sort of emulate it or adopt it to some degree but it </NS8>
<S1> mhm well in a way er well i don't know that , really russian history in such detail but i would say that some of the czars were really looking more in like to the west like peter the great or alexander the second also the liberator <NS8> [yeah] </NS8> [czar] and others were i think more looking inside russia and more thinking that er we find like the strength and er the ideals and w- that within russia so also this kind of er a famous dichotomy between these er slavophiles and the westernisers so er should russia be more relating to the west or d- is russia so unique and so exotic and so rich in its own history and its own philosophy that it has to find erm these models from within but concerning the future i think it's very hard to say because what is what you can see in russia is that the political erm situation is is kind of determined by really the person in power so in a way what is different i think between the west and russia is that in the west you can see of course ideological changes when the the political party in charge changes but they're not that drastic but what you see in russia is that really the person in charge determines the direction that the country is taking and w- we have only had two persons in power so far boris yeltsin and now vladimir putin so it's er it's interesting to see who will be the next person in power and if he has a kind of similar direction to his predecessor or if he's going to come up with some kind of a new strategy so it's er this kind of er i- i don't know what's the right term <S2> mhm </S2> personification of politics or <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [something] like that i think it's quite strong in russia <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [(i think)] but i wouldn't i wouldn't dare to predict future because er , in a way there are signs waving to both directions </S1>
<S2> mhm-hm </S2>
<S9> what about ukraine ukraine has a glorious past concerning the background that they they want to </S9>
<S1> @mhm@ <S2> @well@ </S2> @it doesn't really have any past@ </S1>
<S2> well @@ </S2>
<S1> if you <S2> [let's] </S2> [ask] a russian </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [yeah if you ask a russian exactly yes @@ yes so she's the er she's the typical example of this kind of chauvinistic russian @mentality yeah@] no the er yes but it's true the the er there are i me- er i mean the there there are erm they're now desperately trying to construct a past and erm they're actually fighting over the wi- wi- with russia over the heritage of the of er <FOREIGN> kiev rus </FOREIGN> which is er which was a quite a large mediaeval empire in the ninth and the tenth century 11th century er before it was destroyed by the the mongols er invading in europe and er both states now claim that history is theirs so the well also u- ukraine the so ukraine now sees sees it as a as an early embodiment of the ukrainian state er and why do they do that it it all has to do with er er a kind of erm , er conjuring up some kind of convincing image of your own nation so if you can if you can if you can say that er u- er the ukrainian nation has had inde- independent forms of statehood in the past it it kind of increases your prestige in the eyes of the these nation builders so they try to find as many instances of kind of independent of expressions of some kind of independent statehood in the past as possible <S1> [mhm] </S1> [the same] also with the cossacks they there there was a in the 16th century there was some kind of er rebellion of of cossacks who who who were a kind of er a bunch of well farmer-soldiers er er farmers or we m- we might say serfs who had fled serfdom who had fled the the the polish nobles mostly and so a kind of a kind of anarchistic kind of army and they are also attributed or th- they're also seen as a kind of early embodiment of the ukrainian state to the point even that in the 16th century the history books say that these that these freedom fighters these cossacks were already true ukrainian patriots that they had already already had this kind of er ukrainian national consciousness so that and but the whole idea of national consciousness is something from the 19th century so back then people could not have a ukrainian national consciousness <S1> mhm </S1> so er er all kinds of modern ideas are projected on people in the past <S1> mhm </S1> and this is all meant to kind of er boost this idea of <S1> [mhm] </S1> [making] it more impressive making it look more impressive </S2>
<S9> just like the kalevala </S9>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [huh sorry] </S2>
<NS8> so that's like the kalevala </NS8>
<S2> the the the the the ka- kale- the </S2>
<NS8> [the finnish epic] </NS8>
<S1> [kalevala yeah] yes it is <S2> [huh] </S2> [like] [the national epoch] </S1>
<NS8> [kind of (xx) from the] karelians </NS8>
<S1> the finnish <S2> [oh] </S2> [national] epoch because in a <S2> [oh oh] </S2> [way it shows] also these kind of prehistorical ways of finnish living so it also er i have seen also even in some interviews with teachers they say that er kalevala proves that we have this very long history and that is why these national myth or national epics <S2> [mhm] </S2> [are] very important because they're used also as these proofs of our historical existence <S2> mhm </S2> even though as you said ironically those people would have never even imagined what finland is or what finnishness is and probably spoke also some kind of ancient dialects of the modern finnish language but still we're trying to construct this linear history of the nation </S1>
<S2> [mhm] </S2>
<NS8> [i thought] it was interesting how they were kind of campaigning in karelia that there in between the wars i don't remember exactly which which area and er they're trying to produce schools and trying to win loyalty to get them over to the finnish side and er i mean of course the languages are related but at the same time i i was thinking about that how you take these these people that have their own thing and want them to embrace this you know the <FOREIGN> eduskunta </FOREIGN> the or whatever the government <S1> mhm </S1> and to to symbolise this whole thing that that has nothing to do with what what they're doing of course it probably is in their best interest especially [now erm] </NS8>
<S1> [mhm mhm] </S1>
<S6> that is exactly the same as switzerland (xx) switzerland 1291 the erm (xx) war it's like the the three , er how can i say it three original cantons became together in <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that sense] although switzerland was not founded until 1848 <S1> mhm </S1> so <COUGH> it's exactly the same the construction goes <SS> [mhm] </SS> [way beyond erm] way back in history <S2> [mhm] </S2> [it's the s-] it's the same with the germans they see themselves <S1> [mhm] </S1> [somewhere] back with the romans <S1> yeah </S1> i mean second roman empire [the third third roman empire] </S6>
<S1> [yes yes] yes </S1>
<NS8> yeah napoleon </NS8>
<SS> [(xx) @@] </SS>
<S1> [but this is like this is really] the question then if you think about critical thinking so will critical thinking ever extend to saying people well look our national history is actually a construct so we can't say that we are now talking about russian history but we are talking about the history of these different empires you know er which are also kind of separate historical events and we have given them these particular national meanings so w- will we ever be critical enough to stand in front of the classroom and say something like that </S1>
<NS8> i think if you could follow it up with something that but that that was 'cause i think it's all developing and i think those are all er i think sometimes in the now we look back and act as if we should have known then <S1> [mhm] </S1> [what we] know now and of course we didn't and of course things were i mean when you think of little tiny regional local levels and how those are (what) developing into larger areas i mean it's it's almost like it's understandable that we've <S1> [mhm] </S1> [had to] go through all of this nonsense to get to move forward <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] then it becomes yeah being honest i think about that in the US also about some of the the silly columbus stuff and <SS> [@@] </SS> [the thanksgiving] celebrations that we have and how i didn't know until college when i took a really a really wild course you know and focused on latin america and everything too that was when i finally one of the first times that i've really been shown more of what had happened but <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] i i think that that i guess (xx) for critical education is that the only way to move forward is to to move forward and to to ar- i think to argue that because if you you might affect the national feeling <S1> mhm </S1> that everything's gonna fall apart i don't think that also is true you know <S1> mhm </S1> 'cause i think that everyone it is in their best interest for things to function <SS> [mhm yes] </SS> [i think that there's always more] (xx) </NS8>
<S1> yeah but er what i would encourage you to do after this course is to try to have these discussions with your friends and see also because i have studied you know this series of nationalism and whenever i have discussions with my friends about for example what russia is you know some of my friends say well there is a place in ukraine there is a stone which says this is where russia started so <S2> [@@] </S2> [don't argue anything] else you know how can you say that you know these things are constructed if there is even a place which says that this is you know this is where the russian empire started from so this is also the kind of pain that i have been facing because when you have realised these things and you are trying to pro- show your point then you are faced with this kind of a <S2> mhm </S2> erm argument this kind of er everyday thinking you know which is based on these er unquestioning er attitudes towards you know our nation our national history so i- it would be interesting if when you have maybe these discussions at home or with your friends what what what what kind of arguments you get into if you if you will try to say that well @@ this is not real you know this is all a construct and of course there will be also <S2> [mhm] </S2> [theorist] in in in er erm in nationalism who would say well this is not who- a er a complete construct that we can really see these kind of real markers of erm national consciousness also in premodern times <S2> mhm [yes] </S2> [so it's] it's also it's it's not some kind of one certain idea in <S2> [yeah] </S2> [the] study of nationalism but there you will also have these different opinions where's the extreme is really being that it all has been created it all has been invented and the other extreme saying no it has all existed before and we have now accumulated this [so] </S1>
<NS8> [yeah] </NS8>
<S5> i think [it ca-] </S5>
<NS8> [accountable] person gets charged </NS8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> [but i think the history] the real history is er er a lot of agreements and what that is was what construct the nat- the nation because for example you you have some kind of stable agreements if you look i don't know another history but in spain you have er the er first there was a lot of tribes and things over there then came the romans and after that it was divided in three parts portugal er the castilla and aragon that is <S1> [mhm] </S1> [now] catalonia <S1> mhm </S1> and i think that you can see these alliances or something like that <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] if they are erm more er they are older it built the nation these <S1> [mhm] </S1> [agreements] built the nation <S1> mhm </S1> because for example franco argue- argued that portugal had to be spain also <S1> mhm </S1> because he started in another point of the history so <S1> [mhm] </S1> [what] m- construct the nation is the agreements <S1> mhm </S1> and now everything is changing because the nation already have a an agreement with something bigger that is for example in europe the european union or also with <S1> mhm </S1> er international organisations or <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [something like that] because of that now it's everything changing </S5>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<NS8> i think israel is the most fascinating example of this </NS8>
<S1> mhm-hm <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [yeah because] it's more recent and it in a way it can be maybe easier tracked down also <S2> uh-huh </S2> than yeah </S1>
<S2> but i- is- israel is fascinating in the sense that er it has revived a completely dead language er er er because hebrew was not in use anymore it just it was simply just recreated by the zionists and th- they the- they started just speaking a completely dead language to give to give flavour to their nation so even this ironically the idea of t- this german romanticist idea that the nation has been everlasting and there's a cultural unit almost like a body you know like an organism and this idea has really inspired er zionists and and er and er the people who who were who were the early settlers who moved back to the well the promised land or so and so they they c- they completely they completely invent- er yeah revived a whole dead language so the the best pupils of this kind of german romanticism of herder and so have been the jews ironically @that's a bit er@ or have been yeah the the zionists that's a kind of ironic twist of history anyway @er@ but er [w- er] </S2>
<S1> [yes okay] but maybe we have to stop (xx) @unfortunately@ <S2> @yes@ </S2> er so well if someone still has some questions about the assignment you can stay for a few minutes after this er seminar or you can contact me by e-mail afterwards but otherwise i just want to thank you all for er being here and being so active and erm er i- i think well i have really enjoyed this course because in a way these discussions have also developed my own thinking and erm i also was very happy that we managed to get these er visiting lecturers and er i want to sa- thank <NAME S1> also for coming and staying with <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [with us] here for ten days so it has been <S2> [my pleasure yes] </S2> [a pleasure having] you here and <S2> mhm </S2> and as i said also er you can contact me later if you want to have some discussion some feedback also on your assignment later on and do remember to fill in the evaluation form online if you still have the er the link , okay so i wish you good luck with your assignment and with your future studies and well i'll see some of you definitely next year but the exchange students @probably@ though some exchange students tend to stay so sometimes it's quite funny that next year ah i found a girlfriend or boyfriend <SS> [@@] </SS> [and i changed my plans i stayed @@] i like studying here so maybe it's also the fate of one of yours i don't know , okay , so yes you can go @@ </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
