<TITLE: Gender Equality
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: women's studies
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD060
NOTES: continuous backchanneling

RECORDING DURATION: 89 min 39 sec

RECORDING DATE: 29.10.2003

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 6

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 6

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> okay <NAME S2> <S2> mhm-hm </S2> here's the text for today and it was again a chapter in the book <S2> okay </S2> okay and er i gave this out yesterday er no last week this is about writing essays <S2> [mhm-hm] </S2> [so most of] that text can be found in the department homepage i i just wanted to want to give it to you (xx) not forget <S2> okay </S2> <P:09> er there's quite a bit of text we had wasn't it i mean it was quite long </S1>
<SU> mhm-hm </SU>
<S2> this one </S2>
<S1> pardon </S1>
<S2> this one </S2>
<S1> yeah <S2> mhm-hm </S2> and it had a lot of stuff in it lots of different aspects to women and work er , can you tell us what did you think about it the text </S1>
<S3> it was easier to to re- read than the other one <SS> yeah mhm </SS> and it was i thought it was really interesting <S1> yeah </S1> because yeah it's a fact i think that women still earn less money <S1> mhm-hm </S1> than , er than male <S1> yeah </S1> mhm </S3>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S1> anybody else <P:07> it covered quite a lot of ground in in er in er and proposed different ways of analysing women in the labour markets and how the position of women has evolved er would anybody else care to comment </S1>
<S3> i had just one question <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] i was reading something on page 161 <S1> yeah </S1> and it was something that i don't know like erm in this part here <S1> mhm-hm </S1> they are saying that like in the soviet union a lot of er er doctors were female <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i wondered like it's here like the profession carried low status and low pay <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but was that because of yeah the fact that most of er most women did that job or was it just , it had already low status or is the fact that women did that the most , like i don't quite get it if <S1> yeah </S1> yeah [if it's the] </S3>
<S1> [well it doesn't] go very much into the details of why it was <S3> [yeah] </S3> [it said] that there was a huge demand for doctors <SU> mhm-hm </SU> in the <SU> [mhm] </SU> [soviet] period and then it said that they opened up higher education for women to graduate as as medical doctors and but then i don't know </S1>
<S3> yeah mhm <SU> [mhm] </SU> [maybe] i i just wanted to ask if [somebody knew that] </S3>
<S1> [yeah yeah] do you have any information <S2> [no] </S2> [on this <NAME S2>] no <S2> no </S2> nothing you've have i- le- learned in your history classes back at school </S1>
<SU> [not @@] </SU>
<S2> [sure we studied] history but <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [a- actually] about this i don't know </S2>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<S4> but i guess it might be like that a case of this feminisation <S1> mhm-hm </S1> of a profession that one er (if) really <SIC> femininised </SIC> the the job <S1> mhm-hm </S1> the wages and the prestige [<SIC> felled down </SIC>] </S4>
<SU> [mhm-hm] </SU>
<S1> [yeah] and also <COUGH> i think well this is just my thinking @but er@ one of the i- er ideologies er in the soviet union was not to to reward or sort of estimate or value er jo- some jobs higher than others so people who were driving the metro <SU> [mhm mhm mhm] </SU> [for example were paid more or] less the same as everybody else <SU> mhm </SU> so er if you compare the group of doctors <SU> mhm-hm </SU> to other people who er who work in other jobs and professions you might not see such a dramatic ef- difference between er er doctors in the s- er in the soviet p- period or as you would like for example in the united states where er they had gate keepers to keep women out of the <SU> mhm </SU> out of the the education and of profession and also you know , the historical reasons </S1>
<S3> yeah that was just what <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i wanted] to ask </S3>
<S1> anything else anybody anything you didn't understand <S5> [the] </S5> [or] difficult words or anything at all </S1>
<S5> er i i read something strange on page 46 <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [about] er under the last ts- chapter <S1> mhm-hm </S1> of that page and there there there's written <READING ALOUD> legacy of unpaid work in the home perpetuates economic inequality in several ways <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it (xx)] women's full economic contributions it creates the double day for women workers and and it leads to perception that women are not dedicated to their jobs </READING ALOUD> this last thing i don't see how it is connected to the things before because i can't see how that leads to women not being dedicated to their [jobs] </S5>
<S1> [yeah] i think what they ref- er the author is referring here to is the cultural understanding of women and men <S5> @mhm@ </S5> and there are a number of quite convincing studies of finland for example and this is one of the the books from last year i want to show it to you because i think the cover is so beautiful <SS> [@@] </SS> [and also it's a very] brilliant book so so the author of this book er er was investigating er er statistics finland the the er national statistical office and er the history of that and how er how women and men have been classified in the statistics in finland <SU> mhm-hm </SU> do you know what a census is . <SU> mhm </SU> you do <NAME S4> [can you explain to all of us] </S1>
<S4> [i i i there's] it's like that er er government <S1> mhm-hm </S1> makes a list @of all the persons@ which they have in the country i mean <S1> [yeah] </S1> [that] someone knocks every door and checks <S1> [yeah] </S1> [how many] people there are <S1> [yeah] <S6> [ah] it's okay </S6> </S1> [and] and their age and <SS> [mhm mhm yeah] </SS> [the sex and] the job <SS> [mhm-hm mhm] </SS> [and how many tele-] television sets and things [like that also] </S4>
<SS> [yeah yeah] mhm </SS>
<S1> have you ever heard of <S4> [yeah] </S4> [such a] thing [you have] </S1>
<S6> [we got] [the same in france] </S6>
<S4> [yeah we] got the [same] </S4>
<S1> [yeah] <S6> [yeah yeah yeah yeah] </S6> [it's it's a way of putting together na- national statistics] so where they <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and in fact] in some countries they do er this and i think in finland too they do at least a part of the the er compilation of of the statistics as that you know interviewees go to homes and have a <S6> mhm-hm </S6> bunch of paper with them and then they er , then they er you know ask these questions what's <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [your job] and but of course in most countries they would er arrive at the same conclusions by putting together other official statistics <S6> mhm </S6> yeah <COUGH> but then i mean er since er you are interested in in mi- the middle east <S4> mhm-hm </S4> er <COUGH> er , yeah it's it's a different thing to go to er collect these statistics in where where the culture is completely [different] </S1>
<S4> [yes] of <SS> [mhm-hm yeah] </SS> [course because] in many countries people don't want someone er not from the family to talk to the women <S1> <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [yeah exactly yeah] </S1> [from the family even if] the women are covered <S1> yeah </S1> <S6> [mhm] </S6> [so] er there is a problem because many er censuses that were taken in arabic countries they actually don't say the truth <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because it was like that er the delegate of the government wasn't speaking with the whole family but only with the head of the family and <S1> [exactly yeah] </S1> [in fact we're (all something)] like that </S4>
<S1> and they might you know for reasons of saving face maybe <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [or something sort of] <SU> [(sometimes) (xx)] </SU> [forget to mention] the five sisters in the <SU> [@@] </SU> [you know] the five unmarried sisters maybe in the [yeah] </S1>
<S6> [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S4> [yeah like for] example something that i read just er <S1> [yeah yeah yeah] </S1> [just here nowadays that] sometimes the the fathers don't say that for example er his wife <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [er] is working <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and] she's er bringing some money to the to the home also <S1> yeah yeah </S1> because she's working in the home and then sells the things <S1> [yeah yeah yeah] </S1> [she she made or something] like that we just don't tell about it <S1> yeah </S1> so these labour statistics are also not very very good </S4>
<S1> yeah well what er merja was doing here she looked at the way er women have been classified into workers and non-workers , and in the 19th century for example there would be all these categories for men but then er women and children and the disabled and the prisoners and the elderly would er be er classified into the the classification of other or dependents or something <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [like that] and er she in fact goes quite a way back in history and then er goes on to look at er , look at how , these classifications are played out in the way jobs and er categories of jobs are classified in present day finland <S6> mhm-hm </S6> and she writes quite a lot about the cultural understanding of women and men <S6> mhm </S6> , so er <P:07> she takes an example from er from the interviews that she's conducted at the wo- at the work places then she takes an example from er georg simmel you know who who he was simmel <S6> mhm no </S6> er a german sociologist , who who was writing in the early 20th century , considered as a classic of sociology and then er , then some fiction yeah well er , <SIGH> and she arrives at this kind of a picture of a woman and this kind of a picture of a man so everything that er is concerned with how how these different authors write about women is sort of goes inwards it is sort of a understood in various texts over quite lengthy periods of the time that er women are suited to certain jobs because of er inherited or natural characteristics and er f- er steedman here er <COUGH> takes the example of the feminisation of the profession of teacher <S6> mhm-hm </S6> yeah and child-care <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [care] people who work in child-care for example , so i think that's what's what's meant by this this <S6> mhm-hm </S6> yeah . whereas men er have been considered as more objective and they have ways of externalising you know things <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and taking] things as things you know and women sort of involve more of their personality in the process anythi- <COUGH> anything else anybody <NAME S6> </S1>
<S6> no i think (xx) was really interesting <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and] quite kind of really difficult to understand but yeah it was okay [no problem] <S1> [yeah] yeah </S1> mhm-hm [mhm] </S6>
<S1> [er] can you say tell me something what does steedman say about segregation </S1>
<S6> which kind of segregation </S6>
<S1> yeah go on </S1>
<S6> ra- racist segregation or a gender segregation </S6>
<S1> er well i was thinking more in terms of gender <S6> [yeah mhm-hm] </S6> [segregation but can you] say something more about that </S1>
<S6> i don't know there is a often this kind of a glass ceiling er process er <S1> [yeah] </S1> [glass] ceiling segregation or <S1> mhm-hm </S1> discrimination and in fact it's really er interesting to to see that each time women enter massive massively er er in a in a profession <S1> mhm-hm </S1> each time this profession er is er er less paid after that and er not er not consider as good as er as er er er as during the past <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and then let's see and then so each time that er a women want to to get a really good job or erm erm kind of er ruling ruling job er er each time there is there is this kind of discrimination because even if er she's er as good as a man er she will not get the job because the the yeah because the the the people are yeah the chief will will er will er think that er probably should women not be as in (xx) er in a job as a man because of the children <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] and et cetera and house house work <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] so yeah mhm </S6>
<S1> yeah you mentioned the glass ceiling <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [and] then you said er that er when women enter <S6> mhm-hm </S6> sort of new <S6> [mhm-hm mhm-hm mhm] </S6> [areas or new professions] or jobs in greater numbers then those jobs become <S6> [yeah] </S6> [devalued] so these er i i ca- don't remember if er steedman uses er but i maybe you are familiar with the concepts of vertical <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [segregation] and horizontal <S6> [mhm mmh] </S6> [segregation] have you heard of that [before] <S6> [mhm-hm] mhm </S6> so vertical means that er women can advance in their jobs to a degree but not further and horizontal segregation means that er er the job markets are segregated in a way that there are typical male jobs such as engineers and then there are typical female jobs such as you know er kindergarten teachers or nurses <S4> mhm </S4> yeah <P:08> i i thought the the the the mhm the atmosphere in this text was sort of grim <S6> [mhm @@] </S6> [@@] but this is i- unfortunately this is the reality er in most countries , i checked this morning that in finland er women's salaries or wages are about 80 per cent of those of men's salaries <S6> mhm mhm </S6> 80 yeah <S6> mhm-hm </S6> , do you do you happen to know that percentage in your own countries or do you have any idea </S1>
<S2> i think that it's yeah sometimes it's really like this you said <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but not always </S2>
<S1> no no of course not </S1>
<S2> [but in general in general i agree] </S2>
<S1> [this is yeah on average] </S1>
<S2> yes i agree for example i worked in one company and i was in so i with computers <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and for example my salary it was lower that my <SIGH> er companion and he was man <S1> yeah </S1> not because n- no- of course it's not because he's man but of course he made some mhm other job <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [the other] work but anyhow he was his salary and other company if the men the sure they had a little bit <S1> mhm-hm </S1> higher <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [but] i don't know i don't know for example doctors it's difficult to say (why) doctors because they have the same <S1> mhm-hm </S1> sometimes , i don't know what about other countries but i think that in doctors and nurse they have quite low <S1> [yeah] </S1> [salary] now and anyhow it's doesn't matter if you are o- of course it's dependent of ki- er what kind of category <S1> mhm-hm </S1> doctor you are </S2>
<S6> [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] yeah yeah the level er of [i mean yeah yeah] </S1>
<S2> [level yes i mean] </S2>
<S1> and what your what your specialisation is i think in finland also <S2> [yes yes] </S2> [some of the like it] says here surgeons <S6> mhm-hm mhm </S6> are men or top surgeons </S1>
<S2> yes but i agree absolutely and entirely with opinion that better they take they give , job for man than for women and for example when you enter the university because in russia we have other system from here <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [we] have to enter the university pass exams and it's quite difficult to enter the university 'cause it's a we have to er for example we have one place and there are 2,000 people <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [on this] one place <S1> [yeah] </S1> [who] wants to study and [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [so you] have quotas </S1>
<S2> yes for example in moscow <S1> mhm-hm </S1> there it's a er million er city <S1> mhm-hm yeah </S1> and one of my friends she tried to enter to the university <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because she wanted be a an actress <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and there were <SIGH> two or three hundreds on one place <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] she just said that it was really difficult for woman <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [when] if she not young <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and if she er they have limit <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but if men not young <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but] he is men they take [men better than woman] <S1> [yeah yeah] yeah </S1> it's absolutely </S2>
<S1> mhm but then men have more roles in plays don't they </S1>
<S6> mhm-hm mhm </S6>
<S2> [@@ nah] </S2>
<S1> [think about] the sveve- seven dwarves for example <SS> [@@ yeah] </SS> [there's only one princess and all the seven little men] yeah </S1>
<S2> but anyhow they prefer men </S2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah] that happens in finland and the underemp- employment of very good actresses is quite i mean it's a problem [within that profession] </S1>
<S2> [yeah yeah] i guess more women want to be actress [@@ when men want to be actor (xx) maybe] </S2>
<S4> [yeah that's true that's true] </S4>
<S3> [they should grow that] beard @@ </S3>
<S1> yeah maybe or they should start writing whole new plays <S6> mhm-hm yeah </S6> or stage productions where all the all the roles are played by women never mind if the people are you know in the play are men or [women] </S1>
<S5> [yeah] prince and the seven dwarves' wives </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah something like that] <COUGH> </S1>
<S5> er isn't there any opposition against these things because i think in most of the countries there's laws on equality <S1> mhm-hm </S1> at things like that <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so don't don't women make big cases of it because they are less er paid for the same work <S1> mhm-hm </S1> than their male co-workers </S5>
<S6> yeah but these salaries are not public so you cannot compare <S1> yeah </S1> you you cannot compare in the same place you have to to make a meeting and to compare each er salary sheet to to see wheth- if the people don't know what can they do it's [not public] </S6>
<S1> [yeah that's] that's one <S6> mhm </S6> one very good point <S6> yeah </S6> and then er well er uh in finland in the the the trade unions meet with the employer organisations <S6> mhm mhm </S6> and then they er er negotiate for weeks and then they er it's very hard er er it's very very difficult to increase the the the wages or salaries and it said here in the text why it makes sense to pay women less <S6> mhm-hm </S6> money </S1>
<S6> mhm yeah to make more profit <S1> yeah </S1> yeah </S6>
<S4> (maybe) in some countries i guess where is a legislation of course it's very very new thing <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [just like] with the er sexual abuse in work <S1> mhm-hm </S1> sexual harassment i mean <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but er even in poland nowadays you can go to court and say er i earn this and my colleague from the same company who does the same <S1> yeah </S1> earns higher <S1> yeah </S1> <S6> mhm </S6> and of course it's very hard to go <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] you will lose the job of course <SS> yeah @@ </SS> and it's very hard to win <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but anyway] there is a legislation and there there are some cases of of er women who went to the court <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and <SIC> fighted </SIC> for their rights so i think it's it might be changed like this </S4>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S3> yeah we we had the [same] </S3>
<S4> [very slowly] but anyw- anyway </S4>
<S3> there was this er woman applying for a high position <S1> mhm-hm </S1> in belgium and she didn't got the job because yeah they wou- didn't want to er invest in a a woman who might get ga- she she can get pregnant <S1> yes </S1> so <SU> [mhm] </SU> [she didn't] get the job <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and] she went to su- yeah to supreme court <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and she] she won </S3>
<S5> [yeah] </S5>
<S1> [did she] get the job or did she get the compensation </S1>
<S6> [mhm] </S6>
<S3> [er that] i don't but i yeah the thing said that it was discrimination <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but] eventually you can't do the job anymore because yeah you made such a big fuss in the company already <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i think it's very hard then <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [to just] enter </S3>
<S1> yeah there there have been a number of cases not very many but a number of cases in finland where the the the company has had to to pay the compensation and then you know feminist er researchers er say that maybe you know the employees prefer to pay the compensation <S6> mhm mhm </S6> than to hire the woman okay because they can <S6> [mhm] </S6> [you know] you pay the woman er because the compensations aren't that high <S6> [mhm mhm mhm] </S6> [they are like] something like you know <S6> mhm </S6> maximum three or 4,000 euros so <S6> okay </S6> okay for example the university of tampere had to pay compensation <S6> mhm mhm </S6> to a woman who was er who applied for a job <S6> mhm </S6> , and they they didn't choose her but a less qualified man <S6> mhm-hm </S6> so they were you know ruled to pay compensation , it happens </S1>
<S3> was there any protest there [or just in yes] </S3>
<S1> [yes yes] yes sure </S1>
<S6> mhm mhm yeah but i i'm really looking forward to to seeing what what will happen in france for instance because nowadays er women are maje- marri- majority in er at the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [university] er except in a in in scientific er <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er areas er but where are majority in literature er literature and er er areas and everywhere <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and er for instant in my school we are 65 er yeah er 65 per cent of women <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and so i'm really looking forward what will happen in five years when they will get their diploma <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and they will compete with er with men when they will go to the university <S1> yeah </S1> er to to to get a job and to to go in a (plant) to to apply <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [for a job] and i'm really looking forward er if er will er if they will accept this situation because nowadays women are majority and <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and so] er if er i i i really wonder if er the er the plant where plants will continue to make this discrimination and if women er will accept that because <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [they get] the <SIC> diplom </SIC> they are equal er equal er with with men <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and so we'll see if with my friends i'm er i wonder how if i would like to to see them in ten years and to see what kind of job each person er has got and managed to to to have because yeah the ten first and the ten first er person in my school where are er se- er seven seven er women <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [so] i would like to see if okay there is only three men and to see what kind of jobs these three men <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [have] and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [er] what kind of job the seven <S1> [yeah] </S1> [women] have to see because of yeah mhm </S6>
<S1> when you say the ten first persons <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [in] your university do you mean the best [students] </S1>
<S6> [yes] the best students </S6>
<S1> okay <S6> [yeah] </S6> [so] you have a list of ranking the [students] </S1>
<S6> [yeah we do] </S6>
<S1> so you know where you go all the time </S1>
<S6> yeah but it's it's to go abroad we got this kind of classification <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] it's compulsory to go abroad and to make er </S6>
<S1> go what </S1>
<S6> to go abroad in a foreign country <S1> [oh yeah] </S1> [to make er] yeah and so there is this er competition <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [to] to know er what kind of place you can you can apply for <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [whether you want] to go in canada <S1> mhm-hm </S1> yeah </S6>
<S1> where did you want to go first </S1>
<S6> in sweden <S1> @okay@ </S1> @yeah@ well (afterwards i chose) finland in a nordic country anyway <S1> yeah [okay yeah] </S1> [so so] it's been (xx) </S6>
<S1> yeah , that sounds stressful @@ </S1>
<S6> yeah yeah yeah yeah it is </S6>
<S1> yeah but that would be a very go- very useful point of of er for somebody to do a <S6> [yeah yeah] </S6> [longitudinal study] to see what <S6> mhm mhm </S6> what are the entry level <S6> [yeah] </S6> [jobs] for these <S6> [mhm mhm mhm mhm] </S6> [people when they graduate and] what happens in five years what <S6> [yeah] </S6> [happens] in ten years what happens in 20 years <S6> mhm-hm </S6> because then you accumulate er you know the your mhm @uh@ , your er work <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [experience] and and expertise <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and then] how does that translate into money <S6> mhm </S6> and because the the the trade unions in finland have calculated that the with the wage differentials in finland er er whereas er er working class woman can earn in with the salary she earns in her lifetime er she can buy one house okay but the working man can buy two houses <S6> mhm </S6> right but with the case of academic employees the women still can only buy the one house but the academic er men can buy three houses <S6> [mhm yeah] </S6> [and so] yeah </S1>
<S6> mhm-hm </S6>
<S5> so that's the the the trade organisations who say that <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and how do they justify the difference </S5>
<S1> well they just calculate <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [they just] calculate they took the a- take the average er salaries or what can be known of the a- average salaries <SU-5> mhm-hm </SU-5> and then er they they put all that together <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [and] then they make the average and then they compare that to house prices <SU-5> mhm-hm </SU-5> and the the the price of the house used to be in that calculation it used to be one million finn finn finn marks finnish marks and that was about the the same a bit more than the french franc </S1>
<S6> mhm mhm [yeah approximately] <S1> [yeah yeah] yeah </S1> mhm . yeah </S6>
<S3> it's strange that they don't do anything about it like like trade unions and [such] </S3>
<S1> [mhm] well funny thing that you should ask i mean who rules the trade unions </S1>
<S6> yeah <SU> yeah </SU> [mhm mhm] </S6>
<S3> [well in belgium] quite like there was this company <S1> mhm-hm </S1> sabena the the [air-] </S3>
<S1> [oh] the air line </S1>
<S5> [the air line] </S5>
<S3> [yeah air] line </S3>
<S6> [mhm mhm] </S6>
<S1> [that went] bust </S1>
<S3> yeah <S5> yeah </S5> and all the girls were in the negotiations it were only girls <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it was so that was quite and a lot older men just adored them because they had something to and they had something to say <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and they were really aggressive and <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [good in] negotiation so er negotiating <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so] i think maybe </S3>
<S5> she did <S3> [that] </S3> [go] to the parliament [@@] </S5>
<S3> [no] yeah </S3>
<S1> er who </S1>
<S5> erm </S5>
<S3> inge vervotte </S3>
<S5> it was a [girl] </S5>
<S1> [can] you write it down her name [because this is interesting] </S1>
<S5> [she was] speaking for the <S1> [uh-huh] </S1> [union] and then the political party asked <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [her] and the she was elected <SS> okay mhm </SS> and i think [the best women] </S5>
<S3> [and the other one] </S3>
<S5> in a i think wasn't she the best </S5>
<S3> yeah [i think] </S3>
<S5> [of of] number of votes <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [she was] first or second </S5>
<S1> oh good that's interesting </S1>
<S3> and the other one who [also wanted (xx)] </S3>
<S1> [i'll i'll have i'll] look her up in the internet so , see the story inge ver- [-votte] <S5> [-votte] yeah </S5> yeah okay </S1>
<S4> well i think that er at least in poland <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [these] trade unions they mainly exist in a er bi- big factories <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] er like a women of er <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [miners or] something like that or people working for er er train company and the the problem is mainly in the private companies <SS> mhm mhm-hm </SS> i mean now most of the indus- industrial er industrial er enterprises are privatised <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [in poland] also <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but after the privatisation they all signed this agreement <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that they] will not change the conditions so and that and that and that so <S1> yeah </S1> it's it's it's not such a big problem i think but the problem exists in the private enterprises <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [mainly] because er in these enterprises just the employee decides about the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [conditions] every time and there are no no such agreements and here the trade union erm the or working unions worker worker <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [unions] they cannot do do anything because there are no union of er people working for private enterprises </S4>
<SS> [mhm-hm yeah] </SS>
<S3> [it's kind of] strange </S3>
<S6> [like] </S6>
<S3> [we] we have </S3>
<S1> you can think about this [er in your essay] </S1>
<S4> [maybe we will] have the ten seven years <S1> [yeah] </S1> [but now] there is no [anything like that] </S4>
<S1> [<NAME S5> you posed question] in your idea paper [didn't you] <S5> [mhm-hm] yeah </S5> i mean er so you can think about that i mean the the the labour markets you you had an idea about that so please see if you can comp- incorporate some of the ideas in your essay </S1>
<S4> of course when er huge factories were privatised <S1> mhm-hm </S1> the unions wer- that existed in these factories <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [they still] exist and they still fight with the private [owner] <S1> [mhm-hm] yeah </S1> but i just mean the the sector no not industrial sector which is highly privatised <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] these are lots of smaller enterprises <S1> yeah </S1> for (xx) usually </S4>
<S6> well in france i i think that er one of the biggest er trade union <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [was] ruled during a long time by a by a woman nicole er nicole nota i think and it [was a] </S6>
<S1> [nicole] </S1>
<S6> nota it was a CFDT CFDT [it was one of the biggest er] </S6>
<S1> [CS] -DT </S1>
<S6> yeah it was a yeah one [of the biggest trade u-] </S6>
<S1> [how do you spell her] last name </S1>
<S6> er N- N- er O-T-A <S1> okay </S1> yeah yeah and it was quite funny because there is a okay there are not a lot of people who are who are who belong er to a trade union <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [in france] only ten per cent <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and there is this competition between C- CFDT and CGT and once er the the leader of er C- CGT said we got CFDT er got er improved the situation and they got er discussion with government and they they managed to make a lot of er to to pass a lot of law and er the leader it was erm i can't remember her name he said okay she's a er she make a she makes a she made a lot of things but i don't sleep with minister as far as i'm concerned so i can imagine in front of the of all the newspaper <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that was] (xx) okay there is no improvement with my with my er with my trade union but i don't sleep with minister as far as i'm concerned it was incredible <SS> [@@] </SS> [i i] just say what okay i can i can i can say it i can and yeah i (xx) </S6>
<S1> yeah okay <S6> mhm </S6> yeah </S1>
<S6> mhm but that was a really scandal because <S1> yeah </S1> yeah when she (xx) (females) they were quite shocked </S6>
<S1> yeah <P:12> anything else that comes to mind from the on the basis of the text <P:07> i didn't pay that much attention to the percentages and such because er and i didn't er i didn't copy you the the the er the mhm 'cause she had these tables has these tables at the back of the book of the you know appendices how do you pronounce it there's something like women in the world labour force i just pass it this around so if if you would like to have a look at that but then , i had a look at the eurostat er home page and i found these statistics on europe so there's two papers from each <PASSING HANDOUTS, P:18> <SU> [(xx)] </SU> [did i make myself some] copies yeah , so you can have a look at how the <P:07> the rate of female employment this year employment rate females employed women aged 15 to 64 as a share of the total female population of the same age group <P:12> can you say something about er , do you have any comments concerning this percentage i mean if you compare the number of employed women to the number of the total female population or <S6> mhm </S6> er the employed people compared to the total population anything that comes to mind <P:10> percentage cannot ever be 100 <S6> mhm mhm </S6> it's never 100 . can you can you say why </S1>
<S3> but er is it the age </S3>
<S5> [15] </S5>
<S1> [no] no </S1>
<S5> no </S5>
<S1> it's it's it it hasn't got to do yeah it has got to do with the age as well yeah </S1>
<S6> because of the women ta- er would take care of their children </S6>
<S1> yeah <S6> mhm </S6> yeah well er yeah because er some part of the population is always outside of the labour <S6> [mhm] </S6> [force] so even for men it is considered that 80 per cent is <S6> [mhm] </S6> [quite] high i mean it's a super it means that all mhm mhm or nearly all men are in you know fit and healthy to go to work a lot of people are still students at the age of 15 <S3> yeah </S3> <S5> [(xx)] </S5> [they are still students at the a- the high] age of 21 </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S3> yes so that's already </S3>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S5> too late </S5>
<S6> [too late] </S6>
<S3> [and also] the retirement [the way yeah and <S6> mhm-hm </S6> nobody works till @64@] </S3>
<S1> [re- retirement exactly yeah , yeah] <S6> mhm </S6> or or people can be on disability <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [pensions] or you know they can be on sabbaticals <SS> mhm-hm [yeah] </SS> [er] men er men in finland go to the army i don't <S6> [mhm] </S6> [think] that's calculated as paid work and it isn't i know that for fact , so th- this gives you as a class a comparison of the of the countries <P:06> and and in the other one you have </S1>
<S5> 71 per cent </S5>
<S1> pardon </S1>
<S5> nothing </S5>
<S1> @what were you saying@ </S1>
<S5> no i was looking to sweden <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and] denmark <SS> yeah mhm-hm </SS> they have this really high percentage </S5>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S6> yeah all the nordic countries <S1> [yeah] </S1> [are on] this </S6>
<S1> but then the difference between finland and the other nordic countries is perhaps that in finland women are in full-time employment whereas in in in sweden for example er a large share of the women in the w- labour force have part-time jobs <S6> yeah </S6> so that means something like you know </S1>
<S6> it's the same in netherlands it's really common to to to have a <S1> mhm-hm </S1> share-time <S1> yeah </S1> yeah mhm </S6>
<S1> so if if er , i've i've i've shown you this book this is a book by and in fact merja who wrote about statistics she has written a chapter in that book about er gender and classification and er er classifications and and er statistics that also that book also had a chapter on collective bargaining which is the you know the the trade union and employee organisation er er negotiate negotiations that's called collective bargaining <P:06> so this gives you a sort of a time line over nine or is it ten years , yeah it's ten years and this can be find at the homepage of the eurostat and this is in part of that part of the that part of the net that is free for all </S1>
<P:12>
<S6> the change in ireland is amazing <S1> yeah </S1> yeah </S6>
<S4> mhm-hm <S1> yeah </S1> mhm yeah mhm-hm </S4>
<S1> does anybody know anything about ireland </S1>
<S4> european @tiger@ so-called </S4>
<S1> [exactly yeah] </S1>
<S6> [yeah there's] [(xx)] </S6>
<S4> [after they] joined the before they join- they they joined the EU and especially after they <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [joined the] european union they really made er lots of benefit <S1> [mhm-hm yeah] </S1> [out of that] and they er they developed this er modern er modern er high tech <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [companies] and they really from a very very poor <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [country] they became really one of the mm- mm- most er er rich countries in [the world i guess] </S4>
<S1> [yeah yeah] yeah so i <S4> [but] </S4> [think this] is the result of the economic boom </S1>
<S6> [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S4> [yeah] but they they were very conservative <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and] they still are [about the society] </S4>
<S1> [yeah they are] </S1>
<S6> [yeah because yeah] yeah women have not er don't have the right to to abort for instance it's forbidden even for er for er safe er (grounds) or something like that it's forbidden and even if they are raped <S1> yeah </S1> no way <S1> yeah </S1> you can't go they have to go to england and [that's a] </S6>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S5> sometimes in united states </S5>
<S6> yeah <S1> yeah </S1> [(xx)] </S6>
<S5> [(xx)] </S5>
<S1> [yeah] . and they only recently got the right to divorce </S1>
<S6> mhm-hm yeah </S6>
<S5> [mhm-hm] </S5>
<S2> [i-] i'm sorry in what country </S2>
<S1> [ireland] </S1>
<S6> [ireland] </S6>
<S2> er </S2>
<P:06>
<S1> any other observations </S1>
<S4> i was just thinking about the data for poland <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [there's only] one for one year 2000 </S4>
<S1> yeah i <S4> [not] </S4> [think] they they what they are yeah and there aren't that many er data that much data from the for the other <SU> mhm-hm </SU> new countries </S1>
<S4> but the rate here is quite low because of certain below 50 per cent <SS> mhm-hm yeah </SS> and i was just (guessing) that i would like to compare it with with the data for men <SS> mhm-hm </SS> because if you take into consideration an unemployment [in poland] <SS> [mhm mhm-hm] yeah </SS> and of course it touches women more [more than men] <SS> [yeah yeah] mhm-hm </SS> but still i think this data for men wouldn't be s- as high <SS> yeah mhm </SS> [in poland as as here in your country] </S4>
<S1> [yeah yeah yeah] yeah unemployment of course was one of the factors that that affects the percentage how high the percentage <S6> yeah </S6> can be </S1>
<S6> yeah because in france for instance i know it the average is er er 12 per cent er nowadays it's ten per cent but for women it's 20 24 <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so and er not including the the women who are at home because they don't want to to go to the unemp- er to the employment <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [market to] compete with men because they know perfectly know that <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [they] will not get a job anyway so they prefer to to stay at home so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> mhm <S1> yeah </S1> so if you are a women if you are young and if you are an immigrant <S1> mhm-hm </S1> @no way@ it's better to stay at home </S6>
<S1> then steedman said something about how how er , not all of women's er economic activity is not shown by statistics can you remember something about that </S1>
<P:08>
<S5> not sure </S5>
<S3> can you repeat er the </S3>
<S1> yeah er steedman made a comment about how how not all women's er economic activity is not shown in statistics , do you remember anything further about that </S1>
<S5> yeah housework wasn't included </S5>
<S1> yeah yeah exactly and that's for example er <FLIPPING THROUGH PAGES> bah bah bah bah bah that's one of the things that that er has be- this debate on including housework in the the gross national product <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [or whatever] er is has been an ongoing debate for the last er 30 years at least , and i'm proud to pre- present it to you a finnish solution to this so er finland er undertook er project under the eurostat of developing a satellite account of s- household production and i'll just pass i i only took one one copy of those but this can be found in the internet so if you'd care to have a look i i have in mind of of er sending estelle B freedman some e-mail saying that hur hur been it's been done <SU> @@ </SU> for your information it's been done <P:10> yeah she said quite nicely there that what women in fact lack one of the things that <S6> mhm </S6> stops them from advancing in their careers is is well there are these er horizontal and vertical ceilings or walls and then women don't have wives i i <S3> [@yeah@] </S3> [thought that] was nicely put <S6> mhm-hm </S6> <P:15> then i would like to <P:07> show you something more of er from from the european union this is the european agency for safety and health and work and er these are fact sheets that i printed out from the , from the homepage , and here they have <P:13> here they have er <P:16> they have er this is an example of gender mainstreaming so taking into account er that the that women and men are different so er taking in that into account in in all sorts of polic- policy decision making and and in how to improve in this case how to improve working conditions and for example er , when these er when occupational healthy and s- health and safety has been looked at it has been discovered for example that er , there is increasing er risk or or for for women to for occupational er to have occupational er problem er health problems for example in nursing or social work for example from violent patients and that was something that er has probably existed but it has not been taken into account before and i was quite happy to find these er fact sheets in the in the internet because it sort of gives you an outline er and it's a good good example for you too to to have a have a look at these and then think about er . in order to to to to you know be more aware of the of what should and can be taken into account </S1>
<EVERYONE LOOKING AT THEIR HANDOUTS, P: 1:25>
<S1> and paula is coming next week to to talk to you about the work that er the ILO has been undertaking <P:05> and here at the end of er you have , they have a special web site also on gender <P:34> quite surprisingly finland isn't doing that well on occupational health and safety i was in an er in listening to some lectures all day on monday and they said that finl- finland is sort of er , at the middle or sort of maybe a little bit below the middle or the average of of the the EU 15 countries in the incidents of of accidents and and , at work </S1>
<S5> maybe that's because lots of them are reported because i think , not in all countries accidents or things like that are always reported </S5>
<S1> yeah but in finland we always report everything so @@ exactly <S5> [yeah] </S5> [yeah] yeah that was your point sorry yeah yeah i don't know </S1>
<P:11>
<S4> yeah it's always surprising for me to to read that in the USA <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [for many] years and now gender is a bigger obstacle to get a job than the race <S1> [yeah] </S1> [even] in th- in the before the 60s <S1> [yeah] </S1> [it was] like that the black would er be more er has a big- bigger probability <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [of getting] the job than the women <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it quite surprised me </S4>
<S1> yeah , yeah they they in fact i think yeah which page are you on </S1>
<SS> [(xx)] </SS>
<S4> [it's] 163 </S4>
<S1> 160 yeah </S1>
<P:05>
<S4> in the last paragraph </S4>
<S1> yeah . white women in 1940 white women earned 61 cents black men 45 cents and black women 23 cents to the white male dollar <S6> mhm </S6> and in 76 black men earned 75 cents but white women 59 cents and black women 56 cents to the white male dollar </S1>
<P:07>
<S4> so i think first it looks like that still white women earns more but after war it's has changed </S4>
<S1> yeah yeah </S1>
<S5> which situation is the worst </S5>
<S1> pardon </S1>
<S6> @@ </S6>
<S5> which one is the worst , (have we) here </S5>
<S6> [but] </S6>
<S4> [maybe] a black woman </S4>
<S6> @yeah@ we should <S1> [yeah] </S1> [compare] the (socio-) unemployment rate er among er white er women and black men <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [to make] the comparison </S6>
<P:32>
<S1> so what would be your suggestions for f- how to improve the situation of women you suggested the collective bargaining thing for example that the labour unions should demand maybe make er more demands <S5> yeah </S5> yeah you might when you are researching for your essay you might want to look at collective bargaining with those er search words as well , and as i said here is er one article in this book about on collective bargaining anything else </S1>
<S6> need to to make all the salaries er public in each <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [er in] each plant or enterprise <S1> mhm-hm </S1> yeah to make to make a (xx) @and to@ to show all the salaries <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and that way all the people will know <S1> mhm-hm </S1> what the other one er earn <S1> [mhm yeah mhm-hm yeah yeah] </S1> [with the s- with the same diploma and the same er yeah same hours spent in their] in their job </S6>
<S1> yeah well er in this country the the salaries are freely available <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [if the] employee works in the public sector <S6> [yeah] </S6> [or] for the government <S6> mhm-hm </S6> in the state jobs i'm not sure if that's true for the municipalities <S6> [mhm mhm] </S6> [but we] all know how how much the rector of this <S6> [mhm] </S6> [university] earns <S6> yeah </S6> for example </S1>
<S3> three houses </S3>
<S1> pardon </S1>
<S3> three houses </S3>
<S1> yeah well a house and a boat in his case [i think] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> okay </S6>
<S5> er [as you said (xx)] </S5>
<S1> [and maybe something] nice yeah but then but if if <COUGH> if he was employed by by nokia for example <S6> mhm-hm </S6> he would have you know 20 houses so </S1>
<S6> yeah <SU> @yeah@ </SU> mhm-hm <S5> @@ </S5> yeah , yes </S6>
<S5> yeah in belgium they decided to do that too after there were some big scandals on <COUGH> wages paid to top executives <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [of some] organisations <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [like] the post and the top executive was fired <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] he got this <COUGH> really huge wage this [er compensa- compensation] </S5>
<S1> [severance yeah severance package] yeah </S1>
<S5> so and everybody was so , mad about that that the the government decided that all wages for top executives to the clerks <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [to be] public <S1> [yeah] </S1> [and also] wages for ministers <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] everything </S5>
<SS> mhm [mhm-hm] </SS>
<S1> [but then] those are matters of public record and then there there was this information directive from the european union also that that had an effect on how er i remember in this country i think it came into force in 2000 or early 2001 . anything else <P:06> <NAME S2> do you have any any ideas or good russian examples of advancing women's careers </S1>
<S2> er er it's difficult to say <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [i mean] , i don't know er more er last time it's m- more and more er popular and it's mhm that women she don't she doesn't live with men or and she has her own business <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it's] more and more <S1> [okay yeah] </S1> [popular] and it's so she is independent <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] before in the soviet union <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [we] couldn't live together just with men <S1> mhm-hm </S1> or had erm of course we had this situation that we er for example divorce or mhm just totally da- mhm doesn't have husband <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but in general it was mhm something , incredible unbelievable but you and ss- er that you don't have husband but you have a baby <S1> okay </S1> yeah and er so the the problems in this was such like for example er family erm mhm father was a drunkard <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but the woman she stays with our s- er she stayed with the with him <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] she doesn't wanna erm that other people society look at her <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [like her] she has hadn't man [er husband i mean husband] <S1> [yeah yeah] yeah </S1> but now it's other er situation and we it's very v- more and more it popular and popular now that you er live independent without any husband <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [without anybody] with baby and you have your own business </S2>
<S1> yeah okay so you have a lot of single mothers <S2> mhm-hm [a lot] </S2> [estab-] establishing their own [enterprises] </S1>
<S2> [yes] that's <S1> [okay] </S1> [true] that's true and also it's mhm you er can get good work <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but woman can get but it's very difficult because you have some connection <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i mean <S1> [right] </S1> [that] if you have somebody <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [which] can help you to get but for example it's dependent it's dependent on your education <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [of course] a lot , for example er economist you will find job good job without any er of course you i- it's good for you if you have <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [somebody] but anyhow you can find without problems <S1> [yeah] </S1> [job] like this <S1> yeah </S1> because it's new economy now <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [new] and everything new so <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [we needs] new economist <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [new lawyers and it's] something like this <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so , if you divorce <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's doesn't matter it doesn't means anything [n- nowadays] <S1> [mhm-hm] yeah </S1> but before <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it's] meant so much i mean you your life is , crushed everything stop but now it's it's other way </S2>
<S1> yeah , anything else </S1>
<S3> we've been promoting also a erm the same like in politics that <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [er] (xx) but also on the higher levels <SS> mhm-hm mhm </SS> i think , yeah because nowadays you see you still see that the same as in politics that in a factories or big companies <S1> mhm-hm </S1> all the executives are mostly men <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so , and even in schools and like [er] </S3>
<S6> [mhm] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] [because the head yeah the principal yeah] </S1>
<S3> [the princi- yeah the principals and] <S1> exactly yeah </S1> and teachers and professors <S1> mhm-hm </S1> are mostly men <SS> yeah mhm-hm </SS> or only men , so </S3>
<S4> you [can (apply it)] </S4>
<S5> [except if you're] in a school for social work </S5>
<S3> yeah in @social work it's all women@ </S3>
<S6> mhm-hm </S6>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S4> i think that what you said at the beginning the transparency <SS> mhm-hm </SS> is very very important <SS> mhm-hm </SS> just to know the wages <SS> yeah mhm-hm </SS> to <S1> [yeah] </S1> [make it] to make it public in <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [private] enterprises also because <S6> [yeah] </S6> [then] you can easily compare <S6> yeah </S6> and good law that would enable women to go to court and to make complaints <SS> mhm-hm </SS> and also just changing the the way people people perceive women [workers] <SS> [mhm-hm] yeah </SS> i i think that now it changes very very fast <S6> yeah </S6> because just women women just started to talk about it <SS> yeah [mhm-hm] </SS> [that] they have some problems <S1> [mhm] </S1> [like] sexual harassment or <S1> [mhm] </S1> [discrimination] er of wages and <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [things like that] they really started to talk about it so it's not so easy to to really discriminate [someone] </S4>
<S1> [yeah] <S6> mhm-hm </S6> yeah <S6> [yeah] </S6> [it's not] socially a- so acceptable as it <S6> [yeah] </S6> [used] to be </S1>
<S6> because the new generation at least <S4> [mhm] </S4> [the] the things are changing really fast and i think that nowadays i think that there will be no problem for men to be ruled by a woman but i think about ten years before ten years <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [ago] that was not possible but <S1> [yeah yeah yeah yeah] </S1> [today i think that men will accept that without any problem] so i think [(xx)] </S6>
<S1> [so] ma- male workers would have problems with a female [supervisor executive executive yeah] </S1>
<S6> [yeah yeah mhm yeah] i think that yeah in ten ten years i think that will be okay [no problem] <S1> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S1> yeah </S6>
<S1> have you ever heard of of a con- the concept er er equal er pay for work of equal value <SS> yeah mhm-hm </SS> you have <S6> mhm </S6> was it in [here] </S1>
<S4> [not] sure </S4>
<S3> no </S3>
<S1> also known as comparable worth </S1>
<S4> i i know it just like a slogan of <S1> [okay] </S1> [every] every <S6> [mhm-hm mhm] </S6> [feminist campaign] @in my [country]@ </S4>
<S1> [yeah] <S6> mhm </S6> comparable worth pay equity , yeah it's it's funny going er sort of er with this english english and then american concepts but they are yeah they're b- b- <P:28> yeah er er equal pay for work of equal value uh means er mhm er developing a system of of er determining er , wages and salaries in a way that er has a rather or very very detailed look at what the job content in actual fact is , and then then pay attention to the different er aspects of the work like you know somebody working in an office er if you include all the things that she is doing in her work and then then er trying to figure out how much time she spends doing different things and that and then trying to sort of er , give er a sort of an opt- er mhm , objective or try to make objective the way you measure that sob job contect content in comparison to to what for example an engineer's work a typical male job an engineer's <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [work] contains <S6> mhm </S6> , but this is utopia still <SS> @@ </SS> in finnish universities or the finnish government sector they've er they've started talking about er a salary reform where they want to do this er er have a look at the job content and and er such a thing and it's been going on for 20 years and it sort of comes up er here and there again but i don't know how systematic they are going to be in doing it and then er the women professionals are trying to influence the process by er by reminding the people who make the decision of what the job content may be for women and for men <P:11> and this is a method that enables taking into account the cultural aspect that we were talking about before so that some of the jobs are not so obviously naturally er culturally assumed to or women as workers are not assumed <S6> mhm </S6> to possess certain characteristics , because it's not an alt- ultimatum and doesn't work like that </S1>
<S6> yeah it was simone de beauvoir who said that er i i guess er we you don't you don't born er you don't born as a w- as a wife er as a as a woman you become er a woman with education </S6>
<S1> yeah female [socialisation] <S6> [yeah] yeah </S6> so you have socialised <S6> [yeah] </S6> [into] the role of being [a woman yeah] </S1>
<S6> [yeah with] the games and the toys and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> the (dishes) yeah and the small girls <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] the and the gun for for for men <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] that's a difference we try to to learn the the roles of social world <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [as a] baby which kind of role you have to play [in your future yeah mhm mhm] </S6>
<S5> [(xx)] <P:05> i think i saw (in telly) once about this socialisation and there were there was this family and they had a boy and a girl and er they were from the same age <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and they tried not to to take them to influence from other children <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's like the like the and just let them play er without giving them er , popular toys and stuff <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [like that] and at one moment the girl started playing completely different and the boy did without , any kind of influence from the other people <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [or surrounding or] there there was just one moment , where the girl and the boy separated and wanted to play other things <SS> mhm-hm </SS> so maybe it's not only , erm how do they say it er ne- <DISC CHANGE> erm space forms in erm er </S5>
<S3> they did this quite [huge research in england] </S3>
<S5> [they did this really big] research on er why girls don't score that huge on mathematics <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and ds- this </S5>
<S1> spatial whatever </S1>
<S6> [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S5> [yeah] you know </S5>
<S1> yeah what's the term </S1>
<S3> and they're <S6> [yeah] </S6> [better] [in languages] </S3>
<S5> [and it was] and then better really better in languages </S5>
<S1> mhm-hm <S6> mhm-hm </S6> girls <S5> [mhm] </S5> [did] better in [language] </S1>
<S5> [yeah] really <S1> yeah </S1> [(all the better)] </S5>
<S6> [i think we] have (there is a) fact of nature but i think it's the most important thing is socialisation <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [because] you can have disposition that you have to activate this disposition <S1> mhm-hm </S1> like [socialisation] </S6>
<S3> [yeah] called soc- [socialisation (xx) and everything include (xx)] </S3>
<S6> [mhm yeah mhm-hm mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S6>
<S1> yeah i've er @@ <COUGH> mhm yeah . i was i've er eh . yeah that was very good <NAME S6> <S6> [mhm] </S6> [what] you said i'm i'm writing it down </S1>
<P:04>
<S6> mhm-hm , i think that is the same at school if you there are some surveys with er people who are er a person who was er in a classroom and you can see the difference between the the the girls and and the boys and you can say also that er when there is a problem with a girl the parents always say okay you you have to to take an easiest a way er you have to to take that and sometimes it's really deva- <SIC> devaluarised </SIC> <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [compared] to other to to other way whereas for a boy if there is a problem the parents will say okay you have to try again you have to to to re-take it <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [you have] to make (xx) here but try to to to do well because it's better for you and yeah whereas this kind of (xx) for women okay if you if you don't manage to do it that <S1> mhm-hm </S1> really doesn't matter <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [you can] do something else or something is your er but for for men no you have to continue and take that way because it's more valourised and (xx) [mhm] </S6>
<S1> [so] er it's the mother's fault then </S1>
<S6> yeah yeah but probably why it's so institutenen [institu-] </S6>
<S1> [yeah institutionalised] <S6> yeah [yeah mhm-hm] </S6> [yeah well] er mhm i've er i've got a little boy <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and] he's six and i've alway- i'm always interested in well they have this new research on you know boys and girls <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and] and things er things like that and about the mathematical and spatial things when <S6> [mhm] </S6> [they] measure these things er well my son has graduated from the bigger legos to the smaller ones and you know now he has the patience to start building with the s- with the smaller ones <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [and may] more make more complicated er <S6> mhm-hm </S6> you know castles <SS> [@@ mhm-hm] </SS> [and whatever and] er well i have to help him but not as much as i used to <S6> mhm-hm </S6> but in my mind i've been thinking well they should have this spatial er test for the mothers <SS> [@@] </SS> [you know because] the lego er and and er construction toys like that sort of er mhm help i i'm sure it <S6> [mhm] </S6> [helps] the child to learn about perspectives and how <S6> [mhm] </S6> [to put] things together and how things are three dimensional <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [instead] of you know just pictures <S6> mhm </S6> pictures in books or you know <S6> mhm-hm </S6> but er <SS> @@ yeah mhm-hm </SS> <P:06> but then er mhm children have two parents you know <S6> [mhm] </S6> [so] i think what the the idea behind the you know the feminist movement or the women's movement is is to er , change the society in a way where both men and women are able to do what they like to do <S6> [mhm mhm mhm] </S6> [best] and abandon these sort of old out-dated and obsolete <S6> [mhm] </S6> [sex] roles and so er little kids also learn from their , from their both their parents and then but then they learn from the media and and stuff like that have you watched any finnish television [while you've been here] </S1>
<S3> [no] </S3>
<S5> [n-] no @@ </S5>
<S1> you don't have the [televisions] </S1>
<S6> [yeah] but er </S6>
<S1> you do <S6> yeah </S6> have you watched anything on the finnish television <S5> [yeah] <S6> [oh yes] sometimes </S6> </S5> has if you compared that to the french television anything </S1>
<S6> mhm i think er i will say that there are more women in the finnish television and <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [(sure)] yeah <S1> yeah </S1> (xx) [yeah] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] anything else </S1>
<S3> i know that i can't understand anything [(about it)] </S3>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S6> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S6>
<S1> [yeah yeah] well that's a problem </S1>
<S5> yes , a lot of commercials </S5>
<S1> a lot of commercials <SS> yeah yes </SS> yeah <S6> yeah </S6> there are two channels where there are no commercials <S6> [mhm-hm] <S3> [oh-oh] </S3> </S6> @@ so far there are two two [er] </S1>
<S5> [okay] yeah <S1> yeah </S1> public channels <S1> yeah </S1> okay , [it's the same] </S5>
<S1> [and they have] they have foreign films with subtitles [as well] </S1>
<S6> [yeah] i've seen them </S6>
<S1> <COUGH> well er , my son's father and i we are divorced and my son spends every other weekend with his father who lives in jyväskylä and then er but then er you know he goes there and his father picks him up and takes him to jyväskylä and then they have a nice weekend and then still my son would go well mothers do all the cooking and i said oh really do you go hungry every time you go to see your dad in jyväskylä of course not well who does the cooking i ask him and he says well daddy and i said well is that really true what you're saying so i'm i'm sort of show- pointing to him <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [where] that you know the everyday li- life the real life <S6> mhm-hm </S6> er differs from the from the cultural <S6> [mhm] </S6> [perspective] for example </S1>
<P:06>
<S5> in my point of view daddies always cook </S5>
<S1> what </S1>
<S5> in my point of <S1> [oh] </S1> [view] daddies always cook </S5>
<S1> is you [father] </S1>
<S5> [yeah] my father always cooked </S5>
<S3> @@ </S3>
<S6> [really] </S6>
<S1> [oh] </S1>
<S5> he was the house man </S5>
<S6> [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S1> [okay] a house husband <S5> yeah </S5> <S6> [@@] </S6> [that] i think that's the english word for it </S1>
<S5> okay [house husband] </S5>
<S1> [so] so can you tell more about your father <SS> @@ </SS> tell us more about your fa- father why was he er house husband or is he </S1>
<S5> he's still @@ erm he has more time to be at home <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so he works a day then he's at home works the night then he's two days at home <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [so] and every time it goes on like this and then he cooks he washes he cleans he does all the things <S1> [okay] </S1> [and] my mum is (out working) <S1> yeah </S1> and if they're together then still my father cooks </S5>
<S1> oh good </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S6> mhm-hm </S6>
<S1> yeah , my father never cooked <S6> mhm-hm </S6> <S3> no </S3> never </S1>
<S6> mhm-hm </S6>
<S3> my father can't boil an egg i think </S3>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<P:07>
<S5> don't you think that erm there's a lot of women who aren't conscious about this problem that they are less paid than their men co-workers . like you say like in private enterprises they don't know <S1> mhm-hm </S1> how exactly how many <S1> mhm-hm </S1> their men <S1> mhm-hm </S1> co-workers <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [earn] so maybe there's a lot of people who don't really know that the other earns <S1> mhm-hm </S1> a an er an a percentage more <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [than they] do so maybe they should be <S1> told </S1> told about it <S1> [@@] </S1> [yeah] <S6> mhm-hm </S6> so they [could er] </S5>
<S1> [i i] think they have a a pretty good idea because <S5> [really] </S5> [er] er well er the public sector salaries they are open you know e- everybody can find out how how their co- co-workers what they earn if they want to , but er and more women work in the public sector than men <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [so] there are less women working in the private sector but <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [then] they would get all this er er most workers in finland belong to trade <S6> [mhm-hm] </S6> [unions] or or employee organisations <S5> mhm-hm </S5> so they would get mail from their union saying well the average income in this and that job is er that much and then they can n- they can compare . i think they are really well aware of that <S5> mhm-hm </S5> yeah </S1>
<S5> mhm because i never heard anybody complain about it . @before@ </S5>
<S1> okay <S6> mhm-hm </S6> @@ </S1>
<S5> no </S5>
<S1> but you will [@@] </S1>
<S6> [yeah] [you will] </S6>
<S1> [you will] @@ </S1>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S5> (well) i don't know (xx) </S5>
<S1> mhm well , the the rector of this university by the way you were saying about women and social work he's a professor of social work i didn't know that i i thought he was a professor of social policy but he's not he's a professor of social work [yeah] </S1>
<S5> [oh yes] </S5>
<S6> mhm-hm </S6>
<P:07>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S1> anything else comes to mind , i was yeah er , er , i think it's been in france that they've er they've done something about the length of the working week <S6> yeah </S6> can you tell us more about that </S1>
<S6> about the 35 hours by week <S1> yeah </S1> yeah @oh (xx)@ you know they are they are g- they are going to change the law <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [now] because it's a conservative er the conservative party erm er party erm er which er which er won the election <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [last] time so now they are changing the <S1> okay </S1> the law which er it was adopted er in 1999 <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm by er the socialists <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] they er w- they had the majority in er in the parliament <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and the law was supported er mostly by er by er by a w- a woman er <SU> (xx) oh </SU> it's a it's it's incredible i've forgotten i've forgotten her her name it's er martine aubrey <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er who is er <S1> [yeah (xx)] </S1> [who is er she's the mayor of] my city </S6>
<S1> pardon <S6> [martine] </S6> [the mayor] of your city but <S6> [yeah] </S6> [wasn't] she also [er er] </S1>
<S6> [is a is] the minister <S1> [yeah] </S1> [of social] work yeah and that was er really difficult er really difficult to adopt because there is a erm all all the plant and the enterprise and the firms and the said she's er said er that er it will <SIC> discrease </SIC> the er french er competitiveness <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and so it was really difficult to to adopt but er the idea er the idea was to mhm to share in fact the the time and to to to allow people to to to to go er to to the market place <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and to] to get a job and to to <SIC> discrease </SIC> the unemployment <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [rate] so that was the idea but on the other side the conservative party said that it will it will not er it will not improve the situation because since er the firms and the plant er will have to mhm to employ people for just er 35 hours by <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [week] er their competiv- -tiveness er will <SIC> discrease </SIC> and so er they will be forced to obliged to an to to fire people <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and so there was this er and finally the law was adopted but just because there was er er financial (<SIC> incitation </SIC>) to to make the 35 hours and anyway it was compulsory <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so if you don't make this 35 hours you will have fine and so er but so it was adopted and in fact with it has created er it depends on on the on the on the figures er of course if they are biased or or not and so but i think it has created at least 500,000 une- employments but now [they're] </S6>
<S1> [new jobs] </S1>
<S6> yeah new [job] <S1> [yeah] yeah </S1> but now there is a crisis <S1> [mhm-hm yeah] </S1> [and @@ the] return of the conjecture <S1> yeah </S1> and so they want to since er it's the conservative party who's got the the power in <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [france] they want to change the law <S1> yeah </S1> and so to <S1> yeah </S1> to mhm to to yeah to mhm to (refine) the competitiveness <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] they they think it's not really good and w- w- we'll see i'm not sure whether it's a good solution to <S1> no </S1> to to change this law but <S1> yeah </S1> it depend on a point of view <S1> [mhm] </S1> [@your political@] point of view so <S5> mhm-hm </S5> yeah , i think so </S6>
<S1> but that would allow er people more time to do whatever </S1>
<S6> yeah but i in my point of view that was really good <SS> [yeah] </SS> [because] (xx) that we are an open an open market nowadays and we have to compete with <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [the united] state and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so] india and so that's really it's quite obvious that when you're an open er open economy <S1> [mhm] </S1> [you] have to compete with the other one and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so] of course er if you pay er if you pay an indian er boy er ten dollars by week what can we do we cannot compete with him that's impossible so , that was a problem , for women it was a really good thing because [they they could go] </S6>
<S1> [yeah and for men too] </S1>
<S6> yeah <S5> yeah </S5> they could go yeah and also they increased the time for er parental [er] </S6>
<S1> [parental] leave [yeah yeah] </S1>
<S6> [yeah yeah and] so for for for men <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [they] can take a now we can take a three months this <S1> mhm-hm </S1> three months so that's good , but yeah we'll see in the next election @@ i hope that people will </S6>
<S1> when's the nex- select- next election going to be </S1>
<S6> er in two- two-oh-nine [@unfortunately@] </S6>
<S1> [two-oh-nine] </S1>
<S5> two nine </S5>
<S6> er two- two-oh-eight or something yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [because] it was in two- 2002 [so yeah] </S6>
<S1> [yeah so it's] this year [so] </S1>
<S5> [okay] </S5>
<S6> [five] years er two- two-oh-seven <SS> @@ </SS> @maybe we can@ <S1> okay </S1> yeah , it should be the same for the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [president] but anyway even if the president is right er wing if the parliament is left wing <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that's good because the parliament's got the power </S6>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S5> but doesn't it increase the president's power if he's right and parliament's right </S5>
<S6> yeah he can make everything he want <S1> yeah </S1> he wants when the mhm borst- boss party <S5> mhm-hm </S5> are the same yeah now it's nowadays it's not the prime minister who <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [takes] er who takes the decision it's [(xx)] </S6>
<S5> [what's the name of the] prime minister again </S5>
<S1> [@@] </S1>
<S6> [erm er] er <S1> [okay] </S1> [i don't (xx) <SIGH> raffarin] jean-pierre raffarin , at least [(xx)] </S6>
<S1> [i think] we are done for today <S6> mhm </S6> thank you for the discussion oh thank you <NAME ELFA-RECORDER> for being here , i saw you making notes and having a look at the people who were talking this is for your <S2> okay </S2> yeah okay , marjo our web tutor prepared this for you , so this is about the the the i'm giving this to <NAME S6> </S1>
<S6> okay thank you </S6>
<S1> and <NAME S4> <S4> [okay so] </S4> [because you are] going to stay here for the whole year what about [you are you still] </S1>
<S2> [er] er yes [i'm yes] </S2>
<S1> [you are] </S1>
<S2> you are i am now so [i] </S2>
<S1> [please] take the test i mean how easy can it get </S1>
<S3> isn't it little bit </S3>
<S5> i i don't get it [so] </S5>
<S1> [you] don't get it </S1>
<S5> @@ no no i mean , you can do this exam <S1> mhm-hm </S1> at home <S1> [yeah] </S1> [with] the book </S5>
<S1> with the book <S5> mhm </S5> in front of your computer <S5> oh [yeah] </S5> [yeah] </S1>
<S3> you really <S2> [@@ okay] </S2> [no i thought it was] in a computer room or something </S3>
<S1> no no <S5> @@ okay </S5> yeah </S1>
<S3> oh that's [good] </S3>
<S2> [@@] i will think about it </S2>
<S5> mhm </S5>
<S1> [yeah why not] </S1>
<S3> [and it's two] credits <S5> yeah </S5> <S6> mhm-hm </S6> (i wanted) [four] </S3>
<S1> [you can] have the book [you can have the book] </S1>
<S4> [four ECTs] </S4>
<S3> how much </S3>
<S1> with you [when you are (xx)] </S1>
<S4> [four] </S4>
<S3> it's four </S3>
<S4> four yeah </S4>
<S5> no it's two credits </S5>
<S1> yeah it's somethi- er i mean it's quite a lot of credits </S1>
<S4> it's maybe two finnish credits and four ECTs </S4>
<S1> [yeah something like that] </S1>
<S5> [i think it was two] ECTs </S5>
<S1> maybe </S1>
<S3> i mean i'm going to drop out of @finnish just (take that)@ </S3>
<S5> yes </S5>
