<TITLE: Women's Studies Seminar 2: Female Body in the Third World Countries
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: women's studies
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD03B
NOTES: USEMD03A is part of the same course

RECORDING DURATION: 88 min 20 sec

RECORDING DATE: 13.11.2002

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 8

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 8

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

BS2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Arabic, English; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

NS6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (UK); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> okay <P:06> er , before we start with the papers i will just shortly give you some , general information and those who have already written their papers i won- er don't think that er this is how how should i say this is not these are just suggestions not not really <PREPARING OVERHEAD> . not so formal okay , these are by merja kinnunen we have this er we have a group called i don't know how to call it in english i tried to figure it out but it's something like splendid teachers it's <FOREIGN> mainiot maikat </FOREIGN> in finnish and er we we are going to make a book on er some ideas on how to improve the seminars and so on and we will publish it in the net , anyway she says that er er well you could perhaps when you when you are telling about this paper you could look these ideas here now and you can just tell them er you don't have to write all of this er i mean it doesn't have to er be present in your text in the paper so er how come these are the questions that generally comes to a teacher's mind how come this theme interests you what things about it amaze you what er what is er what puzzles you , and what is the problem that you want to solve which question er needs to be answered , er or you can always uh already restrict the area and tell the reader that you are answering only this questions this question but you know that there are of course many other questions linked to the theme and then you can tell tell us them er uh , er also you should er you should explain why your question is interesting it is not obvious that that you just take one question and then you kind of @@ er try to answer it because er , er because you could er it's good to kind of er er try to find out er explanations and argumentations on the on your paper er also what kind of means could we use in answering the question are there any previous studies which perspectives are important what kind of methods are used what kind of concepts are used what kind of theories should be used well this is now this is not for this kind of paper that we are doing here but if you want to kind of er develop this paper to an academic study then this </S1>
<BS2> that's okay then [if we okay alright] </BS2>
<S1> [yeah yeah yeah] , er what are the key words in defining the problem this is actually good and we could we could have used but now now we haven't so i don't know whether we still are going to do this er er kind of er s- do so that the others try to figure out the key words of the study because er the key words are good in that that when you go to the library you have to have key words in order to get knowledge on the theme that you are interested in , er how much work and how much time is needed in the study well this is not the s- the study study stuff is the definition of the problem strict enough er this is always good who are my audience to whom do i write , er then there are how to convince your reader and this is also i- this is k- now kind of a er i- is included in the first part of the pap- of this , paper er using authorities data data can be also own experiences and observations theories concepts methods previous studies also morals values and ethics as i think we see in <NAME S3>'s paper yeah , one part <S3> [yeah] </S3> [one part] so another thing how to comment , now if you have now not any questions in mind try to @take at least one of these@ the beginning look at the beginning of the paper how was the paper made interesting to the reader how was the reader taken within the er paper and er how did the writer argue or explain the problem oh problem it's er @spelt wrongly@ how did the work proceed what was done in different chapters if you have this kind of i call chapter also this one little part of a er i mean there can be different chapters in in one page they are perhaps subchapter- chapters <BS2> mhm </BS2> really yeah er what were the arguments for the solution er how has the writer used sources references and also this is interesting how is the writer presenting her himself is she or he intimate is she or he distant pondering surprising does he or she pr- surprise you in any way and er all these that we have also al- already dealt what was interesting what was unclear which parts were particularly successful and er and yeah . and then we can continue what kind of questions the work brought up are there new questions er and er . er how could the work be continued i think in in our context perhaps i leave this to now here , so if you have any help with these now when you are going to speak and comment that would be okay er i enjoyed both papers today because er although they are very different on the the basis of the argumentation your is <NAME S3>'s paper is very feminist and political and activist kind of paper i- i enjoyed it <S3> @@ </S3> and <NAME>'s is on the other hand theoretical and you have a er very exciting er er combination of two kind of viewpoints in that and i think we can we can start and i think <NAME S3> you can be the first one </S1>
<S3> yeah <S1> [please] </S1> [i will] start to say that i was surprised that my paper was feminist @one@ </S3>
<S1> @really@ </S1>
<S3> yeah [because] </S3>
<S1> [okay] we can discuss <S3> [erm] </S3> [it] then [yeah] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] i don't think that it is actually <S1> [oh okay] </S1> [because er] , i don't know i think everybody has read it so i don't need to present it but but the topic i can i was talking some <COUGH> for some years and i really like to discuss this theme and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> women AIDS and the third world is the keywords for my <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [studies] so . i don't know maybe if you have some questions i @will@ </S3>
<S1> @sure we had@ , er , yeah who would like to start . please anyone </S1>
<S4> er excuse me whe- when did you send erm essay your essay [er] </S4>
<S3> [monday] morning , you didn't get it </S3>
<S4> @yeah yeah unfortunately i couldn't@ <S3> [er] </S3> [i think] i i couldn't get it </S4>
<S3> i i don't know did you get <NAME>'s paper last week <S4> no </S4> no <S4> yeah </S4> so i just replied to all by <NAME>'s letter so if you're not name was not on it so i'm @sorry@ <S4> @okay@ </S4> [i just didn't check it] </S3>
<S1> [i didn't control] </S1>
<S4> okay </S4>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S1> so we will have to take you the paper <S3> [i have] </S3> [is there er] you have an <S4> [oh] </S4> [extra] copy [yeah that's good] </S1>
<S3> [because there's one] RTF and one (xx) </S3>
<S4> okay @good@ </S4>
<S1> so yes we should now control @control@ the <S3> [yeah] </S3> [list] i should actually control the list but i just <S3> yeah </S3> checked very vaguely that there are [enough names] </S1>
<S3> [a few names] @@ </S3>
<S1> yeah but then <S3> yeah </S3> then again i noticed later on that there was perhap- there was <NAME>'s name <S3> [yes] </S3> [<NAME>] who is <S3> [yeah] </S3> [not] with us so </S1>
<S3> i think it's just the list we got <S1> mhm-hm </S1> on the first few le- first or the second lecture </S3>
<S5> [yeah on paper] </S5>
<S3> [we got some list of] e-mails and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i think it's that one </S3>
<S1> yeah but there should be <NAME S7>'s name and </S1>
<BS2> didn't you send it three times and on the third time you said this was the correct one and all the <S1> [yeah] </S1> [e-mail] addresses were <S3> [yeah] </S3> [there] <S1> yeah </S1> so i think her name </BS2>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S1> okay so we are sorry that you didn't <S3> [@yeah@] </S3> [get it] and er but you could also ask <S4> @okay@ </S4> @the next time@ </S1>
<S4> yeah i i couldn't get your </S4>
<S3> and i didn't get <NAME NS6>'s but i read it </S3>
<S1> okay <S3> [yeah] </S3> [that's] good [yeah] </S1>
<NS6> [did] you not get mine </NS6>
<S3> no but i read it so i didn't write you anything </S3>
<NS6> oh </NS6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [@we have to (xx)@] okay er well you are not going to start then <SS> [@@] </SS> [because you didn't get it] but who would like to start </S1>
<S5> mhm i would like to make a very very short comment <SS> mhm-hm </SS> this is not this is fairly trivial but since my own own paper is going to be about words and and er how distinctive they are <S3> mhm-hm </S3> in the first paragraph you say that erm yeah HIV and AIDS er <READING ALOUD> fir- at first it was considered to be a gay disease <S3> mhm </S3> and now it is obvious that women are the main carriers of the virus </READING ALOUD> and i suppose you're implying that gay disease means that <S3> men </S3> homosexual men yes <S3> yes [mhm-hm] </S3> [er] but in this it i think you should sort of , be more accurate because gay <S3> [mhm] </S3> [means] men and women who are non-heterosexual so it you should say gay <S3> [okay] </S3> [men's disease] or something , but that's just fairly trivial <S1> yeah </S1> but [however] </S5>
<S1> [it's] it's also used in a way where gay is actually er where gay means actually homosexual man <S5> [yes] </S5> [i just] i i <S3> [yes] </S3> [looked] at er er jeffrey weeks er has written on wha- discontents on sexuality or something like that <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [this] yeah and er there there i noticed because i <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [i] also yeah was thinking that is is all this clear and er <S3> [@for me@] </S3> [i wanted] you to <S3> [yeah] </S3> [also] spe- talk about lesbian women <S3> [uh-huh] </S3> [and] bisexual women and all <S3> [yeah] </S3> [the] kind of yeah </S1>
<S3> no for me it's er er gay it means a homosexual man lesbian means homosexual women and homosexual means both </S3>
<S5> okay @@ yeah </S5>
<S3> maybe that's why </S3>
<S1> [yeah] </S1>
<BS2> [language] barriers </BS2>
<S3> [what] </S3>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<BS2> language barriers </BS2>
<S3> yes </S3>
<S1> yeah yeah okay </S1>
<BS2> well i have a question erm er when you put up this list about how to make your argument a lot stronger <S3> mhm-hm </S3> erm i was wondering in the beginning you talk about how er many women are forced to trade sex with basic necessities <S3> uh-huh </S3> <READING ALOUD> every woman who has entered the formal labour force are often required to serve bosses' and clients' sexual needs young girls do not receive education about their bodies </READING ALOUD> erm what are you s- talking about a specific region in the world or the women in general and i was wondering if can you back this up with any sort of you know i mean is this just your general knowledge that you are placing in the essay <S3> [er] </S3> [or] because i think you there's a major difference in you know how women are treated in labour force for example in the west and in the east or i think that needs to be clarified because young girls do receive education about their bodies well at least i have [as a child] </BS2>
<S3> [erm third world] countries [the title] </S3>
<BS2> [third world] , <S3> [mhm-hm] @@ </S3> [okay] but alright but i mean even that [is different i mean third world countries] </BS2>
<S3> [yes er this is] yes this is mainly about africa i should have written inside <SS> [yeah mhm-hm] </SS> [somewhere but] it's mainly about african [countries] </S3>
<BS2> [okay] alright </BS2>
<S3> i was trying to make one link into that er mhm i wanted you to read some article maybe not er for this time but it didn't work sorry i'm not very good at computers @@ <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that's er on prostitution it is really a great article where you can read er all the how women are forced to be a prostitutes and what's the <BS2> [yeah] </BS2> [reason] for what what are the reasons for that and in what countries it happens more often and so on <BS2> okay </BS2> yeah but er this is mainly about african countries sub-saharan countries <BS2> right </BS2> and all that region </S3>
<BS2> no i was just i <SS> [yeah mhm-hm] </SS> [i mean for me] third world doesn't it's not a definition i like to <S3> [yes] </S3> [use] because it doesn't really define much <S3> [yeah] </S3> [to me] so i'm coming from the third world but then again <S3> yeah </S3> there's many countries and different [(xx) educational systems found] </BS2>
<S3> [well you can make finland] if you want you can even make finland be a third world country actually but it's sub-saharan africa mainly [but some] <BS2> [mainly] yeah </BS2> some er data is from er mhm , asia or (xx) countries </S3>
<BS2> okay no i just </BS2>
<S3> mhm-hm </S3>
<S1> yeah that's er [i had] </S1>
<S3> [it's] just some mixture </S3>
<S1> it would be nice to have a map of course you [@cannot@ not er] <S3> [@@] yeah </S3> point out but er <S3> [yeah] </S3> [something] that would localise <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [more] or then you could just restrict if you have the data that is very specific <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [to that] kind but this is of course wider <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [political] kind of a even moral points i think you have here so so it's kind of a , it's partly in the developing countries and <BS2> [right] </BS2> [it's] partly in the er i- w- w- world of ideas i think <S3> mhm-hm </S3> so and this <S3> mhm-hm </S3> you should just say when it's here and when it's there and and but yeah </S1>
<S3> i di- didn't <S1> [that's yeah] </S1> [want to jump] from one continent <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [to another] so it <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [was otherwise] if i write this is from (xx) here here here here </S3>
<NS6> @yeah@ </NS6>
<S1> yeah yeah sure </S1>
<NS6> i read erm this last night i don't know if you read that for your essay <S3> not yet </S3> erm 'cause that's all on erm <COUGH> HIV and AIDS all across the w- <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [world] and chris clark who's <S3> yeah </S3> we we have chris clark don't we she <BS2> yeah </BS2> <S1> mhm-hm </S1> she's written an article in the but i liked how you erm you talked about population mobility which is gonna increase erm HIV (in) spread <S3> mhm-hm </S3> erm and like severe social and economic imbalances because it actually talked in here as well about the women like selling sex and <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [it said] the women in erm i guess mexico or is going down the central america could just to latin america how if you're migrating women are actually seen as accessible <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [and] that's the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [stereotype] that they're given if they're migrating then they're easy for the sex basically and that's how it's spread <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and the women think that this is like normal because they can't get get out of this stereotype <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but i thought it was interesting [how] </NS6>
<S3> [yeah] i was actually i am shocked to talk about southern america because er last year i was writing an essay on women's victimisation and it was about southern american countries that 96 per cent of all women suffer victimisation in their family , and i'm sorry i doubt it but i do not believe it yet i do not want to believe it yet and i think the same is with the opinion about migrating women that they are really easy to access and </S3>
<NS6> mhm it says here <S3> [yeah] </S3> [mi-] <READING ALOUD> migrant women are seen as women who are available or who could be open to having sexual relations in order to phys- physically take their migration (trajectory) , erm so-called support networks do not always protect women during the journey and they occasionally tend to favour transactional coerced and sometimes forced sex </READING ALOUD> <S3> mhm-hm </S3> but that's central america , going down <S3> [yeah] </S3> [to] costa rica </NS6>
<P:05>
<S1> so i would like to ask you about the . i also like to er look at the words and and the metaphors and er why is AIDS a mysterious disease when you start it's mysterious how do you how do you mean that or [what it is] </S1>
<S3> [because just] one day it appeared and it is and nobody knows a lot about it <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's some kind of question mark </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah but then again if you if you go through the data and all the literature and <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [er] it's it's huge now <S3> [yeah] </S3> [also] so it's it's yeah </S1>
<S3> it is it is but <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [nobo-] but there is not much information on it <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [everybody] knows that it is er not curable disease yet <S1> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S1> [and er] but where did it come from <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [and] how to mhm , put the end on it <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's er , nobody knows it <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and that's why it is a mystery </S3>
<S1> yeah yeah yeah er did er there are these da- data from then <S3> [uh-huh] </S3> [there] are two world wide web <S3> [yeah] </S3> [er] pages i couldn't find anything on this first one , this <S3> [why] </S3> [(xx)] i i d- @yeah@ i tried and er er with AIDS with HIV er V and er all i could er find was aid <SS> [@@] <S3> [no] </S3> </SS> yeah and @i was really@ i i thought yeah @@ <NAME S1> and computers [match made in heaven] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> er i think i have prints-out of these i'm not sure i have them in here <S1> [yeah] </S1> [but] it's really the @address@ </S3>
<S1> @yeah@ yeah yeah i believe you [but er] <S3> [yeah] , no </S3> i don't know what happened but are <S3> [(xx)] </S3> [these reliable sources] ho- how would you [how would you define] </S1>
<S3> [er this is a] the page of university <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and this is was some kind of er . research (er done) <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and that's i took only per cents from that part so <S1> mhm-hm </S1> they are more or less reliable i i checked on my country's AIDS er web page <S1> yes </S1> and er they were quite similar [yes] </S3>
<S1> [mhm-hm] yeah [so yeah good] </S1>
<S3> [and i've been checking] just exactly the number of women in my country having HIV AIDS and it was not that big but , we have a big quite a big change now because we found er a lot of infected er prisoners so <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [womens] in my country are ta- ta- ta- 64 out of 707 , we have 707 <S1> [mhm yeah] </S1> [HIV infected people] officially <S1> okay </S1> and <S1> [so] </S1> [64] are women </S3>
<S1> so it's <S3> [yeah] </S3> [a] male problem in your </S1>
<S3> yeah so it's just a few of them and </S3>
<S1> yeah also here i think i don't know the numbers [(was it)] </S1>
<S3> [24 per cent] out of all </S3>
<S1> yeah okay . yes . mhm <P:05> er </S1>
<BS2> <WHISPERING> it's too early </WHISPERING> </BS2>
<NS6> @@ </NS6>
<S1> what is , what would you say is the main question in your paper if you should say just one question that you are interested in </S1>
<S3> er , it was . maybe to summarise all it would be that er the only , possible prevention <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [in third world] countries in in sub-saharan countries <S1> yeah </S1> is er education for girls especially <S1> mhm-hm </S1> of course it is er very important for boys as well <S1> mhm-hm </S1> because it is not enough just to educate [only girls] </S3>
<S7 ENTERS THE ROOM>
<S1> [morning] </S1>
<S7> i'm sorry </S7>
<S1> welcome </S1>
<S3> [because] </S3>
<S1> [did you] sleep well </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S7> no i had a nice conversation about my book exam </S7>
<S1> okay <S3> @@ </S3> yeah sorry continue [<NAME S3>] </S1>
<S3> [yeah] and er if you educate only girls that means boys are left outside and and sometimes bo- boys will be a problem <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so they both have to be educated but as far as girls are behind boys so they have to be educated now more to reach the level of boys and then to go together </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah but then again the infrastructure in many countries can be can be how should i say or the the g- er for instance in i- in some parts er er don't now remember i'm sorry er women in africa <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [women] er or girls are afraid to go to school or or <S3> [yes] </S3> [they] cannot go to school because of there is a the possibility of that somebody rapes you or or [something else yeah] </S1>
<S3> [or sometimes it is not allowed] </S3>
<S1> or or you are needed for to do the work on the f- <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and that kind of things </S1>
<S3> er my major at home is social policy i'm sorry <S1> [yeah] </S1> [@@] er that's er one of the things that should be changed as well because it is one of the social and economic reasons why girls had a higher <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er rate of HIV infe- <S1> [yeah] </S1> [er er] , infection possibility and risk . of course you cannot change it but i think that education as such would help to change economic and social problems <S1> mhm-hm mhm </S1> i just name what what could be changed after you are educated there was some part er now i don't know it about getting to married later and getting better works and er more income in family and yeah <READING ALOUD> eradicate poverty and promote peace education decreases social (boundaries) and government increase family incomes and produces a larger and better prepared work force </READING ALOUD> <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so it's and all <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] it means after that girls would be really possible it would it would it would be really possible for girls to go school </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah , er , i would like to go to the page three <NAME S7> have you read these [papers] </S1>
<S7> [yes] i have , i know that i haven't taken <S1> [yeah] </S1> [(xx)] (but i think) </S7>
<S1> er , i would like to ask about the list who is telling these things to whom and er who is going to do the improvements so who is now in the who is the voice and who is the rea- [supposed reader] </S1>
<S3> [(xx)] <S1> yes </S1> er to whom i am telling this , to everybody <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] that is all active in health care so workers scientists teachers lawyers politicians and blah blah blah and [so on er] </S3>
<S1> [mhm-hm so] this is your ideas </S1>
<S3> erm er these are what i got from reading materials and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> what just erm come out and [what came out yeah so the] </S3>
<S1> [yes okay so you] have kind of er er synthesised or ho- ho- how <S3> [yes yes] </S3> [is it pronounced] yes yes yeah yeah </S1>
<S3> (something) <S1> yeah [okay] </S1> [taking the] main points and </S3>
<S1> yeah , yeah okay i don't er one thing that i'm i'm not sure if i er er know what they are support female groups what are those it is the fourth <S3> er </S3> point </S1>
<S3> that is er , there are some female groups like er <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [organisations] or some voluntary groups i don't know how they are called but <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and they are fighting in their countries and their even their regions for women's right for women's position in the s- in the <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [society] and they do not get really a good support from government from all the people they are just some ki- some kind of ignored <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and er they should be supported because they are working for women and working for women that means working <S1> [mhm] </S1> [for] (lowering the risk) </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah <NAME S7> do you have any question for <NAME S3> or <S7> [yeah] </S7> [comment] concerning <S7> [mhm] </S7> [this paper] you haven't of course heard what we have already spoken but , then we want we can say that a new one please </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S7> erm yeah one question what about educating boys </S7>
<S1> [mhm] </S1>
<S3> [i've been] talking about it just when you came that er now girls there is a gap between girls' and boys' education and girls have to er go to through that gap and to reach the level of boys' education and after we reach that level we we both have to go together educating boys is that's important as well </S3>
<S7> mhm yeah but what about erm educating boys in changing their social behaviour not erm . er if we talking about , improving the level of education of girls that does not mean that they won't get raped just because they're going on the street </S7>
<S3> that's why i'm telling you that boys have to be c- educated </S3>
<S7> oh </S7>
<S3> @@ </S3>
<NS6> i think it's more of a cultural thing there </NS6>
<S3> cultural </S3>
<NS6> yeah because you can't , their their social behaviour in the society is completely different to western <S3> [yes] </S3> [it is] within like their religion and culture that men are higher than women and that's how it's always been so it's gonna be that level of seeing it as simply (xx) access </NS6>
<S3> but it doesn't mean that it has [to] </S3>
<NS6> [no] it doesn't mean it's right but </NS6>
<S3> and it doesn't mean it has to be so later on </S3>
<NS6> but i think it would take a very long time for people to , because like in arab countries women are associated with honour and shame and <S3> [yes] </S3> [it's] it's all the women's social position it's really complicated @@ </NS6>
<S3> it's better to take long but it to happen some day <NS6> mhm </NS6> than just not to try to change anything and to say okay in this country men are higher than women and let it be so </S3>
<NS6> [yeah] </NS6>
<S1> [mhm] and this is i don't see why this paper is not feminist one what is <S3> [@@] </S3> [the difference] with the the the principles of <S3> [@erm@] </S3> [the] very traditional feminism and this paper <COUGH> i i </S1>
<S3> [i don't know i don't know er well i wa-] </S3>
<S1> [you said @you said that's@] perhaps your <S3> [yeah] </S3> [feminism] is a bit different but </S1>
<S3> well when i was writing it i didn't feel that it is going to be a feminist paper <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it's just a paper </S3>
<BS2> subconscious comes through here [these feminist tendencies] </BS2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> yes </S3>
<S1> yeah , alright i i think it's good i , er , have you read this paper </S1>
<S8> yes i have </S8>
<S1> you said it it's you turn [to comment] <S8> [@@] mhm-hm </S8> i'm urging people </S1>
<P:06>
<S8> er er . you said something about attitudes when the erm , i mean you talk about er . you know children and motherhood in this one too <S3> mhm-hm </S3> or something like <NAME> so that <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er , so then maybe you would like somehow try to make a difference in attitude when you said that children are so important and that you have to have ch- children , you know so so . and it's the same or it's er , you know @i don't know@ </S8>
<S3> [(i started to giggle) @@] </S3>
<S8> [so it's it is er] you're supposed to have children you have to have children <S3> [no] </S3> [and then] oh no i mean in the third world countries or so- countries or something so that <S3> [yes] </S3> [you] like improve your position social position or something <S3> [yeah] </S3> [like] like that so then . and it's a it's a paradox or something 'cause then you ha- you have to have children but then if you have have AIDS you still have to have children and then you don't think about that at all and then the children are gonna have AIDS too and it's like i i don't know so that's sort of a </S8>
<S3> but i think if you [get] </S3>
<S8> [do] something about that too 'cause </S8>
<S3> if you get [really] </S3>
<S8> [if children] are so important then maybe you should make make people realise that you just @can't do it like this@ i- they if they get AIDS anyway so then what's the point of having er point of having them so you have to [(xx)] </S8>
<S3> [but if you get really] good medical care it's a really low possibility for your children to get AIDS </S3>
<NS6> you can have your sperm screened or something [screened] </NS6>
<S3> [yes and] it depends if man has HIV it then it's sperm and if women has HIV it's HIV it's er only during birth but if you are having operation the possibility <SIC> lowens </SIC> to few per cents and </S3>
<BS2> that is a big problem <S3> [yes] </S3> [and i] don't understand this medication and training these african countries i mean there's been these big riots and demonstrations world-wide because of these big companies that are raising their prices and something like that so </BS2>
<NS6> the german </NS6>
<S3> even curing the AIDS is a problem and er AIDS countries got the the only part of the world af- african countries not AIDS countries got the permission er to sell er not i don't know how they are called in english but er big companies pharmacy companies are prod- er making medicine for people who have AIDS and it cost a lot of money and some other companies are just copying the medicine and it is a lower price and it is not legal to sell such drugs but in african countries they made it legal just because to be er more accessible for all the people </S3>
<NS6> yes that was the argument of the er johannesburg summit because they were arguing that for instance in england you can get these these drugs <BS2> [mhm] </BS2> [free] you don't have to pay anything <BS2> yeah </BS2> yet they can't get these drugs into africa even though there's like ten times more people have <BS2> [mhm-hm] </BS2> [AIDS] they haven't got the funding to be able to have this and that's a big issue like the education i think the medical <BS2> mhm-hm </BS2> supply if there was a better medical support then i think there would be less AIDS </NS6>
<S3> any better care i think would help to stop (the spread of AIDS) at least , not to stop but to minimise it , any better care medical social financial support from other countries and </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm . yeah er what are early childhood programmes . [@i'm just throwing@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS6> did i write it somewhere @@ </NS6>
<S3> no i think [erm] </S3>
<S1> [er] <READING ALOUD> to vo- avoid such a gender gap in education some <S3> [yeah] </S3> [things] could be done </READING ALOUD> </S1>
<S3> er early programmes for childhood that means , er that's all the talking about education about the children from er their first days you have to . it's again about changing their attitudes to women changing their position changing thinking <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that women are not worse that we are equal to men and <S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S1> and that's , and for boys and for the girls that has to be done </S3>
<S1> yeah yeah i've written here that this doesn't of course mean that men boys are not responsible <S3> [yeah] </S3> [or] taken within yeah , yeah er , perhaps er are there still comments questions </S1>
<BS2> did you mean by early childhood education as educate the children is that that's what your aim is that within school systems and [education] </BS2>
<S3> [even] at their home </S3>
<BS2> i don't because my mother is taking part of er working with children in middle-eastern countries </BS2>
<S1> mhm interesting </S1>
<BS2> and she's teaching them she's been with a lot of these boarding school girls of young age <S1> mhm </S1> and she realises the most most of her programmes fail because they go back home and they still have to live with these <S3> [yes] </S3> [constraints] and for her she's realised that if you actually educate the fathers <S1> mhm-hm </S1> to bring them together but this is very difficult in the middle-eastern society <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so she's] only gain- like succeeded with two families and there's about 40 girls and and she has a lot of there's lot of horrible stories about what's going on there and she's trying to educate them and it's not just about AIDS i mean that's not the issue <S1> mhm </S1> but i think what <NAME NS6> <NS6> mhm-hm </NS6> <NAME NS6> was mentioning about culture and stuff like that that i mean i don't wanna be cynical but i don't want to be <S1> mhm </S1> 'cause i truly believe that education is a powerful tool <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but i think that it it demands a lot more and that's in i mean in the long run it might work but in the long run a lot of lives are being lost and there has to be some sort of quicker movement being <S1> [mhm] </S1> [done] and i think that has a lot to do with the economic the economy <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and the medicine i don't i think it has a lot to do with the outside influence and power </BS2>
<S3> er problem is that i don't believe in adult education that it's er much harder to change adult person <BS2> mhm </BS2> who already has its er strong beliefs and strong values and attitudes and er changing children's attitudes is easier but it takes longer to achieve the results </S3>
<BS2> mhm </BS2>
<S1> mhm . yeah er let me ask you first what would you like to do what would how would you like to continue you had now the question that i think that how to solve women's AIDS problem <S3> mhm-hm </S3> and with education but very specific education and er how would you like to </S1>
<S3> continue [this work] </S3>
<S1> [if yeah] yeah yeah </S1>
<S3> i don't know i didn't think about it , it just from time to time i remember this topic and i write something on that and @@ <S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm </S1> but i never think that next time i will do some things more <S1> mhm-hm [yeah yeah] </S1> [i don't know i don't] know </S3>
<S1> er i would sugge- suggest @that@ er if you want to kind of er move from the er the er political <S3> mhm-hm </S3> thinking of it to a more traditional academic thinking er you could er i i found just two er references it's er this is i don't know even if this is er i only know tamsin wilton so i i thought this should be okay <S3> mhm-hm </S3> er it's called AIDS setting a feminist agenda it's edited by leslie doyal jennie naidoo and tamsin wilton 1994 it's focusing on women and sexuality and i think that's one <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [direction] where to go to er and an- another thing where you y- er you speak of m- er male dominance or there are at least implicitly this kind of things you could you could really er then also base it for instance carol paterman's the sexual contract is still good <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [book] on if you think political if you think er very widely the the system and and er and er how women and men are positioned and also you can continue to postcolonial questions of course , which should be whi- which could be , yeah er but then i want to still go to some details er er you asked er perhaps this this goes for a- a- all of you you could use subtitles it could be easier to follow just one or two in a short paper er for instance in page four you say <READING ALOUD> and now i will talk about educating girls </READING ALOUD> so there could be a <S3> [yes] </S3> [subtitle] it's like shou- shouting for it but i liked er that er now we see that <NAME S3> is speaking also although you have spoken to us all the time but <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [this is] the first time where you say i @@ that that that you show yourself er , ba-ba-bah , what did i want to ask not this not that , erm , mhm-hm mhm yeah er <READING ALOUD> in addition women are often abused </READING ALOUD> er this is page four <S3> mhm-hm </S3> there are no page <S3> [yeah] </S3> [numbers] but if you just count you come to it <READING ALOUD> in addition women are often abused to protect the macho image of men </READING ALOUD> er this sounds true enough but t- could you tell more about it </S1>
<S3> that is again about male dominance that if men want you have to do it <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [you] are just some kind of er additional part of men of <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [his wishes] and whatever he wants y- you have to you have to always be ready for hi- for his wishes to fulfil </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm yeah er yeah you could still go a bit further or deeper but that's okay er , er now you you talked about the role of medication that <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [that] could be a good addition to it but you you talked about it so that's okay , mhm , mhm-hm some of it some of this i don't know when i read i i really enjoyed the paper i i i saw you somewhere in a in front of a huge group and you were <S3> [@@] </S3> [speaking that we must] like like you were speaking the like you were <S3> mhm-hm </S3> it was no- it was not @written but spoken@ i don't know how to say it but perhaps it's i don't know did you get any of you get the feeling , mhm , yeah , any more comments </S1>
<S5> i would a bit @@ <S1> yeah </S1> i would er quickly like to ask about the mhm how to pronounce this U-N-AIDS <S3> [UNAIDS] </S3> [or UN-] UNAIDS er whose project is this </S5>
<S3> it is a united project er six organisations are involved in it that is WHO that is er united nations' department few of some other now i cannot name them all but it is er mainly it is directed by unite- by united nations <S5> mhm-hm </S5> and it's some six organisations famous and they are er inviting other ma- other organisations that could join that project to join them and to work for this issue </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm one thing that i also noticed that if when you if you want to study really study this issue you should er 'cause you seem to know a lot on the subject you should kn- show the knowledge to the reader so it's more <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [kind of a] er the reader buys it easier @@ let's say it that way , okay are we ready with AIDS , all the books that i know on AIDS are really old and , and i don't know what they they that i have some </S1>
<S3> even that if a book is quite new it was a book published in 1995 and i was surprised to find that AIDS in western countries er is a disease of rich people <S1> mhm-hm </S1> although </S3>
<S1> those who travel and then buy sexual ser- sex services [or no] </S1>
<S3> [no it is just] if you are rich that means you have a <S1> [better] </S1> [higher] risk yes <S1> yeah </S1> you don't even have to travel it's enough that you have a big er a lot of money on your account in bank that means you have a higher risk and it was i- a book in 1995 so it was quite strange </S3>
<S1> yeah , well according to this i shouldn't have any troubles @mhm@ okay here are the more <S3> [yeah] </S3> [er] specific comments that but if you want if you don't get them then er ask so we ha- </S1>
<DISC CHANGE>
<NS6> (xx) anyway , did i [(xx)] </NS6>
<S1> [was it] meant to be er seven pages and then 'cause er the the file that i got it included nine pages and then the the eighth was like this and then the ninth was empty and i thought oh my god if something is missing or not <SS> [@@] </SS> [because it has happened sometimes really] i know er a colleague of mine sent a paper that was 25 pages and all the seminar got only five pages and they were wondering that what is this <S3> 20 yeah </S3> paper about <BS2> oh @@ </BS2> yeah </S1>
<NS6> no it should [be eight] </NS6>
<S1> [no it it is] yeah okay then it's right i just wanted to control </S1>
<BEGIN PREPARING OVERHEAD>
<NS6> don't know how to work this </NS6>
<S1> sorry now you have to start again </S1>
<NS6> do i just turn it on here </NS6>
<S1> yeah @@ </S1>
<P:06>
<NS6> can you see can you read the @@ </NS6>
<S1> er if you just put the er first the the upper part and then that <NS6> [okay] </NS6> [part] yeah so we can yeah </S1>
<END PREPARING OVERHEAD>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION by NS6, NOT TRANSCRIBED, 9:06>

<S1> okay . thanks <NAME NS6> questions or comments i don't want to start <P:10> <NAME S4> it's [your turn] </S1>
<S4> [mhm] yeah @@ erm i think i want to make sure it's that about a lesbian mother and lesbian mother and this means erm you want to mean that single mother or lesbian couple </S4>
<NS6> erm i was more referring to , a single mother erm artificial insemination but it does use the couple as well <S4> mhm </S4> both are not really recognised and accepted as being parents <S4> [mhm] </S4> [because] it was a erm , i didn't really want to start bringing in the er partner because that would i mean if i start bringing in that i could've used erm another case study that i wanted <S4> [mhm-hm] </S4> [using] the male roles as well <S4> mhm-hm </S4> i thought if i started including the partners then it'll get really complicated <S4> [mhm] </S4> [but i] was referring to mainly the the woman erm who is the mother <S4> [mhm] </S4> [and] who's artificially inseminated i was mainly referring to her not being recognised <S4> mhm-hm </S4> but it also extends to the couple as well </NS6>
<S4> okay </S4>
<S1> mhm perhaps i can continue from that that how is this lesbian motherhood er connected to your questions </S1>
<NS6> how is what sorry </NS6>
<S1> er lesbian motherhood the problem of lesbian motherhood how is it connected to your <NS6> [to my question] </NS6> [to the questions] that you said here on the first page </S1>
<NS6> (i don't know) what's my first page @@ erm </NS6>
<S1> 'cause when i i read this twice and er er both times i think it kind of jumped <NS6> [mhm] </NS6> [into] the wh- into your line of argumentation but please [te-] </S1>
<NS6> [can] i just look at @your paper (xx)@ </NS6>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> @can i look at what i have asked@ [yeah] </S1>
<NS6> [erm] the role of women the lesbian motherhood <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i wanted to bring in the the second question <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and basically the female she's still a female and a mother <S1> [yeah sure] </S1> [when she] has a child <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm and i wanted to point out the fact that it's seen as acceptable and recognised when a woman with a man erm who has has a child erm which is like the traditional nuclear family that's always er seen as accepted , yet the women are still the lesbians are not tending to be accepted when <S1> [mhm] </S1> [it's] the same although she's artificially inseminated it's still it's still the same process she's still having a er the child she's still using the same nurturing techniques and things don't change <S1> mhm-hm </S1> within that so i wanted to bring in the , there's a difference in the societal conceptions of the female and her [body] </NS6>
<S1> [mhm-hm] you could have also written that but er then again perhaps an a subtitle would be enough here <NS6> yeah </NS6> 'cause it kind of breaks the </S1>
<NS6> because i was wondering whether to use them 'cause <S1> [yeah] </S1> [we] we're always taught never to use subtitles [so i find it very difficult and @@] </NS6>
<S1> [er so yeah] @yeah@ so it's okay yeah </S1>
<NS6> but it might </NS6>
<S1> [i understand] </S1>
<NS6> [i thought when i was] writing it could have been easy </NS6>
<S1> yeah okay , perhaps we go er make a round so <NAME S7> your turn </S1>
<S3> <WHISPERING> could i see </WHISPERING> </S3>
<S7> [erm] </S7>
<S3> <WHISPERING> [because i] forgot my printout </WHISPERING> </S3>
<S7> well honestly speaking i did not receive this text yesterday so i'm just reading it now <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so i'm not able to talk about it at the moment </S7>
<S1> er the text but well perhaps <S7> [erm] </S7> [from] the presentation that she if you <S7> er </S7> from there can grasp </S1>
<S7> i think that by the time the round goes i will have the finish will have finished reading the text itself so i <S1> [okay] </S1> [just] give me five more minutes please </S7>
<S1> okay so @@ next </S1>
<BS2> are we [er] </BS2>
<S1> [yeah] we are going around </S1>
<BS2> erm well i thought it was a really good essay i <NS6> [thank you @@] </NS6> [thought it's nice because] you gave this very strong i mean theoretical kind of knowledge backing i've read about mary douglas and the other ones i hadn't come across but erm i honestly don't have any kind of theoretical question challenging your ideas or anything but i just want to know your own personal opinion in your presentation i'm trying to find this precise point you talked about these erm , where is it conceptual boundaries between men and women and i thought maybe if you could just give me better idea maybe if you just i mean this like exactly like does sh- i don't but does she outline them <NS6> [mhm] </NS6> [or] does she i mean how does she bring up the <NS6> [erm] </NS6> [(question)] you don't have to this is not some sort of like (xx) </BS2>
<NS6> conceptual boundaries i can't remember it 'cause it's quite a long time ago that i <BS2> [yeah] </BS2> [actually] read the text erm but basically she's talking about the different concepts erm of men and women <BS2> right </BS2> and the boundaries of where they kind of cross , so these these like designated ideas of how soc- social roles should be played in societies <BS2> okay </BS2> and there's boundaries between the two <BS2> oh yeah </BS2> i think if that makes it any easier </NS6>
<S1> so it's from er you have taken this source from anthropology 'cause this of course this idea is not new it's </S1>
<NS6> no i mean [mary dougl-] </NS6>
<S1> [perhaps 4,000] year years old i mean in philosophy if you want to <NS6> mhm </NS6> for instance look at the that but but i i know what you're aiming to yeah so </S1>
<NS6> 'cause douglas talks a lot about <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [erm] purity and danger the fact of which can be linked into female circumcision quite well <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm we've erm the anomalous i won't <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [go into] the anomalous anomaly things <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [like that which] it's quite complex but it it relates into a lot of things <S1> mhm-hm </S1> to do with cleanliness and how people see di- have different ideas about what is <S1> mhm-hm </S1> clean and what is not clean </NS6>
<S1> yeah yeah and er i i love her idea on that er er especially on this dirt clean thing that societies that don't tolerate any dirt <NS6> [mhm] </NS6> [are] dead and i'm going to use it in in yeah my my critique somewhere @but@ <NS6> @@ </NS6> claiming that the society of sociologists is dead @partly@ <SS> @@ </SS> but anyway yeah </S1>
<S3> and i've got a question from about the presentation er men think they are mothers </S3>
<NS6> sorry </NS6>
<S3> men think they are mothers </S3>
<NS6> men think they are mothers </NS6>
<S3> yeah <S1> [@mhm@] </S1> [somehow] i missed that point </S3>
<NS6> karembola the karembola of madagascar <S3> uh-huh </S3> erm they believe that they are the mothers , they they know they're not but they imagine that they are as a form of erm , erm it basically it gives them rank and prestige to become mothers they see themselves as the mothers of society </NS6>
<S8> so are they like leaders or something or what does it mean </S8>
<NS6> yeah it bas- basically men see themselves as the nurturers and to become a mother well being a mother , erm , gives them power so when they have a child even though they know that they are not the mothers they take on this nurturing role but they don't the paradox is they don't actually nurture </NS6>
<S8> they don't do anything </S8>
<NS6> they @don't really do anything [at all they just say we're]@ </NS6>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> they just think </S3>
<S5> [claim all the honour basically] </S5>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> so then having a child increases your status or something </S8>
<NS6> yeah </NS6>
<S1> and it's not only in this culture there are now i have , i had a paper on that but er uh in french the the phenomena is called i don't know what this is in english so <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD, P:06> i think , and it means kind of that er that er er you , or , one feature is that er that when the when the baby is born the man is taken to a bed and he's fed well and he's he's like ill after having so much pain and and liv- delivering the baby in a sense and and it's yeah so it's it's not just that one culture but <NS6> yeah </NS6> this could </S1>
<NS6> yeah this <S1> [yeah] </S1> [this] i think what i was trying to get <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [across] was the fact that there's not one set <S1> [yeah] </S1> [erm] of performance it's <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [not] the western concept <S1> mhm-hm </S1> of the nuclear family and the mother <S1> [yeah] </S1> [being] the woman and the father being <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er like] the breadwinner and things and 'cause i i also wanted to use the inuit of northern alaska <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but i took that out because it dealt more with erm parenting than motherhood <S1> mhm-hm </S1> but the children in the ni- inuit ch- actually choose their own parents but it's usually within the family but they they recognise that they have biological parents and they still see their biological parents but when they get to a certain age they can choose i think it's like seven or eight they choose who they want their parents to be like <S1> mhm-hm </S1> staying over at a <S1> [that's nice] </S1> [friend's house] you can say i want you to be my mother and father and that's accepted </NS6>
<S1> mhm , great , so where is our round we jammed </S1>
<S8> don't know but i got a , er i didn't exactly understand this about the lesbians again this er mother child relationship as a companion or something <NS6> mhm-hm </NS6> does [it] </S8>
<NS6> [erm] , i was trying just , i was trying to answer the question of why lesbians want to be mothers <S8> mhm </S8> erm and , i'm not completely sure why that was just an idea of maybe why because whether it's , erm whether it's seen as socially accepted or it's a need <S8> mhm </S8> or it's just a part of the female body that you have to ha- have children like a nurturing bond erm or maybe it's just to get back at society and to say that this is a different way of doing this erm but i still thought that , if erm if it was a woman who was a lesbian and didn't have a partner erm or even did have a partner t- there's not the male role in there so the child erm can be seen more as a companion because it's brought up with the outside the traditional gender system so it can s- er be less seen as more of a structured family erm and different things ca- ideas can be applied er i think this is erm whe- where i live at home is quite a hippie town @@ and a lot of the lesbians actually are these hippies that had been there in the 1960s and quite a few of my friends' erm mothers are lesbians and i've sort of grown up with that and it's not really any different to me but i've always recognised the the children are seen more of as a companion there's more of a bond <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [endurance bond] with a lot of my friends and their mothers , <S1> [alright] </S1> [but] that's just sort of my experience that i thought i'd put in there @@ </NS6>
<S1> mhm i think the reader would have liked to known that too <NS6> @mhm@ </NS6> yeah , yes </S1>
<S5> well erm , i could talk for an hour about this lesbian <S1> [@okay@] </S1> [motherhood thing] but i won't i'm just i just want to state that in er in finland this is a bit different because artificial insemination is not possible here <NS6> right </NS6> and er because of that most , yes i would say most most of the lesbian mothers are actually women who have been in a relat- er relationship with a man prior to sort of <NS6> [mhm] </NS6> [engaging] in a lesbian relationship <NS6> [mhm] </NS6> [and] and most of the women also , well i wouldn't say most of but many of the women are not single mothers that they have a companion , and not that many women dare to sort of , go into the process of of of getting pregnant and having a child unless they are in a steady relationship because it's a big step to take and i think that applies for heterosexual single women as well that there are it's , there are not that many women that want to have a child alone but but erm what's that i know something about but i i would like to erm know more about how about female circumcision that how is female circumcision er seen as liberating liberating the body from masculine properties is it because of the clitoris thing or something </S5>
<NS6> erm you can see it within the mythological fact of the fact the myth is that the clitoris will grow like a penis </NS6>
<S5> unless you cut @it out@ </S5>
<NS6> yeah and @erm@ it's seen as liberating them from males , wha- what was the context of the sentence </NS6>
<S5> this this er the second page two in the second paragraph </S5>
<NS6> i'm just looking at page @three@ </NS6>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S5> yeah it's the </S5>
<NS6> page two </NS6>
<S5> yeah it starts with <NS6> [yeah] </NS6> [the] female body is recreated </S5>
<NS6> erm that i was meaning yeah through the mythology <S5> mhm-hm </S5> erm liberating the body from masculine i- i- it distinguishes what i was trying to pu- come across in there it's the symbol of the female identity , erm when i said that erm women's bodies are symbolic of female identity this characterises the fe- female identity <S5> mhm-hm </S5> within that society by liberating the fe- circumcision liberates them from the male which gains their female identity </NS6>
<S5> yes but er if if females are subordinate how would it be a bad thing to to let the @clitoris be where it is@ and sort of <NS6> well er </NS6> be a man </S5>
<NS6> in their actual society if you if you read what they actually say er going through the practices they believe that circumcision is the way of gaining their identity of increasing their status , they're not se- they don't see themselves as being submissive if they have circumcision they believe there's equality with men they can have sexual restraint erm and they can maintain er like private dominance within like the home sphere <S5> mhm yes mhm-hm </S5> but (xx) we could see that , there's erm a lot of male dominance and within the practice females females are subordinated but actually if you look in this society they believe they're not </NS6>
<P:05>
<S1> <NAME S7> </S1>
<S7> @@ erm , no like questions come to my mind as this this paper is really something and er yeah it's it's so good that i'd like i don't have time read it carefully to find any particular sentences that might be unclear but on the whole i don't have any <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [questions] , but </S7>
<S1> you liked it </S1>
<S7> [yeah i did] </S7>
<S1> [(i think) you] are commenting . okay well </S1>
<S3> i have one question it's not exactly <S1> yeah </S1> on this essay but er is there any country where er both er lesbian women could be parents of their child </S3>
<S5> yes in in the netherlands and er sweden i <S3> [sweden] </S3> [think] yes it's just recently and there are i think there are four or five countries in the world , which allow [it] </S5>
<S3> [yeah] [mhm-hm] </S3>
<S7> [and what] about er czech republic </S7>
<S5> that i don't know of </S5>
<S7> er i'm i'm sure that , male couples can adopt children </S7>
<S3> no i mean if a <S7> [yeah but] </S7> [les-] lesbian couple gives a birth to a child for example in finland only the mother who really gave a birth can be a mother <S7> mhm-hm </S7> and the partner is just a partner </S3>
<S7> well yeah but for the male couple it is impossible to <S3> [yes] </S3> [give] birth to a child that's why i'm relating it to adoption @@ </S7>
<S3> yeah </S3>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<BS2> what are the arguments given in finland for er erm i don't know if it's outlawed or it's just never been discussed this <S5> [yeah outlawed] </S5> [artificial] insemination i mean what is is it because of religious background or ethical or moral or is it more of a health reason risks or i mean i don't </BS2>
<S5> all th- no this is finland we have no health @risks@ <SS> @@ </SS> er it's it's because er , church and the state are not suppo- are supposed to be separate <BS2> mhm </BS2> but they're not </S5>
<BS2> [it's political yeah] </BS2>
<S5> [a- according to] history <BS2> mhm </BS2> er that because of history they have this sort of sort of joined historical background in a sense and er it's about ethics and morals and all that that it's seen that first of all er these kind of relationships are er they're immoral because they go against the bible and they are unnatural because they go against the laws of biology , and for that for a child to grow up in such an environment would be extremely unhealthy and it's all for the <FOREIGN> lapsen etu </FOREIGN> the er </S5>
<S1> advantage [for yeah] </S1>
<S5> [what yeah] what's good for the child </S5>
<S1> what's good </S1>
<S5> and it's seen as it's it's better for the child not sort of not to be , er there's a child is not let to be born in such family </S5>
<BS2> is this being contested i mean is there some sort of i mean actions going against this are people gathering or passing trying to pass laws to take away [(xx)] </BS2>
<S1> [yeah from] time to time <S5> mhm-hm </S5> i think er it kind of er first this law for that you can registrate your er how you say your </S1>
<S5> sort of partnership </S5>
<S1> partnership er i think er you cannot argue for too much in in in <S5> [yeah] </S5> [finland] you have to go li- er by <S5> [that was] </S5> [steps] yeah <S5> yeah yes </S5> with small steps so [that you can] </S1>
<S5> [was it] in this , er </S5>
<S1> it was [together] </S1>
<S5> [this spring] spring 2002 or was it 2001 <S1> mhm </S1> that it became possible in finland that you can register you can't <S1> [yeah] </S1> [get] married and you can't you can register yourself to be partners [with] </S5>
<S3> [mhm i] think it was last year </S3>
<S5> yeah same sex <S1> [mhm] </S1> [couple] as a same sex couple and er in the [sevent-] </S5>
<S1> [well it] can be called marriage although it er it has i think or not </S1>
<S5> legally not </S5>
<S1> legally not [but people are using it] </S1>
<S5> [it's er legally] yeah legally <S1> [yeah] </S1> [that's] er for es- for example the er sort of the christian party in finland <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er was very much against this er registration thing because er they say that now we have the right to , er almost like get married be like a married couple but in no way in this law is it said that it's <S1> [marriage] </S1> [it's] it's a marriage <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so it's a [question of naming things] </S5>
<S3> [but it's just a play] of words </S3>
<S5> yeah it's a play of <S1> [yeah] </S1> [words] play with words [yeah yeah] </S5>
<S3> [if you see different betwe-] between <S5> [but] </S5> [registration] and marriage so </S3>
<S5> yeah but i think i'll just wait another ten years because <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [in 71] er it er homosexuality in finland was no longer er criminal <S1> mhm-hm </S1> in 81 it was no longer seen as a mental disorder <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and in the early 90s we started a public discussion about the right to get married and now in in the beginning of the er 21st century we got the right to registrate <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so i suppose in another ten years we'll get the right <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [to] to have children </S5>
<S1> but i think it was in the in the movement sorry that we will come to [your question in a minute but] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<BS2> it's okay </BS2>
<S1> i think it was er there there was a mhm er first these two questions about getting having children and er and er getting re- registrated was were kept together but then it was noticed that <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [this is] too heavy <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [so] we had to yeah so </S1>
<S5> go bit by bit </S5>
<S1> yeah okay </S1>
<NS6> but it shows how things <S1> [mhm] </S1> [have] moved on because <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i'm saying about the artificial insemination my my friends whose mo- mothers are lesbians it was through with a male and most i think about four of my friends actually have dads as well <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so it seems like they just @tried it out@ and then decided aga- @against it@ erm and i don't actually know anyone who used has used artificial insemination i think it's a new concept <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but] things do change like er you're saying about the religion and state <S1> mhm </S1> 'cause i i'm in university in canterbury and i think it's quite funny i was reading that the archbishop of canterbury had said erm that it's now okay for young people to have sex before marriage <SS> [@@] </SS> [which is quite er an amazing] thing [and also] </NS6>
<S1> [hello] where you're living in @@ </S1>
<NS6> and i also and i see the archbishop of canterbury in <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [sainsbury's] buying his beer and things like that it's <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [it's] really strange <SS> @@ </SS> it just shows how <S1> [yeah] </S1> [things] move on and things become more open </NS6>
<S1> yeah and some people still live in the past but [it's okay if they don't yeah] </S1>
<NS6> [and there was a film on as well over] the weekend did you see [on saturday night] </NS6>
<S5> [yeah if if] these walls could talk too </S5>
<NS6> yeah </NS6>
<S1> [mhm-hm no i didn't no] </S1>
<NS6> [the l- of the how lesbianism has] er become more open it's got sharon <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [stone] and ellen </NS6>
<S5> degeneres </S5>
<NS6> yeah [and it's] </NS6>
<S1> [mhm-hm] </S1>
<S5> but that's er from a very much from an american point of view </S5>
<NS6> yeah <S1> [mhm] </S1> [but] it was quite interesting how it got to like the hippie era and then <S1> mhm </S1> present time it was quite quite a good film </NS6>
<S1> well to come back to your paper i would like to ask why performativity is not used in the context or when you are discussing circumcision , why is it especially i- in [the] </S1>
<NS6> [it's more] linked with kinship this performativity . gender performativity it's more of like er kinship performance and like to get like cross-cousin alli- alliances and bilateral alliances and it's all about the performance within the community </NS6>
<S1> mhm-hm but if you think it as an theoretical if you are , notion er . well yeah well i don't well i don't go deep [into that que- @er@ discussion because it's] </S1>
<NS6> [i was i was actually thinking how i could] link it into <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [female] circumcision but i've only ever been taught the concept within <S1> mhm-hm </S1> kinship <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i didn't want to make any mistakes in <S1> mhm-hm </S1> w- whether it can be seen <S1> [yeah] </S1> [within the] i d- i don't so i didn't </NS6>
<S1> so you have have you read the judith butler's er quite new er this year [the] </S1>
<NS6> [i i've] used your <S1> the article </S1> i've read judith butler before but i remember she was complicated when i read the last and i read one of the printouts the <S1> [yes] </S1> [introduction] but i think she's she uses words that don't need to be used and @@ <S1> [mhm] </S1> [she] could be a bit more [clear] </NS6>
<S1> [yeah but i] i mean one is especially on this question of er homosexuality and kinship quite new <NS6> mhm </NS6> i think in differences <NS6> [yeah] </NS6> [2002] but well never mind that's okay er what is the you almost an- answered this but but i want to answer you again what is the culture in the first part this women and circumcision and the second part the lesbian motherhood 'cause <NS6> [the culture] </NS6> [the cul-] culture 'cause you speak of culture but it changes </S1>
<NS6> well the fact that erm motherhood is the natural <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm but society always seems to take control erm and (it becomes) the nature <S1> [mhm-hm mhm-hm] </S1> [the natural with like] socially accepted values and how cu- like cultural norms <S1> mhm-hm </S1> it always comes across on the female body basically a female body is not always owned by her she's <S1> [mhm] </S1> [not] always making the decisions and even if she's making the decisions they're not always decisions that er , that her her own decisions even though she may <S1> [mhm] </S1> [think] they are because it's coerced you could say it's coerced by <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [culture] and society </NS6>
<S1> or i- if i put it more clearly where can we see this culture where can we we meet this culture </S1>
<NS6> i think it's everywhere </NS6>
<S1> er yeah 'cause i have the idea that er the first part is , er there is this western other world kind of division [here] </S1>
<NS6> [mhm] but still i still think it happens <S1> mhm-hm </S1> in western [societies as well] </NS6>
<S1> [yeah sure] sure [sure] </S1>
<NS6> [in] like the traditional family we see this nuclear family as being how it should be <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [but] how do we know <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that] that is how it should be <S1> mhm-hm </S1> how do you know we shouldn't have more wi- like men should have more wives and <S1> mhm </S1> because in fact the co-wives basically i- increase like the prestige of the family in many tribes because they look after the pigs which is seen as the wealth <S1> mhm-hm </S1> so there's all different <S1> [yeah] </S1> [arguments] for and against </NS6>
<S1> okay mhm . i li- er i liked the way you're very polite when you are <SS> [@@] </SS> [er writing] <READING ALOUD> i- i would like to address two questions </READING ALOUD> i i mean you could be more straightforward but perhaps it's your <NS6> [mhm yeah] </NS6> [culture] there so don't change [it if it] </S1>
<NS6> [i'm always taught to] be quite formal [in my essays] </NS6>
<S1> [yeah] yeah okay mhm </S1>
<S8> that's [the same in the english] </S8>
<NS6> [my english is (xx) @@] </NS6>
<S8> department too [they say that yeah so] </S8>
<S1> [the same that yeah] </S1>
<S8> i think that's like , <S1> [yeah] </S1> [how] you're supposed to write in english </S8>
<BS2> [it's academic style really] </BS2>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S1> yeah it is in if you want to go to a conference and you want that somebody really listens you and picks you up but h- mhm well not here but yeah let's not go into that er , i would like you to er use also first names if you use like sherry ortner why don't don't you then use michel foucault why is foucault foucault [why is ortner sherry ortner] </S1>
<NS6> [i don't know sorry that must have been a] mistake @@ </NS6>
<S1> no just er just if you i would like to know the whole name <NS6> [right] @@ </NS6> [it's just] perhaps i'm , er so the the references yeah i like the localisation of yourself it's on number o- on page three where you say s- say that <READING ALOUD> although i tend to tend to disagree with the feminist assumption of female ba ba ba i- i'm only able to find sympathy towards the accusation of male domination </READING ALOUD> you're very careful but at the same time you kind of put yourse- self into some debate er yeah i liked it er . mhm mhm mhm . and also foucault was missing reference </S1>
<NS6> i think foucault came through , i didn't actually have a book on foucault <S1> [yeah] </S1> [it was] things that i studied for my exam and i couldn't remember the book <S1> mhm-hm [yeah] </S1> [which] i'd used but i thought it was better that <S1> [okay] </S1> [i got it] in there and <S1> yeah okay </S1> i think there was another one as well the lewin i couldn't remember , i h- you see i have the notes erm that i used for my exams er but the lewin book i couldn't remember what the er date was for that , but i thought it's better to just put it @in@ <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and i tried to look it up on the computer but i couldn't access <S1> [yeah] </S1> [the] university library </NS6>
<S1> okay er mhm yeah perhaps we take this this reminded me a lot of these er old texts on sex gender divisions like for instance er gayle rubin's article er the traffic in women notes on the political e- econom- economy of sex from 1975 and and but perhaps we can go if we have some if we have time to go deeper on on sex gender division perhaps we could we could discuss then also this er , yes pierre bourd- i would call pierre bourdieu sociologist </S1>
<NS6> yeah <S1> yeah </S1> but he writes a lot of anthropology </NS6>
<S1> yeah okay yeah [just that's just er] </S1>
<NS6> [(xx)] but as to [sociology (xx)] </NS6>
<S1> [you give him a lot of] space so is he so important in your thinking or </S1>
<NS6> he is quite in anthropology y- <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [you always] refer to bour- bourdieu <S1> mhm-hm </S1> always gets you good marks @if you refer to bourdieu@ <SS> @@ </SS> erm but i study sociology as well but <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i i don't major in anything <S1> mhm-hm </S1> erm but i tend to do more anthropology than sociology my sociology usually [interlinks in] <S1> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S1> erm so i've studied it in sociology as well </NS6>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm yeah , yeah that i also said , that i said , mhm there are although there are some feminist politics in this paper too if you read carefully but er but perhaps from where you have detached yourself earlier but but then i i wanted the mhm it's kind of er , the end the the grand finale what would you say after all this in the ending is kind of missing i think or it's a good way to end if there is nothing more to say then point you don't [have to la-di-dah] </S1>
<NS6> [mhm i had so much more] to say there [that i couldn't] </NS6>
<S1> [okay so] that's your </S1>
<NS6> i knew that if i carried on erm then i'd get off the point of what <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i was trying to say because erm my teachers always told me that i did <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [actually] write feminist [essays] <S1> [mhm-hm] mhm-hm </S1> but they'd always penalise me for that <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [because] i'd always have my way of thinking <S1> oh </S1> so that's probably why it seems that i've made the point and then had to veer off and <S1> [yeah that er] </S1> [back it up] somehow </NS6>
<S1> yeah i have i have put here into the text where the feminism i think comes through yeah , [nothing else] </S1>
<NS6> [but overall] it was i'm i think my introduction and my conclusion would could be joined together <S1> mhm-hm </S1> 'cause i was basically trying to make the point that i'd said in my introduction <S1> mhm-hm </S1> that there are differences and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [you ha-] have to be culturally aware of that not everything is what we think is the norm <S1> mhm </S1> and that women are basically largely controlled a lot more than we think by society and culture and by the male dominance through this </NS6>
<S1> yeah , okay , thank you all , i think you will get some <NS6> [okay] </NS6> [er] some comments (xx) . yeah i i went through my what i have read now this , anthropology and er they're quite , well this i liked do you like henrietta moore's the the er passion for difference </S1>
<NS6> sorry what </NS6>
<S1> henrietta moore's passion for difference have you read </S1>
<NS6> i haven't (xx) er but i've </NS6>
<S1> she's an anthropologist [yeah] </S1>
<NS6> [yeah] i think i've come across it before </NS6>
<S1> yeah <NS6> [henrietta (duvall)] </NS6> [but] yeah if you if you i didn't it's it's now taken here so it's not here but er i think you could , she has the same kind of theoretical tone in her writing that you have so , so it reminded immediately </S1>
<NS6> yeah it could be good <S1> okay yeah </S1> it could be good </NS6>
<S1> any questions comments . i don't have anything else . who is next time </S1>
<S7> me </S7>
<S1> you are </S1>
<S7> and [me] </S7>
<S1> [and] yeah you two okay </S1>
