<TITLE: African Development History 1
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: social sciences
DISCIPLINE: political history
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD26A
NOTES: seminar includes presentations USEMP11A-B (USEMD26B and USEMP11C are part of the same course)

RECORDING DURATION: 49 min 56 sec

RECORDING DATE: 3.4.2007

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 18

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 10

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff and research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

NS3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (Australia); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Czech, Polish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown (Ghana); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

BS7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French, English (Cameroon); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Oromo (Ethiopia); ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Czech; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<INTRODUCTION TO ELFA DELETED>
<S1> so we'll we'll just do that quickly while while we are listening to the presentations and discuss them but anyway let's get going with our own programme we have two presentations today er and not a lot of two speakers so i think er naturally we'll go so that there will be more time for discussion er and i think it will be interesting perhaps to see the two presentations also in relation to each other one will be about democratisation in zambia's third republic and the other one will be about EU-aid to zanzibar and these are definitely interestingly related topics you'll perhaps find out and er first we've got <NAME S4> <S4> yes </S4> and he talks about zambia </S1>

<PRESENTATION USEMP11A by S4>

<S1> alright thank you <APPLAUSE> okay this this definitely requires some hot debate </S1>
<S4> (xx) bibliography </S4>
<S1> er is is there anybody in this room by the way who has at all visited zambia or read anything about this country ever i know some are but just for the record , what <SS> @@ </SS> wait a minute oh that's from the other course okay i'm mixing courses now so there's nobody here yes you <NAME NS3> </S1>
<NS3> oh no </NS3>
<S1> no </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS3> [yeah] </NS3>
<S1> no right [no] </S1>
<S4> [@are@] @you sure@ </S4>
<S1> we had we had two lectures in this course already where zambia came up a little bit but er it would be good to have somebody who has a little bit more knowledge about zambia </S1>
<S4> i was trying to (xx) one one boy from zambia but i lost contact with them with him </S4>
<SS> mhm-hm </SS>
<S1> well i will throw those those critical questions at you a little bit later perhaps then but er there's definitely some hair-raising statements i think here which need to be discussed but perhaps you would like to have this first what do you make of this presentation do you have questions </S1>
<S4> me </S4>
<S1> er i <S4> [oh yeah] </S4> [does the audience] have questions to the [(presenter)] </S1>
<S4> [okay] yeah , yes </S4>
<S5> yeah i want to find out er er you mentioned some people say imposition of er candidates in the constituencies imposition of candidates in the constituencies imposing candidates <S4> [uh-huh] </S4> [on the] local people </S5>
<S4> sorry yeah but i have to tell you @i don't understand this question@ </S4>
<S5> okay i'm saying in your presentation you mentioned that the party impose candidates <S4> mhm-hm </S4> on the con- constituencies am i right </S5>
<S1> do you understand the word impose </S1>
<S4> no sorry </S4>
<S1> to force [upon to force upon] </S1>
<S5> [to force somebody it it] was men- it's mentioned in your it is <S4> oh </S4> you definitely mention that in your presentation okay er the party choosing somebody <S4> yes </S4> and saying to the community <S4> [yes] </S4> [and says] this community (will vote this without) their consent that's what we mean by <S4> [yeah okay okay okay] </S4> [imposition] i think do you understand </S5>
<S4> i h- i hope so [so] </S4>
<S5> [okay] <SS> [@@] </SS> [so did you (find) any effect] on the on that party about the imposition of candidates did that er did that have any er effect in relationship in the winner of this parliamentary elections (xx) <S4> erm </S4> to the parties <S4> <SIGH> </S4> this is because er okay (xx) </S5>
<S4> @sorry@ </S4>
<S1> i think our guest is very happy about the er difficulty of er [@verbal communication that we have right now@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S4> occasionally er i also don't know how to answer the question </S4>
<S5> okay </S5>
<S1> can you reformulate the question </S1>
<S5> alright </S5>
<S1> i think you're [getting at something interesting with this] </S1>
<S5> [so yeah yeah i] yeah i want to ask some more about the (xx) imposition of candidates on constituencies in africa i don't know but er that is acro- across africa all (of the) parties especially those who are er in the government they try to impose candidates on the people <S4> mhm </S4> and this has negative effects on the parties themselves they don't realise it until they go out of office then they realise it but this is (er directly related) to ghana's (xx) which voted NDC out of office in the 2000 election that is why they lost (ma- majority) to NPP which is now ruling their country so these are some of the effects of imposition of candidates on constituencies </S5>
<S1> okay thank you <NAME S5> <SS> @mhm@ </SS> i've got a question related to this little problem we've just had actually and it's it's not at all yet about the substance of the presentation erm as as you all know we are not only a very er multinational and multi- multilingual and multi-ethnic class er we are also multi-disciplinary there's people from all different kinds of departments here and er mo- i think most of you i don't have the option to check from the lists er names which department <NAME S4> is studying in which is his master's er degree studies but from his presentation could you tell perhaps what is his major subject </S1>
<S4> [@@] </S4>
<SS> [political science] </SS>
<S1> and why do you think that </S1>
<S6> he's not he's not he didn't focus so much on like er anthropology or s- really social (xx) state and erm politics and political parties and elections and not (xx) the relation between citizens and the politicians and what is (xx) and the lack of civil society (xx) </S6>
<S1> any other idea <S4> mhm </S4> there were at least three people who said political science so you must have some idea @go on@ </S1>
<BS7> well he basically points out the (xx) he basically points out things like the (xx) </BS7>
<S1> okay you're very difficult to get going today it's not so sexy like china africa <SS> [@@] </SS> [(xx)] come on this is interesting actually i mean what do how do you mhm why do you think i'm asking this , maybe <NAME S2> has some @idea@ as a political scientist </S1>
<P:06>
<S2> i have many ideas <SS> [@@] </SS> [i i i better be] @be quiet now@ otherwise we this would be di- dialogue between us (professors) and and it's not the purpose of the course but er <P:07> you said there were three others </S2>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah three people said which d- department he's from let's not get stuck in this i wanna get at something particular i mean it's you all saw the presentation do you do you understand now the n- what what do you understand now about the zambian political system that you didn't understand before and where do you perhaps feel there is still a lack of understanding and perhaps you would like to ask the presenter to fill in some of that </S1>
<S6> about the reason er [er] </S6>
<S1> [do] you do you feel like you know anything about zambia now , it was a <S4> [(xx)] </S4> [good presentation] so you should know something i mean it was very clear </S1>
<S4> i think there there were missing some issues er maybe connected with this but not mentioned because i considered er this erm topic like democratisation of third republic really broad so i just decided er to take only political parties and to expand on th- this , so [maybe because (xx)] </S4>
<S2> [(xx) okay okay okay mhm] (xx) the idea of science is to (xx) and and focus on on something and <S4> [okay] </S4> [(xx)] okay </S2>
<S1> okay more concrete perhaps er two points you raised in the presentation you said that voters for or or opposition party people er also critical people like journalists have been intimidated in zambia and you said that there is a very weak democratic culture in the country er those two things would definitely be attributed to zimbabwe now how come zambia is not in the news all the time and how come zimbabwe is </S1>
<S4> mhm in my opinion in zambia it's er due to changing er that we've seen in er during elections in 2006 where i think there was s- <CHECKING POWERPOINT SLIDES, P:06> mhm <P:10> er yes er where , no it's not er possible to see the from that but well it's possible to see that er also another another erm political parties er are involved in erm in parliament so new political parties </S4>
<S1> well that's the same in zimbabwe they've got an opposition <S4> [yeah] </S4> [parliament] so how come zambia is not in the news all the time </S1>
<S4> er once more please </S4>
<S1> how come zambia is not in the news all the time the way zimbabwe is now , because according to your conclusion the political system in zambia seems to have the major attributes of the zimbabwean political system </S1>
<S4> (i'm not sure of it) . <SIGH> </S4>
<S1> just just think about it yourself i mean what is your own opinion from what you've read about zambia </S1>
<P:12>
<S4> i don't know </S4>
<P:06>
<S1> yes </S1>
<S6> er maybe like zambia has some regional basis maybe some ethnic basis that er like when we see in er lozi people many peop- er many the the parties maybe i'm just thinking that er are are getting their their votes from like some region or some chief and there is this traditional authority that's is influencing <S4> [(xx)] </S4> [the parties] and in zimbabwe actually it's er it's a big it's er mugabe's party who's controlling everything and (xx) er i think it's from o- in whe- in whe- in when in which in one (xx) states there is like one party who's regulating all the country and is enforcing what it wants er maybe in zambia it's more like there is this traditional authority that is lacking the traditi- the democracy and making like er something more more (xx) actually in the society there is not like this er repression (xx) </S6>
<S1> mhm good thought yeah erm i think in that case actually the two countries are maybe not so different er perhaps that is an interesting thing to look into but erm i think maybe there could be other interesting points that could be discussed further yes </S1>
<S8> another other interesting point about the the same point you raised <S1> mhm-hm </S1> er the way i see it what makes news is not the reality per se <SS> @@ </SS> if democracy as such is an object we are looking for many african countries would be er on on the news as as zimbabwe is <S4> [mhm] </S4> [but] what makes this also the international relation the international interest <S1> mhm </S1> i've read i've read some article talking about the white factor in uganda and zimbabwe er which break it it brings in the issue of land redistribution whereby er commercial farmers were dismantled from their land so er it is not the the presence or the lack of democracy that breaks or that makes the news the way i see it and i i i presume you'll everybody ag- agrees with that , but if i can ask one one one more question the situation does not seem conducive in zambia for democracy to evolve yes you concluded </S8>
<S4> yeah it's [my conclusion yeah that er] </S4>
<S8> [that it's not conducive] situation </S8>
<S4> maybe yeah it's getting better it's not enough </S4>
<S8> er what is missing or what are the elements </S8>
<S4> er in my opinion er the pro- the problem is that er still the same er party has its majority even now it doesn't have er like mhm mhm majority or presidential majority and parliamentary majority in this sense like er but but it's still the major party and all those parties are maybe somehow involved er or no are from this er party the ma- major one they found er the leaders er founded their parties because they did not didn't agree with some aspect yeah in this er MMD so that's i think erm is missing </S4>
<S8> you also mentioned the focus of one of the parties on agriculture and education <S4> yes </S4> er only one party i heard you <S4> er </S4> [what about the rest the rest] </S8>
<S4> [yeah only one party it was] this erm </S4>
<S8> what about the focus of the others in terms of development [policy] </S8>
<S4> [er] yeah it was this one yeah this UPN yeah yeah er i i write that er the MMD just someone stole has stolen this er education programme er from this party i don't remember which one it was i think it was this one U-M- U- UPND so <SIGH> generally it's the same i think </S4>
<S1> <NAME NS3> has his finger up </S1>
<NS3> just er <S1> [hesitatingly] </S1> [o- one question] how is zambia do- performing economically er do you know do you know is there substantial invest- investment or growth in into zambia these [days] </NS3>
<S4> [economically] i erm haven't er focused on that </S4>
<NS3> okay (xx) it might have been one of the reasons that for er the question before whether why zambia is not in the er news as much as zimbabwe is well is er zimbabwe's economic problems this m- this also has something to do with what <NAME S8> said before about the er farmers agricultural policy (xx) </NS3>
<S1> actually there's th- there's already a mistake in the question that i posed zambia is very much in the news but it's not in the news of political developments it's very much in the news of you know financial times kind of yeah stories because it is the biggest producer of copper on the african continent and there is a huge competition for its resources at the moment as we know from last week <COUGH> so it's very much in the news actually but not [not in] </S1>
<S4> [in political] mhm-hm </S4>
<S1> the front page BBC political news it was actually a @trick-question@ </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> @fine@ </S4>
<S1> sorry for that </S1>
<S4> well thank @you@ </S4>
<S1> i there are so many loose ends to tie up but i think one one is really er , er you know wi- wi- without being too too kind of offensive i i think i would have to say that there seems to be a couple of really big gaping holes of of or a kind of white-spots of knowledge on the map of zambia that you've drawn us and no wonder it's a it's a 20 minute presentation it's very difficult but to come back to the one question about the comparison of zambia and zimbabwe i mean what is the fundamental difference in the formation of the zambian state as compared to the formation of the zimbabwean state , do you know that [does can anybody comment on the] </S1>
<S4> [no because i don't know so much about] about zimbabwe </S4>
<S1> mhm yeah , er well how did zambia become independent in 64 </S1>
<S4> (i have to say) </S4>
<S1> er this is to anybody i'm not trying to grill <NAME S4> poor <NAME S4> <SS> @@ </SS> i'm just trying to get to the bottom of some quite [important points] </S1>
<S2> [yo- you know you know] there there were two rhodesias south rhodesia and north rhodesia er zambia is the north rhodesia and zimbabwe is this what used to be south rhodesia they were , two parts of of of the same colonial er deed </S2>
<S1> yes and zambia gained independence in 1964 through a peaceful agreement with the coloniser in britain which involved also the lozis as you perhaps remember from my lecture so there was a there was a written document okay you're independent now there you go how did zimbabwe become independent </S1>
<S6> there was a white ruling er [government] </S6>
<S1> [yes] yeah sorry </S1>
<S6> there was a white ruling government [(xx)] </S6>
<S1> [yeah] and how did that end </S1>
<S6> erm that's (xx) </S6>
<S1> well it it was overthrown with the barrel of the gun there was a civil there there was a a <S8> [guerrilla attack] </S8> [guerrilla war] which was won by er ZANU which is the party of mugabe so mugabe is old guerrilla fighter who came to power through the use of weapons with his army <COUGH> a violent struggle to independence as compared to zambia where it was a peaceful relatively democratic transition so and the- these kind of things cannot be left out in any kind of er attempt to describe anything that happens politically in any african country , i think that this is really quite important also for what goes on there now and then of course the story that yes zimbabwe was a settle- a white settled colony and there was a large white population also after independence and er the fact that they are in the news so much has a lot to do with that it seems yeah <P:06> there is erm <P:06> mhm how could i say this now i think i think it's an interesting case of er because also when several questions came you were really trying to find the answers in the numbers that you had and you you did very well in listing those numbers for us but erm i think this is an interesting example of er how with the tools of classical political science which are very well adjusted to analysing a political system of for example european democracy we have great difficulty of getting below the surface of a political system in a country like zambia if we if we don't have more kind of , more of a you know meat on the bone , <S4> [er er er] </S4> [i mean you] you seemed to be a bit puzzled about some of the questions you you kind of realised [this] <S4> [yes] yeah </S4> yeah , mhm . well that's just me who is not a political scientist speaking i [(xx)] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S2> [yeah but erm] but i i think it's very similar to (xx) if you try to understand economics by using only only <S1> mhm </S1> er economic me- methods that you can use er in countries where where you you get er reliable er statistics and and er er and and where where ec- economy is very formal very much formalised and (xx) </S2>
<S1> last question as a transition to the next presentation why did i er why did i in the beginning say that the two presentations we have today might be interestingly related keeping in mind that the topic of the second presentation today is EU-aid to zanzibar perhaps the upcoming presenters have an idea why i'm asking this @question@ or anybody else , i don't think that i don't think that link is visible yet because it didn't come out in the presentation but there is a link what is that link possibly you might know this <NAME S4> if you maybe just (xx) </S1>
<S4> what's that </S4>
<S1> anybody got any ideas </S1>
<BS7> democratisation as part of donor conditionality </BS7>
<S1> now can you say it aloud </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<BS7> er democratisation as part of donor conditionality </BS7>
<S1> what do you mean by @that@ </S1>
<BS7> well er ap- apparently that the EU-aid at a certain period erm at a by the 70s late 70s early 80s began carrying er conditions which supported the er greater political competitiveness er respect for civic liberties and a lot of other things but principally it was that this way assumed to bring forth er good governance so it was assumed that the demo- demo- democratisation was positively related to good governance and improved economic performance so we hope that the next presentation will be showing us that er we correlate these assumptions or support these hypotheses or maybe negate them </BS7>
<S1> @i coached him beforehand <SS> [@@] </SS> [there's no way]@ no i mean yeah that's that's basically what i was trying to get at i mean it all just try- trying to understand politics in zambia er and the political system in zambia and also the transitions from the various republics to the other ones er one very very big important chapter besides economics beside peaceful transition to independence is the fact that donor conditionalities and the influence of donor countries EU US and so on in politics in zambia is very very big it's really big </S1>
<S4> do you mean by european union also <S1> [sorry] </S1> [in zam-] in european union er in in zambia like european union [is a] </S4>
<S2> [yeah] (xx) </S2>
<S4> [okay] </S4>
<S1> [yeah] definitely and it's interesting also that one of the major issues that came up in the last election was actually the influence of china and er their type of donor aid as well which won the runner up er </S1>
<S4> may i ask er <S1> [(xx)] </S1> [as er european union] as a whole or just the states of european union like er single actors </S4>
<S1> (all states all states) yeah actually they they have their own offices and their own programmes but the thing is that nowadays if any EU country gives any aid to zambia er they always coordinate what they give with the other EU countries like for example germany says okay we'll do the education thing and then holland says okay we'll do the water thing and finland says we'll do the forest thing so they don't step on each others feet that that's a reality but there's also EU-funded programmes where the money comes from all the EU countries [and is] </S1>
<S2> [it's] co-commissioned an- and and in any case before er negotiatings they they they have a co- a mee- meeting <S4> mhm [mhm-hm] </S4> [together] and and then they can negotiate so so th- they know each other's opinions and and </S2>
<S1> i'm afraid now when it got really interesting we have to leave it there thank you <NAME S4> that was that was actually interesting thank you very much , so . <NAME NS3> and <NAME S9> i think that the presentation is is there on the desk <NS3> okay </NS3> where i left it <NS3> yeah </NS3> yeah <NS3> [was] </NS3> [next] to the </S1>
<NS3> thanks </NS3>
<S1> has either of you ever been to zanzibar </S1>
<S9> @no [not yet]@ </S9>
<NS3> [maybe] in in a previous life no no never </NS3>
<S1> have you ever read anything about them zanzi- zanzibar before this course </S1>
<S9> not really </S9>
<S1> mhm-hm okay </S1>
<NS3> maybe some novels that included something but [no i've never read] </NS3>
<S1> [you you did] read some novel </S1>
<NS3> @no no@ nothing specific about zanzibar no </NS3>
<S1> more like sinbad the @the sailor@ </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS3> [something yeah along those lines yeah that interesting] </NS3>
<S1> well let's hear it @then@ </S1>

<NATIVE SPEAKER PRESENTATION by NS3, NOT TRANSCRIBED>


<PRESENTATION USEMP11B by S9>

<NS3> so these are our points to generate discussion so <S9> [@@] </S9> [feel free to ask] questions or </NS3>
<S1> yes go for it </S1>
<P:08>
<NS3> if you wanna relate it to the last presentation too , i think <NAME S1> would like that </NS3>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> can you reformulate the last question wha- what you're trying to get at <S9> [yeah] </S9> [it's] a very interesting question but it's a little bit suggestive <S9> [@okay@] </S9> [also] so what what are you trying to say </S1>
<S9> er because i was thinking that because CUF party is supported by muslim most of most of majority of the muslim people and it demands the to separate zanzibar from tanzania and it dema- it demands depen- independence which would mentioned that it could more head to to the arab countries and this i was thinking that EU recognised the result of 2005 elections and if the reason why it is happy with this result is that it rather see CCM in the leadership of the country because it doesn't want to separate from tanzania it wants to have this union still do you understand </S9>
<S1> why do why would the EU do such a thing </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S9> well that's now what i'm asking [@would you think about that@] </S9>
<S1> [@yeah exactly@] </S1>
<SS> @@ yeah mhm-hm </SS>
<S2> yeah well the first question is really er close to to our discussion o- discussion on on on on er zimbabwe and zanzibar er on on er zimbabwe and er zambia er is is it could it b- be so that because er zimbabwe is the bad guy @er@ zambia is the or looks like the er good guy in in comparison </S2>
<P:11>
<S1> well what are your thoughts on this last point here with this which <NAME S9> has just elaborated on it it is interesting (that topic definitely) . this is one of the reasons actually why i was asking before you even started if you have ever yourself been to zanzibar er has has any or have you been to tanzania by the way <S9> no </S9> has anybody in this room been to zanzibar or tanzania </S1>
<NS3> [<NAME S2>] </NS3>
<S2> [i haven't] </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> no </S4>
<NS3> i plan on going <SS> @@ </SS> one day </NS3>
<S1> yeah , it it's it's a very radical experience to to cross er from the mainland to zanzibar i've only had this one time i was travelling there in 1996 er i guess after the after this policy change it was in late 96 actually i was there er it's it's like going to another country definitely i mean you have to have your passport and your tickets some kind of visa and that's when you have to as a foreigner but the whole feeling is like it really is like a different country it's it's a completely different place </S1>
<S10> in what way </S10>
<S1> because it is a completely obviously m- muslim culture dominated place you get there and the muezzins start singing the moment you step off the boat and it goes on all night and er people are going to the mosque er all over the place and women have you know they're wearing the what is it called hajab </S1>
<NS3> hijab </NS3>
<S6> yeah [hijab] </S6>
<S1> [hijab] yeah and so just just from the tourist kind of street-level point of view it's it's immediate- very very different when in dar es salaam where you have just been departed from you see a lot of muslim people but it's it's much more kind of sort of mixed in and it's it's much more it's muslim dominated in terms of architecture and and the sort of public things and then of course it goes a lot deeper from there there are flags of zanzibar suddenly everywhere and you just you hear very different stories there it's very interesting . but what is this big big deal about being afraid of this place kind of falling into the hands of the muslims </S1>
<NS3> well er i'm not sure if there's big fear er from tanzania's point of view it's they don't wanna lose this i mean of course they don't wanna lose zanzibar so the CCM being er a union party wouldn't want the obviously for the the maintenance of the union er from a european perspective i suppose there are certain benefits keeping keeping zanzibar with tanzania i mean i'm not sure if the primary motivation would be to keep it out of the hands of say muslims but there there is an interesting fact the once the er er aid was suspended in 1996 we read somewhere that there was some but there wasn't very much information on er a lot of aid coming in from er arab countries to kind of replace this the the aid that was stopped and this may be a reason that er , following the elections in 2000 which were also problematic that the the aid wasn't stopped stopped again there was no de- er conditions moral conditions imposed following the 2000 elections , this might be a possibility i'm not saying that that's how it was but </NS3>
<S1> you still didn't say the @T-word@ </S1>
<NS3> the t- t- t- <S9> [(xx)] </S9> [(xx)] well er there's that there's that one too but er a lot of especially other donors maybe like america er will be worried about zanzibar falling i- if it became separate from tanzania then controlling er controlling the area for terrorism and these kind of things </NS3>
<S1> why is zanzibar so important to tanzania why why don't they just y- you know can't let it go , they're just causing them trouble </S1>
<NS3> erm mhm <S1> [@@] </S1> [@mhm@] , <NAME S9> </NS3>
<S9> it's [tourists perhaps] </S9>
<S2> [but a but a state] usually don't give up @parts of the@ </S2>
<NS3> [well that's true] </NS3>
<S1> [yeah that that's] of <S9> [yeah] </S9> [course] true also <SS> @@ </SS> but er </S1>
<S2> why why don't fin- why doesn't finland give @åland åland to sweden@ </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> what were you about to say <NAME S9> </S1>
<S9> there's tourist (xx) it's because there's money from the [tourism] </S9>
<S1> [yeah] it's it's one of the biggest income earners of the damn country exactly and not only that it's also a major trade harbour i mean the whole textile industry kind of er of of of tanzania seems to be organised through through zanzibar i mean stuff arrives there and it's reorganised and repacked to the mainland it's it's it's a merchant island they're good business people </S1>
<NS3> they've got a long history in doing it </NS3>
<S1> sorry </S1>
<NS3> well i'd i'd hope that they are good at it they've been doing it for a long time the [merchants] </NS3>
<S1> [it was also] the major trade harbour for slaves of course <NS3> yeah </NS3> for hundreds of years <S9> yeah </S9> so it it it is an important er it is an important strategic point for entering into the african continent from the east , from the from the indian ocean and also from china and and yeah all of asia </S1>
<S2> and of course it was it was er nyerere's er to er to er nyerere's er dream of er uniting the er th- this er building up this this union of of zanzibar and and mainland many people in in tanzania still consider er nyerere as as as a patriot and (xx) </S2>
<P:13>
<S1> it it is an interesting case because it seems that multipartyism is is really er well it's a two-edged sword for african countries , <S8> [yeah] </S8> [in] some cases at least i hope we have perhaps something to discuss now finally come on i mean this is really a hot @topic@ <BS7> yeah i </BS7> so let's hear @something@ </S1>
<BS7> actually i i was kind of like just thinking of i was thinking of how this whole idea of democracy is can be read and re-read o- depending on where one stands we we are quite familiar with literature that shows that democracy should be these democratic states should do this but er it it must be in a context where there is multi-party er elections and this and that a lot of prescriptions along liberal understandings of democracy so in my forthcoming presentation i try to ask what is it how do those people who are really every day interacting within this new setting of democracy understanding how do they understand democracy how are they using it because we think that it just suffices to go and put a a a a vote it suffices to respect human rights it suffices and usually all this is blamed the absence of all this is blamed on the state so how do the local people understand democracy what we think might be undemocratic it might be quite a different thing for them they may be thinking that there is democracy going on as long as he is able to use multi-party elections to get a local (xx) for his village so th- those are certain things we we we we have some sort of a common understanding of democracy here which may not be comparable with what the local people we talk about here have </BS7>
<P:05>
<S6> yeah it's you you asked what what the what could link er tanzania to er to er zambia but when i saw the presentation i i think i it's more like somalia before it's there is invading in the 90s when the er a- actually there was a dictator in the dictatorsh- dictatorship in the 80s and the state was was pretty like all the administration was very weak and i think it's maybe the same here it's there is not like a democratic sphere in this country it's er it's artificial and this is different political er (power) were were like the a- a- (xx) with some er (xx) i'm not sure it's yeah if this this can be compared to er to zambia er in this way , it's more like political (powers were) fighting each other with some er with some democratic er (appearance) which is er been er which has been erm (xx) get the money from EU or other countries it might be (xx) the money er in the beginning of the 90s before er before the before the the states er get er (xx) </S6>
<P:08>
<S8> <COUGH> erm i just see a kind of similar developments in different countries whereby opposition party leaders and supporters are sometimes arrested and charged with rea- treason here and there in different countries i don't know whether this is a recent de- er development or whether it has been there for for long that also is taking place in ethiopia er , treason charging opposition leaders and supporters with treason is becoming common all across africa and , my question this is just to point out what commonalities i observed er in relation to also your point yes the aid conditionality as far as i'm concerned is acceptable i think you are very much pro aid cond- cond- er attaching of aid conditionalities er <S9> pro </S9> er in that sense that is good but my my problem er is how effective is it in practice </S8>
<S9> yeah sorry [you can] </S9>
<S8> [you you] can reflect </S8>
<S9> no i just wanted to say that i am for the condit- conditioning in the way that the a- aid should be gi- to contribute at the like not that there would have to be the govern- good governance but the condition should be the aid has to be used for the for the support of the infrastructure or the democracy just to use for the supporting the country not for the bad governance [or] </S9>
<S8> [no] the the channel it comes in the through what channel can you secure that it's really used for humanitarian reasons or or development purposes and so on how can you really monitor it er if that is possible erm okay the condition is okay , again my question comes with prescribing certain models of democracy in in in relation to his point , is it also possible that we can look at democracy from people's perspective , sometimes we we we are even considering democracy as very new to these africans very new they have never been er they have never had any clue of democracy at all but that is not the case there are very traditional er democratic systems (xx) in some cases so is it also possible that we look at fostering those kinds of democracy er in s- in stead of er prescribing aids along with certain models of democracy that is er my own reflection on the point </S8>
<NS3> but what we were thinking with this aid conditionality is is exactly that how how far is it how far is aid conditionality as we see it er imposing certain norms on east african states and how far is it kind of er us from our position telling these societies what democracy is and what it has to be so it is is conditionality going to a point where we are telling them what to do in order because this they need this er aid so how far is it being just aid conditionality to or money er money for doing what we want you to do that's that's why we asked the question should aid be conditional and [how how is it imposed] </NS3>
<S1> [it it's a very er] </S1>
<NS3> you raised a good question about how how to er how exactly it has to be implemented which is also <S1> mhm </S1> problematic </NS3>
<S1> it is of course a very interesting question but i think that your case actually illustrates that er in some cases at least conditionality also can can go both ways you know the conditionality involved here is not just that if you don't have good governance we won't give you money but okay you know if you don't give us money and we won't have good governance you know we'll do something else you'll probably not like <SS> @@ </SS> very much very soon down the road you will regret it and even though that is not said er i'm not suggesting that that is what what the young people in zanzibar are saying that is of course the thinking i mean by attaching aid conditionalities or just by the fact that aid is given conditionalities are established which go to some extent both ways , and it's erm of course a sort of more long-term conditionality of the donors it has er that has bound the donors to giving aid it has always been that they needed to be seen to be giving something in the face of their own populations perhaps demanding you know er that that yeah we don't just leave these people to die or fall off the planet er but there are also much more large scale interests of business and so on that have been going on for decades . it's it's really not easy to cut aid actually it's much much more difficult than it seems </S1>
<NS3> i mean even now the comparison with zimbabwe zambia and <S1> mhm-hm </S1> this case er obviously er aid in 96 was cut but not all aid so like you said it's very difficult to cut all aid it it er raises a question now in tanzan- in tanzania the the parties er supposedly reformed before they were told to so the party th- was they said they were going to manage their reform rather than reform [er] </NS3>
<S9> [manage the] cou- the party </S9>
<NS3> yeah they reformed kind of before they were told to because they saw the kind of trends of donor er condition conditions coming in in other parts of the continent so er but er er since 96 it has been been constant so it's kind of the political will behind imposing the aid is different than say in zimbabwe where a lot of it has been cut now b- because the situation has reached a certain point or zambia where erm there were issues with the er extraction of copper and there's erm i mean that they don't have many issues i don't think with donors and aid as much as say zimbabwe and zanzibar definitely </NS3>
<S8> can i make a point to <S1> [of course yeah] </S1> [this er] in in relation to pre- prescribing certain models of democracy on (xx) also that has given certain room for (errors) in those countries er they fail to conduct a very fair election that becomes public and then yes we have an excuse we are new to democracy so these are th- th- the leaders the leaders say this is new for us but actually there are very democratic systems going on in in the corners of the countries er and the people are not so new for the for democracy but so they they tend to convince the the donors that democracy in new is new in that country so there is a reason to continue to give aids they are exercising a very new system so that that has given also an apology for the leaders in in in some countries </S8>
<S1> i think one of the most interesting things that came out in your case was this row er about the voters' registration erm or the vo- voters' roll or how [did you call it] </S1>
<S9> [permanent] voter registration </S9>
<S1> yeah exactly <S9> [that's er] </S9> [because] that seems to have been the the real problem for contention which sparked the very violent demonstrations also this <NS3> mhm </NS3> when when this went down er just before the elections in such a obvious way that okay they're really now trying to kind of basically make sure that the result goes their way it was so obvious and then people got really angry </S1>
<NS3> that was the [result] </NS3>
<S1> [yeah] exactly that's how so i mean this is not just some kind of sort of abstract er thing where where people are just kind of like fighting about some big post somewhere out there and the people out there don't care i mean this is street-fighting you know er of of real people who have real issues who who really are angry so i think it's it's perhaps also interesting example that that that demonstrates that this sort of nitty-gritty of how political systems are maintained and the sort of management of you know the way politics are done and the way that they are expressed and the management of elections er is is really very particular and very different also from what we are used to because in finland you you could not possibly you couldn't do that you know because the voters roll is it is accurate because there is near 100 per cent control of the data of the population when we move from (xx) you have to register if you don't do it you know you very soon you know what happens all the systems shut down <SS> [@@] </SS> [@you know@] so it's er i think it's very interesting sometimes to also realise to that if one looks into this sort of day-to-day way of how democracy is managed er the importance of technical issues of how to maintain a voters roll one can see a lot about what really goes on and er it's it's no wonder that zimbabwe you know is still up and running and that they still can hold elections and that ZANU can still win them they they are able to you know manipulate the elections to an extent that they can do that but that manipulation also includes people fighting in the streets ruling party supporters against opposition party supporters so it's not just some sinister scheme out there it's really like the the election is (xx) directly months before it's actually held , i think that's really something to think about about this case you know which which one should <NS3> i mean </NS3> look for [the (xx)] </S1>
<NS3> [participation in the election] is quite high </NS3>
<S1> mhm-hm in <NS3> [in zanzibar] </NS3> [zanzibar] yeah mhm-hm <NS3> (xx) </NS3> , mhm-hm so people are really motivated to participate in democracy <P:08> er this was a little bit er a little bit more challenging i think this time because there was not so obvious perhaps er things that we've all heard and read about sometimes the really interesting stuff is perhaps in the details and i think that we we had two presentations that illustrated that very well it was really interesting i hope you weren't too intimidated by my [persistence] </S1>
<NS3> [trick questions] </NS3>
<S1> well i would like to say at this point that we're er only a little more than a month away from when you should start to hand in your er your essays so there's definitely no time to lose so start writing them now <SU-4> mhm </SU-4> now that you've all presented your (direct findings) okay see you next week </S1>
