<TITLE: Space vs. Time: Geography and Geometry in Roman Jakobson's Eurasian Phonology
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: humanities
DISCIPLINE: Slavonic philology
EVENT TYPE: lecture discussion
FILE ID: ULECD050
NOTES: continuation of ULEC040

RECORDING DURATION: 18 min 7 sec

RECORDING DATE: 6.4.2004

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: unknown

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 5

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: senior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 51-over

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<LECTURE ULEC040 by S1>
<S2> thank you and perhaps we can directly continue </S2>
<P:09>
<S4> okay i have er one question i mean this one question s- is is based er i mean partly partly on your lecture and also <S1> [mhm] </S1> [because] i had <S1> [mhm] </S1> [time] to read your book mhm <FOREIGN> hänen kirjansa tää on käännetty käännetty venäjäks käsittelee tätä samaa aihetta </FOREIGN> so er er i mean i was quite er er confused by the , idea i mean that er like er trubetzkoy and er jakobson both argue that th- there is this er ob- observer independent reality waiting to be discovered but then on the other hand i mean they also er er subscribed for for cultural relativism like this er fundamental difference between eurasian sciences and er then this er <S1> mhm </S1> er western european <S1> mhm </S1> science and er and this er eurasian way is good and this er <S1> mhm mhm </S1> western way is bad so i'm there's there's this kind of er er i i find difficult to un- understand because be- on the one hand you have this what one could er describe as naive realism or plato's realism and then on the other hand you have this cultural relativism <S1> mhm mhm </S1> so could you explain this er </S4>
<S1> yeah i think [there is] </S1>
<S4> [a bit] because i mean it's it's really interesting i mean because you have this realism er er or realistic ontology er together with er this er er relativistic er epistemology <S1> but </S1> or </S4>
<S1> i think for them <S4> yeah </S4> there was no contradiction at <S4> [yeah] </S4> [all] because once again look . if the so-called romano-germans think the way they think it is just because look . what is europe <DRAWING ON THE BLACKBOARD> this is europe you see you have er er peninsulas and er gulfs and in the middle the each peninsula you have mountains so let's say this is scandinavia this can be for instance er er the iberic peninsula it would be italy it would be greece so if the romano-germans think erm and divide er and split reality apart it's of course because they live in europe and the same way that er the parts of europe are different and separated from each other then all those people think that reality is made of (piece) of parts which are split together whereas if you are a real eurasian then you see that your reality is harmonious is total it is an organism but now let's take for instance er this is erm south-eastern asia you have india china and indo-china and china it is (of this) more or less the same you see geography is er a crite- <SIC> criterium </SIC> which enables you to to understand the mentality of the people so i think there is no contradiction er there is er very er old i mean you know in er in renaissance you have this neo-platonistic er er way of thought that reality is hidden in geography and that god has given different peoples the way (where) they live and they they not only to adapt themselves to the this territory but they chose they chose this territory because they're linked w- with it so no i don't think there's er a contradiction i think there is something of a contradiction between the the idea that er erm , reality exist before the scientists and the worry that trubetzkoy wrote his book on <FOREIGN> <NAME> </FOREIGN> because in this book you have an extremely modern way of thought which er we all learn at er the university that for trubetzkoy in 1938 er er a phoneme exists only because you build it build it inside ermer a system a a theory but now look , what is french let's take er jakobson and the beginning of the 30s you see the beginning of the 30s is not exactly the same as the end of the 30s so you should not take all those people as er a rock they have changed they have changed their minds especially er trubetzkoy er let him mhm mhm by (little) abandoned the idea the political idea of eurasianists but let's say er trub- er jakobson in 1931 in he spent three years from 1929 to 1931 er thinking mostly of er geographical phonemics and he says that look , this is estonia and on that on the eastern estonian (xx) you have a beginning of influence of a hard soft er consonant erm phonological er differentiation what does that mean it means that , despite the fact that the phonemes can exist only inside the system none the less the phonemes get er er (xx) material because you can extract them form er a system to put them on other side of the border and er jakobson has a very interesting er metaphor he speaks of a oil stain (xx) o- oil stain means that the phoneme can spread out like a stain of oil and er pass on the other side of the border and this idea is fascinating because in er classical er phonemics it has no sense at all you cannot extract a phoneme from er erm a phonological system you can do that you can take a potato from a heap of potatoes and the other potatoes it won't change anything for them but if you extract the phoneme from er a phonological system then the whole system will get changed that's what is important so for me most of what is contradictory in all this history is that at the same time you see , those people are really important milestones of the the whole history of general linguistics but at the same time they were in entangled in er er their er 19th century romantic er vitalistic metaphors and it's only little by little it's only er er after having contacts with all their colleagues that i think after the war er er general phonemics got possible but er , phonemics did not appear one morning in the head er of er jakobson you see that it's a very long history it's er erm er contradictory history because they belong to the intellectual world which to my opinion er er belongs m- m- more to german romanticism and to er western (socialism) we didn't have time enough to speak of goethe for instance to speak of the importance of <NAME OF A BOOK> er in er german romanticism to to see how the the idea of shape and the idea of type it is important i think that all that , can be explained by a mi- mixture which is typical of russian intellectuals a mixture of neo-platonism and er german romanticism which and of course it has nothing to do with ferdinand de saussure because it is another intellectual history but none the less it was possible to to (gather) all that er from people like <NAME> and to get to what is known as er erm er classical (xx) er phonemics <P:08> and i think that russian studies could be more more interesting i mean perhaps even more funny if all that could could be , well studied in international networks </S1>
<P:05>
<S5> i i i'm very , very pleased to hear your talk it's quite interesting that it has been (de saussure) er jakobson , er i wondered if if you can understand er t- er the functionalism in nowadays in linguistics er hyman givon er croft er and er , behind the , the they have the c- er idea of evolution and er i i think it's er causality is very important there in in in thinking of givon er and er in er thinking of croft's er but er it's it's er very interesting er , now to look what what what's the if we have ideal tel- teleological evolution <S1>  yeah mhm </S1> er in </S5>
<S1> yeah i don't know er enough american functionalism enough to to answer erm i don't think that those people would work in this er (opposition) but er there is er a place in intellectual history where those discussion go on it is in er theoretical biology er it is the er (frame) which has been er initiated by <NAME> for instance and it is extremely important in russia nowadays and in estonia erm i was in tartu two years ago and there they have erm a huge centre in semiotics where they study the teleological part of evolution in biology and erm there is er very important anti-darwinian trend in er russian intellectual history not only among biologists but among semioticians also erm people like <NAME> for instance are very well-known in er moscow tartu semiotic er school and why is it important erm to deal with anti-darwinism it is because what is at stake for darwin in evolution it is random evolution and this randomness is intolerable for people who think that here is no place for chance in evolution and before all that no form or no shape can come out of er er er er formlessness you see out of chaos order cannot come for instance let's take er er quotation which jakobson liked very much to to to er repeat in 1930s and also in his conversations with <NAME> in 1918 er his favourite quotation was from <WRITING ON THE BLACKBOARD> jose de maistre <COUGH> jose de maistre said don't let the speak of chance (and) arbitrary science , jose de maistre lived in the the beginning of the 19th century he was er a philosopher well known for his total opposition to the french revolution and er jose de maistre said that against the er (xx) and the so-called (ideologue) but what is really strange and fascinating is that jakobson repeated this quotation from jose de maistre from this (ultra-) reactionary and revolutionary philosopher so there is no chance there is no randomness it is impossible mhm out of shapelessness formlessness you cannot have shape and this is precisely the idea of er goethe in the <NAME OF BOOK> that it is through shape that you can get to the type once again what is real is concealed behind what is pure soph- soph- superficial attitude so you see i cannot answer fro- er north american er actual functionalists but i'm quite sure that er er much of er those elements which are difficult to understand i think that they take sense if you er er look at them on the background on this er romantic and new platonist erm way of looking at the systematicity of space and time . which is really weird i i understand that but for you it is for russian studies can be er useful for the the history of western (world) , paradoxically and not as pure er er er folklore and <FOREIGN> russkaya dusha  </FOREIGN> . which i think is ridiculous <COUGH> </S1>
<S5> yes you have shown it very nicely </S5>
<S2> okay perhaps perhaps </S2>
<S1> now perhaps to to finish i will , make a small advertisement for the the web site we have in lausanne <WRITING ON THE BLACKBOARD, P:13> there we mhm gather erm we work on a virtual library where we could there you mhm (unknown) texts mainly in russian but also in french and german and in english and er </S1>
<S3 LEAVING>
<S3> <FOREIGN> merci </FOREIGN> </S3>
<S1> <FOREIGN> au revoir </FOREIGN> </S1>
<S3> <FOREIGN> au revoir </FOREIGN> </S3>
<S1> and er er we are looking for partners to work in er er (network) on network of er er people who work with er this virtual library and er little by little we have research engines and i think that erm if instead of losing our times in (post-soviet) libraries we could make er er er in the international virtual library which could be quite important it's more or less er what they do in sheffield for instance in the bakhtin centre but in sheffield they have only what is linked with bakhtin <DISC CHANGE, P:10> er any other questions </S1>
<P:06>
<S2> if if not questions we can we can , thank you and and and and and go in the in- <SIC> inofficial </SIC> part </S2>
<SS> @@ </SS>
