<TITLE: Inbreeding in Captive and Wild Populations: Case Studies and Implications for Conservation
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: natural sciences
DISCIPLINE: biology
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD210
NOTES: USEMD200 and ULECD060 are part of the same course

RECORDING DURATION: 87 min 23 sec

RECORDING DATE: 13.11.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 9

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 9

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Swedish, Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Persian/Farsi; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Italian; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian, Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S1> okay , so in last time we discussed about the er basics of inbreeding and (partnering) , er this time we concentrate more on the genetic rescue or genetic restoration and also this time we er consider a new research project it will be pub- er presented in the (xx) in the seminar in the beginning of december and you know we learned er the last time er we need a lot of er time to discuss what we get through so this time er we er present the mhm general idea or general idea of articles or er your possible new research projects in five to ten minutes , and this time er we don't discuss er each er paper just er each person presents er their paper and after are finished er we discuss them together okay , er yes for example for conference or scientific meeting er you will have to understand in five to ten minutes and also you sometimes you need to give a comment so just (xx) in a conference or something and you listen to others talk and er maybe you should record er how er did did you feel or if you have some comments , and i <PASSING HANDOUTS> i printed out (key figures or key factors) so i hope this will help to explain <P:05> i think it's good to start from (regular) (xx) er you got keller and er waller i think er <NAME S6> </S1>
<S6> yeah <S1> [yeah yeah] </S1> [i got one of them] yeah er , this was a really really nice article i think it has it had it has quite much er information er though they are talking in quite general kind of concepts and and , and they er they concentrate on er on the inbreeding wi- wi- yes as the topic says inbreeding w- in wild populations they really con- concentrate on er on er reviewing articles in which er inbreeding effects has been or hasn't been found in in wild populations and they had this er table which i do think will be very good for us our i mean our study because it's really easy to find information in this table and for the author find the reference and er they have er summarised methods and and other bi- i- important information in one table which i think it will be very very nice <S1> mhm-hm </S1> , and er <P:05> yeah they er , they kind of st- stress that it's dif- i- it is important to so if they er , they talk about three different er inbreeding er or three different measures of inbreeding or three different s- ways into inbreeding and er i don't want to go into details but i just mention that they (with this question they says that) be cau- cautious when you read papers about inbreeding er be very careful that you really understand which type of kind of measuring they use <S1> mhm </S1> because this will this or this can actually lead you to into wrong conclusions in some er special cases <P:05> and er actually actually it was er if you have very little or no er information about inbreeding in advance this would be a very nice starting paper because this is really easy easily written and and it's easy to follow the ideas i think so in retrospect this is a er this is a good good starting point i think . yeah pretty much it's just a kind of a listing listing articles and er stating that okay in- inbree- inbreeding can be very important in wild populations and actually this is quite kind of interesting their point of about ten years ago in 94 there was kind of strong debates whether inbreeding actually has any effects in in na- natural populations or extinction risks and and other related things and here they kind of try to say that er let's not er focus in this question any more we have found we have found a reasonable amount of information that do do tell us that inbreeding is an important thing and we have to consider it in conservation biology in the future we can't ignore it anymore , and it's yeah i don't know if i because i have read the papers papers from 94 or or nine- or 1988 these papers where they had actually very er hard (sentiments) that inbreeding wouldn't necessarily be very important it's difficult to me to kind of see this er [er] </S6>
<S8> [mhm-hm] controversy </S8>
<S6> yeah yeah <SU> [mhm] </SU> [but] , but i guess i guess this was , yeah no yeah but i don't know how how much this has kind of affected this controversy but a- at least i fo- felt that er they had kind of made a really good effort in you know <SIC> resoluting </SIC> it let's not anymore nag about this thing @@ let's concentrate on more important things </S6>
<S8> i know , <S1> okay yeah </S1> so , yeah good timing so was the idea to propose also , do you have a topic you you would like to start discussing , (critically) , could be erm your interest in a research proposal out of the papers you've read </S8>
<S6> well mhm , <S8> or </S8> not exactly no but er my er i think i would personally be more interested in these natural population settings </S6>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S8> erm if you don't mind i will write it down so at the end you will have the list of preferences but then you have to discuss among yourself what <S6> [yeah yeah yeah] </S6> [to choose in order] to have one (good) plan so <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> one , wild populations , </WRITING ON BLACKBOARD> okay </S8>
<S3> plants or animals or is it (not a question) </S3>
<S6> not at this point i think er but yeah i'm yeah hur- i am more interested in in animal ecology but <S1> yeah </S1> but er but it doesn't i don't want this kind of , you know restrict , i mean it is at this point i don't i don't know if these kind of ideas are (restrictive) at this point i mean i've presented one article and the other (xx) </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm mhm-hm <S8> [mhm] </S8> [and] i believe <S6> [(xx)] </S6> [that er] that er tables can be useful </S1>
<S6> yeah <S1> [yeah] </S1> [yeah] and yeah they do have er results on <S1> [yeah] </S1> [both] plants and animals so <SU> [mhm] </SU> [yeah] </S6>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S4> so what kind of research you would like to do </S4>
<S1> oh maybe later [(we discuss that)] </S1>
<S4> [later okay] sorry </S4>
<S1> so i think next will be wolf <S4> [yeah] </S4> [wolverine] simple case study <S4> [(that was)] </S4> [(xx)] yeah [and] </S1>
<S4> [yes] this was er [easy] </S4>
<S1> [and i i] put the , sorry i put the key er here and here so [if you need the] </S1>
<S4> [yeah on the first] page this was easier than than the last one and it was quite short and basically the main idea is that the the wolf on er scandinavian peninsula was hunted to extinction er d- during , well it had gone on mhm been going on for a very long time but then probably sometimes in the 1960s er people er er sort of er realised that the wolf was considered or they considered the wolf extinct but then er some 20 years later it seemed like a new population had been established somewhere in southern sweden or some- or somewhere and this was like er quite a long distance from from the natural populations in finland and russia and then this er research is based on like those individuals and how the population then in the n- in 19 or probably in 1991 a new individual arrived and with that one the population growth er increased and also the heterozygosity er became better as you can see from the lower here from 1978 to approximately 1990 you could consider that the individual heterozygosity is des- decreasing but then in 91 the new er or probably a new individual arrived and and er the heterozygosity again increases , er and also the estimated population size starts to to ex- grow exponentially from 1991 onwards and these are the facts that they have have sort of er found in nature and then this one is like the genetic er data behind that and they tried to sort of analyse almost every individual er involved in this and they have the the they use different mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomes and also (xx) and X-chromosome microsatellites and they have from the founding couple one female and one male er they get s- they get these from the female but not from the male and i think that's could be one of the perhaps not so good things about this one that they sort of they just induce the genotype from the first breeding male er based on his offspring and but anyway they sort of conclude that that because there has been some debate going on about if these if this er wolf population could er come from for example dogs or or hybrids between dogs and wolves or if they could be some individuals that could have survived from the 1960s somewhere in the forests but then this er this er new (xx) research er points out that they probably have immigrated from russia to finland like through the forest somewhere finnish or russian borders , and yes so basically the conclusion is that just one individual could in this case have helped the population so the population size started increasing again and their individual heterozygosity at least didn't continue decreasing </S4>
<S1> and did you (got) some mhm research idea from this paper </S1>
<S4> from this paper well i've now i have read like about the fox and the wolf so i agree with <NAME S6> that yes something in a wild population and perhaps like even choosing some species and starting from that and making a proposal for one species or (just a) few or something </S4>
<S8> do you have a preference <S4> mhm </S4> what kind of animal [mammals insects mammals] </S8>
<S4> [animals er well] @i guess i'm more@ interested in in mammals but then it doesn't really matter for me and i could do about plants as well and yeah so that doesn't matter </S4>
<S8> mhm-hm </S8>
<S1> do you find er what kind of er research is needed (xx) needed or er , what kind of er research do we need more or </S1>
<S4> erm like generally [or in this case] </S4>
<S1> [yeah in this] yeah in this case (xx) </S1>
<S4> er mhm what could i suggest , well i think the good thing here is <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [that] the population was so small so you could really like at least try to find their genotypes for every individual <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] of course that is is quite good you have like a very good overall picture of <S1> [yeah yeah yeah] </S1> [the whole situation since] the population was so small but then on the other hand that that's perhaps not possible if if <S1> [mhm] </S1> [the] population is larger and so on then you have to to choose a sample and then the sample has to be <S1> mhm-hm </S1> <S8> [well] </S8> [representative] of the population so </S4>
<S8> this is not necessarily true because there are there are inferred pedigrees also for big <S4> [mhm] </S4> [populations] (of horses) and big mammals so it depends on the power of microsatellites but you can infer genotypes also in bigger [populations] </S8>
<S4> [in bigger] populations mhm </S4>
<S8> okay , more questions </S8>
<S1> it's okay but er actually genetic rescue is more easy to do in small population <SS> mhm </SS> and if you have a long-time good data it's very good thing , okay yes for next adders snake </S1>
<S3> snake yes well this was <PASSING HANDOUTS> </S3>
<S1> i also need handout [do you do you have (xx)] </S1>
<S3> [yes this this] one is for the adders mhm erm this was a really @mhm@ easy and (xx) <S1> mhm </S1> er they study an isolated population of adders in sweden and , er they said that they have been isolated for at least a century and they also knew that the population has declined er some 35 years ago and since then it has been really small and suffered from from inbreeding depression and it had a very low genetic variability er and from the year 81 they er they captured all the males and marked them so that they could follow the the population or they actually just just the number of males that's probably a good measure of the overall population size erm <COUGH> , er , and in 1992 they captured 20 males from from larger and more genetically variable populations that were quite far away from from this population and then let them out in this population , and they said that the introduced males settled in rapidly and started to reproduce with all the females and then four years later they could see that the population started to increase and also the genetic variability increased very much and it took four years because it takes about four years for the males to mature so they wouldn't see an immediate response , mhm and the reason for the increase was probably that there was less stillborn offspring er because the number of female reproducing er did not increase so it was probably it was probably the the increase of genetic variability that really that really induced this increase because the males that they put in were also taken away a few years <S1> [mhm yeah] </S1> [later so] they didn't affect the the population increase , and they followed this population for a really really long time and you can see that in 2003 it was still increasing <S8> mhm-hm </S8> so it seems like there is a long , or that the the effect was not not just right after but it it kept on increasing <S8> yeah </S8> mhm i think that was really the main the main result <S1> [yeah] </S1> [of this] of this article </S3>
<S4> what's this male recruits </S4>
<S3> mhm it's a the number of the new males <S6> yeah </S6> <S4> uh-huh </S4> so this is this is the black ones are all all males and the grey ones are other ones born </S3>
<S4> for that year </S4>
<S3> yes ones that were found because they marked every individual eas- each year so they knew which ones were new and which ones were old </S3>
<SU> mhm yeah </SU>
<S1> and did you (got) some new or id- new research idea </S1>
<S3> mhm well i agree that it would be needed or that information on wild populations would be needed so i guess that could be a good topic to study on the other hand it would be it would be easier to control a study if we did some kind of a lab study but </S3>
<S1> [control study] </S1>
<SS> [mhm] </SS>
<SU> do you think there's (control) (xx) </SU>
<S3> i don't know [because] </S3>
<SU> [okay] i think there is </SU>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> so why do you think control is needed , because this is only mhm integrated in one population </S1>
<S3> mhm i actually said that it er it would be easier to control a study if we did a lab study <S1> okay </S1> so </S3>
<S8> and do you have any preference for animals or plants </S8>
<S3> well rather animals i think <S8> yeah </S8> but then i don't really have any preferences if they are big or small @@ </S3>
<S5> do you think you could integrate both field study and [control lab study] </S5>
<S3> [and a lab study] mhm well maybe it would be a good way of , <SS> mhm </SS> or then i was thinking if that if we we could find some kind of population where we would have different population sizes for example or different grades of of inbreeding and compare those to see if if the rescue effect is different for small and big populations for example </S3>
<S8> okay </S8>
<S6> on the other hand i don't er if we choose animals and we i i think it would be interesting to consider er animals with different life histories <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [and] do they have kind of do they show similar patterns in in this er inbreeding and are they are they er as sus- susceptible to it or can we find any difference between different </S6>
<S8> mhm okay all good ideas we'll we'll discuss later </S8>
<S1> yeah the next er yeah you <SS> @@ </SS> @are you ready <NAME S9> @ they didn't they didn't forget [you] </S1>
<S9> [er] maybe later because i (xx) i forgot that it's today this one so i'm [late] </S9>
<S8> [okay] well maybe er <NAME S2> can start and [then] </S8>
<S1> [or] erm (xx) the panther </S1>
<S8> panther </S8>
<S7> panther yes </S7>
<S8> so she can recover <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] i did the same actually i was going upstairs so @@ </S8>
<S9> i was running through four five six floors so i didn't <SS> [@@] </SS> [and then i decided (xx)] </S9>
<S8> oh @okay@ yeah i'm really (xx) </S8>
<S1> well rest of the er discussions is sixth floor (certainly) </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> yeah you could begin [yeah] </S8>
<S7> [<COUGH>] i think i will not be er [talk about (xx)] </S7>
<S1> [(not you) (xx)] @@ </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> yeah </S8>
<S7> mhm-hm , okay about er the population of panther in florida there was a small population of panther in florida and the the idea was to introduce individuals from texas which was geographically the nearest population to (existing) panther in florida so in 1995 er eight males were introduced from texas to florida and then the process were monitored and there has been lots of controversy about the success of such kind of introdu- er introduction and the rescue effect of panther er in florida there has been er controversial er contro- controversy about er controversy about er how successful was this kind of rescue effect regarding that the er population which was decreasing was so small and the habitat around this er small population was not so in goo- so good quality so er next i will i will talk about the advantages of this rescue er action and then i will talk about why there has been some er er disadvant- -advantages of this rescue action , er it was shown that er the adult erm . er it was shown that the hy- the hybrids hybrids er had the had the opportunity to be grown to adult three times more than purebreds and on the other hand er female mor- mortality of hybrids were much lesser than er p- er pure- purebreds and then er reproduction number and er size of kittens produced by female panthers in hybrids and in purebreds had no differe- er no difference so at least it did not affect badly the size and the number of er new er new kittens in the population so it seems that it had it had a very good er effect on the mhm dying population of panther but on the other hand the growing population has been introduced to er some aggres- aggressors and the man human dominated er areas around the mhm original population so it had made made some er problems for er for er the area dominated by humans and er some debates are going are going on on whether the habitat itself w- was so in good quality and good capacity to introduce er new individuals and ma- and let the population to expand without taking into into account the er mhm capacity of habitat er . erm mhm on the other hand the mortality of the males has decreased so er drastically because new males introduced to the population were kind of er being er killed by old resident populations in the florida so just because they were exotic and they were not (as) successful than er resident males to compete and to have mates with er mhm resident females on the other hand er exotic males were more likely to disperse to find new t- territories to just escape the competition with resident males and it er increased er their mortality so at the end the conclusion was really not er emphasising neither erm advantages nor erm disadvantages and i think this debate has remained just to judge erm conservation management whether to expand mhm the are- some kind of areas for er leaving population or not or just moving the population into another another mhm good quality habitat but er i did not er find any mhm unique co- er conclusion at the end of this article to say whether <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [this] has been really successful or n- or not successful this was very <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [controversial] yeah </S7>
<S1> mhm-hm , <S8> okay </S8> and what you think what you wanted to do mhm er add a new research or </S1>
<S7> i'm really keen on considering (xx) species because <S1> [mhm] </S1> [er] mhm i like to take them into account how how the mhm how the process is happening to them how er their mhm their mhm being well will be mhm <S1> yeah </S1> mhm will be impro- er improved by what we are deciding <S1> yeah </S1> <S8> [mhm] </S8> [and] er my my case study would be more more likely to be on plants or fungi even fungi i have not seen any case study on rescuing such kind of genetic rescuing [of plants @so do they exist@ there's the list but] </S7>
<S1> [@yeah i think so@] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S7> i'm not sure whether i can find anything </S7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> <SU-7> [well] </SU-7> [@yeah@] okay let's discuss it later </S1>
<S8> you can be the first person <SS> @@ </SS> science is also (xx) , well then </S8>
<S1> yeah so the last case study the bighorn sheep </S1>
<S9> yeah actually it's a kind of er very similar to yours papers but the results are better <SS> @@ </SS> so they s- they mhm mhm-hm so as as <NAME S1> said it is er bighorn or the study organism is the bighorn sheep and the paper named the genetic rescue of a insular population of large mammals so by study of sheeps they wanna , to er extrapolate to the results to mammals large mammals so they made a study of a bighorn sheep population er which er suffered from a some kind of bottleneck er in 1922 so starting from this period there was (xx) individuals of them and er then in erm 1980 85 there were five more introduced and in from 90 to 94 ten more so <SIGH> the purpose of the study was to er to look at the possible bottleneck consequences and er and the rescue effect of the introduced sheeps , do they increase the genetical diversity or not and so they measured the you know the parameters so starting from animal counting female (xx) birth weight and so on to just to measure the fitness of the of the offsprings after outbreeding er , so mhm they took some tissue samples for genetical (xx) and then extraction (of the cell) erm mhm-hm , so what was the results erm strikingly from from yours papers the overall (xx) er benefited from it so the numbers of individuals if before the introductions it was ara- average was like 42 individuals after the introductions er not only the (xx) introducers it was 90 individuals 90 so it is it increased er the genetic variability was extremely low before the introductions so there was er evidence of a strong genetic drift er so the situation was really bad then after all the mhm they didn't found any outbreeding depression and the genetic diversity increased and all the parameters of fitness also increased er as i understood the the introducers er , how to say it t- they as your panthers wasn't recognised in the in the native population <S7> mhm </S7> those sheeps were recognised and even th- though they were beneficial in competition for the females er they choose them er <BROWSING THROUGH PAPERS HUMMING, P:09> adult survival also increased erm so overall they found the positive effect of after outbreeding to total fitness of whole population and it's it's (unquestionable) on what what (basis) erm , <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [this] kind of table here actually i what i didn't understood from here wh- what was this part of here <S1> mhm </S1> why the population grew so markedly in 90s because they introduced some like 15 individuals or ten individuals from 90 to 94 , so maybe even because they introduced some (xx) the population (failed) in that time [the (xx) was actually quite strong] </S9>
<S1> [you you're you're saying] this er (quick (xx) growth) <S9> yeah [it's] </S9> [in the] population size mhm did they er introduce some individuals before this period </S1>
<S9> they introduced them in 90s yeah <S1> [mhm] </S1> [so] i don't know is it because of the introduction or <S1> [mhm-hm] </S1> [the] population er (failed) before <S1> [mhm] </S1> [that] and i maybe i missed it but i didn't found information about it </S9>
<S7> but they just correspond with each other there is nothing mhm nothing in here </S7>
<S9> what [do you mean] </S9>
<S7> [more about this] (xx) er when the po- population size is is increasing the allele er the mhm average (xx) of migrant allele is increasing it's just [(xx)] </S7>
<S9> [yeah the allele] </S9>
<S7> and it's all happened in 1991 <S9> [mhm] </S9> [the] average year of introduction of individuals <SU> mhm </SU> [(xx)] </S7>
<S9> [but then why] does the number of individuals decrease so so much if </S9>
<S7> because the decrease is just recorded from 1979 to 1991 </S7>
<S9> ah it's the different <SS> @@ </SS> okay erm </S9>
<S3> but it says here that they introduced individuals from 1985 forward </S3>
<S9> <S7> [yeah] </S7> [but] but there is but there is d- d- data there is data from the 70s to 1985 <S3> mhm </S3> and then there is a gap and there is i think data from the 90s to 2003 <S3> uh-huh okay , yeah </S3> as i understood , so the , overall result from this paper is that er that introduction of a the same species but from different populations is beneficial for genetic rescue er restoring of er (xx) and also to overall fitness of the species </S9>
<S1> okay er , did you got some new er research work @@ from this paper , what could be interesting to investigate or </S1>
<S8> and also from other papers you have read <S1> mhm </S1> , what would be your preference erm </S8>
<P:08>
<S9> haven't thought @about it@ , sorry </S9>
<S1> it's not a problem </S1>
<S8> no , no problem , later , you can think about it now [okay] </S8>
<S1> [okay] so we er presented er four case studies and last er is er review of the genetic rescue </S1>
<S2> er there were quite many interesting points in the article but i think the main point was that there is a contradiction between outbreeding depression and genetic rescue and , in in low levels of immigration can provide fitness benefit to inbred populations without negative influences <S1> [mhm] </S1> [to] local <S1> [mhm] </S1> [adaptations] and there is also many factors that you need to take in account in genetic rescue issues for example genetics and demographic behaviour and disease ecology and many others , and and it's im- important to know how much populations suffer from inbreeding depression and how susceptible er they are to outbreeding depression and molecul- molecular based methods will help to identify populations that benefit fro- benefit from genetic rescue and mhm , and there is quite much problems in many studies because in the lab studies they often mhm mhm mhm use immigrants that share mhm common genetic architecture with the (resident) population and it's mhm then the- there might be no outbree- outbreeding depression and in ma- many studies they also followed results only through the F1-generation where hete- heterosis is maximised and outbreeding is often not yet expressed . <S8> mhm-hm </S8> i don't know @more@ </S2>
<S1> okay so i think you will find some er er further research needed <S2> yes @@ </S2> for example </S1>
<S2> mhm maybe more research in wild populations <S1> mhm-hm </S1> and </S2>
<S1> what kind of research </S1>
<S2> mhm . mhm just outbreeding depression <S1> [mhm] </S1> [results] and </S2>
<S1> so (xx) you er want to er look for outbreeding depression mhm what kind of data are you u- using <S2> mhm </S2> . you said er heterosis er heterosis er the benefit from the outbreeding is <S2> [mhm] </S2> [stronger] in the F1 hybrid <S2> yes </S2> but later it might decrease <S2> yes </S2> so what kind of research will you do for example </S1>
<S2> lo- longer [(xx)] </S2>
<S1> [yeah longer time yeah] . okay erm yeah you said a lot of er good points for example er about er disadvantage for experimental situations , it's <S2> [mhm yeah] </S2> [a er] far from reality <S2> yes yes mhm-hm </S2> for er some er you it may be difficult to er apply the you know results from laboratory (xx) to er large mammals panther or mhm panther or to big cats </S1>
<S2> i didn't understand this sure whether this <S8> okay </S8> er genetic architecture thing or </S2>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S3> i was going to ask about @that also@ <SS> [@@] </SS> [what what is] genetic architecture </S3>
<S1> maybe <NAME S8> @could tell@ </S1>
<S8> me <SS> @@ </SS> okay so maybe we can go to the the (beaver) and and read </S8>
<S1> but er i have not any (xx) </S1>
<S8> does everybody have it okay </S8>
<S1> (xx) can you write on the whiteboard or </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [(xx)] </S8>
<S1> [like a teacher] </S1>
<S8> well i'm not able to [define (xx)] </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [yeah] no it's not necessarily (xx) this </S1>
<S8> erm <HUMMING> well let me read just the this one i don't know maybe <P:14> i think that the the main point of these it was related to the local adaptation because er there there are there are two main concepts the inbreeding depression can be er can induce very low level of genetic variation and this might be extremely negative because there is not enough variation to respond to environmental variation on the other hand you can have the opposite so the outbreeding depression when you introduce too much divergent genes in one population you can er you can have the opposite effect so that you destroy local adaptation so there is too much divergent pool and the genetic architecture as you call it or basically it's the genetic diversity of genomes er is increased too much so these very divergent genomes are not adapted anymore to live in a certain environment so these are the two extreme effects that fight and they and they have to deal with local adaptation and selection </S8>
<S1> so genetic architecture is the kind of combination of genes adapted in one population or something , okay </S1>
<S3> did they do then or did your article then mean that that they use when they introduce some individuals that they are that their genome is quite similar to the ones </S3>
<S8> no it's the opposite it's too divergent so in that case if we have (heterosis) <S3> [mhm] </S3> [so] it's the two er the two geno- gene pools are so divergent and when you mix them in a <S3> [mhm] </S3> [population] then you have er individuals that are not adapted any more to live in that environment </S8>
<S3> mhm </S3>
<S2> but in erm , in , @in@ lab studies they are quite similar the [genomes] </S2>
<S3> [mhm] so that's why the [outbreeding depression] </S3>
<S6> [and the one of the] </S6>
<S3> isn't showing </S3>
<S2> yes </S2>
<S6> yes that was one of the problems in these lab studies if i remember correctly </S6>
<S2> sorry </S2>
<S6> wasn't that kind of one of the main problems which they <S2> [yes] </S2> [which] they pointed to <S3> [mhm] </S3> [here] </S6>
<S8> but of course you can induce also in lab er in lab in er animals like fly butterf- <S6> [yeah] </S6> [er] sorry fruit flies you can induce extremely different genomes because they <S6> [mhm] </S6> [are] easy to manipulate <S3> [mhm] <S6> [yeah] </S6> </S3> and er er maintaining what is called the background selection constant so similar environment but very divergent you select two genes that are very much different and then you can perform your studies <S6> [yeah] </S6> [mixing] them at different level of complexity and then you can infer what this (xx) is <S6> mhm </S6> , okay <S1> okay </S1> so i think er what is your preference and why </S8>
<S1> er er before that i will explain something in in these <S8> [okay] </S8> [er] references and er basically it's a table er </S1>
<SU-8> what table </SU-8>
<S1> er @@ the one i , yeah er okay , er this is a summary this is very recent er review 2006 and they summarise the recent empirica- stu- empirical studies showing the (range of) genetic rescue effect and actually the er concept of genetic rescue is very simple but er there's there have been not , very general studies have been conducted so far , for example for mhm animal populations er basically er these er today's four paper adder and the wolf bighorn sheep and panther and this er prairie chicken , so these are the basic er main er key studies that (survey) the rescue effect and the this bighorn one is a er one of the recent ones this shows a different (xx) , for example prairie chicken one they just er investigated er population size and (xx) ( rate) and for example adders they er find the the percentage of deformities and population size and wolf there is no assessment of the (xx) rates just their population size <P:05> and also the er next do you see these figures , these figures , and many of the er (xx) er genetic rescue increased the population size but for example in this er prairie chicken the increase in population size doesn't seem look very strong <SU-8> mhm </SU-8> also for adder this inc- er this er increase is very (significant) </S1>
<S3> well not if you compare it to to what it was for example or if you take the average of <S1> [mhm] </S1> [of] the few years before then it's n- it's not so big </S3>
<S1> mhm yeah </S1>
<S8> and not as (short) (xx) </S8>
<S1> <S3> [mhm] </S3> [mhm] yes (xx) time er have they mentioned that the (xx) before <S3> mhm </S3> so it's just er [only (xx)] </S1>
<S8> [(one generation)] </S8>
<S1> so as er <NAME S2> said er the heterosis or </S1>
<S8> <S1> [yeah (xx) time] </S1> [(xx)] potentially </S8>
<S1> mhm <S3> mhm </S3> , and for wolf for example mhm do you think er this population increase is er very significant , <NAME S4> </S1>
<S4> if i think so <S1> mhm yeah </S1> yes <S6> [mhm] </S6> [but] now that you say it that that was the only or or at least there was no other fitness measure <S1> yeah </S1> in that study <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so this] was actually the only result and then the individual heterozygosity but describing my opinion is much harder to <S1> [mhm] </S1> [to draw] any conclusions from but the population size i think is increasing <S1> yeah </S1> <SU> mhm </SU> very much </S4>
<S1> yeah the population size it's increasing yeah </S1>
<S8> mhm-hm </S8>
<S3> and i think that this study ends in 2000 but i think that we know that there are still a lot of wolves there <S4> mhm </S4> [in 2006 so] </S3>
<S1> [mhm yeah] , <SU-2> mhm </SU-2> so remember some er researchers er said er (recruits) er inbreeding but other er factors for example environment may change it er better so it's difficult to conclude </S1>
<S2> and they say in this article that that c- mhm mhm the reason might be that there is some differences in mhm @i don't know@ be- in bef- behaviour <S6> mhm </S6> <S1> [mhm] </S1> [of wolf] <S8> mhm </S8> because if they're mhm so <FOREIGN> mikä on olla @sukua@ läheistä sukua </FOREIGN> </S2>
<S3> er [related] </S3>
<S6> [yeah closely related] yeah </S6>
<S2> yes <S6> yeah </S6> closely related that the mhm wolf maybe don't mhm <FOREIGN> @lisääntyä@ mikä se niinku mikä </FOREIGN> </S2>
<S3> breed </S3>
<S2> breed together <S6> yeah </S6> <S3> mhm </S3> and when there come other wolf then they start to breed <S8> mhm-hm </S8> er <S1> [oh] </S1> [because the] behaviour </S2>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S1> mhm-hm yeah that's interesting <S6> mhm-hm </S6> yeah mhm-hm </S1>
<S9> actually with with er in this case the immigrant is a stress (xx) stress and (the immigrant and (xx) were) as there was too many of them do you mean that they start to , there is some kind of stress effect (of this immigrant) , they start to [breed more breed or something] </S9>
<S2> [no they er no] they er they didn't breed in the in the beginning because they are so they was so mhm </S2>
<S1> closely related <COUGH> and they they might be able to recognise the kins , relatives <SS> mhm </SS> so they may not want to breed [with relatives] <S2> [mhm] yeah </S2> but (once) er other unrelated [i- individual okay] </S1>
<S9> [yeah] i think so </S9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S3> but isn't that still like rescue of the population <S2> yes </S2> <S1> yeah </S1> [although it is behaviour and not genetical] </S3>
<S2> [but not but not gen- genetic rescue] </S2>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S6> yeah but still yeah it might be very same thing it's <S3> [mhm] </S3> [just] like er [inb- inbreeding] </S6>
<S3> [the result is the same] </S3>
<S6> yeah <S2> yeah </S2> and it could actually or couldn't it be i mean an adaptation kind of also i mean from a natural selection point of view <S1> mhm-hm </S1> i mean yeah , yeah if the sex-appeal is <SS> [@@] </SS> [(xx)] more distantly related <S1> oh okay </S1> i mean it would drive the genetic i mean it would <S1> [mhm yeah] </S1> [that would be] exactly the same thing </S6>
<S1> <SS> [mhm] </SS> [yeah yeah] yeah (could be) though not only genetics behaviour or , other (demography) is also important (point) </S1>
<S8> on the other hand if you think about the example of the panther introduction of new males can be very fierce if the <S1> [mhm] </S1> [dominant] male is already there <SS> mhm </SS> so before operating any rescue in this kind of (xx) you have to take into account very much the behaviour first </S8>
<S1> yeah <S6> mhm [mhm] </S6> [and] also panther and bears males kills other infants </S1>
<S8> yes </S8>
<SU-3> mhm </SU-3>
<S1> [yeah] </S1>
<S7> [but] i was wondering the panther case study why they have not introduced females rather than males </S7>
<S1> er that's a good point <S7> [mhm] </S7> [<COUGH>] for example if er in this (xx) (operation) they introduced only males and (xx) because they wanted to see er effect of er genetic rescue if you introduce a female er they also continue the demography <S7> [mhm] </S7> [so you] cannot purely detect <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [the effect of genetics] <S7> uh-huh </S7> so they introduced only male and (xx) </S1>
<SU> mhm-hm </SU>
<S3> but wasn't the panther case like not a study but a real <S1> yeah yeah yeah </S1> real [life situation] </S3>
<S1> [co- comparison so] </S1>
<S8> [yeah but it's] (xx) like when you introduce males because they can er breed with many females [and the rescue is more (xx) it's faster] </S8>
<SS> [mhm] mhm-hm </SS>
<S3> even if they kill @@ or if they [get that (xx)] </S3>
<S8> <S1> [@@] </S1> [yeah] yeah exactly okay so </S8>
<S1> yeah so we already see some er research [(which really) yeah] </S1>
<S7> [may may i just say] something <S1> sure </S1> in many erm er conclusions about rescue effect the more important figure that they emphasise erm for showing the success for the (xx) and then the success of such an introduction is to show their raise in population size <S8> mhm-hm </S8> as i understood b- but er as i er realise from this paper is so that in some cases for example in birds in new zealand the population size can be grow but it's still suffering from inbreeding depression <S1> mhm </S1> and the thing is that in such kind of genetic er decisions about er (covering) dying populations i think very long period of time is needed to decide how how er successful was <S1> mhm </S1> genetic rescue effect <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] er m- many other many other factors should be also measured <S1> [mhm] </S1> [the c-] the main conclusion should not be just on population size </S7>
<S8> <S1> [yeah] </S1> [i think] you're right <SU-6> mhm-hm </SU-6> and in fact one of the reviews last time was about bees and study of fitness traits more than only <SS> [yeah mhm] </SS> [population size] and that's an important point when you want to follow a population and you don't have ages to do it </S8>
<S6> especially concerning mammals and birds which tend to er </S6>
<S8> long [generations] </S8>
<S6> [yeah] yeah <S1> mhm-hm uh-huh </S1> it would be really interesting to see some results for instance on this wolf thing about er about 10 or 20 years ahead from now <SS> yeah [mhm] </SS> [so] </S6>
<S1> so in such a different case the er simulation work might help </S1>
<S8> yes </S8>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S4> yeah i was gonna ask about the snake for how long does the snake male live </S4>
<S3> how long does it [live or yeah] </S3>
<S4> [er er i mean approximately] like an individual [that] </S4>
<S3> [well] if it matures in , they said they introduced the males in 92 and then they took them out in in 95 and then they had only eight of the 20 left so <S4> [mhm okay] </S4> [12 had died] in a few years so probably they live </S3>
<S4> a few years </S4>
<S3> mhm less than 10 years <S1> mhm [mhm] </S1> [i wo-] i would say </S3>
<S8> okay so erm now we'll start , you'll start because i mean the idea was of this or all this organisation of the course that the first two meetings were to keep you on track become familiar with basic knowledge and we have done this er we have done this through reading enough key studies and some review papers we have clarified some concepts that were not clear to everybody because you have different background so i guess at this point you are almost at the same level of knowledge you have read almost the same number of papers and you have followed lectures so this is the time for you to become propositive and this is the time for us to watch you <SS> @@ </SS> so that you will have much more freedom you can discuss we'll be here and we'll we'll help you but mainly it's your time now to be propositive to be active and er well propose a research plan that will be used later in a in the seminar so today you will start identifying maybe the topic which organism you prefer or more than one organism eventually or more than one study if you prefer comparative studies or whatever methods that you think are necessary to follow your research and what is your expected result , and then we will bui- we'll build up from that , so i think then you can start from your preferences have you thought about @@ something you would like because it's just er would you prefer wild populations (xx) populations control studies animals or plants that was the first kind of idea </S8>
<S9> i'd prefer animals <S8> mhm-hm </S8> in wild populations </S9>
<S8> <WRITING DOWN> animals <S9> [and er] </S9> [and the wild] populations </S8>
<S9> maybe aquatic something <S8> mhm </S8> aquatic (xx) or something </S9>
<S8> uh-huh oh yeah <S9> mhm </S9> erm next week <S1> [yeah] </S1> [yes then] (aquatic life) and </S8>
<S2> mhm wild populations maybe @mammals@ </S2>
<S1> [@mhm@ right] </S1>
<S8> <WRITING DOWN> [mammals okay] </S8>
<S2> cute mammals </S2>
<S1> yeah [i agree] </S1>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> okay there's another thing why you er you have to take into account in your plan , why , the reasoning because you have to <SU> [yeah] </SU> [think] if you <SS> [mhm] </SS> [want to rescue] animals or plants or whatever you need money <SS> [yeah mhm] </SS> [so you need to justify] your choice and it's very important when you write a research plan <S1> [yeah] <SS> [mhm] </SS> </S1> because there are many very interesting research plans but just 10 per cent of them is funded <S1> mhm <SU-7> [yeah] </SU-7> [@@] </S1> okay , er let's start </S8>
<S9> so we should choose like one one animal agree on one i mean plant sorry <SS> [@@] </SS> [maybe @@] </S9>
<S8> you can choose [one] </S8>
<S2> [fungi] maybe </S2>
<S9> maybe only yeah it's it doesn't matter but i think we should erm er our our choice should be er related somehow to the the characters of this object i mean how it is use- useable for our idea or question <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [so] we we could start with the choosing animals and then propose the question why we want to study them or would we like to we can choose the question of of our interest and then we choose the object the er the methods and then why <S6> mhm </S6> so </S9>
<SU> mhm </SU>
<S3> should we have somebody that writes down ideas and </S3>
<S8> yeah i think it's a good way </S8>
<SS> [yeah mhm] </SS>
<SU-3> [come on] who is a good writer </SU-3>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> i'm the secretary alright fine <SS> @@ </SS> i'm happy to do it </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> @we have too kind mentors they do the hard work@ </S4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> well then that's good </S8>
<S3> mhm i think we all agreed on that we want to study wild animals at [least] </S3>
<SS> [yeah mhm-hm] </SS>
<S8> [okay so] only (wild animals) we can also use the blackboard if you want </S8>
<S1> yeah actually it's white </S1>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> okay i'll go </S8>
<WALKS TO WHITEBOARD, P:08>
<S9> do you want to choose (xx) (mammal which) </S9>
<A SCREEN SCROLLS UP WITH A LOUD THUMP>
<S8> whoops </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S9> which is very pretty looking and maybe [er] </S9>
<S4> [and] very (xx) [@@] </S4>
<S9> [yeah yeah] and it's it would be like very popular among er newspapers and so <SS> [@@] </SS> [very attractive by by foundations @@] </S9>
<S7> sorry [(xx)] </S7>
<S8> [okay let's say] </S8>
<S7> we are proposing we should have kind of background er data and information whether it is er </S7>
<S1> er <NAME> er did propose some er er genetic effect er genetic rescue </S1>
<S7> whether [this] </S7>
<S1> [in a real] situation </S1>
<S7> whether this organism really needs such kind of rescue if it [(xx)] </S7>
<S1> [so if you] er (xx) (you choose) er have no ev- er evidence of er inbreeding depression you need to <SS> [@@] </SS> [@@] it's very @wild population and@ </S1>
<S7> you just suppose there's a kind of population of (xx) and it is somewhere suffering from inbreeding depression [(xx)] </S7>
<S8> [okay let's say] like er , first do you need to asses inbreeding depression it's one point so <S6> [mhm] </S6> [if] you want to choose something you like then you have to think o- does already a study exist on these species are they already inbred if they are not you need a step more so you first have to assess if there is inbreeding depression and then you rescue it , so more efficient yeah i mean depends how long is your plan and how many things you wanna study </S8>
<S6> mhm </S6>
<S1> but this time i think er it's really [general mhm] </S1>
<S8> [yeah yeah yeah] i mean it's like think [what you wanna do] </S8>
<S1> [@yeah@] some interest i also think important to er yeah er come out such an idea </S1>
<S8> okay <S1> yeah </S1> so what is your next so you all agree about wild animals , then </S8>
<S3> i think an easy way would be to to take for example an animal of of the studies we have gone through that we know suffers from inbreeding depression and that we know how [some small populations (xx)] </S3>
<S6> [here's here's one list] of er animals er and plants in which they have reported inbreeding depression in the wild </S6>
<S3> is it the same as this [one] </S3>
<S6> [no] that's [not the same] </S6>
<S1> [no there's] another one </S1>
<S4> yes and then i was thinking because ilkka hanski talked quite a lot in his lecture about the importance of having a model organism also <SS> [mhm-hm mhm] </SS> [in ecology so] perhaps we should try at least to find a representative somehow <S8> [mhm] </S8> [@a species@] for i mean just like not just picking any but for some reason that it could perhaps the the conclusions could then yeah help with other species as well <SS> mhm </SS> somehow </S4>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S8> [okay] </S8>
<S9> [so] it would it should be wild or it should be modelled so </S9>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [so why not both] </S8>
<S9> [wild mice species] </S9>
<S6> both </S6>
<S8> so option A , option B , why not both </S8>
<S9> wild mice [(species)] </S9>
<S6> [there are] kind of </S6>
<S9> there's (xx) </S9>
<S6> two or three of them er <S3> mhm </S3> existing </S6>
<S3> model organisms </S3>
<S6> @@ wild model organisms , they aren't very (xx) </S6>
<SU-8> [mhm-hm] </SU-8>
<S9> [so what] kind of er characters model org- organisms have , [why is it] </S9>
<S4> [basic] ecology is known <S9> mhm </S9> basic ecology <S9> uh-huh </S9> and demography is is known <S9> mhm </S9> and probably also the genetic </S4>
<S3> could it be an idea to to compare wild populations and <S1> yeah </S1> lab populations [for example] </S3>
<S1> [could be] interesting <S8> yeah </S8> that's very good </S1>
<S6> yeah </S6>
<S3> it's probably quite hard to do <SS> [mhm] </SS> [but] maybe <S8> [yeah] </S8> [it is] really [efficient] </S3>
<S6> [that's a] that's a good idea you have </S6>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S4> or zoo population </S4>
<S6> mhm-hm [mhm-hm] </S6>
<S9> [could we choose] the [organisms (xx) populations (xx)] </S9>
<S8> [i think (xx)] </S8>
<S4> [(xx)] i think there's quite a lot of (inheriting) theory for this , what is it in english </S4>
<S5> pedigree </S5>
<S4> pedigree yeah </S4>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S8> this was for the model </S8>
<S4> no we're just like er [brainstorming @@] </S4>
<S8> [no no i because i'm] writing ideas so that you can go there back later and say okay i want to pick this idea </S8>
<SS> mhm-hm </SS>
<S5> yeah so they she suggested that you could take an animal that is also in zoos for instance <SU-4> [mhm-hm] <S8> [okay] </S8> </SU-4> so you have pedigree information </S5>
<S4> and many of the at least threatened big cats and those [kinds of] </S4>
<S6> [mhm] some kind of <S4> [yeah] </S4> [there's] some birds species are [also] </S6>
<S4> [yeah] probably as well </S4>
<S8> so captive animals , can you read my horrible writing <SS> [@@] </SS> [@yeah good@] </S8>
<S1> could write bigger [@it is small@ @@] <SS> [@@] </SS>  </S1>
<S8> [bah you are impossible you are okay] i'll b- i'll write bigger okay </S8>
<S1> yes </S1>
<S4> but what did you suggest you said something about when we were talking earlier and it sounded really interesting like comparing not like for example two populations but instead like comparing </S4>
<S6> was it the [life histories or] </S6>
<S4> [something] yeah something [about that] </S4>
<SS> [mhm] mhm </SS>
<S8> comparing </S8>
<S9> what </S9>
<S6> life histories [different] </S6>
<S8> [life] [histories] </S8>
<S4> [mhm] </S4>
<S6> animals or plants with different life history backgrounds can be er er yeah i mean and i well the the idea i had it was just that er do we find different kind of patterns in inbreeding depressions and </S6>
<S3> do you think we can or i think an ideal situation would be to have one species or different populations of one species <SU-7> oh </SU-7> with different life histories that we could compare <SU-7> i [think] </SU-7> [because] then we can <S6> [mhm] </S6> [control] for all these effects that are the things that might dif- might differ between species <SU> [mhm] </SU> [but] i don't know if there is any such speci- species </S3>
<S1> mhm </S1>
<S7> the different populations which are (xx) each other and then we are going to er evaluate whether any of these populations suffer from inbreeding depression <S1> [mhm] </S1> [and] after that deciding what to do how we're going to do such a thing </S7>
<S3> mhm for example </S3>
<S1> yeah so er different populations er in a single species <S7> mhm </S7> and compare the effects yeah , could be nice </S1>
<S8> [mhm-hm] </S8>
<S7> [and] er for sure we are going to measure the genetic distance between these populations </S7>
<S1> mhm-hm </S1>
<S8> so <S6> [mhm] </S6> [we are] in the middle party , <SS> mhm </SS> right , so no what i i want or just to invite you to think is four blocks so you have first reason , why , then you you have your object , what , and then how you will study it <S7> [mhm] </S7> [and] what you will expect from your results <SS> mhm </SS> if you if you follow these it's easier <SS> yeah [mhm] </SS> [to select] </S8>
<S1> and also it would be interesting to first er like a brainstorming just er <S8> yeah </S8> describing coming ideas <S8> yeah yeah </S8> (that er er) <SS> mhm </SS> and and later you can categorise these <S8> [yeah] </S8> [ideas] </S1>
<S4> well at least in this list that <NAME S6> had there's a lot of of birds </S4>
<P:06>
<S6> and actually er although although that was the article i had er i read i haven't actually very er er thoroughly went through that list because i thought er well on one hand it may be kind of time-consuming and and er on on the other hand it's probably more interesting to compare it now between kind of that we all (heard about it) <SU> mhm </SU> <P:06> but a- at at least er if we want to kind of have if we want to kind of set the stage that er these are our species whatever we want to take that's er if we want to if you want it to be inbred so to speak then that's a very good starting point because [yeah] </S6>
<S3> [so these] are all like inbred species [that we studied before] </S3>
<S6> [yeah populations yeah] wild populations that has er in which they have been proved <S3> [mhm] </S3> [er] the the inbreeding depression is </S6>
<S1> can i sit (there) (xx) </S1>
<S1 AND S9 CHANGING PLACES, P:06>
<S9> is there any aquatic ones <SU> [er] </SU> [especially] aquatic ones </S9>
<S4> harbour seal </S4>
<S9> you know i mean , there is about (xx) there is always that inbreeding happened to most species (above) because of habitat (remediation) and like population (get) small numbers because they like they , their existence was (xx) for something (aquatical organisms is er) of course it is the same species but just imagine it's it's not in the coastal area where the er habitats could be (xx) but erm but (xx) i mean it's it's not the case it's not the factor for inbreeding so i mean just that what kind of factor factors <S6> [mhm] </S6> [could] could affect it </S9>
<S7> mhm-hm mhm the differences was was just not measured let's just think about fungi because most of fungi mhm they're the same er population of the same species , so distant from each other <SU> [mhm] </SU> [and] each population just consists of two or three not individuals but (genus) because individuals mhm individuals in fungi have different er meaning it is called (genus) consider many distant populations from each other each consisting of just the two or three genus and they can survive for a long time not being er suffering from from er (or for) er from inbreeding because the main er successful thing about fungi is that they can survive bad conditions of weather being inactive in in form of hyphae or <S6> [mhm] </S6> [spore] even for a 100 years <SS> mhm [mhm] </SS> [so] it's it's very interesting to know </S7>
<S1> is there any evidence of the inbreeding <S7> yeah </S7> depression </S1>
<S7> er no </S7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> [@(it's not it's not) difficult to do some@] [genetic rescue] </S1>
<S7> [that's what i'm thinking @about@] <S1> yeah </S1> <SS> @@ mhm </SS> they said that they have been successful because they can survive bad <S6> [mhm] </S6> [conditions] bad environmental conditions [it's important] </S7>
<S1> [so in this case it's more] like a plant <SS> [mhm] </SS> [er] they too last (xx) <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [er] yeah </S1>
<S7> but not in such a small population size plants for sure have more <S1> [yeah] </S1> [mhm bigger] s- population size not so [small] </S7>
<S8> [but] most of fungi are cloned are are they <S7> erm </S7> <S1> yeah </S1> so the population is cloned [and so yeah] </S8>
<S7> [for not all , the] case that i'm say- i'm talking about is wood inhabiting fungi they are sort of <S8> [okay] </S8> [different] from other <S6> [mhm] </S6> [other] soil inhabit- inhabiting ones <S8> okay </S8> they're very restrictive and specialist </S7>
<S8> yeah but they is it the strategy that they are specialised to live in such habitat so that's why [they are so successful] </S8>
<S7> [yeah they are but they can yes] they can spread their er spores and even parts of <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [hyphae] from to to vast area <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [but] when they are going to (xx) it's so so hard to decide <S1> okay [yeah] </S1> [maybe] they can wait for 200 years </S7>
<S8> yeah maybe it's a tough [topic] </S8>
<S7> [so] patience </S7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S4> [(xx)] it sounds like everybody would have to do @a lot of background reading@ <SS> @@ </SS> on the subject </S4>
<S1> yeah </S1>
<S7> that's why there has been lots of methods er er evolved to detect the inactive form of of fungi to detect spores and hyphae on pieces of wood </S7>
<S1> so now i realise how much how (xx) you like the fungi <S7> <SS> [@@] </SS> [@okay@] </S7> [@@] if you want them to study fungi you have to rationalise to them that fungi is so important and so [fascinating so interesting] </S1>
<S8> [yeah but i mean] one of the parts of successful scientist is also how to sell your product </S8>
<S1> yeah that's [important] </S1>
<S8> [so it's] really good that you you like very much your subject and you try to convince other people <S6> [mhm] </S6> [that it's] important because you have <SS> [mhm] </SS> [evidence for it and it's] that is also very important part in a research plan how you <SS> [mhm yeah] </SS> [sell your product so] the reasoning and why and <S1> [yeah] </S1> [why] it's so important is very good </S8>
<S1> so remember you can er search the internet after that <S8> mhm-hm </S8> and find some try to find some evidence of inbreeding depression so you can tell [@@] </S1>
<SS> [mhm yeah] </SS>
<S8> [yeah] </S8>
<S7> actually the idea was we just to think about it not even come er to er emphasise on having such kind of proposal for the i just want to know if this could (be best) </S7>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [that's good] </S8>
<S1> <S7> [(xx)] </S7> [okay] does someone have a special @special preference for some species@ </S1>
<S8> yeah <SS> mhm </SS> okay </S8>
<S9> so let me ask was there any aquatic @ones@ </S9>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S3> [there was the harbour seal] </S3>
<S8> [second preference] </S8>
<S9> sorry </S9>
<S3> harbour seal and then there are some animals that i or i don't know what they are but i don't wanna study (any) (xx) </S3>
<S1> so why do you want to study aquatic animal </S1>
<S9> erm </S9>
<S8> plants </S8>
<S9> no thanks </S9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> algae </S8>
<S9> no </S9>
<SU-7> microbes </SU-7>
<S9> i mean i s- said animal because i bec- why do why animal </S9>
<S1> aquatic species </S1>
<S9> i i said because why aquatics , i just because they it's interesting which factors er drives them to inbreeding because in terrestrial er case it's always the not always but most of the cases it's the habitat (permutation) </S9>
<S8> [mhm-hm that's a good point] </S8>
<S1> [mhm i see] [okay] </S1>
<S6> [mhm mhm] </S6>
<S2> [there is erm] thing about er plankton which live in pools in <S8> mhm-hm </S8> shore shore [pools] </S2>
<S1> [(daphne)] <S6> yeah </S6> <S2> yes </S2> (daphne) yeah </S1>
<SS> uh-huh mhm </SS>
<S2> it's aquatic species and they are quite easy to move and keep </S2>
<S8> mhm-hm okay mhm-hm </S8>
<S9> so should we er decide what kind of question we wanna answer and then choose [the animal and then the method] </S9>
<SS> [mhm-hm] [mhm] </SS>
<S3> [okay] i think er i think the the idea wa- was that we should do something with genetic rescue <S6> mhm </S6> and i think it's maybe too big if we start if we started studying like the reasons for inbreeding or or in- or we shouldn't i think er we shouldn't study the inbreeding itself but but we should take some species where we know it is inbred <S6> yeah <S4> [mhm] </S4> [mhm] </S6> [and] then how genetic rescue <S6> [mhm] </S6> [affects] it or that's how i understood that t- this is what we should do </S3>
<S9> yeah but then from other point of view er the causes of inbreeding is is like they helping you to to know what you can do to remove the causes and <SS> mhm </SS> to start saving the population </S9>
<S8> and you can also decide to have a bigger study like you first study inbreeding if it's there then you decide to rescue the population there is no limit <S1> @@ </S1> just your fantasy </S8>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S3> so we can do a fifty years' study </S3>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [yes] </S8>
<S7> erm </S7>
<SU-4> you can take fungi </SU-4>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S8> you can also think instead of a master's study it can be a PhD study so four years </S8>
<S7> we can even imagine that we know there's a kind of a population and that species for this reason and that reason is suffering from from mhm er inbreeding depression and then we all decide what to do now we have lots of case studies before , could we imagine such a thing </S7>
<S8> sure then you reason [or you justify] </S8>
<S7> [(another goal)] </S7>
<S8> your previous <S7> [yeah] </S7> [results] and then from that [you build sure] </S8>
<S7> [yeah for example our studies] have have shown in 20 or 30 years before that this population has kind of decreasing <S8> [mhm] </S8> [size] decreasing fitness and so on and now we are proposing to (go on) to to mhm evaluate the result of rescue effect in this population </S7>
<S9> so maybe we can really (xx) when we think about it </S9>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S7> [mhm mhm] cos- considering not just the population size uh-huh and we can say that @@ and we have the at the end i i i'm sorry of just being not very in order </S7>
<S8> no no no i mean this is brainstorming you can also [tell about your (xx)] </S8>
<S7> [i just want you to not] to very be so strict on the organism but (to) the whole plan erm <S8> mhm-hm </S8> and er just propose a duration of this study of of how the introduced individuals have affected this population and er showing some er kind of f- figures and er different factors which are the , which are figures of well-being of the population for example er fitness figures and population size and habitat quality and so on <S8> mhm-hm </S8> and then after 50 or 30 mhm p- er mhm period of study you can er erm just for sure say that this res- rescue effect was successful or not </S7>
<S8> mhm-hm so you mean , well okay so [the fi-] </S8>
<S7> [or not] not 30 but </S7>
<S1> [@@] </S1>
<S8> [no no] what i mean is [like er everything it's it's fine] </S8>
<S7> [(just that the thing is duration)] </S7>
<S8> er the only thing it has to be real or something close to real study </S8>
<S7> just just we cannot <S8> mhm </S8> (xx) duration just 10 years (xx) </S7>
<S8> yeah but maybe using results from <S7> [or even] </S7> [other] studies that somehow tells you <S6> [mhm] </S6> [in] a similar organism something similar can happen </S8>
<S7> or even or er predicting the result by model and then <S8> mhm-hm </S8> starting a field work after that <S8> yeah </S8> predicting for 30 years and starting (xx) of that <S8> okay </S8> do you think so , (yeah that is) </S7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S1> er by the way er i think one (xx) (for example) or or case studies have er very good historical data operation dynamics data so in this case er you can infer some genetic rescue but if you don't have that data <S8> mhm-hm </S8> it might be difficult </S1>
<S8> and i think that was her point <S1> [yeah] </S1> [so] , yeah </S8>
<S7> mhm so to speak </S7>
<S1> and what i felt interesting is er first er in the beginning of the discussion she said er so let's decide for animals and then choose the theme but after some point er she said so let's de- er decide the theme [so] <SU> [mhm] @yeah@ </SU> first case er you start from the animals and decide the same theme <SU-8> mhm-hm </SU-8> but er after some discussions er you said er let's decide the theme and decide the animals or something </S1>
<S9> yeah because we <S8> mhm </S8> <S1> yeah </S1> everybody have their choices and <S8> [yeah] </S8> [it's] easier to find out the question first </S9>
<SU-3> [it's a] </SU-3>
<S1> [yeah] <S8> mhm </S8> so there <S6> [mhm] </S6> [is er] @@ basically er two ways <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [to do] research a- any kind of research researches metapopulation research to any kind of ecological research you can er go from the animals or you can go from the sa- some ecological phenomenon <SU> mhm </SU> i think that's very interesting er important <S6> mhm </S6> and also as er er <NAME S4> said model systems i- become very important if you want to find some general ecological phenomena <SU-4> mhm-hm </SU-4> so consider that and decide the er project <S8> mhm </S8> and it's also interesting er to compare er two different types of the er <S8> [mhm-hm] </S8> [results] one is (to look at result of) some specific species and other (xx) a specific topic so that [(xx)] </S1>
<S8> [you can also] decide to do one case study and one theoretical study <S1> [yeah] </S1> [we] have read about the paper that <NAME S4> presented , you can see how much you can do in the lab and how much these can influence your conclusion and then you can try to apply it to real and wild populations that's another option </S8>
<SU-3> mhm </SU-3>
<S1> yeah so now we have little time to discuss and what er you have to do until next session is er decide some theme <S8> mhm-hm </S8> yeah it's er okay just the one or if you have come up only one idea it's er okay for individual to (have) different idea but anyway er please er discuss together and </S1>
<S8> yeah discuss together come up with a not the final but at least a draft plan <SS> mhm </SS> so basically what is your reasoning one sentence what animal and why or what plant and why and what you think is the method you will apply and what you expect it means less than a page just four sentences but then we will discuss on that and it means also that you have to meet before the next time and we planned this in a way that you have to work together because one important aspect of research is collaboration so you have to learn to become a group </S8>
<S1> er and a small thing er if you want to know which animals (is begun now) er <S8> mhm-hm </S8> suffering inbreeding you can also choose er such from just normal google <S6> [mhm] </S6> [because] er there's there's er already er er studies from some researchers so they already plan some genetic rescue using these species so if you find s- some interesting species that's suffering er inbreeding depression you can use such er data or information </S1>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S8> and of course if you need to read more or search more researchers you are very welcome to do so <SS> @@ </SS> <SU> mhm </SU> depends on your time and other things you are doing </S8>
<SS> mhm yes </SS>
<S7> do you think new zealand birds can be a good choice for our proposal because just it has been shown that they are suffering from inbreeding but nobody has taken this into account yet at least in management just the data in 2006 showed that they are starting to suffer from depression , wild populations are just so gro- so er great that nobody is caring about inbreeding depression they just say that oh there are lots of birds in very good condition never ever dying , do you think it ca- can be a good choice </S7>
<S6> yeah [sure] </S6>
<S9> [but] then what's the purpose w- what it's w- we couldn't apply the rescue effect on anything </S9>
<S7> er to just to consider that we know that this population even though it is in a big size is suffering from inbreeding depression so if we are ta- we are taking the decisions what would we do for this inbreeding , do we introduce some birds to this island or we are going to just to translocate them to another habitat what we are to do <SU-9> [mhm] </SU-9> [could] it be a good case </S7>
<S9> mhm but i didn't get it like for what <S7> [erm] </S7> [for] what purpose we're asking money i mean what the money is for what will you do with the money how how we er [study that] </S9>
<S7> [to be asked erm] to to mhm long-term pre- mhm preservation of er new zealand lamb new zealand birds long-term persistence because the data shows that this population will not go on for a long time </S7>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S3> i think the problem is that that genetic rescue is maybe better used when the population is small already <SS> [mhm] </SS> [so] we couldn't really we couldn't really apply it to </S3>
<S7> big-size [populations] </S7>
<SU-4> [to rescue yeah] </SU-4>
<S3> maybe we could <S7> [that's that's what] </S7> [compare the new zealand] birds with with some other birds that or some other small bird populations for example and then we could like compare different </S3>
<S4> solutions [for] </S4>
<S3> [different] solutions for for [protection] </S3>
<S7> [this is what] i myself i'm thinking about it </S7>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S3> yeah we could maybe here are some in this list are some other birds </S3>
<S1> they may be here </S1>
<S3> erm if we would find somebody that some some bird species that has small population size so then we could do do this kind of rescue experiment on on that one and then we could do maybe some other some other things with the new zealand birds </S3>
<S1> okay so we are [going] </S1>
<S8> [you are on the right track] [@so@] </S8>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S1> so try to agree the er time when you meet and the where , excellent discussion and @@ and also (i like it) er the (xx) work is very er interesting to know er (xx) er there are lot of er (there's a (xx) of) metapopulation with different inbreeding level so er in this case you can mani- manipulate populations in wild <S8> mhm-hm </S8> and you have a lot of implications just like y- er said er you said like er this the er er idea er you you said er we can compare different populations <SS> mhm </SS> within single species with different level of inbreeding </S1>
<S8> you similarly can do that as <NAME S4> suggested that it's a long-term study on butterfly and our group does it and you have many data <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [you can] also make <S1> [yeah] </S1> [many] studies on this because ecological data and some genetic data are already there </S8>
<SS> mhm-hm [mhm] </SS>
<S1> [and] you don't need to be very anxious @@ yeah </S1>
<S1 AND S8 LEAVING>
<S8> [okay] </S8>
<S3> [should] should we decide then that we </S3>
<S1> good [bye] </S1>
<S3> [meet] some time and then everybody tries to [think what] </S3>
<S9> [does everybody] have to go now </S9>
<S5> [i have to leave because (it's er)] </S5>
<S4> [yeah i could stay] </S4>
<SU-3> i could stay </SU-3>
<S9> what about you </S9>
<S6> i have to leave , right now @@ </S6>
<S9> okay then (xx) time (xx) everyone <SU> mhm </SU> do you have to leave now [but we should meet other time] </S9>
<S6> [i don't really have to] but i would like to </S6>
<S3> well my problem is that i i have other courses from [ten to five every day so before ten or after five] </S3>
<S9> [because for me , yeah yeah for me it's the same for me it's complicated] also </S9>
<S4> but it wouldn't have to take long actually if we try to focus before we <SU> yeah </SU> meet <SU> mhm </SU> then we <S6> yeah </S6> and then perhaps we could just meet and discuss and then one could like write write an A4 paper to send to <NAME S1> or no we didn't even have to send it to take with on thursday <SS> mhm-hm </SS> so </S4>
<S9> [so this thursday] </S9>
<S4> [just to make like some general] decisions it it wouldn't probably take a very long time </S4>
<S6> okay </S6>
<S3> we should meet other either on tuesday or wednesday morning [or after five] </S3>
<S9> [morning] (xx) </S9>
<S3> well after five is the other solution </S3>
<S6> wednesday would be the m- i guess mhm or yeah [yeah] </S6>
<S9> [yeah] wednesday wouldn't be good </S9>
<S6> at at least not at least not tomorrow morning because we don't need er we don't have not enough time to think about it i think [(xx)] </S6>
<S4> [mhm] yeah it's true </S4>
<S9> so maybe wednesday </S9>
<S4> wednesday </S4>
<S6> [morning or evening] </S6>
<S3> [do you want to meet] in the morning or in the evening </S3>
<S7> for me [the morning] </S7>
<S9> [in the morning] <SU> [yeah] </SU> [already] before nine </S9>
<SU-4> yeah i think mornings are </SU-4>
<S7> yeah yeah very early </S7>
<SU> [er] </SU>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S9> okay so at eight </S9>
<S7> eight </S7>
<S6> yeah <SS> [okay yey] </SS> [let's let's go search in] yeah </S6>
<S7> @@ just have your breakfast @here@ </S7>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> but eight is quite i mean do we need if you start at ten do we need two hours </S4>
<S3> well i think </S3>
<S4> for discussion i don't think so [i think one hour it's enough , oh you have at nine okay] </S4>
<SS> [yes , okay] </SS>
<S3> okay so then it's we meet from eight to nine <S4> yeah </S4> and then we try to be <S2> [yeah] </S2> [very] efficient </S3>
<SS> yeah </SS>
<S2> and where do we meet </S2>
<S4> oh where </S4>
<S6> at w- wednesday wednesday </S6>
<S3> wednesday at eight should we meet [upstairs in the (xx)] </S3>
<SU> [(xx)] </SU>
<SS> yeah </SS>
<S6> okay , see you </S6>
<SS> okay see you </SS>
