<TITLE: Citizenship Education
ACADEMIC DOMAIN: behavioural sciences
DISCIPLINE: education
EVENT TYPE: seminar discussion
FILE ID: USEMD190
NOTES: 

RECORDING DURATION: 118 min 48 sec

RECORDING DATE: 30.10.2006

NUMBER OF PARTICIPANTS: 31

NUMBER OF SPEAKERS: 31

S1: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S2: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Austria); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S3: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish (Argentina); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S4: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 17-23

S5: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Japanese; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 31-50

S6: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Lithuanian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S7: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Czech; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S8: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

NS9: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: English (USA); ACADEMIC ROLE: other; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S10: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S11: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: French; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S12: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S13: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German (Switzerland), Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: female; AGE: unknown

S14: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S15: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Dutch (Belgium); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S16: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S17: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Catalan, Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S18: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S19: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S20: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Portuguese (Brazil); ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S21: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S22: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: German; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: male; AGE: 24-30

S23: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: junior staff; GENDER: female; AGE: 51-over

S24: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Russian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

BS25: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Cantonese, English (Hong Kong); ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S26: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: undergraduate; GENDER: female; AGE: 17-23

S27: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S28: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Spanish (Colombia); ACADEMIC ROLE: research student; GENDER: male; AGE: 31-50

S29: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Latvian; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

S30: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: unknown; ACADEMIC ROLE: unknown; GENDER: male; AGE: unknown

S31: NATIVE-SPEAKER STATUS: Finnish; ACADEMIC ROLE: masters student; GENDER: female; AGE: 24-30

SU: unidentified speaker

SS: several simultaneous speakers>


<S23> so now today we are we have orientation lecture and we are working you are working quite much and we are working together and tomorrow we have consumer citizenship education consumer citizenship education and taina männistö from consumer agencies is visiting us and maybe it's much enough to read this tomorrow is it and on thursday is our <NAME S5> and <NAME S5> please maybe you can say now something <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [what] you are talking on thursday about </S23>
<S5> yes erm on thursday i will be i have been thinking what i can talk about er in this class er citizenship education and i thought maybe you might be i'm not sure @whether you are interested@ [@in it or not@] </S5>
<S23> [yes but] you can have two hours </S23>
<S5> or maybe i can of course i can speak about japan and then i thought probably i can talk a lot a little bit about the citizenship education in japan and there are several controversy issues in japan at this moment like er moral education and er some other things that they get to <S23> [mhm] </S23> [(will) teach] so well i will talk a little bit about that and i will give time for discussion maybe yes </S5>
<S23> is it okay </S23>
<SU> it is okay </SU>
<S23> yes </S23>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S5> is there anything particular that you are interested about japanese education besides this </S5>
<S23> please tell because on thursday we can hear everything </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> [@no no not everything@] if i speak everything it <S23> [yeah] </S23> [will be] whole day </S5>
<S23> but is it possible that you are taking all this er three hours so that we can talk </S23>
<S5> three [hours oh i can use three hours @yes@] </S5>
<S23> [or er or or let's see let's see] let's see yes but anyway controversial issues </S23>
<S5> mhm-hm [yeah so i think the] </S5>
<S23> [is main topics] and i think we can continue about this issue controversial issues <SU> yeah </SU> because it's something very very special in citizenship education fine but i think we would like to hear something else maybe but we can ask you [about the rest] </S23>
<S5> [yes of course] yeah </S5>
<S23> <NAME S14> </S23>
<S14> maybe you could say something just mhm it doesn't belong to this but er just about the school system in general <S5> mhm </S5> <S23> mhm </S23> not really in detail but </S14>
<S5> only [some yes] </S5>
<S14> [but generally] how you start when you start the school and how many years [just (xx)] </S14>
<S5> [mhm okay er in] other class like i think er professor <NAME>'s class i have already <SU> [yeah] </SU> [talk-] talked about that </S5>
<S14> uh-huh i [didn't know that] </S14>
<S5> [but but] i still have some (material) something i can distribute again and then a little bit and then also erm i i just came back from japan this last night <SS> [@@] </SS> [and er i heard so much] news about the bullying in japan so many students are killing themselves er even in the past few weeks were like er not only one two or three and it was quite shocking and then i'm probably i will talk a little bit about that too </S5>
<S23> mhm yes i think it's it's very sad but it's very important and just when we are in finland because we have more and more same problem you and we are leading countries , not nice to @say@ </S23>
<S21> maybe we can also talk about er (xx) for example erm there's there is really so much er pressure erm erm to erm japanese students </S21>
<SU-5> er [(of what)] </SU-5>
<S21> [pressure] so there er there's really s- er pressure </S21>
<S5> pleasure </S5>
<SS> [pressure] </SS>
<S21> [pressure] </S21>
<S5> oh pressure @okay yes@ <S23> [yeah] </S23> <S21> [yeah] </S21> [yes yes] that's also [debated yes] </S5>
<S21> [and you're talking] about suicides er of er young er japanese students <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [and] maybe you can [tell something about] </S21>
<S5> [yes i erm] of course i will do that <S21> [yeah] </S21> [yeah] okay thank you </S5>
<S23> and is it possible that we say to <NAME S5> please try to manage in two hours <SS> @@ </SS> but let's look what it happens <S5> alright </S5> is it @okay@ because i think it's really very interesting and on friday we are visiting can you read trade union of education in finland , <FOREIGN> O-A-J </FOREIGN> and rautatieläisenkatu six . maybe i put this paper so you can read it , rautatieläisenkatu <FOREIGN> kuu- </FOREIGN> six <FOREIGN> kuusi </FOREIGN> , if you can't read my , what i have written , and it is in pasila everybody knows where pasila is </S23>
<SU> yeah </SU>
<SU-3> i [don't] </SU-3>
<S23> [and] @er@ you can see @er@ both trams seven both seven trams are stopping just near this O O-A-J house so <WRITING ON BLACKBOARD, P:15> you can see one white big house near tram stops and there are letters O-A-J <FOREIGN> AKAVA </FOREIGN> and so quite many steps (stop) and so (l- left) not so easy to find but they always found it @so@ and we meet there nine o'clock is it okay and i- is here somebody who can't come , so fine everybody is coming because i have to tell the and do you know somebody who would join our course would and is not today , if you so i mean i don't want to give him or her some surprises we are not here , but i think we are all here now . oh and who are new <NAME S3> is new we have not met but we have met <NAME> okay <NAME> er yes he is <SS> @@ </SS> but we know each other <SU> yes </SU> @yes@ and you have got my mail you can i hope they are taking contact with you i must [(xx)] </S23>
<S4> [yes] (xx) you were inside there there but i'm so absent-minded that's my problem </S4>
<S23> and somebody else so it was no new (xx) all names okay who are you and fr- where are you from </S23>
<S13> <NAME S13> from switzerland <S23> from </S23> switzerland </S13>
<S23> switzerland and where in switzerland </S23>
<S13> from the north </S13>
<S23> okay <FOREIGN> willkommen </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S13> @thank you@ </S13>
<S23> @okay@ <FOREIGN> deutsch ist meine lieblingssprache </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S13> <FOREIGN> ah so[@@] </FOREIGN> </S13>
<S23> <FOREIGN> [ja ja] ja </FOREIGN> okay , now i would like <PREPARING OVERHEAD, P:06> can i (do this) , okay , i don't really know how much you have been talking and or thinking what this citizenship education should be but please , write for yourself some let's is it possible that we are taking so 15 minutes time and everybody is writing on his or her papers what is citizenship education , er why why to study it and how to study it and so we are making our orientation , clear . citizenship education what is it why to study it how to study it is it okay please concentrate and make it alone </S23>
<PAUSE 15 MIN, TRACK CHANGE>
<S23> are you ready <SS> yeah </SS> yes maybe you are so ready that you started already to tell what you have written <SS> @@ </SS> or now i would really like that we go so through them that everybody has pleasure to say something and if you don't mind okay you have written in your paper mhm yeah i don't need this paper sorry there so is it possible that we are making so that everybody really has right to say pleasure to say and you can choose which question you have you would like to tell , others and please be very very concentrated because if somebody is saying something about what citizenship education is so if you don't agree let's debate so er now are rules clear everybody has pleasure to answer and you have pleasure you have right to choose which question you are answering and i don't know but i think <NAME S1> you have been thinking you are happy to start <SS> [@@] </SS> [are you] </S23>
<S1> of course </S1>
<S23> of course yes because i was thinking i can start there but i was thinking you are disappointed </S23>
<S1> oh [@really@] </S1>
<S23> [so] <NAME S1> er [(please)] </S23>
<S1> [i will] choose the question what it is </S1>
<S23> what is yes </S23>
<S1> because i'm not sure @what it is@ and maybe we can discuss about it <S23> yes yes yes [yes] </S23> [i] think every country has its different mind about education er every country has its own norms and values and i think citizenship education tells us about these different minds about education </S1>
<S23> different </S23>
<S1> minds or different thinking [about it] </S1>
<S23> [yes] yes and how are you calling it in your country </S23>
<S1> i have never had i have never had this citizenship education <S23> [okay] </S23> [so i] don't know don't know it </S1>
<S23> yes you i think you are talking about <FOREIGN> bürgerschaft </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S1> what sorry </S1>
<S23> i have forgotten this name i te- i'll tell you later <S1> [@okay@] </S1> [i have] very much german material <S1> [okay] </S1> [yes] and do you have some questions to <NAME S1> </S23>
<S1> is it right this </S1>
<S23> is it right </S23>
<S1> i @mean@ </S1>
<S23> [how h-] </S23>
<S1> [i was] not sure so @@ </S1>
<S23> yes . <NAME S1> is now our starting star please . you said all countries have different </S23>
<S1> i mean there are similar one but i <S23> [yes] </S23> [think] every country has its own <S23> [yes] </S23> [values] and norms which they give to the children <S23> mhm </S23> and i wanted to know if my interpretation <S23> [mhm] </S23> [is] right right </S1>
<S23> i think it was a good very good start <NAME S2> </S23>
<S2> erm why to study it here maybe it's er very important for er teachers and students who will become teachers because erm i think (it's true) but er <NAME S1> says that it's true that erm yeah many countries have this own education so it's important for teachers because when you have immigrants in your class or something that you know the background of their [education] </S2>
<S23> [mhm-hm] . and maybe you will tell later about this , how important it should be for instance for you to help people from different countries to feel like at home <S2> [mhm] </S2> [in] your country mhm-hm , [yes] </S23>
<S3> [okay] er well i was i'm not sure what it is but i think it is a kind of framework er to understand the behaviour of people living together in society and er and also to understand the reason why people behave in one way or another <S23> mhm-hm </S23> because all the people tend to do it in a different way depending on where they're from <S23> mhm </S23> so as i- as er we are studying education it would it is important i agree with them <S23> [mhm] </S23> [to] know how people behave or act so this might have a psychological background <S23> mhm-hm </S23> er so it's important to know it </S3>
<S23> mhm-hm </S23>
<S4> erm i think (mhm we we call it erm) more sociocultural information and why to study it is erm because er we live in varie- very dynamic society with a lot of different erm actors in the society and it's very important for people to know how to interact with each other especially in our democratic system how to communicate about erm very important issues and like about the the controversial issues and try to erm try to figure out how in one territory or one setting how people can communicate about their different values and norms and try to get them in the same direction (xx) </S4>
<S23> fine mhm-hm </S23>
<S24> erm @me@ </S24>
<S23> <NAME S28> please </S23>
<S28> okay <COUGH> (first) one i would say that er citizenship ed- education is the education about for the society it's a part of society er why to study it er for it's important to be participant in this today society and how to study through analysis of the education of societies with a high level of citizenship [conscience] </S28>
<S23> [mhm] , and may i ask you you were talking very much about this how important it is for society <S28> yes </S28> what does it mean for you </S23>
<S28> er a group of people <S23> [yes yeah mhm] </S23> [different culture different backgrounds but living] under the same rules </S28>
<S23> mhm . and maybe you guess i'm asking what you mean with same rules </S23>
<S28> [there's] </S28>
<S23> [people] say i'm making too much questions [sorry] </S23>
<S28> [no] no of course with the same rules because <S23> [yeah] </S23> [that's] a society <S23> [mhm yeah] </S23> [they share] the same [rules] </S28>
<S23> [yes] society <S28> [yes] </S28> [can] be a group <S28> yes </S28> with some [(xx) rules] </S23>
<S28> [but with these] similar rules <S23> yes </S23> different background of <S23> [yes] </S23> [people] but with similar [rules] </S28>
<S23> [mhm] , right </S23>
<BS25> okay erm <COUGH> i'll answer the what is it first because it's more important to define it before i answer the rest of the questions er i think it's well like a getting a better understanding of your culture of your identity of your erm nationality as well as the rights and responsibility responsibility of being like a citizen sh- of a country </BS25>
<S23> mhm i think you are talking very interesting and you are really giving very much material because we it's very important that we know our roots too so our own culture <BS25> mhm-hm </BS25> yeah , you look so that you would like to continue , or [have you finished or have you finished] </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<BS25> yeah i'm more or less like it's just more like about understanding of your , i think it's more like about understanding of your rights and responsibility of being a citizen of your country <S23> [mhm] </S23> [like] yeah [i think] </BS25>
<S23> [mhm] and sometimes we have @really to work@ to understand our life and our behaving <BS25> mhm-hm </BS25> yeah fine thanks <NAME S24> </S23>
<S24> i think there's er (xx) but it's like er dealing with the relationships between the members of society and erm economics belief system of this policy making and er i think the aim is to improve this interaction between them and make er citizens of the country understand er these systems and to influence these systems and to be responsible for their actions and for what's happening in the country <S23> [mhm] </S23> [and] i think that er we can make it t- er if we will involve children in this er system and this education (everywhere) so not just theoretical side of this but at school but like practical so we can explain how to erm use their rights and their erm s- er after finishing school <S23> mhm </S23> in their real life </S24>
<S23> mhm and <S24> [as] </S24> [are] you talking quite much about life life skills </S23>
<S24> er no i mean er erm of their rights in society <S23> mhm-hm </S23> er the right to vote or something i don't <S23> [mhm] </S23> [know] er that deals with economics and <S23> [mhm mhm] </S23> [politics and] er education of their own children later <S23> mhm , [fine] </S23> [so] they will actively participate in it [later] </S24>
<S23> [yeah] yes is here somebody else from <FOREIGN> belgien </FOREIGN> than <NAME S4> </S23>
<S15> yeah me </S15>
<S23> yeah oh yes <S15> [yeah] </S15> [of course] <NAME S15> yes please belgian students tell us do you have only right to vote or do you have something [more] </S23>
<S4> [the du-] the duty to vote </S4>
<S23> have everybody heard </S23>
<SS> mhm no </SS>
<S4> the duty to vote </S4>
<S23> they have duty to vote and please tell something more about this because i think it's very very interesting </S23>
<S4> erm if we don't go voting we can er we can get a fine or something or even @go to jail for it@ but erm it's quite important that everybody erm is erm included in the system to vote but there's also like there's a problem with the immigrants not everybody that is in the society can vote so it's actually quite quite er difficult but er i don't really know why we have the duty to vote but i think they don't trust the @people that@ they would go to vote it's to have erm to have to make everybody involved in the democratic system </S4>
<S23> mhm it's very interesting </S23>
<S3> just as <SS> [yeah] </SS> [it's the same] in holland yeah </S3>
<S4> because i wanted to to react on the fact that she focused on how to use your right <S23> [yes] </S23> [but] i think it's very important as well to know what your duty is towards society <S23> mhm </S23> so (xx) the responsibility you have </S4>
<S23> maybe i was reading your thoughts </S23>
<S3> yeah also wh- always when there is a right there is a duty behind it <S23> mhm [yes] </S23> [so] it's kind of the same </S3>
<S23> mhm </S23>
<S28> after how many years an immigrant have the right to vote after how many years [of] </S28>
<S4> [erm] it's it's changing now if if you erm get the the belgian erm nationality i i think after living do you know when when people get the belgian nationality </S4>
<S15> in six years no but [there are several rules] </S15>
<S4> [but i don't think that's really] that that it's not it's not [that certain] </S4>
<S5> [it's so difficult] i think it's [(xx)] </S5>
<S4> [no it's not so] difficult there's also enough er certain period of time on it it's erm you you have to ask it and then they they investigate the case and if you if you can i think if you can get something into society if you're willing to to pay taxes willing to erm erm to erm integrate in society you can get the nationality so but the point is involvement there's also a big er problem with illegal people and that's a lot of people are excluded out of the voting system and the democratic system </S4>
<S23> mhm </S23>
<BS25> er as a citizen what what will happen if you don't @vote@ </BS25>
<S4> mhm </S4>
<S23> [if you don't] </S23>
<BS25> [what will] happen if you don't [vote] </BS25>
<S4> [you] you can get erm er a penalty and you have to pay it or you can erm you can even go to jail but i never heard somebody going to [jail for it] </S4>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<BS25> yes like after the age of eight- 18 [or something] </BS25>
<S4> [if you're] 18 you you have you're you're you're obligated to go voting <SS> mhm-hm </SS> and er like like for me i was here in finland and now we have the opportunity to vote from outside of the country but you also can i had i had to give my brother like a a an a certificate that he could vote for me and </S4>
<S23> mhm-hm , it's very very very interesting and like you said <NAME S3> it's not only about rights it's about duties too and here <FOREIGN> belgien </FOREIGN> is one very very interesting example have you known that you are so interesting have you been [thinking that you others have only rights] </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S4> i i know that there was a difference but <S23> yes </S23> i didn't know that [@we were so special@] </S4>
<S23> [yeah yeah yes] and some belgian students have told me o- for some years ago maybe quite many years ago it was one candidate and his or her name was blanco </S23>
<S4> er no yeah [it's erm] </S4>
<S23> [@yes please <NAME S4> @] </S23>
<S4> you can uh in the in the old system now we use like electronic voting <S23> [yeah] </S23> [systems] and in the old system you could either va- vote on the party on one one person or on or just blanco <S23> mhm </S23> and blanco it's like n- not giving anybody a specific vote but your vote counts for the majority </S4>
<S3> yeah yeah [voting blanco] </S3>
<S4> [and then] and there and then and then there there was the other option and it's just if you make a drawing or or something or if you if you fill in too much people then it just didn't count at all <S23> [mhm] </S23> [but] now with the new system you only can vote blanco but not anymore erm <S15> [@oh yes@] </S15> [not] anymore (xx) <S23> [mhm] </S23> [er] not not they did not count so even if you don't vote you your vote counts actually </S4>
<S23> mhm but i don't really know was it so or was it really so that this candidate <S4> mhm </S4> whose name was @blanco has got many votes@ i don't know </S23>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S4> @i think they were@ </S4>
<S23> but one belgian student has told me blanco has got many many s- many votes @okay@ so thanks and [<NAME S5> please] </S23>
<S5> [okay thanks] i think most of the students have already mentioned but i just wrote it in a very simple way (xx) have to learn the basic rules of the society and then allowed to have a common identity as she mentioned like a nationality as well <S23> mhm </S23> and then also i wrote er right and duty <S23> mhm-hm </S23> , that's the basics then </S5>
<S23> mhm-hm , so please </S23>
<NS9> erm i'll leave the number one question alone i'll do number two it's already defined but erm i thought of it as a proper perspective of future teachers and why do we study it erm looking at the role of a teacher as preparing young people for entering society so er the reason we will study it would be to help to form how we teach and what we teach <S23> mhm </S23> making sure that what we teach are are tools that can be used by somebody who's entering society <S23> [mhm] </S23> [you know] i'm not necessarily giving telling people what to think but you know how to process information that they're going to run into when they walk out of school how to look at the news media and to discern what is good and what is bad <S23> [mhm] </S23> [some] maybe some values are being taught <S23> [mhm] </S23> [so] that's the reason we would understand it and study it ourselves to make sure we we're teaching the right things <S23> [mhm] </S23> [kind of] going back to the antecedent response and reinforcement model that we talked about that's it that's it </NS9>
<S8> very good @@ </S8>
<S23> and how much <NAME NS9> you were thinking you were talking very fine about how to teach have you been thinking how to learn </S23>
<NS9> oh to study it erm i think you <S23> [yeah] </S23> [doing] what you're doing is a perfect example <S23> yeah </S23> actually going to different cultures and studying those things <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [and] seeing what <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [works] and what doesn't work erm studying it is a probably a much broader question and how do we want to <S23> yes </S23> you know but o- obviously you need to understand what requir- the responsibilities are in your own erm you know environment and er and then discern wh- what it is you can teach and what it is you can't teach there are things that you you can't cover in a classroom <S23> [mhm] </S23> [and] it's a waste of time to to try but maybe there's something that's more fundamental that you can you can cover <S23> mhm </S23> er that will teach a a method of dealing with information instead of trying <S23> [mhm] </S23> [to] deal with a specific piece of information <S23> mhm-hm </S23> i don't know if i'm making much sense there <S23> yes yes yes </S23> okay but teaching the way to handle information or where to find information <S23> mhm-hm </S23> versus just handing you something a piece of paper and saying read this and and answer the question at the end of the test </NS9>
<S23> mhm-hm , and i think that maybe you all are talking very much about this but anyway i know many years we have been talking in finland for instance in teacher education we are not worried so much about this are we doing everything with good didactics we have to concentrate more and more how to support children to learn <NS9> mhm </NS9> and er learn to know the the learning process for instance it's very easy to write somewhere what are rights what are duties but how can children really learn it <NS9> mhm </NS9> , and we can come later to it and now please </S23>
<S8> er i understand citizenship education or how the education ca- h- that er okay can can help for for a better living (xx) [do you understand] </S8>
<SS> [mhm-hm] </SS>
<S23> yes we understand you you have you have to be sure </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S8> [yeah er the] the citizenship education can help for for a better living (xx) in the society <S23> [mhm] </S23> [er] i think she she can to be called er v- val- value value education <S23> mhm [the yes] </S23> [value education] is er respect tolerance en- environment environment <SS> [mhm-hm] <S23> [yes yes] </S23> </SS> er i i had time for one @question@ </S8>
<S23> mhm-hm fine , and maybe you would like once tell us more about value value education en- environmental education </S23>
<S8> @er@ </S8>
<S23> value education it's important yes and it's very important when we are thinking about er @@ we both have difficulties with this word <S8> yeah </S8> environment <S8> @@ </S8> <NAME S31> <FOREIGN> ympäristö </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S31> er environment </S31>
<S23> yes yes please pronounce it you are a teacher </S23>
<S31> @@ environment </S31>
<S23> environment [yes yes] </S23>
<SS> [mhm-hm] </SS>
<S8> [environment] environment </S8>
<S23> yes and we are coming from this we are coming to this it's awful this word too <FOREIGN> kestävä </FOREIGN> sustainable <S31> sustainable </S31> sustainable <SU-8> [oh okay] </SU-8> [education] yes <SU-8> yeah [yeah] </SU-8> [yes] and i think we are talking very much about all these subjects here too so fine thanks </S23>
<S7> yeah erm i got through this lecture on my secondary school so @my@ <S23> [fine] </S23> [view] of this was a little bit influenced by this but we in czech it meant that we got a basic picture of how the state works how the government the courts and judges and i don't know a little bit of social system a little bit of economy how all these things together work how we should move in it to vote and these things and it always meant for us that we got the theoretical information and then we er had many visits we had visits in erm city hall in police station in erm court it wasn't the biggest one but always the local one but we could see how it looks like how it little bit works we could talk with some people and later i continued on high school with something like this so we also had a look in prison <S23> mhm </S23> so i think it was this way and i think that erm one of the things of this lecture was also to learn us a little bit to be patriots of the country because i had a feeling when i look back on it that yeah many of my classmates at the time that we were a little bit ashamed for the country we always looked in the western countries and we saw how good they can be and my country wasn't like this so it was a little bit that we felt ashamed so it would also maybe to to not to be ashamed and to feel proud <SS> [mhm-hm] </SS> [that] we are from this country (xx) </S7>
<S23> and now you are ready to struggle all countries [are as good] </S23>
<S7> [yeah i think it] really doesn't ma- i don't think that it was because of @citizenship education@ but really i think that the feeling's changed <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [after] some time that <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [it's] really not <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [we] aren't ashamed any more </S7>
<S23> yes and er they are really very interesting issues you are talking <S5> [mhm-hm] </S5> [about] because i think maybe in western countries there are some good things you can pay with money but maybe these countries have <SIC> losed </SIC> they have not more some values you can't buy with money and er so it's really not good or bad and so on and i would be very when you are talking about we have you been together </S23>
<S7> no no no [i @mean@] </S7>
<S23> [no okay] so you so maybe you are (xx) today or later telling about some thoughts what you have for the prison </S23>
<S7> @oh well we really couldn't walk@ and to see the real prisoners but it was just that we er had erm we had some i don't know lecture <S23> [mhm] </S23> [with] some talker their speaker and then the it was a little bit erm like a museum of the communism time <S23> [mhm] </S23> [at the] beginning so there were the real cells there were er some cases described when some mhm people because of their thoughts <S23> [mhm] </S23> [were] er killed also there were some things during the second world war when it was the place where people were killed because er they er were jews or political crime prisoners in the second world war (so it was this) but we really couldn't walk and look at the real <S23> [mhm mhm-hm] </S23> [prisoners no-one was] allowed there </S7>
<S23> has somebody else visited prison <SU> mhm-hm </SU> you have okay , i have visited very often and you have only to give a little hint and i'm starting to ask about prison <SS> @@ </SS> because i think it's very important to visit prison because there we really meet some (xx) and er and these people can have very big risk to re-orientate to real world and maybe it's better to stay there because <SIGH> i have started to think more and more prison as social service for instance in finland because people are always returning there and when they are coming there they are asking who else are here and they really feel their life quite good but maybe we can talk later about this and er . yes i'm struggling with me now i'm not more talking now about prison but i try that we are coming to prison and we are talking about cognitive skills for instance because just these people who are in prison they don't need maybe have same cognitive and social skills to cope in real world but er let's try to come back to this okay and <NAME S6> </S23>
<S6> i just write er one aspect of citizenship education that it's very important to for immigrants because er all people who now is travelling all around the world and the globali- er right and gl- globalisation and er er when we immigrant know mhm political climate and our social systems (skills that we) he needs there to participate in the public life <S23> [mhm-hm mhm] </S23> [of the country] and i don't @know@ <S23> yes </S23> , that's all </S6>
<S23> it's important @to know@ what to do and how . have you thought very much about globalisation would you like be happy to tell more [about this] <S6> [mhm] @no@ </S6> yeah okay . i think it's very important sentence act local think global <SS> mhm </SS> a- and it's really one challenge for everybody , but if we could be very much together we could talk one evening about <SU-3> [mhm] </SU-3> [what] is individual (xx) what is global okay but maybe we have to continue now so our spanish students we have not forgotten you </S23>
<S26> so citizen education i think is the best way [to] </S26>
<S23> [is it] better can you move so that you can see everybody can see your faces and you can forget me mhm-hm </S23>
<S26> so i think it's the b- the be- the best way to know to know more about society because i think is it i think it is important to know about it because er it's important to to be a good citizen and necessary to be to have the rights and and know the to know about the behaviour and how how do you you come to be a (xx) so i think you need to learn about citizen education <S23> mhm-hm </S23> you you have to you need some knowledge <S23> mhm </S23> erm to get to be the </S26>
<S23> mhm-hm and have you been thinking citizenship education or maybe civic education </S23>
<S26> i think it's more like the same thing than citizen </S26>
<S23> yes er they are very very near each others and i can't explain in english but in finnish we have different words for this it translates [more clearly] </S23>
<S26> [so i think in] spanish it's very very very similar both concepts citizen and civic </S26>
<S23> yes mhm-hm maybe we are coming to this later too so thanks </S23>
<S27> okay er citizenship education er are skill knowledge behaviour and understanding related with citizenship er it's important for to have a society with er good citizens er and , erm , for er can living together er different er peoples [for me] </S27>
<S23> [mhm-hm] <P:05> have you spanish spanish students have you all spanish students have you been thinking how er people they want nowadays to learn more and more spanish why why has spanish taken so big role anyway i think it's not only in finland , are you coming some commonwealth or why have you noticed more and more people are studying spanish </S23>
<S28> yes <SS> [mhm-hm yes] </SS> [it's probably the] third language in the world with more than 400 million speakers more than 25 countries speak spanish as a <S23> mhm-hm </S23> mother tongue <S23> mhm </S23> and then all this economic er progress in europe is in er spain and that (xx) [(even more)] <S23> [mhm] mhm-hm </S23> so </S28>
<S23> are you happy that all people are talking more and more spanish have you been thinking about it </S23>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S28> i will ask an english speaker if they feel happy about [@having a like a common@ language like an international language the same] </S28>
<S23> [@okay@ or are yes or are] they afraid to lose [something] </S23>
<S28> [yeah] </S28>
<S3> i i was thinking about the the english speaking people who travel everywhere around the world and they can hear people talk in their own language and i wouldn't feel happy if i didn't have to make an effort to talk another language you know <SS> [@mhm@] </SS> [it's like] it's too easy i don't like it but i i wouldn't like it to happen with spanish </S3>
<S23> mhm-hm . fine . so please </S23>
<S10> yeah erm i was thinking that citizenship was really linked with socia- socialisation but also are trying to find the the best way to link all together and to teach you to i think it's very important to teach it to the children but maybe it's difficult to to know what is it to understand what is it for children and so but it has to be learnt very soon also so it's difficult and yeah [(xx)] </S10>
<S23> [mhm-hm] and how are you used to call it are you talking about citizenship education or social education or </S23>
<S10> it's citizenship [education] </S10>
<S23> [yes] okay because in some countries for instance in finland we are talking more about social education </S23>
<S10> no it's citizenship education <S23> mhm </S23> citizenship skills </S10>
<S23> yeah so thanks and you let's @look@ </S23>
<S11> erm i think it's important to study it but er above all to teach it to younger generations because we have to make er them good citizens and er er i think everybody er should be aware of of erm their rights and duty and erm and er u- they have to understand how the society so- society er works so i think it's important to study it <S10> yeah </S10> and to teach it to the [children] </S11>
<S23> [mhm] and have you been thinking about this is there in general balance between rights and duties </S23>
<S10> yeah <S11> yes </S11> yeah there is mhm usually yeah er but sometimes it's very sometimes difficult to know what the difference is <S23> mhm </S23> with what is a right what is a duty </S10>
<S11> in fact it's very limited <S10> yeah </S10> very limited (xx) <S23> mhm-hm mhm </S23> that's it </S11>
<S23> these words are very important for me when i'm teaching social work for instance and when we are talking something about legislation who has to (xx) <SU-10> yeah </SU-10> who has right to (xx) and how do you know what's there </S23>
<SS> mhm </SS>
<S10> it's sometimes difficult to kno- to know the difference between what you have to do and what you're allowed to do <S23> mhm-hm </S23> but it depend on the [(xx)] </S10>
<S23> [mhm] yes the the er semantic is very interesting so thanks and please </S23>
<S12> er <COUGH> yeah i think in erm in our times it's very important to erm yeah if you want to immigrate in another country erm it's important that the states erm offer courses for these immigrants that they can learn about erm the values and the rights they have in this new country but also <COUGH> sorry er also the limitations they have and what they are not allowed to do <S23> mhm </S23> and yeah i i think it's important that the state the state should in my opinion offer courses to these immigrants that they can erm integrate <S23> [mhm] </S23> [in the] new culture and <COUGH> and in the new erm yeah environment they want to live </S12>
<S23> mhm-hm <P:07> i have been thinking this integration very much and er i would like to tell you that we have got very much feedback for instance some mothers have told their children have not so good time in s- at schools or in kindergartens because people are not giving so much they are not smiling so much they are not giving so much positive feedback or so so we have always to say it's not question about this that you are from different culture we finns we are not used to give it to each others positive feedback or so and i think it's really very important what we should know that people are waiting something more not only the now i'm talking to us to finns how to let people to integrate better into our society so that we really are not used to behave like maybe people from southern or middle europe for instance so it's this natural national character so and please </S23>
<S13> erm i think it's very important for children to know about their roots like where they come from know their erm home country their customs and erm like about their background and when they like when they go into another country when they immigrate or also for erm second gene-generation in a in different country that they erm get included into the society that they get to know about rights and duties <S23> mhm </S23> but that they also get er education in their home home culture <S23> mhm-hm </S23> so that they that they know who they are and where where they come from </S13>
<S23> mhm-hm mhm . and would you like to continue [<NAME S13>] </S23>
<S13> [erm] i could just say that erm like for me i'm half i'm half finnish <S23> mhm </S23> and erm when i was little er i i did go to a finnish course and it was like it was very important to my mum that i i learnt finnish too and when i was so little it wasn't so important for me but now that i grow older i'm a little bit sad that i er that i couldn't learn finnish as well as erm as my mum wanted me to because erm and i think where where i live in switzerland there are not such courses where you can learn finnish <S23> mhm </S23> so i had to go to germany and there was like there were the two groups like one for little children and one for erm like older older children that who could already read and write and <S23> mhm </S23> and the little er the smaller group was for children who were like still playing and i was like in the middle so it was very boring for me to play with the little children and too hard to be with with the <S23> [mhm] </S23> [older] older ones <S23> [so] </S23> [and i] i think it's (xx) </S13>
<S23> so let's start maybe not in @german maybe in finnish@ you took german mhm </S23>
<S13> @sorry@ </S13>
<S23> let's start learn finnish </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S13> <FOREIGN> [mä kyllä puhun@vähän@] </FOREIGN> </S13>
<S23> <FOREIGN> @kiva kiva@ </FOREIGN> [fine] </S23>
<NS9> [a question] <S23> [yes] </S23> [<COUGH>] just something i i was thinking about the other day do you think the finnish language is going to survive for another 30 or 40 years </NS9>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S23> do you i don't know <NAME S31> can you answer </S23>
<SU-3> @mhm-hm@ </SU-3>
<S31> if finnish will survive or <S23> yes </S23> yes i don't know @maybe@ erm well if we think about the european union for instance we er finnish is pretty strong in the european union because we have finnish is a national language and national languages are used in in the european union a- and er er well any any national language we have spanish and er german and finnish and swedish and those languages they are used in the european union they are translated erm translated to different mhm or in er or any mhm people translate to these languages and i think that if if this trend continues then there is no worry er there are no there is nothing to worry about that finnish would die as a [language but] </S31>
<NS9> [er i i'm] just thinking finnish the finnish system is one of the er few that i know of that actually teaches er bi- er bilingually er <S23> mhm-hm </S23> as a child growing up in finland you are taught two languages </NS9>
<S23> or we should talk </S23>
<NS9> or you you should be taught [yeah] </NS9>
<S23> [yes] [mhm-hm] </S23>
<S31> @[we should] yeah@ </S31>
<NS9> and you know especially the young people i haven't met one yet who doesn't speak a fair amount of english <SS> mhm </SS> and er but outside of finland nobody speaks finnish not even the finns do <S23> no </S23> unless they're together <SS> mhm </SS> and if er there's this ongoing evolution of dilution so to speak if if it continues to be diluted a- and you have a lot of influx of foreigners coming in where's the language going to be <S31> [yeah] </S31> [other] than holding onto that cultural aspect of <S31> mhm </S31> you know the country <S31> mhm </S31> i was just curious if you've thought about it </NS9>
<S23> it's very interesting </S23>
<S31> [mhm] </S31>
<S28> [yeah] but but finnish is an official language so it's compulsory to know finnish if you want to have a job [here] </S28>
<SU> [it's] [not it's not] </SU>
<S3> [yeah but la- languages are not made by] compulsory rules they are made by what is happening in the society <S23> mhm </S23> i mean if if there is a transformation in the for example er who was saying that lots of er new people come into finland they will obviously speak er finnish instead of er english instead of finnish and actually the finnish people speak english in such a good way probably probably in the future we don't know when but it's it's a possibility that the trend will be like speaking english instead of finnish er well </S3>
<S28> finland has the had lowest level of immigration of of [the european union] </S28>
<S4> [yeah but it's coming] it's coming more and more if <S23> [mhm mhm] </S23> [you see to the] if you see to the to the er you showed it in in the other course <S3> mhm </S3> in 10 years time there's so much immigration and now it s- it seems that you have to learn finnish to get a job and i don't think they can manage especially with the globalisation if they can manage to contain (xx) </S4>
<S3> w- er wh- what will happen will probably be a struggle of keeping and saving language which is happening in the spain in in in the <S4> mhm </S4> er regions where they speak er another language like galician or catalan or <S23> [mhm] </S23> [whatever] for example i live in galicia and they are like m- ma- making compulsory to study galician to to be able to be an english teacher for example <S23> mhm </S23> so it's like people don't want to even the galicians tend to speak spanish but there are rules just to keep the language so it's just a rule but it's not a trend </S3>
<S16> but er maybe it is happened in galicia but not in catalonia because <SS> [@@] </SS> [in spain no because] i mean er both are (xx) spanish and catalan but er catalan er ev- everybody speaks catalan [you know] </S16>
<S3> [yeah] </S3>
<S17> [yeah] in the school it's only [catalan] </S17>
<S16> [only] in catalan <S23> yeah </S23> and i i don't think <S4> [yes but] </S4> [it's going to] lose </S16>
<S3> that probably happen in the villages but i believe that the young catalans will speak more spanish probably </S3>
<S16> it depends on the er </S16>
<S3> that's [what is] </S3>
<S16> [it depends] no er i either either i speak in in spanish at home (xx) but if i meet someone that speaks in catalan i speak in catalan [(xx)] </S16>
<S14> [sorry is] catalan a strong dialect or is it [(xx)] </S14>
<S3> [no it's an official language] </S3>
<S16> [no no no completely different language] and it's official wi- [er in catalonia and] </S16>
<S17> [but it's not] official in europe </S17>
<S16> no not in europe </S16>
<S14> okay </S14>
<S3> and this is actually the kind of er thought that people in catalonia and galicia they have they want to pretend that it is something that everybody speaks but it's turning to something that most people don't speak [but they want to to defend it in that in such a way] </S3>
<SS> [@@ (xx)] </SS>
<S3> that's the struggle i was talking about [exactly like that] </S3>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S16> you don't live in catalonia </S16>
<S4> no but he's that's what he's talking that it's more about how the people make the erm how how the rules are made a- about it it's er the people maintain to keep the strong language like er i know i've been in catalonia and people didn't want to speak to me if you don't speak catalan <SU-23> [(xx)] </SU-23> [but] i think i think yeah but tha- that's and in finland it's different in finland they're directed so glo- global that they that they want to speak english they don't they don't just speak finnish if they notice you don't speak finnish they start speaking and <SU> [mhm] </SU> [i think] also er media has to do something with it because in belgium everybody speaks er er in the dutch part of belgium everybody speaks quite good er english because we have english television with subtitles <S3> [mhm-hm] </S3> [here it's] the same and once you have that that's quite a different i think if you if you are bilingual it's it's more easy to to go with what everybody talks than just keep your own identity of your language so strongly </S4>
<S3> mhm-hm </S3>
<S28> also like the case in finland is that they still have their swedish groups and their russian groups and they keep the language so now it's easier now it's even easier when you respect [their rights and] </S28>
<S4> [that that that] was just the question and and <S23> [mhm-hm mhm] </S23> [tomorrow it's going to (xx)] but it's interesting i think </S4>
<S23> but do you think if you have right to learn finnish but you have duty to learn finnish @if you are working here@ <S28> yes </S28> , or maybe it's enough with english because we are really such a globalisation -lised society and the er back to finland i have heard we are one of most american societies we are very very little ones <S3> mhm </S3> but anyway we are very much i don't know do we like your lifestyle so much or why but many people say so we are looking very much <S3> mhm </S3> to states i don't know , but it's very interesting with the spanish er culture <SS> @@ </SS> issues and with language and er it may be different when this what <NAME NS9> has made i think we are thinking many days about what <NAME NS9> you were asking us how is it is finnish dying anyway we know catalania or galicia they these languages are not dying but is finnish dying , do you know something about icelandic or er <FOREIGN> fär- </FOREIGN> islands <FOREIGN> färsaaret </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S28> faroe islands </S28>
<S31> faroe islands </S31>
<S23> faroe islands and their language policy they are really working very much to have always their own language and they have very many research research centres and they really don't like such words the internet or helicopter or something like this but i can't tell which their originals words are but they really want er they really want to keep this and i think it's really very very interesting they are not countries they are parts of <FOREIGN> dänemark </FOREIGN> but anyway they have such very very patriotic feeling they are countries they have something very special that they have to have and they can manage and they can cope with they study english <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> and so on but anyway important to have their own language and so give it to next generations too , but let's hope finnish is finnish is not dying <SS> @@ </SS> it's very big challenge to us </S23>
<NS9> er just reflecting on what you just said that er you know in a in societies like that <S23> mhm </S23> i would generally you might describe them as closed <S23> [mhm] </S23> [societies] in other words there's not a lot of globalisation [going on] <S23> [mhm-hm] mhm </S23> in societies like finland where globalisation is it's a picture of globalisation <S23> mhm </S23> erm the dilution is going to happen <S23> mhm </S23> because just because of it and and young and upcoming er finnish students coming through the high school system for example to prepare them for the s- the new society <S23> [mhm] </S23> [they] have to be able to function in a global world as well so <S23> [mhm] </S23> [english] will may become stronger and stronger in [demand] <S23> [yes] mhm </S23> and because there's so many finns going abroad to work and so on finnish may slowly er become something you just wanna hang on to because it's your own iden- it's part of your identity <S23> mhm-hm </S23> but not necessarily a part of what you need in the society [anymore] <S23> [mhm] yes </S23> so i <S23> [mhm] </S23> [i just] i just reflected on that one <S23> mhm </S23> but to to preserve that you have to <S23> [mhm] </S23> [become] a closed society which is not what finland <S23> mhm </S23> the finnish people want i don't [think] </NS9>
<S23> [mhm-hm] </S23>
<S3> and i also heard i don't know if i'm right or not that er there's a particular similarity between like the danish language er and er the swedish and the nor- norwegian <S23> yes </S23> er they're they can understand one another but they cannot understand finnish <SU> [yes] </SU> [because] it's quite different <SS> [mhm] </SS> [so] that's probably [one of the points that make you more isolated] </S3>
<S23> [yes yes yes and they have maybe] problems with finnish swedish too @@ but anyway we are talking about our <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> and do you are you speaking swedish or are you speaking <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S31> well swedish </S31>
<S23> yeah the i can't speak nowadays anymore swe- swedish i i speak always only <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> and i have to look in dictionary only the easiest words because i have been so much in (xx) and what is <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> it is something we everybody has his or her own <FOREIGN> skandinavisk </FOREIGN> we have taken words from all these three languages mhm but <SU> [(xx)] </SU> [then] yes please you were first <NAME BS25> yes </S23>
<BS25> i just want to say something regarding to what he said erm i think globalisation is about like dilution like @it's like@ </BS25>
<NS9> it's a mix </NS9>
<BS25> it's like erm when the immigrants come erm their mo- firstly their mother tongue doesn't have to be english they have their own mother tongue and then they are learning especially the children they are learning finnish as more like the kind of first language more than you know how like they only speak their mother tongue at home but then like they sp- learn finnish in the school and then erm er i actually agree with what <NAME S4> like your question but i think it's like when you when a finn can ta- speak really well in english it doesn't mean that they lose their another like mother tongue language finnish it's just that they are they can be like very fluent and they can they can communicate in english very well it doesn't mean that like it will replace the position of finnish <NS9> mhm-hm </NS9> and also erm i remember what i learnt in the finnish educational history like how this snellman <SS> [@@] </SS> [like @he@] his he put out like the finnish language in order to establish like a very strong finnish nation- national identity national like the culture and schools and how everything is built up because of the finnish language so i think it's like always important to have the more like a local like a country's language to (xx) [in a way @like@ (xx)] </BS25>
<NS9> [mhm mhm-hm i i actually] agree but i just also think i look at what's happened in the last two generations in in any country in finland <S23> mhm </S23> and look at look at how fast it's changed <SS> [mhm] </SS> [if you] can project forward three generations <BS25> mhm </BS25> where where is it going to be because at the rate of change <S23> [mhm] </S23> [i mean] it's almost impossible to to think of [where is something in three] </NS9>
<BS25> [but they're still fluent] in like finnish right like they're like it's still their </BS25>
<NS9> but [yeah but but] </NS9>
<BS25> [it's like more like they're] just building up more languages <S28> [yeah] </S28> [on] top of it </BS25>
<NS9> but two generations ago how many people in finland spoke english </NS9>
<S31> not [@many@] </S31>
<NS9> [or speak] a different another language and at the rate [of change] </NS9>
<S28> [swedish] it was </S28>
<S4> swedish [yeah] </S4>
<S28> [swedish] it was compulsory before <SS> mhm </SS> [(xx)] </S28>
<NS9> [at the rate of change] though two more generations <S23> [mhm] </S23> [from] now where is it going to be it's it's a it's an exponential curve it's not a dra- a straight </NS9>
<PEOPLE ENTERING>
<S23> uh-huh </S23>
<SU> sorry </SU>
<S23> @@ yes </S23>
<NS9> so i mean i just don't know i i mean i really didn't (xx) these things but i don't know </NS9>
<S23> yeah please </S23>
<S16> erm sorry but i i think erm it is more er like this that if if you're bilingual er it's it's not just to communicate it's it's about your culture i mean it's erm you cannot lose your language because it's all your culture that you're losing so i e- even if finnish are learning english it's english it's only to communicate and finnish is like something that you are so i think i think you </S16>
<S17> yeah you're not only [(communicating)] </S17>
<S16> [yeah] mhm [erm er i] </S16>
<S17> [you're not english you're finnish] </S17>
<S16> yeah and and it's i don't know maybe you are just the more you are like this where like where catalan and spanish are are different cultures and it's like if you lose one you're losing like something from you i don't know if you understand <S23> [mhm mhm] </S23> [because it's not] i don't know </S16>
<NS9> can can i use the US as another example i hate to use it <SS> [@@] </SS> [again but] but the US is made up of europeans mostly <S23> mhm </S23> and there is a few native americans by the way who they have very little influence in the country anymore but there's also very strong in- influence now coming from mexico <SS> mhm </SS> it is a prime example of a new culture taking shape from globalisation finland is is a culture that's changing because of globalisation and when that happens the thing that you the things that you hold on to as part of your identity also change because your parents valued being able to speak finnish and swedish maybe a lot stronger than you know the the young culture here does so the culture is changing and they may not two y- two generations from now hold on to the finnish language as strongly as you do or we do or whatever and that's all i'm trying to to say is <S23> mhm </S23> i'm curious to think if anyone has thought about that because there's nothing that says that the value of being able to speak finnish is going to be there two generations from now nothing because it's not spoken anywhere else in the world <S16> but er [i] </S16> [okay] it's not it's not like spanish spanish is spoken in 25 countries <S23> mhm </S23> [so it will not er] </NS9>
<S16> [but are you are you] like bilingual </S16>
<SU> sorry </SU>
<NS9> i can speak a little spanish </NS9>
<S16> but but you have you you don't have two mother tongues wh- that's what i mean </S16>
<NS9> unless i count jamaican as one </NS9>
<S16> yeah but <SS> [@@] </SS> [you know you erm] i think it is going to change maybe globalisation means that you may speak instead of one you can speak five but i don't think it one is going over the others </S16>
<S17> yeah it's [not a fight] </S17>
<S16> [i don't think] it's it's not that one <NS9> [mhm-hm] </NS9> [has] to win to all the others [and] </S16>
<NS9> [mhm-hm] </NS9>
<S28> er i come from a country with more than 60 languages <SU-4> mhm-hm </SU-4> some of them spoken by yes 15 or 20 people and they have preserved that language for about 2,000 years in (xx) </S28>
<NS9> but we've never had globalisation w- er the way we have it today </NS9>
<SS> [mhm-hm] </SS>
<SU> [yeah there's er some languages (xx)] </SU>
<NS9> [we've never had] that before it's a new seasoning in this in this in the pot </NS9>
<S28> erm in some countries just 10 per cent of the people has made a phone call just 10 per cent of the people have made a phone call </S28>
<NS9> let's wait and see this is gonna be interesting </NS9>
<S4> yeah about that we in <S23> [<NAME S4>] </S23> [in belg-] in belgium we we i think we have the problem because it's a really small country and people that only live like not even 100 metres out of each other they couldn't understand each other and now the more and more we get our own flemish or or or in belgium er flemish because we have two languages in belgium er the young people don't know the words that were used it's it's more dialect it's not er not official languages and we just made one official dutch language er the same as in in er the netherlands and it really changed people don't know their old languages anymore and like you say it were it were really small communities that talks only that language people that live together and i think that's what citi- citizenship education is about how do you form your what is the value you wanna keep from your your your small community you live in or do you wanna have a big community and like you say it's going to change and we can tell how it's going to be we we can try to put it into a kind of education but there are so many elements that that [(it may end up being)] </S4>
<S3> [no it has its its] own life it <S4> [yeah yeah] </S4> [it transforms] and it goes we can't cannot cha- [hold it it's] </S3>
<S4> [and and] and and if you want to keep like you say i know in catalan there's a really strong feeling of we are catalans and maybe in [other parts it's not like that] </S4>
<S17> [no but you can be] catalan and [spanish both together] </S17>
<S16> [spanish but but] no </S16>
<S4> yeah yeah [of course of course] </S4>
<S16> [no but maybe] it's because in catalonia it's because it's been forbidden to speak catalan for a l- long time <S4> [you were] </S4> [and] maybe that's because we are more </S16>
<S4> yeah that's <S16> [and] </S16> [right] every every (society) and every community i think has it's own kind of looking to to that value and i think <NAME NS9> can be right but as well maybe just because you now say it there are some finnish people that are going to be like <NS9> [@@] </NS9> [(they no more want to) be the finnish and you can't tell] it it depends on the people and how their education is going to evolve i think but i think that the the citizenship education that goes through non-formal and formal education <S23> [mhm] </S23> [is going to] be very important for that </S4>
<S23> mhm-hm may i ask you everybody knows maybe but i'm asking just spanish students i was not looking TV but who has won football re- er real madrid or barcelona last weekend <SS> @@ </SS> who has won </S23>
<S16> yeah i think real madrid </S16>
<S23> okay because in our news they were saying and today they are playing the real important match real madrid and barcelona but i have forgotten to look or ask who has won but even in finland they are talking so okay . and so now we were in languages and football and please continue is it er <NAME S21> or who no <NAME S14> </S23>
<S14> <NAME S14> @@ yeah about citizenship education what it is i wrote just bullets like rights and duties in the city or in the community and the behaviour especially in the social life this is my view on citizenship education <S23> [mhm] </S23> [(xx)] and why to study it erm i would like to study it to because my future pupils like your future pupils will be mhm are going to be citizenshi- -ships er are going to be citizens in somehow social communities whether er global @or not@ and they i would like to be the an active part of this community <S23> [mhm] </S23> [not] just a passive one who's ada- adopting the the rules and behaviours but who's erm active in this community <S23> mhm </S23> and how to study it just to a- i don't know really but maybe to analyse social life how it goes and how we can integrate people in this life <S23> mhm-hm mhm </S23> that's it </S14>
<S23> how we can integrate and how we may integrate <S14> yes yeah </S14> [and how we have to integrate] </S23>
<S14> [so this i think it's very] important the integration <S23> [yeah] </S23> [you know] if it's not a foreigner but in in the country there are always people who are left out of <S23> [mhm] </S23> [this] community and we need to get them together </S14>
<S23> mhm-hm yes and it's not only sorry i'm talking once again we it's not only question about immi- immigrants or so it's something that we have to know some skills can somebody guess what i'm looking in my bag , maybe you @can may- can maybe you can guess@ , do you know what i'm looking </S23>
<S4> a mobile phone </S4>
<S23> yes <SS> @@ </SS> you have not been in cyber fair but i just wanted to show here to find some place where to show that i have it i have had it you know i have had it two months and i was asking sonera why don't they send me bill because @you have only@ 11 euros during two months and now it's second time it's with me in helsinki so i think i have you have <NAME S14> to integrate me to this world so that i can manage with this it's not only the immigrants and now i'm so afraid that some- it calls because i can't make it without voice now it's all time risk but i'm very happy it's not ringing but i think <SS> @@ </SS> yes i i'm talking with me but i have really promised i try to work with this because for instance some of you i don't know who some of you have written me sent me mail we have tried to call you but i'm never in my office so maybe it's some kind integration in society so too that we are nowadays we have to be so that we are reached <SU> @mhm@ </SU> not it's not only language or something like this for it's not only immigrations it's very big challenge to integrate this all everything do you can you follow <SS> [yeah] </SS> [yeah] yes and please maybe you can give me supervision <SS> [@@] </SS> [okay @yes maybe@] yes but yes [and you] </S23>
<S14> [and] this is one thing also to integrate all the people it means the children with who are just erm going into the si- society as well as erm <S23> [mhm] </S23> [all] the people of er people who don't have work and so on <S23> yes </S23> and people who are yeah left out of <S23> [mhm] </S23> [so- society] to integrate <S23> [mhm] </S23> [them] even though they are actually <S23> [mhm] </S23> [citizens] and they are not from abroad <S23> [mhm] </S23> [but] they have to <S23> yes </S23> (xx) and <S23> [and] </S23> [this is] what i mean </S14>
<S23> yes and there are more and more such skills because normal is not more normal we can't say normal we all are different and we all have different not maybe fates @but@ life situations and so on mhm and so we have to be very sensitive sensitive to read and to hear something what is not written or what is not said , yes fine so please </S23>
<S15> erm i have yeah basically a little bit the same as <NAME S14> like what citizenship education is like erm to learn how to behave if you're living in a er certain community and like the duties and the rights learn that you have to take the responsibilities and also like the example of the duty to vote because of yeah that's what i'm thinking erm if i think about citizenship education it's like something you have to do and also you also er need to have the feeling that you should do it that it's er a duty as a citizen of your country or your community <S23> [mhm mhm] </S23> [to do it i think] it's very important yeah </S15>
<S23> mhm . feelings yes <SU-15> mhm </SU-15> yes i was just tasting this word feelings yes in on many many levels <S15> yeah </S15> yes , and would you like to tell you and <NAME S4> please can you tell to everybody something about your special channels to research here in finland or have you told already </S23>
<S15> we haven't </S15>
<S23> yes have do you know what they are working with no maybe not <S4> no </S4> because i think it has something very much to do with citizenship education too </S23>
<S4> er yeah okay from our home university i'm studying social pedagogy there and erm we are doing erm as a project it's quite for a lot of credits <SS> [@@] </SS> [erm we are doing] a trans-national er study about erm entrepreneurial education training and competences and erm it's because entrepreneurship is now used by most er states and and european union and and i think most er big governments erm as one the most important things that can drive your economy drive your wealth of your your er country and erm also people they want actually people to take control of their own lives and to build up some skills to be entrepreneurs not only in the in the erm on in the domain of like like er business but also just to take erm to take initiatives to be creative to to try to erm to act erm on changes that are happening in society and erm we are trying to figure out here in finland how the erm the policy tries to erm our focus is especially for people that are er unemployed that don't have diplomas erm erm drop-out yeah that's erm woman as well as so people with less chances how the special erm offers are erm for for those people about the entrepreneurship competences as well what's what's here the research about that is erm how it is how organisations try to work to get people more involved with the whole entrepreneurship erm concept actually and i think especially here in finland it's quite interesting to see that they li- like you said they they are very competitive and that's why they are so so directed on globalisation but erm the problem that that we see i think is that there's really not much for people that don't fit into the the regular society so it's they they are directed on people with already er a lot of skills already a lot of money and things like that that it's quite interesting [@mhm@] </S4>
<S23> [mhm] and in how many countries your university [has this you have said] </S23>
<S4> [erm now we're] just erm we're we are only two here in helsinki then there are two people erm doing in barcelona er somebody is er investigating in in salamanca and erm then when we get back we all get back in february and then we are going to focus on the belgian erm situation </S4>
<S23> mhm , i think it's very interesting would you like to add something </S23>
<S15> no [i think that was (adequate)] </S15>
<S23> [okay he has (explained)] it fine <SS> @@ </SS> thanks yes so now we are really learning much more about citizenship education i i had been able to write on slides duties rights and so on but i think it's better way how we can really learn so please </S23>
<S20> like everybody said i think it's citizenship education is erm the education that teach people how to respect the laws and the the rules when you live in a society but also to learn their rights i think it's very important <S23> mhm </S23> what you can do so yeah and then i i think the how to study it it's very hard ta- task because i was thinking like i couldn't find an an answer but i think the first first important thing like if er if you are a teacher you have you you have to be a like example like little things especially for kids i don't know like respect your your students little things it's very <S23> [mhm] </S23> [important] the teacher can be as an example [of a citizen yeah] </S20>
<S23> [mhm-hm mhm] and are you talking about model learning or model teaching <S20> yes </S20> yeah . because if i don't respect if i don't respect you <S20> [mhm-hm] </S20> [here] now you are working to find somebody who are not respecting i think it's really such feedback what we are getting <S20> mhm mhm-hm </S20> and if i may talk about me i believe and i hope you know i respect you all and i know i have told to <NAME S31> too you are very patient i i can't make anything like i should make as teacher in teacher education so if we are talking about didactics or something like this but i hope it compensates something that i really care at my work okay and it maybe it's some personal point of view to citizenship education [yes] </S23>
<S20> [and] like like you know you know it it's too it's like if you find a er like a paper on the floor just take it and throw away it's little things but if you c- er it shows something </S20>
<S23> mhm-hm fine so and now i have to er who is there in corner </S23>
<S29> that's me <SS> <S23> [yes you] </S23> [@@] </SS> [@@] so erm i don't have anything new to say about it so we have heard that it's mainly about rights and responsibilities (xx) person and society and er we speak about content so i think in latvia it's very close to czech but we are not making so many visits to different places (xx) but er we mostly speak about politics and the rules of the democratic society and er also we include a lot of national symbols in the er under this subject </S29>
<S23> sorry i didn't hear er na- national </S23>
<S29> in this case it's latvia <S23> yes </S23> so a lot of national symbols like about the flag and erm so on <S23> yes </S23> erm so also like attaching it to kind of er yeah the cultural identity of of students not only speaking about somebody in society @but like@ <SS> mhm-hm [mhm] </SS> [exactly] in this society and exactly @you@ <S23> mhm-hm mhm </S23> , so it's not much globalisation in in this subject in school in latvia </S29>
<S23> mhm-hm or if you have it maybe you are talking about social education or </S23>
<S29> actually if i translate it it's more like er civil knowledge or something like that , <S23> [mhm] </S23> [the] title of this subject </S29>
<S23> okay yeah fine and please </S23>
<S19> yeah erm i think citizenship education erm includes erm different erm fields of education like social education political education and general education and i think all of that erm citizenship education is knowledge and skills of of the citizens in a country and citizens should erm know about er duties and er participation in their [country] </S19>
<S23> [mhm] mhm-hm , did you think when you were ta- talking about duties and participation er do you think they are going hand in hand </S23>
<S19> er i i don't understand </S19>
<S23> duties <S19> yeah </S19> and <S19> [yeah @yeah@] </S19> [participation] they are really going hand in hand or </S23>
<S19> mhm i i don't know but i er i think that er citizens er have to know how to yeah behave er and it's [like participation] </S19>
<S23> [mhm] mhm mhm-hm fine please </S23>
<S18> erm we already talked about this but erm when i think about citizenship education i think it's erm very important to find out that er it contains special characters just er specific types of er the of each country and of each erm erm society for example history or national symbols or something like that it's very important for me </S18>
<S23> mhm-hm , and did you think something special when you were talking about national sym- symbols </S23>
<S18> @yeah of course@ in germany there are a lot of national symbols throughout er in the history <S23> mhm-hm </S23> yeah </S18>
<P:06>
<S23> i think may i speak once again about football <SS> @@ </SS> @i'm not er@ understanding so much about this but i always try and my family says please don't try but i was so happy to be in germany last summer in ludwigsburg this time it was football and it was really wonderful to see how you have taken your flags and all german people know what i mean <SU> mhm </SU> isn't isn't so and flags and er it was it was really wonderful time and it was <FOREIGN> noh </FOREIGN> it was my only time when i have been somewhere when they are playing football but anyway i think it was really wonderful and i was er trying to drive in car in my friend's car from ludwigsburg to stuttgart this day german won sweden <SS> @@ </SS> but it was <SIC> unpossible </SIC> to be go this way because all people were really so happy and i was thinking can is it okay for me from finland to be so happy for germany should i not be sorry for sweden <SS> @@ </SS> and @it was@ it i think i had here if i can speak once again about me maybe it was some compensation because sweden always wins finns during last seconds in ice hockey <SS> @@ </SS> or so but i think all these feelings they are very interesting okay @now@ er i have been talking twice about football if not <SS> [@@] </SS> [for @third time today@] okay please </S23>
<S17> okay erm i really don't know er what is citizenship education but i think it's er more for (all erm) not only for an for a country <S23> mhm-hm </S23> you know be- because we live er in contact with different cultures in one country can be different cultures and i think we need some rules or how to live together in tolerance <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [because] er each culture have her values its values <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [and we need] like er er common values to <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [live together] i think it's it's [important] </S17>
<S23> [mhm-hm] yes <S17> mhm </S17> and i would like ask you same question <NAME NS9> has er made concerning languages you started we are er we are not only citizens in one country two generations ago people had maybe not thought so it was very important to think now we are members in this country maybe one generations ago too <S17> mhm </S17> and have you thought how is it after two gener- generations where are we citizens after two generations </S23>
<S17> @i don't know@ but i think er , we can be i i think i feel catalan <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [because] i live in catalonia but i also er feel that i'm spanish <S23> mhm-hm </S23> because erm my family come from not not from catalonia from spain but there's people in catalonia that only feel they are catalan <SS> mhm </SS> so maybe we can (xx) that a person can feel from different cultures <S23> mhm </S23> maybe er immigrants or er <NAME NS9> feels jamaican or </S17>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<NS9> [it's similar] </NS9>
<S17> [yeah] yes i think you can feel from <S23> [mhm] </S23> [different] cultures <S23> mhm </S23> that depends on your origins </S17>
<SU> your background yeah </SU>
<S17> yeah your background </S17>
<S23> mhm-hm mhm . and if we er now think that we are now at school and we are teaching students little students pupils they er maybe think you are very young i'm old one but anyway i think we have more similar together than future adults have because they are maybe feeling to be members in very big societies . i don't know <P:05> fine thanks [please] </S23>
<S16> [erm] yeah erm well i <COUGH> also don't really know what's citizenship education because we don't have nothing like this in spain but er i think it would be important to to do something like this i think it's going to to do it some day er because er we need to er have some er common values because er i think in the past our parents had like very er straight values and you have to er raise the children but now er it's like the parents are quite confused and <SU-17> [mhm] </SU-17> [maybe] from the school we should do some i don't know some rules to to live your life and live like all sa- all together but but er as everybody's everybody said but i don't think you we we now do it on schools you know say what's i don't know i think we should er teach them how to think by themselves what's right or wrong but but with some rules that are clear <S23> mhm </S23> and what should be done and what not </S16>
<S23> mhm mhm-hm <P:06> and always we have this same very very important question who has a right to say who has right duty to @say@ who has right [not to say] </S23>
<SU-28> [it's interesting] yeah </SU-28>
<S16> yeah <S23> yeah [mhm] </S23> [yeah] that's what i said <S23> [yeah] </S23> [think] by yourself but erm maybe things that erm er that should be <SIC> teached </SIC> is that er i don't know er yes some values like respect the others like <S23> mhm </S23> some things you you use day by day <S23> [mhm] </S23> [i mean] wh- when someone falls and you have to to help him maybe that er that's a like you you maybe sometimes we think that that's something that erm they may learn at home but now they are not learning this really <S23> mhm yes </S23> yeah a- and those things that er sometimes you see chi- er child er children in the park you know playing and fighting and maybe they said bad words to er to others and you think they should learn that education at home but they are not doing so maybe we should do <S23> [mhm] </S23> [something] with this </S16>
<S23> yes and there are really many confused people <S16> yeah </S16> teachers parents <S16> yeah </S16> and tomorrow when we are listening taina männistö she's talking about consumer citizenship education we are hearing very much i think about these confused things so , next please </S23>
<S21> erm yeah first @i@ i thought erm i i i couldn't im- imagine what was er citi- citizenship education now i i know something from the others and erm yeah there's also a subject called erm social education in germany <S23> mhm-hm </S23> and yeah @er@ where we learn something about er politics and the politic <S23> [mhm] </S23> [er] er the s- the system and erm social socialisation and something like that erm but i didn't like the subject because @@ <S23> mhm-hm </S23> it's er it erm it depends on the teacher and my teacher was erm was really strict because he he only taught us his erm his views about some things and erm yeah like somebody said you have to erm , er you have to think about er you have to yeah for yourself you have to think about er the who are you s- for yourself and not to erm there's not only one right opinion or one er yeah i think we have to learn to erm our pupil erm what's what's right and what's wrong and there's mhm there are some erm some values in the in the country but you have also your own values i [think] </S21>
<S23> [mhm] and have you been thinking many times with is there some difference between polit- mhm political education and party political education <SU> mhm-hm </SU> <S21> erm </S21> i think our students in finland they think many times if we are talking about politics or political education <SU> [mhm-hm] </SU> [they] think maybe it's party party political education but it's different because politics it is to cooperate er to make some common things and always if you are talking about political education you have to tell i'm not brainwashing i'm not indoctrinat- making indoctrination or something like this it's only like somebody was telling you were telling how government works or something like this it's i think such structural things <SU-21> mhm-hm </SU-21> so fine and you </S23>
<S22> yeah i haven't heard much about this education but i also agree with <NAME S21> it's like the german subject <FOREIGN> sozialkunde </FOREIGN> <S23> yeah </S23> and we had it in er er school on the third class or i don't know <S21> seventh </S21> seventh yeah that's a different so it's about how the society works er the institutions the connecting between these <S23> [mhm] </S23> [institutions] i think it's important for the pupils er to know about their environment but i think it's also but should be important for all the people because of the changing system in the new world er education systems and labour systems so it's also necessary to know about your society and labour market or something like that <S23> mhm-hm </S23> and i tried to translate citizenship education in a theor- theoretical way like finnish way because everybody else the finnish people speak about er mobile phones <S23> [mhm] </S23> [so] you can translate [this] </S22>
<S23> [and i] had to show i have it too [@yes@] </S23>
<S22> [because] every mentor shows us <S23> [@yeah@] </S23> [this] er mobile phone so i think this citizenship education is like the knowledge how to use the mobile phone <SS> @@ </SS> <S23> [yes] </S23> [so] everybody has it and there are basics in every er mobile phone er such as the green button to start a conversation <SS> <S23> [@yeah yes@] </S23> [@@] </SS> [so it's] important to know that <S23> yeah </S23> and to talk with other people from the other nations <S23> mhm </S23> so that's my <S23> [mhm-hm] </S23> [opinion] about this <S23> [mhm] </S23> [education] , that's all </S22>
<S23> yes and it's very important </S23>
<S4> erm @i want to come er to the mobile phone@ <S23> [@@] </S23> [@thing because@] erm i told you in belgium i don't use a mobile phone and i er my reason for it is because and i think that's also quite important you can only know the basic skills how to use a mobile phone you have to know what the mobile phone does to your communication with others <S23> [mhm] </S23> [because] you you communicate in a totally different way than without a mobile phone and i think that's something that citizenship education also has to be er has to be directed on on the underlying rules that imply the that that that are coming up when you use like a mobile phone for example [so] </S4>
<S23> [mhm] yes and i think there is very big challenge to use it social correct because if you are sitting in tram here in liisankatu and somebody is coming there and starts to talk now i'm in liisankatu let's see in near by stockmann and maybe he or she i think she is calling this friend three times before she is in stockmann's now here is so much traffic it takes some more minutes to be there and if everybody has to listen it <SS> @@ </SS> and that's why i'm so bored about mobile phones because i'm sitting three hours per day in buses and trams and i have to listen i can't help it @and@ and it's it's not only that i'm so stupid techno- technological it's something else too and i would like to say you something in german i'm sorry i can't say it in english but please german students translate it bertolt brecht has said <FOREIGN> finnen sind das folk das mit zwei sprachen schweigt </FOREIGN> <SS> @@ </SS> <FOREIGN> und ich weiß nicht was schweigen </FOREIGN> </S23>
<S4> mhm to to be [quiet] </S4>
<S14> [silent] </S14>
<S21> yeah </S21>
<S4> to be silent [yeah] </S4>
<SU> [silent] yeah </SU>
<S14> finns are the people who keep silence with two [languages] </S14>
<S23> [yes] [yes] </S23>
<S21> [yeah i] have also heard that </S21>
<S23> and bertolt fine thanks </S23>
<S21> [but why in two] </S21>
<S23> [erm i i] have to write at once yes </S23>
<S21> but why in two languages </S21>
<S23> swedish [and] </S23>
<SU> [finnish] and </SU>
<S21> oh yeah okay [now i understand] </S21>
<S23> [swedish yes] and now we have maybe i repeat myself but i my question is if we are silent with two languages do we really need so many mobile phones <SS> [@@] </SS> [to communicate together] <S4> yeah </S4> i think it's something @what you wanted to talk about our m- mobile culture too@ or . no that's something maybe it's my frustration that i'm so [@bad with mobile phones@] </S23>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S5> yeah the er talking about the mobile phone i was quite frustrated in japan past few days because there in our train we have to turn off or we have to change it to the vibration mode <S23> [mhm] </S23> [or] silent mode in the train and it's like er necessary to do that <S23> [mhm] </S23> [and if] somebody start talking everybody will look at you like this <SS> [@@] </SS> [and then] @i was@ so frustrated because er i i live here and then you er try to get used to @using it everywhere@ even when we i am walking and in a train or in a bath if somebody calls i can talk with finns it's not good sometimes but er <S23> [yeah] </S23> [i can] do that still i can allo- i'm allowed to do that but in japan it's not possible and then i couldn't get contact with my friends so often you know we we called each other so many times and i got a a i got a phone call from a certain person and then i tried to call him and it's again it's somebody else saying you know that person is er er couldn't answer and then until the last @day i couldn't talk@ with my friend <SU-4> mhm </SU-4> so i was quite frustrated but i want to ask you how many of your country erm erm like er have a kind of rules or not quite a strict rules but but to turn off or have to change it into the silent mode in a train or buses <SS> no </SS> no no okay </S5>
<S23> but in <FOREIGN> dänemark </FOREIGN> there are trains or s- some cabins in trains and they are wonderful </S23>
<SS> @@ </SS>
<S5> another interesting thing is that when the the young generations started using the <S23> [yeah yeah] </S23> [mobile phone] older generation er people er complain so much that it is so annoying in the train <S23> [mhm] </S23> [but] these days the older generation is so much annoying because they usually talk much louder <S23> yes yes </S23> and then the younger ones just send a text message <SS> yes yeah mhm </SS> @@ </S5>
<BS25> there's there's no restriction but er in toronto there's no discussion in the metro mhm like throughout the whole metro trip you can't <S23> mhm </S23> get any discussion at @all@ <S23> mhm </S23> so that's really annoying @to me <S23> [@mhm@] </S23> [i used to talk] on the phone@ when i'm taking [the train] </BS25>
<S23> [mhm-hm] , mhm so er who was @first@ </S23>
<S14> @i don't know@ erm yeah i've seen yesterday just a nice thing here in finland because i travelled by train and it was er I-C intercity <S23> [mhm yeah] </S23> [i don't know] train because there was no other and there was er a cabin where was a sign for a mobile phone </S14>
<S23> [oh wonderful mhm-hm] </S23>
<S14> [and so maybe you] you are @supposed to go in this cabin to phone i don't know@ <SS> oh @@ </SS> but i found it nice [i like i like er the silent trains so] </S14>
<S23> [(possibly) yeah yes] fine </S23>
<S13> yeah i wanted to say the same thing like i i went to turku [a few days ago] </S13>
<S14> [(i went there too)] </S14>
<S13> @you too@ <SS> @@ </SS> and in the train you know erm when you want want to go to the toilet they have like this sign and it's red when it's when there's someone using the toilet <S23> mhm </S23> and it's green when you can go and they have the same thing for the mobile phone like they have a room where <SS> [@@] </SS> [you can go when you wanna use] when you wanna call someone and it's red when it's when there's someone in and it's green </S13>
<SS> [@@] </SS>
<S23> [fine yeah yeah] yes and i think it's something people need more and more silence too @mhm@ so and so please you have (xx) instruction you came late and please yes you just you </S23>
<SS> <DISCUSSING ON THE BACKGROUND> </SS>
<S30> erm well i i don't (xx) about <SS> [shh] </SS> [citizen-] -ship [education here] </S30>
<S23> [please start now] </S23>
<S30> but erm <S23> please yes </S23> i think probably my my direction is a bit different from from everybody's as an immigrant if you move to finland you have er just take er citizenship courses <S23> mhm-hm </S23> in which how to integrate (xx) how to integrate into finnish society you learn the finnish law you learn the finnish custom and and <S23> [mhm] </S23> [and] and that's what i think about the finni- citizenship education </S30>
<S23> mhm <S30> [mhm] </S30> [and] please can you tell more and how do you feel these integration courses </S23>
<S30> erm i i was not in how say it because i came quite long time ago <S23> yes </S23> at that time i think finnish government doesn't have this policy </S30>
<S23> yeah <S30> [but] </S30> [it's] some years old </S23>
<S30> yeah i think it's just only couple of years' time and every immigrant if they move to finland not because of er studying but because of er not not not for the ei- for the refugees either but for example if your partner is a finn or is a finnish citizen so you move to here then you have to join a two years' or three years' programme how to become a finn <SS> [mhm] </SS> [or how] yeah or how you whether you are successfully integrated to the finnish society and they're constantly or someone's checking your progress and see what you have done possible language courses and then do you did you take any erm erm how say it courses which just have a special skill something like that <S23> mhm-hm </S23> yeah <S23> mhm </S23> then after two years they will see whether you are failure or you are success <SS> [@@ mhm] </SS> [yeah and] (often it's) it's very hard to apply for a citizenship in this country also if you are married and wait for four years then you have to wait at least then allow to allow to apply if you are not divorced with the finnish person <S23> mhm </S23> if you're divorced you will be deported from this country <SS> [mhm @@] </SS> [(if you don't have any jobs) yeah they will] they will terminate your contract er your your your visa yeah that's not to say of course there's there's there's a how say it there's a flexibility well it it has a lot of (xx) if you are you come here as a worker you have to work for six years <SIC> continsuouly </SIC> continuously then you're allowed to apply for the finnish nationality plus two to three years in order to get a passport then if you're not university graduate then you have to prove your finnish is finnish language erm as good as a finn's when they apply for a finnish government jobs they have the same test <SS> @@ </SS> to see how their finnish standard is <S23> [mhm] </S23> [yeah] so i would li- these are very delicate questions for for me i don't have a problem because i i went through the university so i have the enough credits for it but for many people they have to have a test in order to have <S23> [mhm] </S23> [their citizenships] then i think it's very hard for them especially when you see finland need lots of workers they they want workers but not for professional well of course they need professional but mostly they need cleaners they lee- they need nurses some- something you don't need really high highly skilled <S23> mhm </S23> l- labour and i believe that it's very harsh for these kind of people if you move to finland <S23> mhm </S23> they can never ever have a finnish nationality <S23> mhm-hm </S23> yeah </S30>
<S4> mhm </S4>
<S23> they are such very interesting controversial @issues for <S30> [mhm] </S30> [<NAME S31>] and me@ and for all of us to hear fine , you have given very very good end to the <SIC> defitions </SIC> definitions and i think we are coming back to this today we have learnt very much anyway i have learnt very much and i have written some sentences like what what you have been talking about and <SIGH> and how to (xx) more just a minute in my papers . no it's my (xx) <PREPARING OVERHEAD PROJECTOR, P:06> i just er show something <P:15> no i have to read it <SS> [@@] </SS> [@i i@] or here are (xx) so anyway i'm , erm next week some day we are talking more about some special issues in er citizenship education we are talking a little about media education and tolerance education you have been talking here something about both too and er er some models of citizenship education are we taking some point of view is it s- sci- scient- scientific or critical or post-modern views of knowledge and we are talking something about this and @okay@ . people say my writing is not so good <SS> [@@] </SS> [@i have to agree@] okay now of course active and minimalist orientations er but i can write it better for next week and er s- we were talking about community community orientated and individualistic relationships to society and you can see you have been talking about all this too , and rights and responsibilities you have been talking about this too and public-private behaviour and er inclus- inclusive and exclusive <P:05> world-views and local and global dimensions and they are some phatic models which are very very important in citizenship education and you have noticed you have picked up all these very important issues but let's come later to this and i hope we get next week jari kivistö here to talk about global education but next week programme is a little open anyway we'll see always in this room is it not is it okay it's quite little but it's quite diff- difficult to find bigger one now we have our home class <SS> [@@] </SS> [@okay@] and we can open doors and so somebody's opening the @door@ okay and but for before next week so you have seen <NAME S5> and <NAME NS9> have helped me to carry some books so these students who need credits credits credits they have pleasure to work with these books and this and all students have right and duty to work for next week with some booklets and now i will show give you borrow you these booklets , they are not for next week </S23>
<S1> no two two [weeks] </S1>
<S23> [two] yes <S1> [@mhm@] </S1> [sorry] yes , and er i have here very many different booklets and you can choose so you can work alone or together and er you can choose here some booklets and now i hope that i know better how to spend our time so that one time there are not 10 works and sometimes there are only few works but so <SIGH> i finish now but i give your you this and you can choose which you can take for , not next week but week after next week and i don't know which day because i don't know are we getting jari <NAME S1> </S23>
<S1> what shall we do with this booklet @@ </S1>
<S23> sorry </S23>
<S1> what shall we do with these booklets [we read them and then] </S1>
<S23> [yes then] now first you have to think are you working together or are you working alone and you can choose and so let's think everybody has about half an hour to tell what you have get <S1> [okay] </S1> [what] from this <S4> mhm </S4> and they are such they are not into these numbers only to make presentation </S23>
<S1> only [to prepare the] </S1>
<S23> [and have] discussion and to learn very much about this and they are pre- here are citizenship education for all for preschool secondary school and er . how to er arrange some courses pros professionals so you can take here maybe maybe it's better that we are finishing now and you can have a look here what you would like to take take and for these students who would like to get some credits , 100 100 pages erm some of these books there are (xx) there are some other books but mhm yes </S23>
